[IAEP] [SLOBS] meeting reminder: Tuesday, 28 September
We will be holding a Sugar Oversight Board meeting at 15UTC (11EST) on irc.freenode.net #sugar-meeting. Topics: finalizing the election details -walter -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
[IAEP] New Virtualbox Appliances available please test. Feedback appreciated
Announcement: I have listed a number of Sugar Virtualbox and VMplayer Appliances [1] on the wiki. These should be easy to install and use and be especially useful for Mac Users. Feedback is appreciated. Tom Gilliard satellit [1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Emulator_image_files#Other_virtual_machines ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] [Sur] Hablemos claro y en voz alta - Le t´s speak loud and clear
Tomeu, nuevamente, muchísimas gracias! He leído todo el material que nos enviaste y me fue muy útil, muchas gracias. Una vez más expreso mi preocupación proveniente de lo que he oído en reuniones presenciales y lo que he leído en los foros. Las ideas más importantes en la historia de OLPC parecen haber surgido de la cooperación entre maestros y científicos de computación. El día de hoy, da la impresión de que cada uno de los grupos transita su senda sin que haya toda la colaboración que tal vez debería haber. En el medio de ambas sendas estamos caminando sin mayor dirección los voluntarios, familiares y todos los demás humanos que deseamos ayudar pero que no pertenecemos a ninguno de los dos grupos. En algún momento se habló de unas elecciones sobre las que aparentemente unos pocos iniciados sabían algo. Como es natural de inmediato causó en muchos, preguntas para las que hasta que no pregunté y tú y otros contestaron, no había respuestas claras y simples como las que tenemos hoy. Mi impresión puramente personal después de lo que leí en los últimos días es que elegir a un maestro a un puesto en Sugar Labs, va a hacer muy poco por mejorar esta situación. Pienso que hay un grupo muy importante y muy grande que debe hacerse oír. No hay necesidad de elegirlos a ningún puesto especial para que puedan hablarnos y que todos escuchemos. Estamos en la era de internet. Me refiero a los maestros, a los que saben enseñar, a los que fueron a institutos especializados para aprender a enseñar. Me refiero a los que todos los días ganan nueva experiencia sobre los métodos que emplean para enseñar. Me refiero a los que usan las XO y las herramientas que se proveen para ellas. Esos maestros son los que saben si esas máquinas y esos programas sirven para facilitar su trabajo y mejorar la calidad de su enseñanza, o si no sirven para nada o si podrían servir más si algo de lo mucho que se hace se hiciese de otra manera. Todo lo que hay que hacer es ofrecerles los foros que ya existen y pedir a todos los miembros el mayor respeto a los que en ellos escriban. Propongo que todos hagamos las preguntas que nos inquieten. Propongo que aquellos que han sido entrenados para enseñar y que tienen experiencia diaria de trabajar directamente con estudiantes, de primaria y/o secundaria, nos ayuden con sus respuestas. Es esencial que haya mucho respeto de parte de todos, que no tratemos de asustar o espantar a nadie hablando de cosas difíciles. Que nadie se deje achicar, que todo el que tenga una inquietud, la escriba para aclararla y que así le deje de molestar esa inquietud y pueda pasar al tema siguiente. Sería muy bueno saber de parte de los maestros: Si opinan que están usando las XO y el Plan Ceibal con éxito, que nos cuenten, sin preocuparse por no aparecer modestos, qué es lo que piensan que están haciendo bien. Si tratan de hacer algo y no lo logran, que consulten en los foros, es muy probable que uno o más pueda ofrecer la respuesta acertada y así todos aprenderemos. Si piensan que necesitan una herramienta más o algún otro elemento para lograr mejores resultados, que lo digan en voz alta y alguien responderá. Si opinan que las XO y el Plan Ceibal no sirven para nada, pues que nos digan por qué tienen esa opinión. Pueden buscar palabras más diplomáticas que las mías, con tal que no se pierda la claridad del mensaje. Como sucede frecuentemente hasta tal vez ellos mismos encuentren la respuesta solos al tratar de formular la pregunta. Si no es así alguien les contestará. Carlos Rabassa Voluntario Red de Apoyo al Plan Ceibal Montevideo, Uruguay On Sep 24, 2010, at 6:22 AM, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: Hola Carlos, muy buenas preguntas, respondo abajo: 2010/9/24 Carlos Rabassa car...@mac.com: ENGLISH TRANSLATION FOLLOWS THE SPANISH TEXT Hemos leído en los foros unos cuantos mensajes sobre unas elecciones relacionadas con Sugar. Como sucede frecuentemente, muchos hablamos, pocos entendemos y menos preguntamos. Alguien tiene que romper el círculo vicioso para bien de todos. Eso es lo que trato de hacer. No escribo entre líneas. No imaginen cosas raras. El que no entienda que pregunte y se abstenga de hablar hasta haber entendido. Mucho agradecería que alguien que sepa sobre las elecciones Sugar, nos explique a todos. SI escriben en el idioma que se conoce como Plain English, que en algunos países se exige en muchos documentos legales que involucran al público en general, que significa, Inglés sin palabras técnicas, Inglés comprensible por el público en general, y si escriben algo con largo razonable, con mucho gusto lo traduciré al Español internacional sencillo. Pienso que esto es lo que deseamos saber los que han expresado ideas en los foros y yo: 1 - Breve explicación sobre los orígenes y organización básica de la institución, que llamaré Sugar para simplificar,
Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy?
