Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
Because you bring up specific points in your rebuttal, I feel the need to address some the ones I perceive as misconceptions so those following can understand my thoughts. Until we all understand where each of us is coming from, we will never begin to truly discuss the issue. However, since we have essential taken over this thread, I feel we should take this into private emails - or create a separate thread so the original one can remain to its intent regarding books for the courses Kate is looking at teaching. On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 11:53 PM, Lavolta Press f...@lavoltapress.comwrote: I don't think that's true. I've been on a number of e-groups related to sewing and pattern making, that include people with a wide variety of backgrounds. I don't see them refusing to talk to or help each other, at all. Not to argue, but I think that's a biased view-point. If they are on the list-serve already then they are already haring their knowledge. But is that a good portion of the whole or just a select few oddballs? I personally don't know any statistics but from what others have said and what I've seen, it's more the few oddballs than majority. Without actual statistics, it's only an educated guess. It really comes down to thesame basic steps that both sides follow, with slight changes in the order and importance each side places on those steps. No, it doesn't. There are very distinct differences in procedures, and even techniques, depending on whether you are making clothes for yourself, or custom making them for others, or making them for theatrical productions, or for a ready-to-wear business. For that matter, whether you are making modern clothes or historic ones. I'm talking about the basic core steps, which do transcend all the various options (making clothes for oneself, making theatrical costumes, RTW, historical, modern, etc.). I'll try to break it down and keep it simple so hopefully you can understand my thought process. - The client is established. It might be for oneself, the client might request a custom-made garment, the costumer determines a costume needs made, or a company's sample is ordered t market. Regardless, there is always a client before the garment is made. - Next, everyone develops the design. That design is often based on research as well as the desires of the client. -Once the design is finalized, everyone moves onto the pattern. Some draft it, some drape it, or use purchased patterns - but everyone uses a pattern. - The pattern is fit to the client. Some use samples/muslins, some fit before making the finished garment, some fit during construction, and often it takes a couple fittings. Some go back and correct the pattern before moving on. - The materials for the project are sourced. Some do this before the design, some before the pattern is made, some after the pattern - but at some point everyone sources materials. - The sewing process has to be established. Some is by instinct and common sense, some use the instructions with the purchased pattern, some use advice of others. But we all use similar steps in assembling garments. - The garment is sewn. This is the most obvious commonality because otherwise we don't have an end product. Some do it all themselves, some do it by hand, some use machines, some use assembly lines - but it is always sewn together. -Lastly, the garment is approved by the client and then belongs o the client. If not, the issues are fixed. After approval it does separate on whether the client simply wear their own work, the theater company uses it for their run, the client purchases - but in the end the client get the garment. The important thing to remember is that while we all use these core steps, the order they are used in and the the specific methods for each step do vary. We are all in the garment field, but our specific focuses DO vary. It they didn't, then we'd only need one degree program that would be the all-encompassing course of knowledge. We wouldn't need all the books and resources out there that are specialized to certain steps or methods. Because we have different focuses, different methods, and different clients, each segment of the field is unique and variations exist. But we mustn't ignore the commonalities that tie us together. I wasn't really seeing any problems with the ways the courses I took were set up. The thing is, there were basic dressmaking courses and advanced ones, and the instructors managed to accommodate students with a variety of goals. Then there were separate courses in flat pattern work, and in draping, and in grading patterns, and in merchandising. But: No one had to take any of these courses, other than dressmaking being required before taking pattern-making courses. No one who thought grading, or draping, or fashion illustration, or whatever would be useless for their purposes had to take that course. No one had to be a garment design and merchandising major to take
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
Not to argue, but I think that's a biased view-point. If they are on the list-serve already then they are already haring their knowledge. But is that a good portion of the whole or just a select few oddballs? I personally don't know any statistics but from what others have said and what I've seen, it's more the few oddballs than majority. Without actual statistics, it's only an educated guess. Do we need statistics? We are on a list-serve. People are sharing their knowledge here. I personally have not found people to be at all unwilling to share information. Your mileage may vary. Can we get back to historical costuming now? There are people on this list who hold different views on things like, whether a given garment is totally authentic for a given wearer in a given period--and whether it even matters if the person wearing the garment is not a historical interpreter. I personally think that holding a different view is not a misconception. The point, however, is that everyone on this list already knows the basic steps of producing garments for their purposes. They do not need you to lecture them about it. You're not addressing a roomful of clueless newbies to whom you can dispense your wisdom about how the garment industry works--even though you're not working in it and just repeating what you heard on another forum. Fran Lavolta Press www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 1:51 PM, Lavolta Press f...