Re: [hlds] [hlds_linux] Suddenly very low server population
Except for newer players, there is no scoring bonus to Valve servers *in aggregate*. We are currently introducing bias on an individual basis. Some users get a score boost for Valve servers, but a group of players of equal size gets a score boost of equal size towards community servers. (Basically we double the ping score for either Valve or community servers, depending on which group the player is in.) The majority of players are in a control group with no bias. We have said publicly that we removed the scoring bonus to Valve servers so that quickplay would treat Valve servers and community servers equally, because we did not think we fully understood the tradeoffs between having more control over the player experience (Valve servers), and allowing customization and moderation (community servers). This experiment is an attempt by us to be even more explicit in measuring the effects. I do not think that this experiment is the cause of anybody's trouble populating their server, for the following reasons: First, the experiment has a symmetric effect on Valve servers and community servers. Second, the control group, which receives no bias either way, is larger than either experimental group. Finally, the majority of server connections these days are still made through the server browser. (Somewhere around 65%.) Quickplay accounts for less than 20% of all server connections. (The other 15-20% or so are direct connections, friends accepting invites, launching with connect on the command line, etc.) If you want to know what scoring adjustment is applied to you personally, based on your playtime, just look at the console output during quickplay. If you want a detailed server-by-server breakdown to understand exactly how it's making its decisions, set tf_matchmaking_spew_level 4 and it will show you exactly how it works. The noob map bonus adjusts the score for new players only, depending on what map is currently run. It applies the same for Valve and community servers. - Fletch -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Robert Paulson Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 9:30 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Suddenly very low server population You know this because every post on spuf has the hours people play next to it? You didn't know people put their profiles on SPUF? Shows how much you know. Do you think the country would be better if someone decided that meant they should accommodate every whinge and that would make a better country? If not, why do you think that approach would make a better game or a better server? This is the reason why CS and CSS both have more players than TF2 if you don't include the idlers which you can estimate by peak players. And Valve did accommodate people who wanted to play on modded servers before. Just because you are happy playing default TF2 doesn't mean everyone else is. I prefer more variety of maps and gameplay instead of deathmatch with a single control point (koth), control points, moving control point (payload), capture the flag, reskinned weapons, and waiting 20 seconds to respawn. I have seen a lot of regulars on my friends list stop TF2 and playing COD, Tribes, Dota 2, and SMNC instead because Valve depopulated modded servers. But I don't see any reason at all for anyone to run lots of servers and then, once in debt, to worry about how they are going to pay for them. Not sure why you think I am saying there needs to be a business model for the server hosters. I'm saying why Valve won't do anything about it. It isn't immoral for server to at least break even. And you get discounts for running more servers. You have been trolling this mailing list hard. On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 8:20 AM, dan needa...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 26/04/2012 22:00, Robert Paulson wrote: I warned about this trend back in December and no one listened. Now that the Christmas and Policy of Truth honeymoon is over, you are all coming out of the woodwork. What trend? That people are happily playing TF2? As I said, the complaint seems to be my server is empty ergo people must be too dumb to know my server is better or how to join it, or valve must be stealing all the people onto their dumbed down servers or quickplay must be broken The truth seems far removed from that, even if a bug does exist in quickplay. And this coming out the woodwork is about 3 or 4 people making lots of posts. Some of which don't necessarily agree with the conspiratorial theory. Though I guess it only makes sense to complain out of desperation now that Lotus and others are dropping heavily in popularity. I'm not surprised they dropped. Their servers don't even seem to have any of the redeeming features that some of you think matter. As I said before, people deciding to make
[hlds] Mandatory TF2 update coming
We're working on a mandatory update for TF2. We should have it ready soon. -Eric ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] [hlds_linux] Suddenly very low server population
I suppose my disappointment with the quickplay system simply lies in the fact that it is a left-handed way of adding the custom server tab back onto the server browser (I'm sure every server operator out there remembers the effect that had on traffic - if your server was anything but 100% vanilla, than the custom server tab killed it on the spot). Further - the fact that the choices for quickplay are limited to vanilla only seemingly runs contrary to the direction Valve has pursued with TF2 for year - that of strong community-oriented server operation and customization. There can be no doubt that - while quickplay connections may only account for less than 20% of overall traffic, that's nearly 1/5th of (mostly new) TF2 users that may never get to experience a non-vanillaserver (to include the plethora of awesome custom maps out there). Heck - we run a custom payload server that stays full to the rafters for 