Gerald did some interesting work last year introducing both Scratch and eToys to 5th and 8th graders. Gerald please correct me if I am misremembering. I think the results were the 8th graders took to Scratch more and the 5th graders took to eToys more. Our hypothesis is that the first thing you do with eToys in draw and that is very accessible to 5th graders. They can engage with the system before they have to start understanding programming. On the other hand 8th graders were directly ready to engage with programming and had a easier/faster time picking that up with Scratch. This is very much a hypothesis, not proven and not based on much data but it would be interesting to explore further. On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.com wrote: OK, I'll send it to you separately. Anybody else is still welcome to join in. On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 20:47, Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com wrote: Edward, Thanks, please send me the outline and what you think needs to be more easily discoverable and I will work on it. Stephen On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.com wrote: It is true that you can do all of these things in EToys, if you know where to start. It is also true that the start screen of EToys could be improved by providing a path to each of them, and to other education modules, and Etoys could be improved with a few more introductory modules. Since children and untrained teachers cannot be expected to discover these paths, and paths in other Activities, on their own, I am in the middle of writing a guide to Discovery on the XO. The starting point is my Wiki page, http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/The_Undiscoverable http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick The undiscoverable is an unofficial FAQ for tips, tricks, and solutions to common problems that may otherwise be tricky to find. These are being considered for inclusion in the official SoaS documentation. The Etoys section needs vast expansion. I have an outline in mind, which I can share with anybody who would like to work on it. On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 15:59, Tim McNamara paperl...@timmcnamara.co.nz wrote: The analogy doesn't quite fit, as it's possible to do complex things in all of those tools and it's easy to do simple things in EToys. Each Activity can be used in this learning model, e.g. training wheels to motorbike. Tim On 25 September 2010 05:48, Cherry Withers cwith...@ekindling.org wrote: And Scratch? ... don't remember where I read it, but it sounded logical to me. Use progressively difficult tools for progressively difficult tasks. To confirm this statement, I add the phrase: Visible learning, invisible technology. Children would first learn TurtleArt. When they outgrow it switch to Scratch. When all its possibilities are exhausted, continue with eToys. ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep -- Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination. http://www.earthtreasury.org/ ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep -- Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination. http://www.earthtreasury.org/ ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep -- Caroline Meeks Solution Grove carol...@solutiongrove.com 617-500-3488 - Office 505-213-3268 - Fax ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy?
Hi Caroline, I think this is a good observation. And it's interesting because Etoys and Scratch were both done on top of Squeak, and by some of the same people. Originally Etoys was aimed at 5th graders and Scratch at high schoolers who dropped into afternoon computer clubs. There is a lot of overlap, and some important differences. The original Etoy interface was set up more like the current Scratch one (using lots of the screen to show tools and having a small construction area). This changed when we started working in schools with teachers and materials (this allowed a less immediately visible UI to be used and the entire screen to be used for construction). We stayed with this because of the small size of the XO's screen. But I don't think there's any question that the current Scratch interface is much much better for new users off the street if you have a large enough screen or can use iPad like scaling. And I think despite the small size of the XO, that we should have gone back to a much more visible interface for it and for general use as gotten from the web etc. There is much to be learned from both systems. Cheers, Alan From: Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com To: Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.com Cc: Cherry Withers cwith...@ekindling.org; Tim McNamara paperl...@timmcnamara.co.nz; danielgast...@yahoo.com.ar; Gerald Ardito gerald.ard...@gmail.com; Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com; iaep iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org Sent: Mon, September 27, 2010 9:21:16 AM Subject: Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy? Gerald did some interesting work last year introducing both Scratch and eToys to 5th and 8th graders. Gerald please correct me if I am misremembering. I think the results were the 8th graders took to Scratch more and the 5th graders took to eToys more. Our hypothesis is that the first thing you do with eToys in draw and that is very accessible to 5th graders. They can engage with the system before they have to start understanding programming. On the other hand 8th graders were directly ready to engage with programming and had a easier/faster time picking that up with Scratch. This is very much a hypothesis, not proven and not based on much data but it would be interesting to explore further. On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.com wrote: OK, I'll send it to you separately. Anybody else is still welcome to join in. On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 20:47, Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com wrote: Edward, Thanks, please send me the outline and what you think needs to be more easily discoverable and I will work on it. Stephen On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.com wrote: It is true that you can do all of these things in EToys, if you know where to start. It is also true that the start screen of EToys could be improved by providing a path to each of them, and to other education modules, and Etoys could be improved with a few more introductory modules. Since children and untrained teachers cannot be expected to discover these paths, and paths in other Activities, on their own, I am in the middle of writing a guide to Discovery on the XO. The starting point is my Wiki page, http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/The_Undiscoverable http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick The undiscoverable is an unofficial FAQ for tips, tricks, and solutions to common problems that may otherwise be tricky to find. These are being considered for inclusion in the official SoaS documentation. The Etoys section needs vast expansion. I have an outline in mind, which I can share with anybody who would like to work on it. On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 15:59, Tim McNamara paperl...@timmcnamara.co.nz wrote: The analogy doesn't quite fit, as it's possible to do complex things in all of those tools and it's easy to do simple things in EToys. Each Activity can be used in this learning model, e.g. training wheels to motorbike. Tim On 25 September 2010 05:48, Cherry Withers cwith...@ekindling.org wrote: And Scratch? ... don't remember where I read it, but it sounded logical to me. Use progressively difficult tools for progressively difficult tasks. To confirm this statement, I add the phrase: Visible learning, invisible technology. Children would first learn TurtleArt. When they outgrow it switch to Scratch. When all its possibilities are exhausted, continue with eToys. ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep -- Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination. http://www.earthtreasury.org/ ___ IAEP -- It's An Education
Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy?
