Re: [h-cost] Construction Thoughts on Surcoat/Outergown?
Saragrace Knauf wrote: Hi again, I got such good suggestions on the bum roll, I thought I'd solicit some more ideas on the construction of the surcoat or outer gown (OG) on this outfit. http://saragrace.us/html/A1_GoldenAgeDressDiary_PAMPics.html My quandaries with this OG are this. 1.) Is that a collar lying on her shoulder? This is best seen in the first picture in the second row. I honestly can't tell from that pic. :( There's two versions of an overgown/surcoat in one of Janet Arnold's books. Margo's Historic Patterns offers a comfort gown pattern. Mantua Maker has a Spanish loose gown. Reconstructing History offers both a loose gown and a kirtle gown pattern. And I'm pretty sure Alcega had more than one version. Any of those should give you an idea of cut and construction. Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Construction Thoughts on Surcoat/Outergown?
Saragrace Knauf wrote: more ideas on the construction of the surcoat or outer gown (OG) on this outfit. http://saragrace.us/html/A1_GoldenAgeDressDiary_PAMPics.html My quandaries with this OG are this. 1.) Is that a collar lying on her shoulder? This is best seen in the first picture in the second row. My two cents CDN? I don't think this type of coat would have a falling band stlye of collar. I am of the belief that it would have a high 'half' collar, that would be full height in the back and disapear towards the front, to allow lacing of the ruff, or supportasse for a falling band collar of linen. I have yet to see a falling band collar made of the same fabric as the garment, but I am open to being proven wrong on this one. Both Norah Waugh's Cut of Women's Clothes and Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion have this type of surcoat pattern in them, from original garments...I would go with those two references first and foremost, beyond going and looking at the garments yourself. I'll be cutting one of these soon for myself, I'd love to see finished garment pics of yours when you are done! Kelly ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Construction Thoughts on Surcoat/Outergown?
I'm familiar with the common resources on the standard 16th century surcoat/loose gown constructions and this isn't quite like that. It could even be called a Schaube - note that it has it's own sleeves, not the very common large draping ones. Algacea has a mourning gown that is similar in that it has a full back like this -it looks very much like a sack dress when made up, -it laces up under the 'sack' but has a full false front. It may even be less of a construction as a treatment discussion. I am trying to avoid giving any of my opinions on how it was made because I didn't want to influence any free thoughts. I've not seen very many other paintings where the sitter is actually standing such that you can see the way the gown drapes in back. If anyone has seen any paintings where the backs of such a gown can be seen - I'd sure like to see them. There are many pictures in this period of a black over gown which fits tightly all the way around. Thank you for your thougts. Sg - Original Message - From: Dawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 9:46 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Construction Thoughts on Surcoat/Outergown? There's two versions of an overgown/surcoat in one of Janet Arnold's books. Margo's Historic Patterns offers a comfort gown pattern. Mantua Maker has a Spanish loose gown. Reconstructing History offers both a loose gown and a kirtle gown pattern. And I'm pretty sure Alcega had more than one version. Any of those should give you an idea of cut and construction. Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Construction Thoughts on Surcoat/Outergown?
Saragrace Knauf wrote: http://saragrace.us/html/A1_GoldenAgeDressDiary_PAMPics.html 1.) Is that a collar lying on her shoulder? This is best seen in the first picture in the second row. I believe so, yes-- I think it's probably cut with a raised neckline at the front and a half collar band at the back. Sorry, I realise that's not a very illuminating explanation-- I think Janet Arnold has a good description and pics, though. 2.) How is the front of the OG made to lie so snuggly against her torso? (in the second and third pictures you can see a little gap between the coat and the bodice.) Possibly a combination of pins and artistic license... 3.) How does it transition from the close fit in front to the all the extra fabric in back? 4.) What would it look like in back? You can see extra fabric sweeping away from the shoulder/nape - is it constructed like a sack gown? I believe it's done by pleating the back fabric. I'm afraid I don't have any resources for this at hand, but I think there may be examples of both a yoke section with pleated fabric below, and of the fullness of the back simply pleated and stitched flat over the shoulder area. -- Adele de Maisieres - Habeo metrum - musicamque, hominem meam. Expectat alium quid? -Georgeus Gershwinus - ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] construction ?
