[Haifux] Disappointing Linux Day
I would like, on behalf of myself and Maya, to express my disappointment in the Linux Day we had yesterday. Adir, while you did take leadership of the project, I feel dissatisfied with the way things worked out. The most basic necessities for an installfest were unavailable. Power bricks were in short supply, and there was no network available. There was not even a proper screen on which to project a demonstration. Without these, I feel, there's no point of having the linux day at all, A second, very important part, was the choice of distribution. The majority's vote was for Ubuntu - a distribution that I myself, as well as other Haifux participants, have been using and thoroughly testing (for user-friendliness, stability, support, etc.) for a very long time - two years, in my case. However, the distribution which was chosen was OpenSuSE (which was recommended only by Adir). Only one installation was accomplished, despite our best efforts - and this with a DVD which seems to have been burnt properly (because it installed properly on Adir's laptop). From chats I had with some of the arrivers, this is a known issue with SuSE. Furthermore, for people without DVD drives (and such people did arrive, and we must recall that most people are inclined to install Linux rather on their older machines), SuSE has an inordinate 5-6 CDs, which weren't even made available. Almost all installations which were performed yesterday ended up being Ubuntu, from makeshift burnt CDs (all installs but one were flawless, BTW, and that one had a severely damaged hard drive) However, the most important part which was missing was advertising. Everyone but the organizers shared this complaint: They found out about it too late (if they had found out earlier, they would have brought their machines). This is particularily peculiar, seeing as the Yes sponsorship was intended to fix exactly this recurring, well-known problem. I hope to see better solutions for these problems for the next Linux Day. -- To necessity... and beyond! Ohad Lutzky -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Haifux] Disappointing Linux Day
The linux day should not be about installing linux anymore. Installing linux is trivial, and anyone with a basic background in computers can manage this on her own. The problem most people have is with configuration. The #1 problem is connecting to the Internet, a problem unsolved at all in the linux day in its current format. The next slew of problems all need internet access to be fixed. My suggestion is to have a linux configuration day instead. Get Bezeq and Hot to supply several (2-3 each) lines with ADSL/Cable connections for the party. Ask people to bring their modems with them. Get Bezeq to sell linux-compatible routers and network cards AT THE PARTY. Prepare CDs with drivers for all ADSL and cable modems in circulation and cable scripts for most ISPs (especially Bezeqint, Netvison, Actcom, and Technion). Have additional stands with working internet connections for other configurations and have gurus do the configurations quickly. About the advertising issue, the linux day must be part of a greater advertising campaign to increase awareness. It must be planned months ahead of time, and the date MUST NOT BE CHANGED close to the event. If the set date must be changed due to extreme circumstances, the event should be cancelled and rescheduled several months later, as all the advertisment and publicity should restart with the new date. A3 posters inside the technion is not enough. We should get Haifa city sponsorship on city billboards. We should make sure the event appears in major media (at least newspapers, preferably TV). To have that we must have a gimmick. This year we had one (yes), but the person in charge was to incompotent to exploit this. If we want to have a successful linux day, we should start advertising when the yes show airs. Even though its not that high rating, it is a much wider audience that we can hope for. We need to make a buzz about linux and we need to concetrate it around a specific date. We need to answer all newbie questions in forums or in person with come to the linux day on We need community awareness. Alon -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 GPG public key at http://8ln.org/pubkey.txt Key fingerprint = A670 6C81 19D3 3773 3627 DE14 B44A 50A3 FE06 7F24 -- -=[ Random Fortune ]=- Time-sharing is the junk-mail part of the computer business. -- H. R. J. Grosch (attributed) -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Haifux] Disappointing Linux Day
