[Haskell-cafe] Re: GPL answers from the SFLC (WAS: Re: ANN: hakyll-0.1)
On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 11:34 AM, Tom Tobin korp...@korpios.com wrote: After politely pestering them again, I finally heard back from the Software Freedom Law Center regarding our GPL questions (quoted below). I exchanged several emails to clarify the particular issues; in short, the answers are No, No, N/A, and N/A. The SFLC holds that a library that depends on a GPL'd library must in turn be GPL'd, even if the library is only distributed as source and not in binary form. They offered to draft some sort of explicit response if we'd find it useful. Several people expressed interest in a more explicit and official response from the SFLC, so I'm going to ask them if it would be possible to receive one that the Haskell community could use to help us resolve GPL licensing questions. I'll follow up again once I receive that. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] GPL answers from the SFLC (WAS: Re: ANN: hakyll-0.1)
After politely pestering them again, I finally heard back from the Software Freedom Law Center regarding our GPL questions (quoted below). I exchanged several emails to clarify the particular issues; in short, the answers are No, No, N/A, and N/A. The SFLC holds that a library that depends on a GPL'd library must in turn be GPL'd, even if the library is only distributed as source and not in binary form. They offered to draft some sort of explicit response if we'd find it useful. Maybe it would be useful if Cabal had some sort of licensing check command that could be run on a .cabal file, and warn an author if any libraries it depends on (directly or indirectly) are GPL'd but the .cabal itself does not have the license set to GPL. On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 10:21 PM, Tom Tobin korp...@korpios.com wrote: I'd like to get these questions out to the SFLC so we can satisfy our curiosity; at the moment, here's what I'd be asking: Background: X is a library distributed under the terms of the GPL. Y is another library which calls external functions in the API of X, and requires X to compile. X and Y have different authors. 1) Can the author of Y legally distribute the *source* of Y under a non-GPL license, such as the 3-clause BSD license or the MIT license? 2) If the answer to 1 is no, is there *any* circumstance under which the author of Y can distribute the source of Y under a non-GPL license? 3) If the answer to 1 is yes, what specifically would trigger the redistribution of a work in this scenario under the GPL? Is it the distribution of X+Y *together* (whether in source or binary form)? 4) If the answer to 1 is yes, does this mean that a BSD-licensed library does not necessarily mean that closed-source software can be distributed which is based upon such a library (if it so happens that the library in turn depends on a copylefted library)? By the way, apologies to the author of Hakyll — I'm sure this isn't what you had in mind when you announced your library! I'm just hoping that we can figure out what our obligations are based upon the GPL, since I'm not so sure myself anymore. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: How many Haskell Engineer I/II/IIIs are there?
On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 2:24 AM, Michael Lesniak mlesn...@uni-kassel.de wrote: There's the subReddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell_proposals/ I know it. The problem is that (at least in my opinion) only a small fraction of Haskell'ers use it. I strongly dislike social X sites (where X is networking, bookmarking, etc.). I'd rather keep that sort of thing on mailing lists, wikis, and bug trackers. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Two authors especially likely to be spammed.
On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:29 PM, Jason Dusek jason.du...@gmail.com wrote: I recently discovered that many haskell-cafe mails are being dumped in my SPAM folder. A lot of them are from John Lato and Simon Marlow. I just did this search on my Gmail: in:spam haskell ... and got no results, so I think I'm okay. FWIW I'm using the Google Apps version of Gmail; I don't know if that makes a difference. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Notes on migrating from uvector to vector
On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 9:43 PM, Ivan Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com wrote: On 16 February 2010 08:35, Don Stewart d...@galois.com wrote: Enjoy the new decade of flexible, fusible, fast arrays for Haskell! /me points out that 2010 is actually the last year of the decade, and not the first year of a new decade... Hm, I'm not sure about that; while it's fairly established that millenniums are 1-indexed (as there was no Year 0 ... silly Gregorian calendar), it seems that decades are 0-indexed (e.g., the 80s). Unfortunately neither of my go-to usage guides (_Garner's Modern American Usage_ and _The Chicago Manual of Style_) says much on the topic. :p ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] How many Haskell Engineer I/II/IIIs are there?
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 9:59 AM, Jason Dusek jason.du...@gmail.com wrote: I wonder how many people actually write Haskell, principally or exclusively, at work? While I don't suspect the number is large at the moment, the same thing could have been said several years ago of the language I use at my current job and used at my last job: Python. I get the same industrial incubation period vibe (for lack of a better term) from Haskell that I once got from Python -- although perhaps I'm biased in that I simply *like* these languages, too. :p ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 149 - February 08, 2010
On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 11:47 AM, jfred...@gmail.com wrote: --- Haskell Weekly News http://sequence.complete.org/hwn/20100208 Issue 149 - February 08, 2010 --- [snip] [11]Haskell news from the [12]blogosphere. Blog posts from people new to the Haskell community are marked with , be sure to welcome them! I always enjoy catching the HWN; it's a good summary of stuff that I don't necessarily catch (particularly the blog posts), which is particularly useful when I'm still a beginner with the language. That said, I have a minor suggestion: I think the mention of the marker for posts from new people should be omitted if there aren't any such posts in the current edition. It would help avoid confusion for those reading the HWN for the first time. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] safe-lazy-io on GHC 6.12?
After convincing myself the hard way that you can't be lazy across strict monadic results (by writing myself a foldrM -- yeah, I'm still a beginner), I noticed the recent discussion of safe-lazy-io vs. iteratee with interest. The safe-lazy-io package seems much easier to understand than iteratee, but it doesn't compile on GHC 6.12 (and I haven't had any luck in figuring out how to update it myself). The Hackage build log shows the same build result I'm getting [1]; is there any chance of it getting updated to work on 6.12? [1] http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/safe-lazy-io/0.1/logs/failure/ghc-6.12 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Anyone recommend a VPS?