On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi Caroline, I think this is a good observation. And it's interesting because Etoys and Scratch were both done on top of Squeak, and by some of the same people. Originally Etoys was aimed at 5th graders and Scratch at high schoolers who dropped into afternoon computer clubs. There is a lot of overlap, and some important differences. The original Etoy interface was set up more like the current Scratch one (using lots of the screen to show tools and having a small construction area). This changed when we started working in schools with teachers and materials (this allowed a less immediately visible UI to be used and the entire screen to be used for construction). We stayed with this because of the small size of the XO's screen. But I don't think there's any question that the current Scratch interface is much much better for new users off the street if you have a large enough screen or can use iPad like scaling. And I think despite the small size of the XO, that we should have gone back to a much more visible interface for it and for general use as gotten from the web etc. The TurtleArt approach is similar to Etoys, except you can show/hide all of the construction work as an overlay over the workspace with just one mouse click or keyboard shortcut. Might be a compromise worth exploring further. regards. -walter There is much to be learned from both systems. Cheers, Alan From: Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com To: Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.com Cc: Cherry Withers cwith...@ekindling.org; Tim McNamara paperl...@timmcnamara.co.nz; danielgast...@yahoo.com.ar; Gerald Ardito gerald.ard...@gmail.com; Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com; iaep iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org Sent: Mon, September 27, 2010 9:21:16 AM Subject: Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy? Gerald did some interesting work last year introducing both Scratch and eToys to 5th and 8th graders. Gerald please correct me if I am misremembering. I think the results were the 8th graders took to Scratch more and the 5th graders took to eToys more. Our hypothesis is that the first thing you do with eToys in draw and that is very accessible to 5th graders. They can engage with the system before they have to start understanding programming. On the other hand 8th graders were directly ready to engage with programming and had a easier/faster time picking that up with Scratch. This is very much a hypothesis, not proven and not based on much data but it would be interesting to explore further. On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.com wrote: OK, I'll send it to you separately. Anybody else is still welcome to join in. On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 20:47, Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com wrote: Edward, Thanks, please send me the outline and what you think needs to be more easily discoverable and I will work on it. Stephen On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.com wrote: It is true that you can do all of these things in EToys, if you know where to start. It is also true that the start screen of EToys could be improved by providing a path to each of them, and to other education modules, and Etoys could be improved with a few more introductory modules. Since children and untrained teachers cannot be expected to discover these paths, and paths in other Activities, on their own, I am in the middle of writing a guide to Discovery on the XO. The starting point is my Wiki page, http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/The_Undiscoverable http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick The undiscoverable is an unofficial FAQ for tips, tricks, and solutions to common problems that may otherwise be tricky to find. These are being considered for inclusion in the official SoaS documentation. The Etoys section needs vast expansion. I have an outline in mind, which I can share with anybody who would like to work on it. On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 15:59, Tim McNamara paperl...@timmcnamara.co.nz wrote: The analogy doesn't quite fit, as it's possible to do complex things in all of those tools and it's easy to do simple things in EToys. Each Activity can be used in this learning model, e.g. training wheels to motorbike. Tim On 25 September 2010 05:48, Cherry Withers cwith...@ekindling.org wrote: And Scratch? ... don't remember where I read it, but it sounded logical to me. Use progressively difficult tools for progressively difficult tasks. To confirm this statement, I add the phrase: Visible learning, invisible technology. Children would first learn TurtleArt. When they outgrow it switch to Scratch. When all its possibilities are exhausted, continue with eToys. ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project
Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy?
Hi Walter, Yes, we experimented with this in the early days of the XO (using Alpha blending to put two virtual screens over each other). It worked pretty well (done by Scott Wallace) but the XO in those days was not so great at graphics. Maybe just having a mode is good enough (didn't seem so at the time). Cheers, Alan From: Walter Bender walter.ben...@gmail.com To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com Cc: Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com; Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.com; Cherry Withers cwith...@ekindling.org; Gerald Ardito gerald.ard...@gmail.com; danielgast...@yahoo.com.ar; Tim McNamara paperl...@timmcnamara.co.nz; Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com; iaep iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org Sent: Mon, September 27, 2010 10:38:20 AM Subject: Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy? On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi Caroline, I think this is a good observation. And it's interesting because Etoys and Scratch were both done on top of Squeak, and by some of the same people. Originally Etoys was aimed at 5th graders and Scratch at high schoolers who dropped into afternoon computer clubs. There is a lot of overlap, and some important differences. The original Etoy interface was set up more like the current Scratch one (using lots of the screen to show tools and having a small construction area). This changed when we started working in schools with teachers and materials (this allowed a less immediately visible UI to be used and the entire screen to be used for construction). We stayed with this because of the small size of the XO's screen. But I don't think there's any question that the current Scratch interface is much much better for new users off the street if you have a large enough screen or can use iPad like scaling. And I think despite the small size of the XO, that we should have gone back to a much more visible interface for it and for general use as gotten from the web etc. The TurtleArt approach is similar to Etoys, except you can show/hide all of the construction work as an overlay over the workspace with just one mouse click or keyboard shortcut. Might be a compromise worth exploring further. regards. -walter There is much to be learned from both systems. Cheers, Alan From: Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com To: Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.com Cc: Cherry Withers cwith...@ekindling.org; Tim McNamara paperl...@timmcnamara.co.nz; danielgast...@yahoo.com.ar; Gerald Ardito gerald.ard...@gmail.com; Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com; iaep iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org Sent: Mon, September 27, 2010 9:21:16 AM Subject: Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy? Gerald did some interesting work last year introducing both Scratch and eToys to 5th and 8th graders. Gerald please correct me if I am misremembering. I think the results were the 8th graders took to Scratch more and the 5th graders took to eToys more. Our hypothesis is that the first thing you do with eToys in draw and that is very accessible to 5th graders. They can engage with the system before they have to start understanding programming. On the other hand 8th graders were directly ready to engage with programming and had a easier/faster time picking that up with Scratch. This is very much a hypothesis, not proven and not based on much data but it would be interesting to explore further. On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.com wrote: OK, I'll send it to you separately. Anybody else is still welcome to join in. On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 20:47, Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com wrote: Edward, Thanks, please send me the outline and what you think needs to be more easily discoverable and I will work on it. Stephen On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.com wrote: It is true that you can do all of these things in EToys, if you know where to start. It is also true that the start screen of EToys could be improved by providing a path to each of them, and to other education modules, and Etoys could be improved with a few more introductory modules. Since children and untrained teachers cannot be expected to discover these paths, and paths in other Activities, on their own, I am in the middle of writing a guide to Discovery on the XO. The starting point is my Wiki page, http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/The_Undiscoverable http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick The undiscoverable is an unofficial FAQ for tips, tricks, and solutions to common problems that may otherwise be tricky to find. These are being considered for inclusion in the official SoaS documentation. The Etoys section needs vast expansion. I have an outline in mind, which I can share with anybody who would like to work on it. On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 15:59, Tim McNamara paperl...@timmcnamara.co.nz
Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy?