Alon Altman wrote: The linux day should not be about installing linux anymore. Installing linux is trivial, and anyone with a basic background in computers can manage this on her own. The problem most people have is with configuration. The #1 problem is connecting to the Internet, a problem unsolved at all in the linux day in its current format. The next slew of problems all need internet access to be fixed. My suggestion is to have a linux configuration day instead. i remember four years ago when i decided to install linux and i had very little experience with computers in general but still managed to install it by myself (any one with a brain can do it ) but it took me one whole year from the point i connected to hot cables until i managed to configure pppd and had to suffer using windows for all that time so i agree : install party -very stupid , configuration party-great idea and all that mambo jambo about choosing one distribution sucks too the point of having different distributions is that every one should choose for himself what suite him not some group choosing a distribution for all the others (yes), but the person in charge was to incompotent to exploit this. why should someone be in charge of anything ? it should be a community effort -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Haifux] Disappointing Linux Day
On 6/25/06, Alon Altman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The linux day should not be about installing linux anymore. Installing linux is trivial, and anyone with a basic background in computers can manage this on her own. I do not completely agree here. Installation help is important for the simple reason of the fear factor. People want their helping hand. However, I totally agree that the format of the linux day should be extended. The problem most people have is with configuration. The #1 problem is connecting to the Internet, a problem unsolved at all in the linux day in its current format. The next slew of problems all need internet access to be fixed. I want to emphasize that this should not be the limitation - all sorts of problems, hardware, software and networking alike, can be solved. The following three forms of problems should be incorporated: * Known-in-advance, massive (e.g. a known fix for USB ADSL modems) * Planned ahead (person mails in about a problem he would like personal assistance with) * On-the-spot (person comes in with a problem, we do our best to help) This actually DID happen... we just didn't announce it as such, and didn't put enough emphasis on it. Get Bezeq and Hot to supply several (2-3 each) lines with ADSL/Cable connections for the party. Ask people to bring their modems with them. Get Bezeq to sell linux-compatible routers and network cards AT THE PARTY. Prepare CDs with drivers for all ADSL and cable modems in circulation and cable scripts for most ISPs (especially Bezeqint, Netvison, Actcom, and Technion). Have additional stands with working internet connections for other configurations and have gurus do the configurations quickly. Hell yeah. I would like to add another related issue: Wifi. Have a hotspot around, for both general-purpose usage and testing. Preferably, have an additional, encrypted one around, for testing that capability. About the advertising issue, the linux day must be part of a greater advertising campaign to increase awareness. It must be planned months ahead of time, and the date MUST NOT BE CHANGED close to the event. If the set date must be changed due to extreme circumstances, the event should be cancelled and rescheduled several months later, as all the advertisment and publicity should restart with the new date. Definetely. I attribute much of the failure of this linux day to the rushed advertising which was caused by the delay. If we are already on the subject of format changes, I have another suggestion: The delightful delicacies, fortune cookies of information, tidbits of geekly pleasure we have all come to know and love as LIGHTNING TALKS. Topics should be SIL, but lectures should be short (under 30min, preferably actual lightning talk 5min). We should recall that we are in the technion, and not pull back from giving (extremely!) relevant lectures - ps/pdf conversion, where to get basic development tools (build-essential, essentially), perhaps a primer on LyX. This is not to say that more popular subjects should be avoided - lectures on usage of wifi (with network-manager, preferably), The Gimp, Thunderbird, etc., would be welcome. But don't let me do all of the lectures... I had some much-appreciated help in the history lecture, and I do think it's more interesting for people to hear from multiple speakers. A strong point I would like to emphasize is that this shouldn't be a noob-only event, as this one was. It should cater to intermediate, and perhaps even advanced users. I do believe we can do this without hurting the novice users, seeing as we bring them up to speed rather quickly. -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Haifux] IBM Tech Briefing on Open Source - June 28 - reminder
Dear all, This is a reminder of a Technical Briefing to be held by IBM THIS WEDNESDAY (June 28) in the CS faculty. The subject of this briefing is Open Source Development Tools, and will be given by specialists from the USA. http://www.cs.technion.ac.il/~gotsman/IBM-Tech-Briefing-Open-Source.pdf All are welcome to attend. REGISTRATION IS REQUIRED BY EMAIL TO [EMAIL PROTECTED] Chaim Gotsman CS IAP coordinator -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Haifux] Disappointing Linux Day
just for the record i would like to oppose this drawing of knives whitch is taking place.