On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 3:37 PM, Michael Snoyman mich...@snoyman.com wrote: OK, I guess the unananimous opinion in linode ;). Thanks for the input everyone! If it helps make your client even more comfortable: not only do I use Linode for my personal VPS, but we use them at work to host some fairly popular websites. Our sysadmin absolutely loves them to death; he's always raving about how easy our hosting is now since moving there. :-) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Language simplicity
On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 12:45 AM, Colin Paul Adams co...@colina.demon.co.uk wrote: Tom == Tom Tobin korp...@korpios.com writes: Tom readability. The ASCII characters are universal and easily Tom recognized No they are not. My wife is Chinese. When she was learning pinyin as a child, she asked her father for help with some homework. He replied that he didn't understand them. I should have said The ASCII characters are universal and easily recognized *for programmers*. Of course someone who hasn't come in contact with the Latin alphabet, let alone programming, isn't going to recognize ASCII — but I think we'd have an amazingly hard time finding a programmer who wasn't familiar with it, regardless of their native language. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] General Advice Needed ..
On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 7:52 AM, Ian675 adam_khan_...@hotmail.com wrote: Is there any general advice? Just keep reading the book till it drills into my big head? Also don't be afraid to ask specific questions on the Beginners mailing list; while Cafe is a good general resource, Beginners is specifically there for those still learning the language (like me). :-) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Language simplicity
On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH allb...@ece.cmu.edu wrote: On Jan 13, 2010, at 14:25 , Andrew Coppin wrote: (And even if that's not the case, I've yet to find a way to type in the Unicode characters which are hypothetically possible.) That's a problem with your editor/development environment. It's not just one's editor (I use emacs, and it's actually not that hard to type a decent subset of interesting Unicode characters in emacs with the tex input mode), but readability. The ASCII characters are universal and easily recognized (assuming you have a decent monochrome font); having to notice potentially significant differences involving diacritics alone (not to mention all the various mathematical symbols) in identifiers would drive me mad. It's the same reason we try to limit lines of code to ~80 characters — our editors are *capable* of more, sure, but are we? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] short licensing question
On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 6:58 AM, Sebastian Fischer s...@informatik.uni-kiel.de wrote: when writing a Haskell library that uses two other Haskell libraries -- one licensed under BSD3 and one under LGPL -- what are allowed possibilities for licensing the written package? PublicDomain? BSD3? LGPL? There was a long thread on licensing recently: http://www.mail-archive.com/haskell-cafe@haskell.org/msg68237.html I'm still waiting to hear back from the SFLC regarding the questions we came up with, and I'll post them as soon as I get them. I think in your case you can license the library you're writing any way you'd like, but distributing a statically linked binary might leave you with additional obligations under the LGPL. (Things get wonderfully more confusing when one of the libraries is the GPL, but hopefully we'll have more insight regarding that soon.) I'm not a lawyer, though, and I suggest that you take any advice from non-lawyers as hints rather than definitive answers. If you want an answer from a lawyer, the SFLC can be useful: http://www.softwarefreedom.org/ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Haskell-iPhone mailing list?
Is there a mailing list for efforts to get Haskell running on the iPhone? As I've been maintaining an iPhone app for my employer (and nearly foaming at the mouth with hatred for Objective-C), I'd love to see a more sane option in this space. I've seen the wiki page [1], but I'm not aware of any other space for collaboration here. [1] http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/IPhone ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Lambda's
On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 5:35 PM, wren ng thornton w...@freegeek.org wrote: Even if folks don't mind the NSFW, some of us work to combat the sexist culture that pervades computer science and prevents women from embracing a love of mathematics and programming. ::sigh:: As much as I didn't care for the original post, I care for politics even less. ^_^ Let's just leave it at don't post so-called 'NSFW' content as a healthy rule of thumb. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Data.Ring -- Pre-announce
On Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 5:27 AM, Heinrich Apfelmus apfel...@quantentunnel.de wrote: Since the name Ring is already taken by an ubiquitous mathematical structure, and thus already in hackage for example as Algebra.Ring in the numeric-prelude , I suggest to call the data structure Necklace instead. Is Necklace a known name for this data structure? If not Ring, I was thinking Circular might be an appropriate name. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Cabal's License type: MIT commented out?
On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 5:12 AM, Duncan Coutts duncan.cou...@googlemail.com wrote: So the reason it's there commented out in the Cabal-1.6 code you're looking at is to remind us to uncomment it for Cabal-1.8 (which it now is, along with the versioned (L)GPL licenses). Ahh, okay. (I love when stuff is already fixed before I ask a question ... I want a time machine, too!) :-D ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Cabal's License type: MIT commented out?
I noticed on Hackage that packages that are MIT licensed show up as OtherLicense. I took a peek inside the Cabal code, and noticed that the License type has lines for MIT, but commented out [1]: ---- | The MIT license, similar to the BSD3. Very free license. -- | MIT Why is this? Both the BSD3 and BSD4 get entries in this module. It would be nice to know up-front that a license is indeed liberal (BSD/MIT) rather than having to open up the package and look at the LICENSE file. (I also use the MIT license for my code, and would like to avoid confusing people once I start distributing Haskell libraries.) [1] http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/Cabal/latest/doc/html/src/Distribution-License.html#License ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: install-dirs on Mac OS X
On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 4:49 AM, Heinrich Apfelmus apfel...@quantentunnel.de wrote: Likewise, ~/Library/Haskell seems to be the best place for user installs. While I don't mind the /Library/Haskell path for global installs, I'm not sure how I feel about this for local installs. It usually drives me crazy when my more Unix-y tools stick stuff in my ~/Library/ directory; for instance, I had to actively fight with my copy of Aquamacs Emacs in order to get everything running from ~/.emacs.d/ rather than ~/Library/Preferences/Aquamacs Emacs/. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Problem with cabal install zlib
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Ozgur Akgun ozgurak...@gmail.com wrote: Oh sorry for that character. I wanted to make that part underlined in gmail which uses (i guess) *'s to denote it. Just to emphasise the problematic part. Yikes — I just checked what Gmail sends as the plain-text alternative with an HTML email, and it does indeed use asterisks. Many people have their email clients set to show only the plain-text version of any email they get, so it's probably best to always use plain text in the first place for technical discussions. ^_^ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] GHC 6.12 on OS X 10.5