Caroline, You are remembering well. And I agree with your hypothesis. The 5th graders took pretty well to Etoys. It is the drawing piece that hooks them, and then the scripting part that really challenges them. And the 7th and 8th graders love Scratch. It is interesting to me because they also do plenty of painting of sprites and backgrounds, but something about the bricks seems to match their thinking process. I am getting ready to introduce my current 7th grade classes to Scratch and am looking forward to that. Thanks. Gerald On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 12:21 PM, Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com wrote: Gerald did some interesting work last year introducing both Scratch and eToys to 5th and 8th graders. Gerald please correct me if I am misremembering. I think the results were the 8th graders took to Scratch more and the 5th graders took to eToys more. Our hypothesis is that the first thing you do with eToys in draw and that is very accessible to 5th graders. They can engage with the system before they have to start understanding programming. On the other hand 8th graders were directly ready to engage with programming and had a easier/faster time picking that up with Scratch. This is very much a hypothesis, not proven and not based on much data but it would be interesting to explore further. On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.comwrote: OK, I'll send it to you separately. Anybody else is still welcome to join in. On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 20:47, Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com wrote: Edward, Thanks, please send me the outline and what you think needs to be more easily discoverable and I will work on it. Stephen On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.com wrote: It is true that you can do all of these things in EToys, if you know where to start. It is also true that the start screen of EToys could be improved by providing a path to each of them, and to other education modules, and Etoys could be improved with a few more introductory modules. Since children and untrained teachers cannot be expected to discover these paths, and paths in other Activities, on their own, I am in the middle of writing a guide to Discovery on the XO. The starting point is my Wiki page, http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/The_Undiscoverable http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick The undiscoverable is an unofficial FAQ for tips, tricks, and solutions to common problems that may otherwise be tricky to find. These are being considered for inclusion in the official SoaS documentation. The Etoys section needs vast expansion. I have an outline in mind, which I can share with anybody who would like to work on it. On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 15:59, Tim McNamara paperl...@timmcnamara.co.nz wrote: The analogy doesn't quite fit, as it's possible to do complex things in all of those tools and it's easy to do simple things in EToys. Each Activity can be used in this learning model, e.g. training wheels to motorbike. Tim On 25 September 2010 05:48, Cherry Withers cwith...@ekindling.org wrote: And Scratch? ... don't remember where I read it, but it sounded logical to me. Use progressively difficult tools for progressively difficult tasks. To confirm this statement, I add the phrase: Visible learning, invisible technology. Children would first learn TurtleArt. When they outgrow it switch to Scratch. When all its possibilities are exhausted, continue with eToys. ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep -- Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination. http://www.earthtreasury.org/ ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep -- Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination. http://www.earthtreasury.org/ ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep -- Caroline Meeks Solution Grove carol...@solutiongrove.com 617-500-3488 - Office 505-213-3268 - Fax ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep
Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy?