Re: [Haifux] Disappointing Linux Day
On Sun, 25 Jun 2006, boazg wrote: I would like, on behalf of myself and Maya, to express my disappointment in the Linux Day we had yesterday. Adir, while you did take leadership of the project, I feel dissatisfied with the way things worked out. I was also dissatisfied from the amount of people who wanted to help, and the amount of help that was suggested, and the fact that I took most of the work (physically and financially) on my own bare hands. The most basic necessities for an installfest were unavailable. Power bricks were in short supply, and there was no network available. There was not even a proper screen on which to project a demonstration. Without these, I feel, there's no point of having the linux day at all, The monitors, keyboards and mice were the donation of the CS department. the power bricks arrived from Asat. I took care of whatever I could. A second, very important part, was the choice of distribution. The majority's vote was for Ubuntu - a distribution that I myself, as well as other Haifux participants, have been using and thoroughly testing (for user-friendliness, stability, support, etc.) for a very long time - two years, in my case. I'm sorry to tell you that I did my own tests, and no distribution's decision is finite. In your case, however, you go with Ubuntu since v1. This is your own blind decision. I'm glad that you achieved a 2 years experience(!) with Ubuntu. Happy for you. If you ever want to do an Ubuntu Linux Party, you go and do it. You have no right to complain here. You didn't like the decision from the beginning. Every time you could just leave, and I wouldn't try to hold you. However, the distribution which was chosen was OpenSuSE (which was recommended only by Adir). Only one installation was accomplished, despite our best efforts - and this with a DVD which seems to have been burnt properly (because it installed properly on Adir's laptop). From chats I had with some of the arrivers, this is a known issue with SuSE. Furthermore, for people without DVD drives (and such people did arrive, and we must recall that most people are inclined to install Linux rather on their older machines), SuSE has an inordinate 5-6 CDs, which weren't even made available. Almost all installations which were performed yesterday ended up being Ubuntu, from makeshift burnt CDs (all installs but one were flawless, BTW, and that one had a severely damaged hard drive) I'm sorry to tell you that I had no problem to install and burn OpenSuse and that I did that on 5 different computers. It is not ashame to say that you had no idea how to install it. It is my fault though, as I had no time to sit with you and show you how to do it properly, as I do every year. However, the most important part which was missing was advertising. Everyone but the organizers shared this complaint: They found out about it too late (if they had found out earlier, they would have brought their machines). This is particularily peculiar, seeing as the Yes sponsorship was intended to fix exactly this recurring, well-known problem. The advertising was a problem since Asat didn't make their promise. They promised to hang 80 A3 pages around the campus, and they put only 10, which most of them were in Ullman. I hope to see better solutions for these problems for the next Linux Day. Next time I will build everything using more professional hands. I'm not worried about that one anymore. -- To necessity... and beyond! Ohad Lutzky -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Haifux] Disappointing Linux Day
On Sun, 25 Jun 2006, Alon Altman wrote: The linux day should not be about installing linux anymore. Installing linux is trivial, and anyone with a basic background in computers can manage this on her own. The problem most people have is with configuration. The #1 problem is connecting to the Internet, a problem unsolved at all in the linux day in its current format. The next slew of problems all need internet access to be fixed. YOu don't read the surface. It is still not trivial for many people. That's why the Linux parties exist. My suggestion is to have a linux configuration day instead. Get Bezeq and Hot to supply several (2-3 each) lines with ADSL/Cable connections for the party. Ask people to bring their modems with them. Get Bezeq to sell linux-compatible routers and network cards AT THE PARTY. Prepare CDs with drivers for all ADSL and cable modems in circulation and cable scripts for most ISPs (especially Bezeqint, Netvison, Actcom, and Technion). Have additional stands with working internet connections for other configurations and have gurus do the configurations quickly. A day with configurations can be combined with the regular Linux Day. If we had just enough people we could make an experts panel, but the fact is that we had not. About the advertising issue, the linux day must be part of a greater advertising campaign to increase awareness. It must be planned months ahead of time, and the date MUST NOT BE CHANGED close to the event. I agree about this one. I had the same advertising problem before June 7th and I hoped that it wouldn't happen on June 21st, but it happened. If the set date must be changed due to extreme circumstances, the event should be cancelled and rescheduled several months later, as all the advertisment and publicity should restart with the new date. A3 posters inside the technion is not enough. We should get Haifa city sponsorship on city billboards. We should make sure the event appears in major media (at least newspapers, preferably TV). To have that we must have a gimmick. This year we had one (yes), but the person in charge was to incompotent to exploit this. If we want to have a successful linux day, we should start advertising when the yes show airs. Even though its not that high rating, it is a much wider audience that we can hope for. We need to make a buzz about linux and we need to concetrate it around a specific date. We need to answer all newbie questions in forums or in person with come to the linux day on We need community awareness. Nice ideas. Now bring the hands to do them. Adir. Alon -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 GPG public key at http://8ln.org/pubkey.txt Key fingerprint = A670 6C81 19D3 3773 3627 DE14 B44A 50A3 FE06 7F24 -- -=[ Random Fortune ]=- Time-sharing is the junk-mail part of the computer business. -- H. R. J. Grosch (attributed) -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Haifux] Disappointing Linux Day