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 4:32 AM, Conor McBride co...@strictlypositive.org wrote: I thought I'd record my upgrade exerience (so far) in case anyone else finds it useful, and (more selfishly) in case anyone has some helpful advice. Summary of situation You just described what I went through last night with GHC 6.12 before giving up and going to bed, except that I'm on Snow Leopard (OS X 10.6). I got the undefined symbols errors when trying to compile cpphs, which came up at some point in the build process when trying to install Happstack via cabal 0.8.0. I was wondering if if something was getting confused between my MacPorts libraries and OS X, and your experience certainly makes it seem that way; I have the MacPorts paths set up in my .cabal/config file as extra-include-dirs and extra-lib-dirs, otherwise I can't get particular libraries (e.g., pcre-lite) to compile. I'm going to wipe my .cabal and .ghc and try from scratch to build as much as possible without the MacPorts paths, only re-adding them for single builds as necessary; I'll write back after I see how that goes. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] GHC 6.12 on OS X 10.5
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 1:38 PM, Tom Tobin korp...@korpios.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 4:32 AM, Conor McBride co...@strictlypositive.org wrote: I thought I'd record my upgrade exerience (so far) in case anyone else finds it useful, and (more selfishly) in case anyone has some helpful advice. Summary of situation You just described what I went through last night with GHC 6.12 before giving up and going to bed, except that I'm on Snow Leopard (OS X 10.6). I got the undefined symbols errors when trying to compile cpphs, which came up at some point in the build process when trying to install Happstack via cabal 0.8.0. I was wondering if if something was getting confused between my MacPorts libraries and OS X, and your experience certainly makes it seem that way; I have the MacPorts paths set up in my .cabal/config file as extra-include-dirs and extra-lib-dirs, otherwise I can't get particular libraries (e.g., pcre-lite) to compile. I'm going to wipe my .cabal and .ghc and try from scratch to build as much as possible without the MacPorts paths, only re-adding them for single builds as necessary; I'll write back after I see how that goes. This time, after wiping .ghc and .cabal, I immediately did cabal update followed by cabal install happstack (without going and changing the extra-include-* settings in .cabal/config to point at the MacPorts dirs). cpphs compiled fine this time, but I got a failure due to haskell-src-exts not building; haskell-src-exts in turn complained that happy wasn't installed. I went and installed happy, then haskell-src-exts (which installed v1.3.4), and then did cabal install happstack again which installed haskell-src-exts v1.0.1 (I guess GHC understands how to deal with two different installed library versions?). This time the install died on HJScript: ** [ 2 of 26] Compiling HJScript.Monad ( src/HJScript/Monad.hs, dist/build/HJScript/Monad.o ) src/HJScript/Monad.hs:51:10: A pattern match on a GADT requires -XGADTs In the pattern: EmptyBlock In the definition of `mappend': mappend EmptyBlock b = b In the instance declaration for `Monoid (Block ())' cabal: Error: some packages failed to install: HJScript-0.4.5 failed during the building phase. The exception was: ExitFailure 1 ** I have no idea what to do next, so I'll probably bring this particular issue up on the Happstack list next. My questions at this point: 1) The original problem definitely looks like it's related to library confusion between the system libs and the MacPorts libs. Is there any way of sanely handling this when I need a library that's available through MacPorts but not OS X's system libs? (MacPorts' insistence on maintaining an entirely separate library stack from the OS X system libraries is starting to make me crazy. ::sigh::) 2) Regarding haskell-src-exts: why wasn't happy wasn't pulled into the dependency graph in the first place? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] GHC 6.12 on OS X 10.5
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Antoine Latter aslat...@gmail.com wrote:
This one I can help with. You need to modify the .cabal file for
HJScript slightly. To do this:
cabal unpack HJScript
cd HJScript-0.4.5
${EDITOR} HJScript.cabal
And then add 'GADTs' to the 'Extensions:' list.
That fixed it (after then running cabal instal in the unpacked dir).
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] GHC 6.12 on OS X 10.5
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 8:41 PM, Tom Tobin korp...@korpios.com wrote:
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Antoine Latter aslat...@gmail.com wrote:
This one I can help with. You need to modify the .cabal file for
HJScript slightly. To do this:
cabal unpack HJScript
cd HJScript-0.4.5
${EDITOR} HJScript.cabal
And then add 'GADTs' to the 'Extensions:' list.
That fixed it (after then running cabal instal in the unpacked dir).
And oh, yes — thanks! :-)
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] GHC 6.12 status and features
On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 6:00 AM, Adam Cimarosti cimaro...@gmail.com wrote: WIth 6.10.4 there's a major bug with Snow leopard: It doesn't work (Cannot compile 64-bit). Well, it works as long as you apply a workaround and have universal (combo 32/64-bit) libraries available — albeit it would be much nicer to have 64-bit support. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANN: hakyll-0.1
On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 4:54 AM, minh thu not...@gmail.com wrote: I'd like to point out a possible situation, that makes the questions even more interesting. Say the author of Y (the BSD licensed code) is used to install its code, Y, along of its requisite X (under GPL) to customer locations. Note that Y and X are not (re)distributed in compiled form. In fact, the client could have the internal resource to install and configure Y and its requisite himself (if Y was made available to him). Is it ok in regard of the GPL ? I think the answer to this will be the same as the answer to question 1. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] GHC 6.12 status and features
On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 8:22 AM, Max Bolingbroke batterseapo...@hotmail.com wrote: 2009/12/12 Rafael Gustavo da Cunha Pereira Pinto rafaelgcpp.li...@gmail.com: I know I should probably be asking to the GHC list, but is there any update on 6.12 since October? Any probable release date? It looks like haskell.org just acquired this page, though it's not yet linked to from anywhere else: http://haskell.org/ghc/download_ghc_6_12_1.html Aw, no OS X package yet ... :-) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANN: hakyll-0.1
On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 6:31 PM, Tom Tobin korp...@korpios.com wrote: Question 2 can be If the answer to 1 is no, is there *any* circumstance under which the author of Y can distribute the source of Y under a non-GPL license? I'd like to get these questions out to the SFLC so we can satisfy our curiosity; at the moment, here's what I'd be asking: Background: X is a library distributed under the terms of the GPL. Y is another library which calls external functions in the API of X, and requires X to compile. X and Y have different authors. 1) Can the author of Y legally distribute the *source* of Y under a non-GPL license, such as the 3-clause BSD license or the MIT license? 2) If the answer to 1 is no, is there *any* circumstance under which the author of Y can distribute the source of Y under a non-GPL license? 3) If the answer to 1 is yes, what specifically would trigger the redistribution of a work in this scenario under the GPL? Is it the distribution of X+Y *together* (whether in source or binary form)? 4) If the answer to 1 is yes, does this mean that a BSD-licensed library does not necessarily mean that closed-source software can be distributed which is based upon such a library (if it so happens that the library in turn depends on a copylefted library)? By the way, apologies to the author of Hakyll — I'm sure this isn't what you had in mind when you announced your library! I'm just hoping that we can figure out what our obligations are based upon the GPL, since I'm not so sure myself anymore. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] (semi OT) Fwd: Old math reveals new thinking in children's cognitive development