16-18 hours a day, and runs 26 (at last count) high-quality custom payload maps. The server is hugely popular, but rarely sees any of these newer players, simply because they are being trainednot to seek out such servers, and quickplay lacks any options for them to do so. I personally think a better solution would be to add a set of checkboxes to the quickplay system that would give the player the CHOICE to be connected to a modded server. To insure newer players would know the difference between vanilla and modded, you could simply leave those choice disabled until the player has X amount of hours in the game, or has played at least one of each official map type, etc. I full understand that Valve and the TF2 team have a specific idea about what kind of settings they think their game should run at...but for every player screaming on SPUF about hating this or that non-vanilla feature, I can show you a dozen players that scream anytime I try to move their favorite custom server settings (respawn times, class balance, etc) closer to Vanilla. I really don't see the reason for any animosity from either the Vanilla OR the custom server camp - there is plenty of choices out there no matter what kind of server you want to play on. Having said that, turning custom server operators into second-class citizens this late into TF2's life cycle by effectively insuring 15-20% of overall REAL (i.e. non idling) TF2 traffic (which is in decline) never even have the option of connecting to one of those servers really (IMHO) devalues all the work we've put into building communities around TF2. I'm not asking that quickplay players get randomly sent to a custom server against their will...I'm just asking that they be given the OPTION of connecting to one. Quickplay could be the StumbleUpon button for the server browser, but if it continues to force the players into vanilla-only servers, all they get every single time is random sameness. Again, I have nothing against vanilla servers - I run 5 of them myself. I simply think that TF2's real strength (and the reason for its longevity) lies in the variety that community-driven servers bring to the table. I fully agree with any and all actions that have been taken against those operators that were cheating the systembut the traffic penalty that custom server operators have effectively received, after hosting servers for years, is undeserved at best. All I ask is that ALL players be given the *option* of connecting to a modded server, to include those that use quickplay. It should always be (IMHO) be about player choice, not player control. Once you start prioritizing controlling the experience over maximizing player choice, then I think the mindset has fundamentally changed. On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 1:17 PM, Fletcher Dunn fletch...@valvesoftware.comwrote: Except for newer players, there is no scoring bonus to Valve servers *in aggregate*. We are currently introducing bias on an individual basis. Some users get a score boost for Valve servers, but a group of players of equal size gets a score boost of equal size towards community servers. (Basically we double the ping score for either Valve or community servers, depending on which group the player is in.) The majority of players are in a control group with no bias. We have said publicly that we removed the scoring bonus to Valve servers so that quickplay would treat Valve servers and community servers equally, because we did not think we fully understood the tradeoffs between having more control over the player experience (Valve servers), and allowing customization and moderation (community servers). This experiment is an attempt by us to be even more explicit in measuring the effects. I do not think that this experiment is the cause of anybody's trouble populating their server, for the following reasons: First, the experiment has a symmetric effect on Valve servers and community servers. Second, the control group, which receives no bias either way, is larger than either experimental group.
[hlds] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 Update Released
We've released a mandatory update to Team Fortress 2. The notes for the update are below. -Eric -- Source Engine Changes (TF2, DoD:S, HL2:DM) - Fixed a problem that allowed malicious clients to disable the ping and status commands for other connected clients Team Fortress 2 - Added The Toss-Proof Towel - Fixed a bug that caused many avatar images to not show up in the scoreboard - Fixed the Sharpened Volcano Fragment not igniting players - Fixed damage to buildings applying on-hit effects such as the Übersaw charge - Fixed Sticky Jumper stickybombs changing team when air-blasted - Fixed large floating point values getting truncated in WebAPI responses - sǝlıℲ uoıʇɐʇɐzılɐɔo˥ pǝʇɐpd∩ - Community request - Added SetForcedTauntCam player input for map makers to place the player into third-person ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] [hlds_linux] Suddenly very low server population
Is there an official way to tell when a player connects from quickplay? Because based on your stats it seems I'm logging the wrong thing. That or the servers are just very quick play dependent which leads to different stats and that is the problem there. On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 1:17 PM, Fletcher Dunn fletch...