Thanks--the Mickey Mouse remark was in an e-mail I had skipped over. I reacted that fast because when I directed and costumed The Rivals, my Lydia Languish wore her lover's miniature on a chain around her neck and tucked into the bosom of her gown (in one scene she takes it off and throws it at said lover, with appropriate remarks)--and when I saw the miniature on this lady's wrist I thought, Dang, that would have looked cool on Lydia! By the way, I'm so glad both of these portraits were posted. They look like kind people and a very happy couple, don't they? --Ruth Anne On Dec 14, 2006, at 12:13 AM, otsisto wrote: Someone mentioned that they knew they were tired when they thought the portrait bracelet was a Mickey Mouse watch. De -Original Message- Watch? Isn't that a miniature (portrait)? --Ruth Anne -Original Message- They're Swiss, so the watch humor was even more humorous to me. :) Thank you, De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] construction ?
Both have personality. His is laid back with a twinkle of mischief. De -Original Message- By the way, I'm so glad both of these portraits were posted. They look like kind people and a very happy couple, don't they? --Ruth Anne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] construction ?
Had a quick peek- looks like the blue front is a wide ribbon tracing an ascending figure 8 path, with a bit of ease to make it look puffy, or maybe it is lightly stuffed after/as it is sewn down? Mostly a guess on my part- this dress is _so_ not my period. HTH, Betsy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Susan B. Farmer Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 10:34 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] construction ? Quoting otsisto [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Anyone have an idea as to how the blue on the plastron is constructed? Is it a section on material that has a wee bit of gather in the center and clipped on the sides? http://sunsite.icm.edu.pl/cjackson/l/p-liotard2.htm You know it's *really* late when you look at that painting and the *first* thought that goes through your brain is, Oh, look. She's wearing a Mickey Mouse Watch . *blink* going to bed now. susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] construction ?
It looks to me like a stomacher, with the blue ribbon as an applied decoration. The ribbon is not functional. The gown closes by pinning it to the stomacher, and the ruching would hide the pins nicely. So to construct it, make a stomacher and noodle around with the ribbon until it looks nice. I've seen stomachers with ribbon applied criss-cross (faux lacing), and this just looks like a much fatter ribbon being used. -Carol Anyone have an idea as to how the blue on the plastron is constructed? Is it a section on material that has a wee bit of gather in the center and clipped on the sides? http://sunsite.icm.edu.pl/cjackson/l/p-liotard2.htm De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] construction ?
Hi I think its just the ribbon wich has ben cut to pieces, then the ends is turned back and its stitched in the middle of the ribbon to the stomacher. Interresting with that blue collour! Bjarne - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 7:12 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] construction ? It looks to me like a stomacher, with the blue ribbon as an applied decoration. The ribbon is not functional. The gown closes by pinning it to the stomacher, and the ruching would hide the pins nicely. So to construct it, make a stomacher and noodle around with the ribbon until it looks nice. I've seen stomachers with ribbon applied criss-cross (faux lacing), and this just looks like a much fatter ribbon being used. -Carol Anyone have an idea as to how the blue on the plastron is constructed? Is it a section on material that has a wee bit of gather in the center and clipped on the sides? http://sunsite.icm.edu.pl/cjackson/l/p-liotard2.htm De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] construction ?
Thank you, everyone. I had a brain [EMAIL PROTECTED] and said plastron and not stomacher. :P I think the ribbon in figure eights is what it probably is. Bjarne, here is a painting of the woman's husband in the same blue. http://sunsite.icm.edu.pl/cjackson/l/p-liotard3.htm They're Swiss, so the watch humor was even more humorous to me. :) Thank you, De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] construction ?
Hi again, His shirt buttons are even more interresting to me. Its dorset buttons ( linnen thread buttons). Wich i have on mine two. Could this collour be a trick for the pastel collours. Its just the same blue as the wifes, and its a very vivid blue. Bjarne - Original Message - From: otsisto [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 6:28 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] construction ? Thank you, everyone. I had a brain [EMAIL PROTECTED] and said plastron and not stomacher. :P I think the ribbon in figure eights is what it probably is. Bjarne, here is a painting of the woman's husband in the same blue. http://sunsite.icm.edu.pl/cjackson/l/p-liotard3.htm They're Swiss, so the watch humor was even more humorous to me. :) Thank you, De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] construction ?
Watch? Isn't that a miniature (portrait)? --Ruth Anne -Original Message- From: otsisto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Dec 13, 2006 12:28 PM To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [h-cost] construction ? Thank you, everyone. I had a brain [EMAIL PROTECTED] and said plastron and not stomacher. :P I think the ribbon in figure eights is what it probably is. Bjarne, here is a painting of the woman's husband in the same blue. http://sunsite.icm.edu.pl/cjackson/l/p-liotard3.htm They're Swiss, so the watch humor was even more humorous to me. :) Thank you, De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] construction ?