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 9:21 PM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH allb...@ece.cmu.edu wrote: Unexpected applications of category theory for $500, Alex Before you know it, they're going to be modeling mental processes as monads. :p ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANN: hakyll-0.1
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 4:59 AM, Ketil Malde ke...@malde.org wrote: Tom Tobin korp...@korpios.com writes: If it turns out that Hakyll *is* okay to be BSD3 licensed so long as neither any binary nor the GPL'd work's source is distributed under non-GPL terms, well ... I'll say that the meaning of BSD licensed will have become much less reliable, since it means you actually have to trace the genealogy of the libraries you use *all* the way back in order to understand the situation for certain. How so? To me it's the exact converse: if the author of Hakyll may *not* distribute his work under the BSD license, just because it is intended to be linked with some GPL code, this complicates issues tremendously. For instance, it would mean that businesses which may be writing proprietary software can't assume they can freely use a liberally licensed (e.g., BSD3) library — which would *completely* go against the prevailing understanding of liberally licensed software. Tainting your software with a GPL dependency without realizing it is a terrifying prospect (and certainly one of the questions I'd now like to pose to the SFLC). ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell job opportunity
On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 11:09 AM, siki ga...@karamaan.com wrote: I've posted this before but did not get a whole lot of responses, so here it is again: [...] You should have at least a bachelor’s degree in computer science from a top university Might I humbly suggest that this is going to severely limit your hiring options? You're looking for the intersection of sets of people who: - Have a BS in computer science (cuts out a fair number of people) - Graduated from a top university (cuts out a *lot* of people) - Is familiar with Java (cuts out some people) - Is skilled with Haskell (a fair bet for many on this mailing list, at least) - Can work in the Manhattan area (cuts out a *lot* of people) I'm not sure how many people *exist* who meet all these criteria. ;-) I'd probably start by dropping your top university requirement, since I don't think it's all that relevant if you find your candidate has the skills you're looking for. You might even find someone who fits yet doesn't have a CompSci BS degree; you can phrase it as a BS in computer science or an equivalent strong background in theoretical computer science or somesuch, as appropriate. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANN: hakyll-0.1
On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 3:46 PM, Tom Tobin korp...@korpios.com wrote: If you are forming a derivative work based on the GPL'd work, and thus you have to release that derivative work under the GPL. Wow, I mangled the syntax on that last sentence. That should read: If you are forming a derivative work based on the GPL'd work, you thus have to release that derivative work under the GPL. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANN: hakyll-0.1
On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Robert Greayer robgrea...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Tom Tobin korp...@korpios.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 3:30 PM, Ben Franksen ben.frank...@online.de wrote: Ketil Malde wrote: Your contributions could still be licensed under a different license (e.g. BSD), as long as the licensing doesn't prevent somebody else to pick it up and relicense it under GPL. At least, that's how I understand things. Right. So hakyll is absolutely fine with a BSD3 license, AFAICS. Seriously, no, this is *totally* wrong reading of the GPL, probably fostered by a misunderstanding of the term GPL-compatible license. GPL-compatible means the compatibly-licensed work can be incorporated into the GPL'd work (the whole of which is GPL'd), *not the other way around*. If you are forming a derivative work based on the GPL'd work, and thus you have to release that derivative work under the GPL. The crux here is that the source code of hakyll, released on hackage, is not a derivative of Pandoc (it contains, as far as I understand it, no Pandoc source code). A compiled executable *is* a derivative of Pandoc, so anyone who *distributes* a compiled executable would need to make *all* the source available under the GPL (including the hakyll source). Since the hakyll package is released under BSD3, this would be allowed (AIUI, IANAL). IANAL either, but my understanding is that judges take a very dim view of attempts like this to evade the requirements of a license. If a piece of software is built on another piece of software, it doesn't matter if you're looking at source code or a binary. I can write the SFLC and pose a hypothetical situation that captures the gist of what we're talking about, and post the response here, if anyone is interested. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANN: hakyll-0.1
On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Warren Henning warren.henn...@gmail.com wrote: Am I the only one who finds this stuff confusing as hell? It *is* confusing as hell, because law is confusing as hell, because it's an interpreted language of sorts — what matters is how judges rule on the law, not just the law as written. Copyleft licenses, contributor license agreements, and other such icky stuff makes me crazy, but it's stuff that has to be at least somewhat understood if you're contributing to open source, IMHO. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANN: hakyll-0.1
On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 5:15 PM, Gregory Crosswhite gcr...@phys.washington.edu wrote: On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Tom Tobin korp...@korpios.com wrote: The crux here is that the source code of hakyll, released on hackage, is not a derivative of Pandoc (it contains, as far as I understand it, no Pandoc source code). A compiled executable *is* a derivative of Pandoc, so anyone who *distributes* a compiled executable would need to make *all* the source available under the GPL (including the hakyll source). Since the hakyll package is released under BSD3, this would be allowed (AIUI, IANAL). Hm, I didn't write that; I think your quoting is off. ^_^ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANN: hakyll-0.1
On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Robert Greayer robgrea...@gmail.com wrote: Not to belabor the point (I hope), but consider the following situation -- if the current version of Pandoc, 1.2.1, were released under BSD3, not GPL, it would be obvious that the current version of hakyll could be released as BSD3 as well. After said hakyll release, the Pandoc maintainer would be perfectly within his rights to release an API compatible 1.2.2 version of Pandoc, this time licensed under the GPL. People installing hakyll with cabal might now be building a version of hakyll containing both GPL and BSD3 code. This is not under either author's control, and is perfectly allowable. If the person downloading chooses to redistribute the hakyll executable he's built, he must be aware of and comply with his responsibilities under the GPL, but those would be his responsibilities, not those of the original author of hakyll. (AIUI -- IANAL). The compatible-API issue is very murky — it does indeed seem weird that creating an API-compatible BSD'd library would magically release users. I've seen other discussions regarding this, and about the sanest conclusion I've drawn is ask your lawyer. :-/ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Re: ANN: hakyll-0.1