@valvesoftware.comwrote: Except for newer players, there is no scoring bonus to Valve servers *in aggregate*. We are currently introducing bias on an individual basis. Some users get a score boost for Valve servers, but a group of players of equal size gets a score boost of equal size towards community servers. (Basically we double the ping score for either Valve or community servers, depending on which group the player is in.) The majority of players are in a control group with no bias. We have said publicly that we removed the scoring bonus to Valve servers so that quickplay would treat Valve servers and community servers equally, because we did not think we fully understood the tradeoffs between having more control over the player experience (Valve servers), and allowing customization and moderation (community servers). This experiment is an attempt by us to be even more explicit in measuring the effects. I do not think that this experiment is the cause of anybody's trouble populating their server, for the following reasons: First, the experiment has a symmetric effect on Valve servers and community servers. Second, the control group, which receives no bias either way, is larger than either experimental group. Finally, the majority of server connections these days are still made through the server browser. (Somewhere around 65%.) Quickplay accounts for less than 20% of all server connections. (The other 15-20% or so are direct connections, friends accepting invites, launching with connect on the command line, etc.) If you want to know what scoring adjustment is applied to you personally, based on your playtime, just look at the console output during quickplay. If you want a detailed server-by-server breakdown to understand exactly how it's making its decisions, set tf_matchmaking_spew_level 4 and it will show you exactly how it works. The noob map bonus adjusts the score for new players only, depending on what map is currently run. It applies the same for Valve and community servers. - Fletch -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Robert Paulson Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 9:30 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Suddenly very low server population You know this because every post on spuf has the hours people play next to it? You didn't know people put their profiles on SPUF? Shows how much you know. Do you think the country would be better if someone decided that meant they should accommodate every whinge and that would make a better country? If not, why do you think that approach would make a better game or a better server? This is the reason why CS and CSS both have more players than TF2 if you don't include the idlers which you can estimate by peak players. And Valve did accommodate people who wanted to play on modded servers before. Just because you are happy playing default TF2 doesn't mean everyone else is. I prefer more variety of maps and gameplay instead of deathmatch with a single control point (koth), control points, moving control point (payload), capture the flag, reskinned weapons, and waiting 20 seconds to respawn. I have seen a lot of regulars on my friends list stop TF2 and playing COD, Tribes, Dota 2, and SMNC instead because Valve depopulated modded servers. But I don't see any reason at all for anyone to run lots of servers and then, once in debt, to worry about how they are going to pay for them. Not sure why you think I am saying there needs to be a business model for the server hosters. I'm saying why Valve won't do anything about it. It isn't immoral for server to at least break even. And you get discounts for running more servers. You have been trolling this mailing list hard. On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 8:20 AM, dan needa...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 26/04/2012 22:00, Robert Paulson wrote: I warned about this trend back in December and no one listened. Now that the Christmas and Policy of Truth honeymoon is over, you are all coming out of the woodwork. What trend? That people are happily playing TF2? As I said, the complaint seems to be my server is empty ergo people must be too dumb to know my server is better or how to join it, or valve must be stealing all the people onto their dumbed down servers or quickplay must be broken The truth seems far removed from that, even if a bug does exist in quickplay. And this coming out the woodwork is about 3 or 4 people making lots of posts. Some of
Re: [hlds] Mandatory Team Fortress 2 Update Released
So, uhh, what's this flag, and why is it on every demo/soldier item? :) can_be_equipped_by_soldier_or_demo 1 On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 2:23 PM, Eric Smith er...@valvesoftware.com wrote: We've released a mandatory update to Team Fortress 2. The notes for the update are below. -Eric -- Source Engine Changes (TF2, DoD:S, HL2:DM) - Fixed a problem that allowed malicious clients to disable the ping and status commands for other connected clients Team Fortress 2 - Added The Toss-Proof Towel - Fixed a bug that caused many avatar images to not show up in the scoreboard - Fixed the Sharpened Volcano Fragment not igniting players - Fixed damage to buildings applying on-hit effects such as the Übersaw charge - Fixed Sticky Jumper stickybombs changing team when air-blasted - Fixed large floating point values getting truncated in WebAPI responses - sǝlıℲ uoıʇɐʇɐzılɐɔo˥ pǝʇɐpd∩ - Community request - Added SetForcedTauntCam player input for map makers to place the player into third-person ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] [hlds_linux] Suddenly very low server population
http://www.mail-archive.com/hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com/msg61635.html The changelog contains Added a server console message when a player is sent to the server via the matchmaking system, but it doesn't work. Probably the GC does not send the CMsgTFQuickplay_PlayerJoining message to servers. The log message should look like (Quickplay) Incoming player. From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of 1nsane Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 9:25 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] [hlds_linux] Suddenly very low server population Is there an official way to tell when a player connects from quickplay? Because based on your stats it seems I'm logging the wrong thing. That or the servers are just very quick play dependent which leads to different stats and that is the problem there. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] [hlds_linux] Suddenly very low server population