I'd be curious to hear what the process is with the 5th graders. These were our main subjects. We worked only through regular classroom teachers (who had been carefully coached). You will not see any challenged 5th graders if you use a one on one session with them for about 20-30 minutes. The best way to do this is to teach a few this way, and then use a spreading wave of one on ones. We found that this was much better with both children and adults than to try to teach all of them in mass. So you might be seeing artifacts of pedagogical approach here (and a lot of challenged students result from such artifacts). Cheers, Alan From: Dr. Gerald Ardito gerald.ard...@gmail.com To: Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com Cc: Cherry Withers cwith...@ekindling.org; danielgast...@yahoo.com.ar; Tim McNamara paperl...@timmcnamara.co.nz; Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com; iaep iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org Sent: Mon, September 27, 2010 2:29:57 PM Subject: Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy? Caroline, You are remembering well. And I agree with your hypothesis. The 5th graders took pretty well to Etoys. It is the drawing piece that hooks them, and then the scripting part that really challenges them. And the 7th and 8th graders love Scratch. It is interesting to me because they also do plenty of painting of sprites and backgrounds, but something about the bricks seems to match their thinking process. I am getting ready to introduce my current 7th grade classes to Scratch and am looking forward to that. Thanks. Gerald On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 12:21 PM, Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com wrote: Gerald did some interesting work last year introducing both Scratch and eToys to 5th and 8th graders. Gerald please correct me if I am misremembering. I think the results were the 8th graders took to Scratch more and the 5th graders took to eToys more. Our hypothesis is that the first thing you do with eToys in draw and that is very accessible to 5th graders. They can engage with the system before they have to start understanding programming. On the other hand 8th graders were directly ready to engage with programming and had a easier/faster time picking that up with Scratch. This is very much a hypothesis, not proven and not based on much data but it would be interesting to explore further. On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.com wrote: OK, I'll send it to you separately. Anybody else is still welcome to join in. On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 20:47, Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com wrote: Edward, Thanks, please send me the outline and what you think needs to be more easily discoverable and I will work on it. Stephen On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.com wrote: It is true that you can do all of these things in EToys, if you know where to start. It is also true that the start screen of EToys could be improved by providing a path to each of them, and to other education modules, and Etoys could be improved with a few more introductory modules. Since children and untrained teachers cannot be expected to discover these paths, and paths in other Activities, on their own, I am in the middle of writing a guide to Discovery on the XO. The starting point is my Wiki page, http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/The_Undiscoverable http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick The undiscoverable is an unofficial FAQ for tips, tricks, and solutions to common problems that may otherwise be tricky to find. These are being considered for inclusion in the official SoaS documentation. The Etoys section needs vast expansion. I have an outline in mind, which I can share with anybody who would like to work on it. On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 15:59, Tim McNamara paperl...@timmcnamara.co.nz wrote: The analogy doesn't quite fit, as it's possible to do complex things in all of those tools and it's easy to do simple things in EToys. Each Activity can be used in this learning model, e.g. training wheels to motorbike. Tim On 25 September 2010 05:48, Cherry Withers cwith...@ekindling.org wrote: And Scratch? ... don't remember where I read it, but it sounded logical to me. Use progressively difficult tools for progressively difficult tasks. To confirm this statement, I add the phrase: Visible learning, invisible technology. Children would first learn TurtleArt. When they outgrow it switch to Scratch. When all its possibilities are exhausted, continue with eToys. ___ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep -- Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.
Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy?
Alan, First, I just want to clarify that I meant challenged in a positive way. The 5th graders dove into Etoys first through painting, and then through scripting. However, I agree with what you say about artifacts of a pedagogical approach. We saw this, too. Our learning situation involved 4-6 student experts with whom I spent time showing them the key elements of Etoys needed to begin the project. Then, when we introduced this project to larger class, these experts were free to move around the room helping other students. We found this model to be a good one for generating a very productive classroom environment with the XOs (in fact, it was the topic of my dissertation which I completed last May). However, I wished we had spent more time with the scripting piece. We had not developed those skills enough. Thanks. Gerald On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 7:10 PM, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote: I'd be curious to hear what the process is with the 5th graders. These were our main subjects. We worked only through regular classroom teachers (who had been carefully coached). You will not see any challenged 5th graders if you use a one on one session with them for about 20-30 minutes. The best way to do this is to teach a few this way, and then use a spreading wave of one on ones. We found that this was much better with both children and adults than to try to teach all of them in mass. So you might be seeing artifacts of pedagogical approach here (and a lot of challenged students result from such artifacts). Cheers, Alan -- *From:* Dr. Gerald Ardito gerald.ard...@gmail.com *To:* Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com *Cc:* Cherry Withers cwith...@ekindling.org; danielgast...@yahoo.com.ar; Tim McNamara paperl...@timmcnamara.co.nz; Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com; iaep iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org *Sent:* Mon, September 27, 2010 2:29:57 PM *Subject:* Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy? Caroline, You are remembering well. And I agree with your hypothesis. The 5th graders took pretty well to Etoys. It is the drawing piece that hooks them, and then the scripting part that really challenges them. And the 7th and 8th graders love Scratch. It is interesting to me because they also do plenty of painting of sprites and backgrounds, but something about the bricks seems to match their thinking process. I am getting ready to introduce my current 7th grade classes to Scratch and am looking forward to that. Thanks. Gerald On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 12:21 PM, Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com wrote: Gerald did some interesting work last year introducing both Scratch and eToys to 5th and 8th graders. Gerald please correct me if I am misremembering. I think the results were the 8th graders took to Scratch more and the 5th graders took to eToys more. Our hypothesis is that the first thing you do with eToys in draw and that is very accessible to 5th graders. They can engage with the system before they have to start understanding programming. On the other hand 8th graders were directly ready to engage with programming and had a easier/faster time picking that up with Scratch. This is very much a hypothesis, not proven and not based on much data but it would be interesting to explore further. On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.comwrote: OK, I'll send it to you separately. Anybody else is still welcome to join in. On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 20:47, Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com wrote: Edward, Thanks, please send me the outline and what you think needs to be more easily discoverable and I will work on it. Stephen On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.com wrote: It is true that you can do all of these things in EToys, if you know where to start. It is also true that the start screen of EToys could be improved by providing a path to each of them, and to other education modules, and Etoys could be improved with a few more introductory modules. Since children and untrained teachers cannot be expected to discover these paths, and paths in other Activities, on their own, I am in the middle of writing a guide to Discovery on the XO. The starting point is my Wiki page, http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/The_Undiscoverable http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick The undiscoverable is an unofficial FAQ for tips, tricks, and solutions to common problems that may otherwise be tricky to find. These are being considered for inclusion in the official SoaS documentation. The Etoys section needs vast expansion. I have an outline in mind, which I can share with anybody who would like to work on it. On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 15:59, Tim McNamara paperl...@timmcnamara.co.nz wrote: The analogy doesn't quite fit, as it's possible to do complex things in all of those tools and it's easy to do simple things in EToys. Each
Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy?