On Sun, 25 Jun 2006, yakoub abaya wrote: so i agree : install party -very stupid , configuration party-great idea No, it is not very stupid when we want one distribution to rely on during an installation party. why should someone be in charge of anything ? it should be a community effort community effort? you must be kidding me. Adir. -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Haifux] Disappointing Linux Day
On 6/25/06, Adir Abraham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm sorry to tell you that I did my own tests, and no distribution's decision is finite. In your case, however, you go with Ubuntu since v1. This is your own blind decision. I'm sorry, but I have to disagree here. How is that decision 'blind'? I've used many distributions over the years, and kept comparing them to each other as they progressed - Mandrake, Gentoo, Fedora Core, Debian, RHEL, various Live distros, and more. And time after time, ever since it was released, Ubuntu has proven to be a better choice for new-intermediate users than the others, and by its own right a very powerful and comfortable OS. I've seen many people switch from other distros to it, and be very happy. Admittedly, I have nil experience with SuSE, but saying that my decision for Ubuntu is blind, well, that's a bit much. I'm glad that you achieved a 2 years experience(!) with Ubuntu. Happy for you. If you ever want to do an Ubuntu Linux Party, you go and do it. You have no right to complain here. You didn't like the decision from the beginning. Every time you could just leave, and I wouldn't try to hold you. Ah, but here you miss the point. I don't work for Ubuntu and I couldn't care less if people run it or something else. My interest was to better the experience of the installfest for the installees (to promote F/OSS, blah blah blah - but specifically, to make the linux day a good linux day). And I believed then as I still do now that Ubuntu would have been a better choice of distro. However, seeing as you wouldn't accept this option (at least not until installations failed left and right, and/or the first person without the DVD drive came along), I was faced with two options: Either refuse to help, or help. Believing that I can indeed help, I stayed on board. But that doesn't revoke my right to bitch about the distro. -- To necessity... and beyond! Ohad Lutzky -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Haifux] Disappointing Linux Day
i for one stand behind adir. he worked very hard with a very limited staff, and while it was far from a perfect linux day, with all things considered it could have scarcely been a better one. claiming he should have had more of something is merely whining. were do you get more stuff? It doesn't just pop out of thin air! furthermore, while i disagree with the choice of distro, it isn't a bad distro or an awful choice, i merely think ubuntu's advantages are slightly better, and as this is a subjective matter this doesn't make his decision wrong. last of all, the failing DVD's were quite a stroke of Murphy's law, that was all it was, and holding adir to blame for it is absurd. all in all, few could have done better, scarcely much, better and complaining about it isn't helping making the next one good either!On 6/26/06, boazg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:for god's sake man, adir worked very hard and tried to make the best of what he had, and your one point of disconcent, the distro, is not enouth to go calling him a failure in public in that sort of way. furthermore, as he hadf the most at stake, we both watched as murphy's law beared down uppon him at a critical moment and to add insult to injury here is quite pointless.On 6/25/06, Ohad Lutzky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 6/25/06, Adir Abraham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm sorry to tell you that I did my own tests, and no distribution's decision is finite. In your case, however, you go with Ubuntu since v1. This is your own blind decision.I'm sorry, but I have to disagree here. How is that decision 'blind'?I've used manydistributions over the years, and kept comparing themto each other as they progressed - Mandrake, Gentoo, Fedora Core, Debian, RHEL, various Live distros, and more. And time after time,ever since it was released, Ubuntu has proven to be a better choicefor new-intermediate users than the others, and by its own right avery powerful and comfortable OS. I've seen many people switch from other distros to it, and be very happy. Admittedly, I have nilexperience with SuSE, but saying that my decision for Ubuntu is blind,well, that's a bit much. I'm glad that you achieved a 2 years experience(!) with Ubuntu. Happy for you. If you ever want to do an Ubuntu Linux Party, you go and do it. You have no right to complain here. You didn't like the decision from the beginning. Every time you could just leave, and I wouldn't try to hold you.Ah, but here you miss the point. I don't work for Ubuntu and Icouldn't care less if people run it or something else. My interest wasto better the experience of the installfest for the installees (to promote F/OSS, blah blah blah - but specifically, to make the linuxday a good linux day). And I believed then as I still do now thatUbuntu would have been a better choice of distro. However, seeing asyou wouldn't accept this option (at least not until installations failed left and right, and/or the first person without the DVD drivecame along), I was faced with two options: Either refuse to help, orhelp. Believing that I can indeed help, I stayed on board. But thatdoesn't revoke my right to bitch about the distro. --To necessity... and beyond!Ohad Lutzky