On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 4:56 PM, Ben Franksen ben.frank...@online.de wrote: On Tue, 8 Dec 2009, Tom Tobin wrote: Seriously, no, this is *totally* wrong reading of the GPL, probably fostered by a misunderstanding of the term GPL-compatible license. GPL-compatible means the compatibly-licensed work can be incorporated into the GPL'd work (the whole of which is GPL'd), *not the other way around*. No. See http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/gpl-faq.html#WhatIsCompatible Quote: What does it mean to say that two licenses are compatible? In order to combine two programs (or substantial parts of them) into a larger work, you need to have permission to use both programs in this way. If the two programs' licenses permit this, they are compatible. If there is no way to satisfy both licenses at once, they are incompatible.[...] That's what compatibility means in general for any set of licenses, yes. and http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/gpl-faq.html#WhatDoesCompatMean What does it mean to say a license is compatible with the GPL? It means that the other license and the GNU GPL are compatible; you can combine code released under the other license with code released under the GNU GPL in one larger program. And, yes — this is what I said. ^_^ Ganesh Sittampalam wrote: One might argue that the hakyll itself must be a derivative work as it builds on pandoc, If this were so, then /all/ of Linux (including all the thousands of programs found on linux distributions) would have to be licensed under GPL, which is clearly not the case. No, it doesn't work that way; merely running a program under GPL'd Linux isn't the same thing. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANN: hakyll-0.1
On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 5:09 PM, Erik de Castro Lopo mle...@mega-nerd.com wrote: Tom Tobin wrote: I can write the SFLC and pose a hypothetical situation that captures the gist of what we're talking about, and post the response here, if anyone is interested. I suggest that you put together a question, post it here for comments and when there is some form of concensus pass the question on the the SFLC. This sounds good to me; I don't think any of us are lawyers, but if we have lawyers available to ask questions for free, let's take advantage of it. I'm thinking something along these lines: Myself and several other members of a mailing list for a particular programming language were recently discussing a situation where a BSD-licensed work required a GPL'd library. The ensuing discussion led to much confusion all around, as we've all read various (different!) things regarding honoring the GPL, and even where we've read the same thing, we took away different conclusions. We came up with a list of questions that would help us understand the matter better, and we were hoping you could help us answer them. The background situation: X is a library distributed under the GPL. Y is another library that uses that library and requires it in order to compile and function. 1) Is there any scenario where Y can be distributed under a non-GPL license (e.g., the BSD)? 2) If so, what would Y's author need to do (or *not* do)? 3) If Y must be released under the GPL under the above scenario, and someone subsequently wrote library Z, an API compatible replacement for X, and released it under the BSD license, would Y's author now be permitted to release Y under the BSD? (Feel free to add more questions, and/or suggest tweaks.) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANN: hakyll-0.1
On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 6:10 PM, Erik de Castro Lopo mle...@mega-nerd.com wrote: Tom Tobin wrote: The background situation: X is a library distributed under the GPL. Y is another library that uses that library and requires it in order to compile and function. You probably also need to bring in application Z which uses library X via library Y, because library Y is not usable by itself. I think this is implicit in calling something a library; are there any questions where it would come up? 1) Is there any scenario where Y can be distributed under a non-GPL license (e.g., the BSD)? You need to make sure they know that your are talking about the 3 clause BSD license, the one the FSF calls the Modified BSD license. Good point. 3) If Y must be released under the GPL under the above scenario, and someone subsequently wrote library Z, an API compatible replacement for X, and released it under the BSD license, would Y's author now be permitted to release Y under the BSD? The author is always allowed to relicense their own work under whatever license they choose. Well I think that's actually what we're wondering here — under what circumstances is Y's author permitted to choose his license at will? For instance there are libraries released under the GPL which are also available under a commercial use license for use in closed source products. The requirement here is that the library is soley written by the person doing the dual licensing and/or all other contributors have assigned their rights. But those libraries don't, in turn, depend on GPL'd libraries written by different authors. I think the answer to the can Y's author choose the BSD3 for Y question will also answer this for cases where there's a further, different-author GPL dependency involved. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANN: hakyll-0.1
On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 6:21 PM, Tom Tobin korp...@korpios.com wrote: Well I think that's actually what we're wondering here — under what circumstances is Y's author permitted to choose his license at will? I think I phrased this poorly; it's more under what circumstances is Y's author permitted to distribute Y under the terms of a non-GPL license? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANN: hakyll-0.1
On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 6:25 PM, Matthew Brecknell matt...@brecknell.net wrote: Based on the discussion so far, I think you need to distinguish between distributing source and distributing binaries. For example: Background: X is a library distributed under GPL. Y is another library which calls external functions in the API of X. Assume X and Y have different authors. 1. Can the author of Y legally distribute the *source* of Y under a non-GPL licence (BSD3, Modified BSD, etc), assuming such source is distributed without any binaries, and is distributed separately from X? I think you're right — this cuts right to the heart of the main difference in understanding so far. Question 2 can be If the answer to 1 is no, is there *any* circumstance under which the author of Y can distribute the source of Y under a non-GPL license? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANN: hakyll-0.1