@lavoltapress.comwrote: Can we get back to historical costuming now? That's what I've been trying to do! The point, however, is that everyone on this list already knows the basic steps of producing garments for their purposes. They do not need you to lecture them about it. You're not addressing a roomful of clueless newbies to whom you can dispense your wisdom about how the garment industry works--even though you're not working in it and just repeating what you heard on another forum. Then please don't patronize me the same way you claim I am. And I am working in the industry, not just repeating what I have been told. Yet I also am a costume designer and am knowledgable in those skills. And I do custom, period garments. Am I an expert? No, but I never claimed I am either. There are people on this list who hold different views on things like, whether a given garment is totally authentic for a given wearer in a given period--and whether it even matters if the person wearing the garment is not a historical interpreter. I personally think that holding a different view is not a misconception. I think that's a wonderful topic for discussion. Perhaps a new thread? Here are some questions that I've pondered. - Where do we draw the line between what is acceptable as historically accurate vs historically authentic? - With modern sewing skills and fads (such as zippers), where do we encorporate those skills to aid in construction of period garments, or do we insist on using the period methods? Michael. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
I think that's a wonderful topic for discussion. Perhaps a new thread? Here are some questions that I've pondered. - Where do we draw the line between what is acceptable as historically accurate vs historically authentic? - With modern sewing skills and fads (such as zippers), where do we encorporate those skills to aid in construction of period garments, or do we insist on using the period methods? Yeah, well, when this list started some years ago, the authenticity flame wars were scorching all our monitors. We've now achieved a live-and-let live attitude for which I am grateful. List members have recognized they do not all have identical goals, schedules, budgets, or issues like whether they can hand sew everything anyway because they have carpal tunnel. But at least, it's not historic costuming and not the modern ready-to-wear industry. I'll leave you guys to it, since I have a big wad of end-of-the-week book orders to fill. Fran Lavolta Press Books of historic clothing patterns www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
Sorry, I meant, at least it IS historic costuming. Fran But at least, it's not historic costuming and not the modern ready-to-wear industry. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Authenticity
- Where do we draw the line between what is acceptable as historically accurate vs historically authentic? - With modern sewing skills and fads (such as zippers), where do we encorporate those skills to aid in construction of period garments, or do we insist on using the period methods? Historic activities run the gamut from immersion reenactment to a town's history days event, with different expectations and requirements for different events. Sometimes someone will ask a discussion list if something is OK, when really that decision is up to the event organizers or the leadership of a particular group. Where you draw the line is different than where I would draw it, and it could even be different for the garments in the same outfit. Absolute authenticity is a moving target, because the more we know, the more details there are that are harder t0 reach. That leads into the next question — where to substitute modern skills. When more labor-intensive methods are used, for example hand stitching, custom weaving, hand-knitting and the like, the potential for clients gets smaller. Some of these methods become a labor of love, a desire to learn a technique for its own sake. All costume, including the broader sense that all clothing is costume, is a deliberate effort to communicate something to the rest of the world. Appearance is important, the outermost layer. Some groups have the standard of hand stitching for visible seams, but machine sewn is ok for interior construction — for eras before the sewing machine was around. Underpinnings do make a difference in how the costume looks from the outside, but how much does it matter that the corset looks right, as long as it gives the right shaping. But once you have a reason to show the corset, its appearance becomes more important. Beyond that, as above, it starts to depend on personal interest in a particular technique or a desire to learn the techniques of a particular era. -Carol ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Looking for more information on a portrait of Henry VIII
I couldn't remember the details of the original so I had a quick google and found it on this page http://www.luminarium.org/renlit/henry8face3.htm - unknown artist, copyright Christie's images. It is definitely less decorated than most versions (there are LOTS of copies of this portrait!) and the doublet seems a different shape - there's no belt or shaping at the waist, in fact it's really unclear what happens below his hands, and the big double edging up the front looks a bit odd. It makes me wonder if this is actually a late copy by someone who didn't really understand the clothing of the time? And compared to all the others, that silk looks more rich merchant than kingly, to my eye. But you could always take that as inspiration, and use the other versions for the shape. Jean On 11/03/2011 02:06, Elizabeth Walpole wrote: Hi everyone, I was looking at portraits of Henry VIII today and found this portrait I hadn't seen before http://www.flickr.com/photos/60861613@N00/3711035063/sizes/o/in/set-72157617185980487/ It looks to be a copy of the famous Holbein portrait but with very little decoration (as my embroidery skills are not up to much it seems much more feasible) So, my question is does anybody know of a larger version of this image or more details (e.g. artist or collection) so I can narrow my search. Thanks Elizabeth ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