First let me say that based on my experience working with second and third graders in an inner city public school, eToys, Scratch and Turtle Art, none of them are inherently too difficult for elementary school children, especially with 1:1 help at the start and all of them have the potential to be very engaging. But we can still think about what makes it easiest and gives us the best ramp up at which age levels. When I think about challenge I am thinking about it in terms of game design. Like the graph on this page: http://mashable.com/2010/07/13/game-mechanics-business/ http://mashable.com/2010/07/13/game-mechanics-business/Game designers think there is an optimal level of challenge at each point to keep people engaged. So my hypothesis is that in 5th grade the drawing in eToys is in that optimal zone, of not too challenging but not boring either. However, by 8th grade the drawing is falling toward the boring side and the bricks are in that optimal zone of challenge. Another question is, once they have gotten engaged and past that first session, to a hello world sort of level, which system makes it easiest to progress and learn? Which is best for which learning goals and content areas? Just because kids like it better on Day 1 doesn't mean that system will be a superior learning tool two months later. Which is sort of a long +1 to Gerald that challenge is good. I was incredibly impressed with students ability and willingness to keep applying effort in working with content and concepts that challenged them. That is a key part of learning to learn. Cheers Caroline On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 7:31 PM, Dr. Gerald Ardito gerald.ard...@gmail.comwrote: Alan, First, I just want to clarify that I meant challenged in a positive way. The 5th graders dove into Etoys first through painting, and then through scripting. However, I agree with what you say about artifacts of a pedagogical approach. We saw this, too. Our learning situation involved 4-6 student experts with whom I spent time showing them the key elements of Etoys needed to begin the project. Then, when we introduced this project to larger class, these experts were free to move around the room helping other students. We found this model to be a good one for generating a very productive classroom environment with the XOs (in fact, it was the topic of my dissertation which I completed last May). However, I wished we had spent more time with the scripting piece. We had not developed those skills enough. Thanks. Gerald On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 7:10 PM, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote: I'd be curious to hear what the process is with the 5th graders. These were our main subjects. We worked only through regular classroom teachers (who had been carefully coached). You will not see any challenged 5th graders if you use a one on one session with them for about 20-30 minutes. The best way to do this is to teach a few this way, and then use a spreading wave of one on ones. We found that this was much better with both children and adults than to try to teach all of them in mass. So you might be seeing artifacts of pedagogical approach here (and a lot of challenged students result from such artifacts). Cheers, Alan -- *From:* Dr. Gerald Ardito gerald.ard...@gmail.com *To:* Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com *Cc:* Cherry Withers cwith...@ekindling.org; danielgast...@yahoo.com.ar; Tim McNamara paperl...@timmcnamara.co.nz; Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com; iaep iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org *Sent:* Mon, September 27, 2010 2:29:57 PM *Subject:* Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy? Caroline, You are remembering well. And I agree with your hypothesis. The 5th graders took pretty well to Etoys. It is the drawing piece that hooks them, and then the scripting part that really challenges them. And the 7th and 8th graders love Scratch. It is interesting to me because they also do plenty of painting of sprites and backgrounds, but something about the bricks seems to match their thinking process. I am getting ready to introduce my current 7th grade classes to Scratch and am looking forward to that. Thanks. Gerald On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 12:21 PM, Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com wrote: Gerald did some interesting work last year introducing both Scratch and eToys to 5th and 8th graders. Gerald please correct me if I am misremembering. I think the results were the 8th graders took to Scratch more and the 5th graders took to eToys more. Our hypothesis is that the first thing you do with eToys in draw and that is very accessible to 5th graders. They can engage with the system before they have to start understanding programming. On the other hand 8th graders were directly ready to engage with programming and had a easier/faster time picking that up with Scratch. This is very much a hypothesis, not proven and not based on much data but it
Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy?