I remember it never showing up. :( On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 3:30 PM, Invalid Protocol invalidprotocolvers...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.mail-archive.com/hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com/msg61635.html ** ** The changelog contains Added a server console message when a player is sent to the server via the matchmaking system, but it doesn’t work. Probably the GC does not send the CMsgTFQuickplay_PlayerJoining message to servers. The log message should look like “(Quickplay) Incoming player”.** ** ** ** *From:* hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] *On Behalf Of *1nsane *Sent:* Friday, April 27, 2012 9:25 PM *To:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list *Subject:* Re: [hlds] [hlds_linux] Suddenly very low server population ** ** Is there an official way to tell when a player connects from quickplay? Because based on your stats it seems I'm logging the wrong thing. That or the servers are just very quick play dependent which leads to different stats and that is the problem there. ** ** ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] [hlds_linux] Suddenly very low server population
I've got to chime in on this. It seems to me that you have the idea of the quickplay system almost totally wrong. I run a couple servers with SourceMod and fairly common plugins including RTV and Pregame Mayhem. As a matter of preference my servers are always set for 24 players. These factors seem to have no effect on the quickplay reputation of my servers. In fact, according to Steam Support (https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=2825-AFGJ-3513) the things that either severely penalize or disqualify servers are settings such as instant respawns and friendly fire, which you cannot deny significantly alter the gameplay of TF2. If we want to talk about actual mods for TF2 then I think you have to talk about things such as PropHunt which are entirely new ways to play the game. Of course those sorts of major overhauls are going to be disqualified since they're not really TF2 anymore. Servers also have to be running official maps to be considered, which I personally think is a good thing. Although I do have many many custom maps on my servers they are not in the standard rotation and can only be selected by admin-initiated votes. To me there is nothing more annoying than to be playing in a server and then have a rotation or regular mapvote switch to a custom map that either takes forever to download or is obnoxiously non-TF2 (RainbowRide I'm looking at you). As it is, quickplayers can still be put into a server with custom maps in its rotation if they go to find a game while the server is on a standard map. Furthermore, this IS Valve's game and they get the final say on how their quickplay button works. Of course it is appreciated when they take community input (which is a lot) and maybe at some point the quickplay system will get overhauled with more options. As Fletcher noted, the vast majority of TF2 players are using the server browser and you cannot even pretend that those are all just veteran players that are pre-F2P. Quickplay doesn't really help any servers build a community. The type of player that uses quickplay frequently will probably continue using quickplay for a while. They're not going to favorite you. They're probably not going to come back, unless the algorithm puts them there again. All quickplay does is put players into servers that have a fairly consistent playing experience. Perhaps I'm in the minority in that I like TF2 with pretty stock rules. -J On Apr 27, 2012, at 2:06 PM, E. Olsen wrote: I suppose my disappointment with the quickplay system simply lies in the fact that it is a left-handed way of adding the custom server tab back onto the server browser (I'm sure every server operator out there remembers the effect that had on traffic - if your server was anything but 100% vanilla, than the custom server tab killed it on the spot). Further - the fact that the choices for quickplay are limited to vanilla only seemingly runs contrary to the direction Valve has pursued with TF2 for year - that of strong community-oriented server operation and customization. There can be no doubt that - while quickplay connections may only account for less than 20% of overall traffic, that's nearly 1/5th of (mostly new) TF2 users that may never get to experience a non-vanillaserver (to include the plethora of awesome custom maps out there). Heck - we run a custom payload server that stays full to the rafters for 16-18 hours a day, and runs 26 (at last count) high-quality custom payload maps. The server is hugely popular, but rarely sees any of these newer players, simply because they are being trainednot to seek out such servers, and quickplay lacks any options for them to do so. I personally think a better solution would be to add a set of checkboxes to the quickplay system that would give the player the CHOICE to be connected to a modded server. To insure newer players would know the difference between vanilla and modded, you could simply leave those choice disabled until the player has X amount of hours in the game, or has played at least one of each official map type, etc. I full understand that Valve and the TF2 team have a specific idea about what kind of settings they think their game should run at...but for every player screaming on SPUF about hating this or that non-vanilla feature, I can show you a dozen players that scream anytime I try to move their favorite custom server settings (respawn times, class balance, etc) closer to Vanilla. I really don't see the reason for any animosity from either the Vanilla OR the custom server camp - there is plenty of choices out there no matter what kind of server you want to play on. Having said that, turning custom server operators into second-class citizens this late into TF2's life cycle by effectively insuring 15-20% of overall REAL (i.e. non idling) TF2 traffic (which is in decline) never even have the option of connecting to one