On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 8:19 PM, Robert Greayer robgrea...@gmail.com wrote: There's another FAQ on GNU site that, I think, addresses the Pandoc/Hakyll situation directly: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#LinkingWithGPL You have a GPL'ed program that I'd like to link with my code to build a proprietary program. Does the fact that I link with your program mean I have to GPL my program? Not exactly. It means you must release your program under a license compatible with the GPL (more precisely, compatible with one or more GPL versions accepted by all the rest of the code in the combination that you link). The combination itself is then available under those GPL versions. I'll confess to not being sure what exactly this means; this seems to imply that if you never distribute the GPL'd code itself, you're fine. In temporary lieu of posing questions explicitly to the SFLC, I dug up a copy of _Intellectual Property and Open Source_ by Foobar (and published by O'Reilly), and found this (from an entire chapter — Chapter 12 — about the GPL): Nevertheless, there is a persistent issue that won’t go away—whether linking programs together creates a derivative work. If linking creates a derivative work, the GPL applies to the linked program; otherwise, the GPL doesn’t apply. ... In legal practice, this arises as a common concern of clients just getting into open source. This question is usually phrased as either, 'Can I load and use a GPL-licensed library without applying the GPL to my application?' or, 'Do I have to apply the GPL to my plug-in for a particular program if that program is licensed under the GPL?' ... I won’t keep you in suspense; the short answer is that we don’t know. It then goes on with the long answer, which is honestly confusing as hell. There's even a question in the FAQ that goes like this: Q: That is different than the official GPL FAQ! Why? A: The GPL FAQ was written in inexact language, and gives the impression that the rules regarding derivative works may have greater reach than current copyright law allows. The FSF has repeatedly stated, however, that they believe in copyright minimalism and that the GPL should not be interpreted to extend beyond the reach of copyright. And the final answer is best: Q: Can I depend on the answers in this QA to keep me out of trouble? A: No. This is our best understanding of copyright law as it stands right now, but it could change tomorrow—and nobody really knows until these questions are resolved in a court of law. Oh dear Ceiling Cat, I have *no* idea at this point. Much of the FAQ deals with distributing *binaries*, though, not source alone. I'd still like to get a (somewhat?) straight answer from the SFLC folks, though. If it turns out that Hakyll *is* okay to be BSD3 licensed so long as neither any binary nor the GPL'd work's source is distributed under non-GPL terms, well ... I'll say that the meaning of BSD licensed will have become much less reliable, since it means you actually have to trace the genealogy of the libraries you use *all* the way back in order to understand the situation for certain. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANN: hakyll-0.1
On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 11:19 PM, Tom Tobin korp...@korpios.com wrote: In temporary lieu of posing questions explicitly to the SFLC, I dug up a copy of _Intellectual Property and Open Source_ by Foobar ::facepalm:: I wrote Foobar as a placeholder as I was typing, and never replaced it. The author's name is Van Lindberg. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] The Haskell Web News: December 2009 Edition
On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Deniz Dogan deniz.a.m.do...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/12/7 Don Stewart d...@galois.com: The Haskell Web News is a monthly summary of the hottest news about the Haskell programming language, as found in our online communities. If you want to catch up with what’s been happening in Haskell, this might be the journal for you. http://haskellwebnews.wordpress.com/2009/12/05/whats-new-in-haskell-december-2009/ I think the correct URL should be: http://haskellwebnews.wordpress.com/2009/12/05/whats-new-in-haskell-december-2009/ Actually, I think it's: http://haskellwebnews.wordpress.com/2009/12/06/whats-new-in-haskell-december-2009/ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] ANN: hakyll-0.1
On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 6:35 AM, Jasper van der Jeugt jasper...@gmail.com wrote: Hakyll is a simple static site generator library, mostly aimed at blogs. It supports markdown, tex and html templates. It is inspired by the ruby Jekyll program. It has a very small codebase because it makes extensive use of the excellent pandoc and Text.Template libraries. More information can be found on: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/hakyll-0.1 http://github.com/jaspervdj/Hakyll I hate to say this, but it looks like you're violating the GPL by not releasing Hakyll under the GPL, since Pandoc is GPL'd. I don't think you're alone in this — IIRC I've seen several Hackage libraries doing the same thing. I *really* wish Pandoc would switch to a non-copyleft license. (Pretty please, with sugar and cherries on top?) I know that GPL authors are trying to enforce contributions, but the opposite can very well happen: if you have an essential copyleft library, someone's eventually going to write a non-copyleft replacement for it (e.g., witness the replacements for Readline) rather than continue to allow it to restrict the licensing options of the community. Great libraries should be able to be embraced without reservations. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Card games
2009/12/3 Matthias Görgens matthias.goerg...@googlemail.com: Hi Tom, Did you make any progress on your Dominion quest? I guess you could start by modeling `Big Money' and add the other cards (and interaction) from there. No, I'm still trying to tune a partitionM function I wrote. (I'm still a beginner.) ^_^ I'd like to write a Dominion library or some more generic superset at some point, though. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Card games
On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 1:37 PM, Daniel Fischer daniel.is.fisc...@web.de wrote: Am Donnerstag 03 Dezember 2009 19:23:24 schrieb Tom Tobin: No, I'm still trying to tune a partitionM function I wrote. Maybe we can help? Sure; should I post it to haskell-beginners? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Card games
On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:29 PM, Daniel Fischer daniel.is.fisc...@web.de wrote: Am Donnerstag 03 Dezember 2009 21:24:11 schrieb Tom Tobin: On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 1:37 PM, Daniel Fischer daniel.is.fisc...@web.de wrote: Am Donnerstag 03 Dezember 2009 19:23:24 schrieb Tom Tobin: No, I'm still trying to tune a partitionM function I wrote. Maybe we can help? Sure; should I post it to haskell-beginners? Here, there, most of us are subscribed to both lists. I posted it to the beginners list, subject partitionM. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: haskell-mode 2.7.0
On Nov 30, 2009, at 5:06 PM, Ivan Lazar Miljenovic wrote: The default Hlint keybinding is C-c l: Doesn't that violate the emacs proscription against taking C-c (letter) bindings, as they are intended to be reserved for the user? From the GNU Emacs manual: Don't define C-c letter as a key in Lisp programs. Sequences consisting of C-c and a letter (either upper or lower case) are reserved for users; they are the *only* sequences reserved for users, so do not block them. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Re[2]: [Haskell-cafe] Howto start a bigger project
On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 2:43 PM, Bulat Ziganshin bulat.zigans...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Casey, Monday, November 16, 2009, 11:30:51 PM, you wrote: Why not use www.sourceforge.net? i strongly recommend http://code.google.com or http://codeplex.com SF is slow and olf-fashioned If you like distributed version control: git: GitHub, http://github.com/ (my favorite, since I'm a git addict) mercurial: BitBucket, http://bitbucket.org/ (or Google Code, these days) darcs: Patch-Tag, http://patch-tag.com/ bazaar: Launchpad, https://launchpad.net/ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Howto start a bigger project