Re: [Haifux] Disappointing Linux Day
Ohad Lutzky wrote: However, seeing as you wouldn't accept this option (at least not until installations failed left and right, and/or the first person without the DVD drive came along) Please separate the faulty DVDs (one of the two bunches was faulty) and a faulty installation. -- Haifa Linux Club Mailing List (http://www.haifux.org) To unsub send an empty message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Haifux] Disappointing Linux Day
The scarce staff was not a basic problem out of its own. There were few people willing to help because people where systematically being stepped on and ignored. I do not want to mention names here, because this is not a personal argument. The organization could have been better if more people were given a say in making decisions. One way to incent people to volunteer is to make them part of the process, instead of coming with decisions without backing. This method of decision-making led to errors being repeated that we didn't make for years -- home-burning of DVDs at high speed that led to almost 100% failure rate, lack of advertising and rush date change, lack of forms with computer details, and lack of internet connection. No one can make such an event all by themselves. Given the small staff and man-hours involved, the event went suprisingly well. About the distribution issue, one problem that was not addressed is the issue of support. Whatever distro we install, these people will come to us for support. To give this support well, we must have a community of people knowledgeable about this distribution. In the haifux community, we have people knowledgeable about ubuntu, debian, gentoo, mandriva, and fedora -- no SuSE. As debian and gentoo are not beginner-oriented, we are left with ubuntu, mandriva and fedora. If one of these was chosen, the process would have worked much more smoothly. Regarding the issue of not enough experts for configurations. I think this is incorrect. At least at the times I were at the linux day (which, I admit were not too long due to pervious obligations) there was an abundance of experts and installers and almost no installees. I still think the idea of the linux day should be morphed to something completely different. We need to think of our goals here, that are not the same: 1. Introducing new people to linux -- here we need advertising to the general computer-literate public and lectures such as W2L. 2. Convincing people to try and install linux -- lectures could help here as well, and maybe installations in a linux day and free gifts for people who install. Another avenue is programming courses which recommend linux. 3. Making sure people who have tried linux have a good experience -- here we should provide quick and accurate support, and to be friendly to the newbies. Creating a magic CD that will configure the users' internet connection is a top priority here. I don't know how iwiz is going, but this should interest us. Also this CD should include unbundled software such as mplayer, nVidia/ATI drivers etc. If the CD is easy to use, we almost don't need a configuration day. An installation party may help with (2), an expert panel and online support could help with (3). I think (3) is the greater problem now. Alon On Mon, 26 Jun 2006, boazg wrote: i for one stand behind adir. he worked very hard with a very limited staff, and while it was far from a perfect linux day, with all things considered it could have scarcely been a better one. claiming he should have had more of something is merely whining. were do you get more stuff? It doesn't just pop out of thin air! furthermore, while i disagree with the choice of distro, it isn't a bad distro or an awful choice, i merely think ubuntu's advantages are slightly better, and as this is a subjective matter this doesn't make his decision wrong. last of all, the failing DVD's were quite a stroke of Murphy's law, that was all it was, and holding adir to blame for it is absurd. all in all, few could have done better, scarcely much, better and complaining about it isn't helping making the next one good either! On 6/26/06, boazg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: for god's sake man, adir worked very hard and tried to make the best of what he had, and your one point of disconcent, the distro, is not enouth to go calling him a failure in public in that sort of way. furthermore, as he hadf the most at stake, we both watched as murphy's law beared down uppon him at a critical moment and to add insult to injury here is quite pointless. On 6/25/06, Ohad Lutzky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 6/25/06, Adir Abraham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm sorry to tell you that I did my own tests, and no distribution's decision is finite. In your case, however, you go with Ubuntu since v1. This is your own blind decision. I'm sorry, but I have to disagree here. How is that decision 'blind'? I've used many distributions over the years, and kept comparing them to each other as they progressed - Mandrake, Gentoo, Fedora Core, Debian, RHEL, various Live distros, and more. And time after time, ever since it was released, Ubuntu has proven to be a better choice for new-intermediate users than the others, and by its own right a very powerful and comfortable OS. I've seen many people switch from other distros to it, and be very happy. Admittedly, I have nil experience with SuSE, but saying that my