Hi Gerald, Yes, I think the experts approach is a good one also -- we first saw it used by Betty Edwards (the drawing teacher) and it works very well if the ratio is about 1 expert to 6 or 7 learners or better. And we have tried this with Etoys (mostly on adult teachers). However, of all the ways we've tried, doing one on ones, and then using the new learners as one on one teachers for the next group (so you are doubling each time) works the best (and is also the most efficient with regard to how much time it takes to successfully do the first Etoys exercise -- in which the learners do and learn about 35 things in about 30 minutes). Best regards, Alan From: Dr. Gerald Ardito gerald.ard...@gmail.com To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com Cc: Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com; Cherry Withers cwith...@ekindling.org; danielgast...@yahoo.com.ar; Tim McNamara paperl...@timmcnamara.co.nz; Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com; iaep iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org Sent: Mon, September 27, 2010 4:31:13 PM Subject: Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy? Alan, First, I just want to clarify that I meant challenged in a positive way. The 5th graders dove into Etoys first through painting, and then through scripting. However, I agree with what you say about artifacts of a pedagogical approach. We saw this, too. Our learning situation involved 4-6 student experts with whom I spent time showing them the key elements of Etoys needed to begin the project. Then, when we introduced this project to larger class, these experts were free to move around the room helping other students. We found this model to be a good one for generating a very productive classroom environment with the XOs (in fact, it was the topic of my dissertation which I completed last May). However, I wished we had spent more time with the scripting piece. We had not developed those skills enough. Thanks. Gerald On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 7:10 PM, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote: I'd be curious to hear what the process is with the 5th graders. These were our main subjects. We worked only through regular classroom teachers (who had been carefully coached). You will not see any challenged 5th graders if you use a one on one session with them for about 20-30 minutes. The best way to do this is to teach a few this way, and then use a spreading wave of one on ones. We found that this was much better with both children and adults than to try to teach all of them in mass. So you might be seeing artifacts of pedagogical approach here (and a lot of challenged students result from such artifacts). Cheers, Alan From: Dr. Gerald Ardito gerald.ard...@gmail.com To: Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com Cc: Cherry Withers cwith...@ekindling.org; danielgast...@yahoo.com.ar; Tim McNamara paperl...@timmcnamara.co.nz; Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com; iaep iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org Sent: Mon, September 27, 2010 2:29:57 PM Subject: Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy? Caroline, You are remembering well. And I agree with your hypothesis. The 5th graders took pretty well to Etoys. It is the drawing piece that hooks them, and then the scripting part that really challenges them. And the 7th and 8th graders love Scratch. It is interesting to me because they also do plenty of painting of sprites and backgrounds, but something about the bricks seems to match their thinking process. I am getting ready to introduce my current 7th grade classes to Scratch and am looking forward to that. Thanks. Gerald On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 12:21 PM, Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com wrote: Gerald did some interesting work last year introducing both Scratch and eToys to 5th and 8th graders. Gerald please correct me if I am misremembering. I think the results were the 8th graders took to Scratch more and the 5th graders took to eToys more. Our hypothesis is that the first thing you do with eToys in draw and that is very accessible to 5th graders. They can engage with the system before they have to start understanding programming. On the other hand 8th graders were directly ready to engage with programming and had a easier/faster time picking that up with Scratch. This is very much a hypothesis, not proven and not based on much data but it would be interesting to explore further. On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.com wrote: OK, I'll send it to you separately. Anybody else is still welcome to join in. On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 20:47, Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com wrote: Edward, Thanks, please send me the outline and what you think needs to be more easily discoverable and I will work on it. Stephen On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.com wrote: It is true that you can do all of these things in EToys, if you know where to start. It is also true that the start screen
Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy?
Hi Caroline, I think that each of them is at its best for just a few years. Each of them was specifically designed (for different reasons) for relatively short term use. Etoys can be used longer, but mostly because it also has a particle system, and an integrated media system. Still, I think that the programming system should be done a bit differently for good use over a 5 or more year period. I think that a new system needs to be designed and made that is set for much more longitudinal learning (and we are trying to get funding to attempt to make such a system). Cheers, Alan From: Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com To: Dr. Gerald Ardito gerald.ard...@gmail.com Cc: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Cherry Withers cwith...@ekindling.org; danielgast...@yahoo.com.ar; Tim McNamara paperl...@timmcnamara.co.nz; Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com; iaep iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org Sent: Mon, September 27, 2010 4:46:45 PM Subject: Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy? First let me say that based on my experience working with second and third graders in an inner city public school, eToys, Scratch and Turtle Art, none of them are inherently too difficult for elementary school children, especially with 1:1 help at the start and all of them have the potential to be very engaging. But we can still think about what makes it easiest and gives us the best ramp up at which age levels. When I think about challenge I am thinking about it in terms of game design. Like the graph on this page: http://mashable.com/2010/07/13/game-mechanics-business/ Game designers think there is an optimal level of challenge at each point to keep people engaged. So my hypothesis is that in 5th grade the drawing in eToys is in that optimal zone, of not too challenging but not boring either. However, by 8th grade the drawing is falling toward the boring side and the bricks are in that optimal zone of challenge. Another question is, once they have gotten engaged and past that first session, to a hello world sort of level, which system makes it easiest to progress and learn? Which is best for which learning goals and content areas? Just because kids like it better on Day 1 doesn't mean that system will be a superior learning tool two months later. Which is sort of a long +1 to Gerald that challenge is good. I was incredibly impressed with students ability and willingness to keep applying effort in working with content and concepts that challenged them. That is a key part of learning to learn. Cheers Caroline On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 7:31 PM, Dr. Gerald Ardito gerald.ard...@gmail.com wrote: Alan, First, I just want to clarify that I meant challenged in a positive way. The 5th graders dove into Etoys first through painting, and then through scripting. However, I agree with what you say about artifacts of a pedagogical approach. We saw this, too. Our learning situation involved 4-6 student experts with whom I spent time showing them the key elements of Etoys needed to begin the project. Then, when we introduced this project to larger class, these experts were free to move around the room helping other students. We found this model to be a good one for generating a very productive classroom environment with the XOs (in fact, it was the topic of my dissertation which I completed last May). However, I wished we had spent more time with the scripting piece. We had not developed those skills enough. Thanks. Gerald On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 7:10 PM, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote: I'd be curious to hear what the process is with the 5th graders. These were our main subjects. We worked only through regular classroom teachers (who had been carefully coached). You will not see any challenged 5th graders if you use a one on one session with them for about 20-30 minutes. The best way to do this is to teach a few this way, and then use a spreading wave of one on ones. We found that this was much better with both children and adults than to try to teach all of them in mass. So you might be seeing artifacts of pedagogical approach here (and a lot of challenged students result from such artifacts). Cheers, Alan From: Dr. Gerald Ardito gerald.ard...@gmail.com To: Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com Cc: Cherry Withers cwith...@ekindling.org; danielgast...@yahoo.com.ar; Tim McNamara paperl...@timmcnamara.co.nz; Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com; iaep iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org Sent: Mon, September 27, 2010 2:29:57 PM Subject: Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy? Caroline, You are remembering well. And I agree with your hypothesis. The 5th graders took pretty well to Etoys. It is the drawing piece that hooks them, and then the scripting part that really challenges them. And the 7th and 8th graders love Scratch. It is interesting to me because they also do plenty of painting of sprites
Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy?