2009/11/16 Günther Schmidt gue.schm...@web.de: Hi all, I don't think the *project* is ready for sourceforge or similar yet. I was thinking more about something bloggish first, where I could state some thoughts first and where people could then comment or otherwise contribute. I reckon it will be some time until the project needs a code repository, I'd need something first where I can sketch the whole thing and collect ideas. If you don't have a repository that people can grab and play with, it's going to be hard to attract interest. Even if the code is awful or totally broken, at least it's something your prospective audience can grab and play with. A blog without code won't do much, IMHO. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Writing great documentation
On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Max Rabkin max.rab...@gmail.com wrote: I have heard many complaints about the average quality on documentation. Therefore, I'd like to encourage you all to read Jacob Kaplan-Moss's series on writing great documentation: http://jacobian.org/writing/great-documentation/. The articles are themselves well-written and contain excellent advice (though I disagree somewhat with the comments on automatically-generated documentation: I find many libraries are excellently haddocumented). Jacob Kaplan-Moss is a developer on the Django project, which is well known for the quality of its documentation. Some of the advice is decent, but some (e.g., edit on paper, avoid editing and writing simultaneously) I could never bring myself to do; the ability to continuously revise mid-stream is what keeps me *sane*, and the only reason I can write at all. (It probably helps — or hurts? — that I'm positively neurotic when it comes to grammar and usage.) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Card games
On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 8:07 AM, Felipe Lessa felipe.le...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Nov 07, 2009 at 08:46:07AM -0500, Matthias Görgens wrote: Interesting idea. But I guess you should clarify what kind of card games you want to support. E.g, a DSL for trick taking games like Bridge, Skat or Doppelkopf might be different from one that's good for Canasta or Rummy. Or do you aim at Solitaire? I'd suggest starting with a very small scope of the domain for a very first version. Hmm, good catch. I was thinking about solitaire, i.e. single player, games. Multiplayer card games certainly have their own set of interesting challenges. If I ever get to develop something capable of expressing nicely Patience, Spider, Pyramid and Black Hole I'll be more than satisfied :). I'd be interested in something which could model games of Dominion [1], as it's my current addiction; it's a (non-collectable) card game where you build and tune your deck as you play, and aside from money and victory point cards (which are always available) randomly has available ten possible action card types to buy each game (out of the total set of action card types — 76, as of the latest expansion). There have already been various basic analyses of various possible strategies assuming simple rules; if a strategy can't beat the baseline strategy Big Money (which involves buying nothing but money and victory points the entire game), it should probably be scrapped. [1] http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/36218 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Announce: language-python version 0.2 now available
On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 7:03 AM, Bernie Pope florbit...@gmail.com wrote: I'm pleased to announce that version 0.2 of the language-python package is now available on hackage: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/language-python language-python provides lexical analysis and parsing for Python. Thanks for working on this; coming from a Python background (and still using Python at work), this sounds like a fun way to combine my efforts at learning Haskell with something that might actually prove useful for my day job (as I haven't been happy with any of the Python lint tools out there). :-) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hoogle is great but ...
On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 9:11 AM, David Leimbach leim...@gmail.com wrote: or the printf implementation. I tried to figure it out, then the Cenobites came and got me. QOTW, if I may say so. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage down
On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 3:30 AM, Dougal Stanton dou...@dougalstanton.net wrote: Has not been responding for at least the last 12 hours. Is there somewhere to look for status reports on sysadmin details like this, so we can tell if Or even better, might it be possible to look into setting up a fallback mirror of Hackage? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Documentation (was: ANN: text 0.5, a major revision of the Unicode text library)
On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 4:32 PM, Kyle Murphy orc...@gmail.com wrote: If they have to spend three hours trying to track down some obscure research paper that's referenced in your documentation a half dozen times in as many functions, you're not providing enough detail and assuming too great a knowledge of the domain. Even just a paragraph or two giving some background information and example use cases would help immensely here; sometimes I just want to quickly assess whether a library might be useful for solving a particular problem, and go read this paper stops me cold. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: [Haskell-beginners] map question
On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 5:34 PM, Will Ness will_...@yahoo.com wrote: This syntax already exists. The '`' symbol is non-collating already, so using it for symbol chars doesn't change anything (it's not that it can be a part of some name, right?). To turn an infix op into an infix op is an id operation, made illegal artificially at the scan phase after a successful lex (or whatever). If I've accidentally applied syntax meant for a prefix operator to an infix operator, *I want the compiler to tell me*, and not to silently accept my mistake. Not a hack, a solution. A consistent one. Look: (`foldl` 0) (`-` 2) Don't they look exactly the same? No, because the latter is applying prefix-to-infix syntax to an infix operator. It's understood that non-alphanumerics are infix by default, and I want the compiler to scream at me if I try to use one where it expected a prefix op. Why wouldn't it be made legal? Show me one inconsistency it introduces. You've said that you want to be able to do this for the sole case of the - (minus-sign) operator: Operators are great because they make our intent visible, immediately apparent. Long words' meaning, like subtract's, is not immediately apparent, and they break consistency. Not everyone's first language in life was English, you see. I don't buy this rationale. Haskell has plenty of English words as function names all over the place; if you can't handle subtract, how are you handling Haskell at all? Sure, the minus-sign issue is a wart, but it's less awkward than the solution you propose for a problem I doubt you really have. :-) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Cal, Clojure, Groovy, Haskell, OCaml, etc.
On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 11:45 AM, namekuseijin namekusei...@gmail.com wrote: I've not been following Haskell too much and am completely lost when reading code like that. I understand (+1), : and ! but what the hell are . and $ for? Function composition and lowest-precedence function application, respectively. And that weird monad symbol in the Haskell logo is not even used! = Not quite the worst example of such line noise much of Haskell idiomatic code uses nowadays, though. That's the monadic bind operator. As far as sugar, I think you've got it backwards — the do syntax is sugar for = and friends. :-) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Cal, Clojure, Groovy, Haskell, OCaml, etc.