Someone mentioned that they knew they were tired when they thought the portrait bracelet was a Mickey Mouse watch. De -Original Message- Watch? Isn't that a miniature (portrait)? --Ruth Anne -Original Message- They're Swiss, so the watch humor was even more humorous to me. :) Thank you, De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] construction ?
The period is just a passing interest so I don't know much about it but I think I have seen this bright of blue in either an embroidery piece or a piece of material from roughly that period but I can't remember where or when. I have been focusing on ceramics of late and when searching the web I come across these sort of things and file them in my mind. I am planning on modifying Simplicity 4092, the gold dress A. I periodically look for ideas for the stomacher area and liked the blue design in the picture. De -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bjarne og Leif Drews Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 1:18 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] construction ? Hi again, His shirt buttons are even more interresting to me. Its dorset buttons ( linnen thread buttons). Wich i have on mine two. Could this collour be a trick for the pastel collours. Its just the same blue as the wifes, and its a very vivid blue. Bjarne - Original Message - From: otsisto [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 6:28 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] construction ? Thank you, everyone. I had a brain [EMAIL PROTECTED] and said plastron and not stomacher. :P I think the ribbon in figure eights is what it probably is. Bjarne, here is a painting of the woman's husband in the same blue. http://sunsite.icm.edu.pl/cjackson/l/p-liotard3.htm They're Swiss, so the watch humor was even more humorous to me. :) Thank you, De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] construction ?
Quoting otsisto [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Anyone have an idea as to how the blue on the plastron is constructed? Is it a section on material that has a wee bit of gather in the center and clipped on the sides? http://sunsite.icm.edu.pl/cjackson/l/p-liotard2.htm You know it's *really* late when you look at that painting and the *first* thought that goes through your brain is, Oh, look. She's wearing a Mickey Mouse Watch . *blink* going to bed now. susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] construction ?
It looks similar to the lacing of a Venetian costume of earlier period. The ribbon would have been silk during this period. SO... I think it looks like a wide silk ribbon has been woven through some kind of small loop, then folded back over it to the other side. The width of the ribbon seems to be wide at the turn then narrow where it comes to the side, then wider back across. Just a guess but it looks like that to me. Very similar to how silk roses are folded. Sincerely, Rebecca Rautine From: Susan B. Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [h-cost] construction ? Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 23:34:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from www1.indra.com ([209.169.0.7]) by bay0-mc6-f17.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2444); Tue, 12 Dec 2006 20:35:19 -0800 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1])by www1.indra.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id kBD4YNvP074252(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK);Tue, 12 Dec 2006 21:34:24 -0700 (MST)(envelope-from [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])by net.indra.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id kBD4YCSM068735;Tue, 12 Dec 2006 21:34:15 -0700 (MST)(envelope-from [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Received: from audi.websitewelcome.com (88.d2.1343.static.theplanet.com[67.19.210.136])by net.indra.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id kBD4Y7pC068664(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT)for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 12 Dec 2006 21:34:11 -0700 (MST)(envelope-from [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Received: from cpanel by audi.websitewelcome.com with local (Exim 4.52)id 1GuLon-0001EK-U7; Tue, 12 Dec 2006 22:34:09 -0600 Received: from 65.13.105.239 ([65.13.105.239]) by www.goldsword.com (HordeMIME library) with HTTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2006 23:34:09 -0500 X-Message-Info: txF49lGdW43OLNgW/qhd6pCQAbk/e6+iWWSOdmmmYwM= References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.1.3) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse,please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - audi.websitewelcome.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - indra.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [32001 32003] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - goldsword.com X-Source: /usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/bin/php X-Source-Args: /usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/bin/php/usr/local/cpanel/base/horde/imp/compose.php X-Source-Dir: :/base/horde/imp X-DCC-indra.com-Metrics: net.indra.com 1044; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Historical Costume h-costume.mail.indra.com List-Unsubscribe: http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume,mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] List-Archive: http://net.indra.com/pipermail/h-costume List-Post: mailto:h-costume@mail.indra.com List-Help: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] List-Subscribe: http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume,mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Dec 2006 04:35:19.0980 (UTC) FILETIME=[1883A6C0:01C71E70] Quoting otsisto [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Anyone have an idea as to how the blue on the plastron is constructed? Is it a section on material that has a wee bit of gather in the center and clipped on the sides? http://sunsite.icm.edu.pl/cjackson/l/p-liotard2.htm You know it's *really* late when you look at that painting and the *first* thought that goes through your brain is, Oh, look. She's wearing a Mickey Mouse Watch . *blink* going to bed now. susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _ MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. Get expert picks by style, age, and price. Try it! http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId=8000,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200601tcode=wlmtagline ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