On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 9:50 PM, Hong Yang hyang...@gmail.com wrote: Good libraries are not enough for a language to go beyond mere existence. There must exist good documents, i.e., good tutorials, good books, and good explanations and examples in the libraries, etc, that are easy for people to learn and use. In my humble opinion, Haskell has a lot of libraries, but most of them offer few examples of how to use the modules. In this regards, Perl is much much better. This. As an experienced Pythonista but a beginning Haskeller, there is *no way* I would have been able to wrap my head around the basics of Haskell without the tutorage of Learn You A Haskell, Real World Haskell, and various smaller tutorials scattered around the Haskell wiki — but I still find the array of libraries confusing (just what comes with GHC — I'm not even talking about Hackage here), since the documentation seems to be quite terse compared to Python's docs. I'm getting better at reading the code directly, but I'm often at a loss for what a particular library is good for in the first place. The library documentation seems to assume a mathematical or (advanced) computer science background, and has no problem sending a reader off to see a journal paper for details — not exactly friendly to those who are trying their hardest to unlearn their imperative ways as it is. ;-) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Cal, Clojure, Groovy, Haskell, OCaml, etc.
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Don Stewart d...@galois.com wrote: korpios: wiki — but I still find the array of libraries confusing (just what comes with GHC — I'm not even talking about Hackage here), since the What comes with GHC is the Haskell Platform these days. Actually, the other way around. GHC comes with the Haskell Platform. http://haskell.org/platform/ The contents of which are specified here: http://haskell.org/platform/contents.html I'm talking about poking around here randomly: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/index.html ... and trying to figure out what a given library does — not for the sake of selecting it among other options (the Platform idea), but just as part of getting a grip on Haskell's standard library, as it were. Put another way, I'm doing the opposite of the Platform — instead of saying I have requirement X, what library would be the best match?, I'm asking Hmm, hello library Y, what could I use you for? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Snow Leopard breaks GHC
On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 10:38 AM, Christian Maederchristian.mae...@dfki.de wrote: Or runghc form /usr/bin? /usr/bin/runghc is a symlink to the same file as runhaskell. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Snow Leopard Breaks GHC
On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 3:14 AM, Christian Maederchristian.mae...@dfki.de wrote: It seems, bootstrapping cabal went wrong. Does http://hackage.haskell.org/platform/2009.2.0.2/haskell-platform-2009.2.0.2-i386.dmg work? Installing the Haskell Platform package, combined with adding the previously mentioned options to /usr/bin/ghc (-optc-m32 -opta-m32 -optl-m32), seems to have done the trick. Thank you! ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Snow Leopard Breaks GHC
On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 7:18 PM, Dmitri Sosnikdim...@gmail.com wrote: On 31/08/2009, at 9:02 PM, Christian Maeder wrote: Dmitri Sosnik wrote: How I can tell gcc to generate 32 bit code? I've tried to set CFLAGS=-m32, but it doesn't work. (Flags do not work -- without Makefile) Pass Stupid me :-) -optc-m32 -opta-m32 -optl-m32 Yep, it work. Thanks! Hmm ... running Snow Leopard here, I added these arguments to my /usr/bin/ghc (and my /usr/bin/ghci, and /usr/bin/runhaskell, for good measure), and I end up getting the following error on cabal update after installing cabal-install: * cabal: user error (Codec.Compression.Zlib: incompatible version) * Earlier in the cabal-install bootstrap process, I get the following line: * ld: warning: in /Library/Frameworks/GHC.framework/Versions/610/usr/lib/ghc-6.10.4/libgmp.a, file is not of required architecture * I'm guessing something's still not being set to 32-bit? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Chicago Haskell User Group?
There isn't a Chicago-area Haskell group, is there? If not, would anyone be interested in forming one? I used to run Chicago's Django (a Python web framework) group, but lost interest (and since I lived in the suburbs back then, got sick of the commute). Unlike Python, I'm still very much a beginner with Haskell, so I feel I'd be able to benefit quite a bit from picking the brains of more skilled users and cooperating with other beginners. My particular interests are web development (as that's my professional field) and multimedia organization (I'm working on a Haskell audio tagging library to help teach myself the language), but I'm open to learning just about anything. :-) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Chicago Haskell User Group?
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 4:45 PM, Jeremy Shawjer...@n-heptane.com wrote: Personally, I would recommend using a facebook page as a means of communicating within the group. Okay: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Chicago-IL/Chicago-Haskell-User-Group/115989593098 I hope that's the correct public-facing link, since Facebook's administration interfaces are a bit confusing. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Chicago Haskell User Group?
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 6:21 PM, Jeremy Shawjer...@n-heptane.com wrote: Or you can make me an admin, and I'll do it. I did that; feel free to go ahead and dress up the page. ^_^ A logo somehow incorporating elements of the skyline into the new Haskell logo would be cute, if you (or anyone else) is artistically inclined. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Thinking about what's missing in our library coverage
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 10:19 AM, Colin Paul Adamsco...@colina.demon.co.uk wrote: Just because a library is blessed, doesn't mean you have to use it. Then I'm not sure I understand the point of blessing it in a set of libraries that saves you the task of picking and choosing the best Haskell libraries and tools to use for a task if task (in the second mention) is limited to developing GPL'd software. The picking and choosing problem immediately comes back for everyone else, leaving the platform with second-class users who are forced to evaluate the libraries to make sure they're legally compatible — defeating the purpose of the platform. This can surely be tackled by cabal, as it already has the license information. I don't see this as a real solution; why would a package be added to the platform in the first place if a large proportion of developers couldn't make use of it? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Thinking about what's missing in our library coverage
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Colin Paul Adamsco...@colina.demon.co.uk wrote: Tom == Tom Tobin korp...@korpios.com writes: This can surely be tackled by cabal, as it already has the license information. Tom I don't see this as a real solution; why would a package be It should be done anyway, irrespective of the platform. Yes, that would be handy option for cabal-install in general. Tom added to the platform in the first place if a large Tom proportion of developers couldn't make use of it? Anyone can make use of it. You may choose not to (or your boss may choose for you), but that doesn't mean you can't. The benefit of a standard library is that you can say I need a library to handle X and if a library addressing X is in the standard library, you're set. If you then need to worry about the GPL — and this is a reality that can't be written off as a mere choice — why bother with the platform in the first place? Non-GPL developers would be better off sticking with hackage in that case. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