Can we add your dissertation to the Bibliography? On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 19:31, Dr. Gerald Ardito gerald.ard...@gmail.com wrote: Alan, First, I just want to clarify that I meant challenged in a positive way. The 5th graders dove into Etoys first through painting, and then through scripting. However, I agree with what you say about artifacts of a pedagogical approach. We saw this, too. Our learning situation involved 4-6 student experts with whom I spent time showing them the key elements of Etoys needed to begin the project. Then, when we introduced this project to larger class, these experts were free to move around the room helping other students. This is excellent information. I need to see how to integrate what you have found with my work on Discovery and The Undiscoverable. My notion had been to work out the constraints between Sugar features, and then a sequence of topics that would allow teachers to introduce one or two features per lesson. Your work may allow us to speed up the process considerably. We found this model to be a good one for generating a very productive classroom environment with the XOs (in fact, it was the topic of my dissertation which I completed last May). However, I wished we had spent more time with the scripting piece. We had not developed those skills enough. Thanks. Gerald On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 7:10 PM, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote: I'd be curious to hear what the process is with the 5th graders. These were our main subjects. We worked only through regular classroom teachers (who had been carefully coached). You will not see any challenged 5th graders if you use a one on one session with them for about 20-30 minutes. The best way to do this is to teach a few this way, and then use a spreading wave of one on ones. We found that this was much better with both children and adults than to try to teach all of them in mass. So you might be seeing artifacts of pedagogical approach here (and a lot of challenged students result from such artifacts). Cheers, Alan From: Dr. Gerald Ardito gerald.ard...@gmail.com To: Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com Cc: Cherry Withers cwith...@ekindling.org; danielgast...@yahoo.com.ar; Tim McNamara paperl...@timmcnamara.co.nz; Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com; iaep iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org Sent: Mon, September 27, 2010 2:29:57 PM Subject: Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy? Caroline, You are remembering well. And I agree with your hypothesis. The 5th graders took pretty well to Etoys. It is the drawing piece that hooks them, and then the scripting part that really challenges them. And the 7th and 8th graders love Scratch. It is interesting to me because they also do plenty of painting of sprites and backgrounds, but something about the bricks seems to match their thinking process. I am getting ready to introduce my current 7th grade classes to Scratch and am looking forward to that. Thanks. Gerald On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 12:21 PM, Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com wrote: Gerald did some interesting work last year introducing both Scratch and eToys to 5th and 8th graders. Gerald please correct me if I am misremembering. I think the results were the 8th graders took to Scratch more and the 5th graders took to eToys more. Our hypothesis is that the first thing you do with eToys in draw and that is very accessible to 5th graders. They can engage with the system before they have to start understanding programming. On the other hand 8th graders were directly ready to engage with programming and had a easier/faster time picking that up with Scratch. This is very much a hypothesis, not proven and not based on much data but it would be interesting to explore further. On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.com wrote: OK, I'll send it to you separately. Anybody else is still welcome to join in. On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 20:47, Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com wrote: Edward, Thanks, please send me the outline and what you think needs to be more easily discoverable and I will work on it. Stephen On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.com wrote: It is true that you can do all of these things in EToys, if you know where to start. It is also true that the start screen of EToys could be improved by providing a path to each of them, and to other education modules, and Etoys could be improved with a few more introductory modules. Since children and untrained teachers cannot be expected to discover these paths, and paths in other Activities, on their own, I am in the middle of writing a guide to Discovery on the XO. The starting point is my Wiki page, http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/The_Undiscoverable http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick The undiscoverable is an unofficial FAQ for tips, tricks, and solutions to
Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy?
Alan, Thanks for this. I am just beginning to work with our 5th grade students and teachers and will put this into action. One question for you, if I may. Can you tell me about the first Etoys lesson you mentioned (with 35 things in 30 minutes)? Thanks again. Gerald On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 7:51 PM, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi Gerald, Yes, I think the experts approach is a good one also -- we first saw it used by Betty Edwards (the drawing teacher) and it works very well if the ratio is about 1 expert to 6 or 7 learners or better. And we have tried this with Etoys (mostly on adult teachers). However, of all the ways we've tried, doing one on ones, and then using the new learners as one on one teachers for the next group (so you are doubling each time) works the best (and is also the most efficient with regard to how much time it takes to successfully do the first Etoys exercise -- in which the learners do and learn about 35 things in about 30 minutes). Best regards, Alan -- *From:* Dr. Gerald Ardito gerald.ard...@gmail.com *To:* Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com *Cc:* Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com; Cherry Withers cwith...@ekindling.org; danielgast...@yahoo.com.ar; Tim McNamara paperl...@timmcnamara.co.nz; Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com; iaep iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org *Sent:* Mon, September 27, 2010 4:31:13 PM *Subject:* Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy? Alan, First, I just want to clarify that I meant challenged in a positive way. The 5th graders dove into Etoys first through painting, and then through scripting. However, I agree with what you say about artifacts of a pedagogical approach. We saw this, too. Our learning situation involved 4-6 student experts with whom I spent time showing them the key elements of Etoys needed to begin the project. Then, when we introduced this project to larger class, these experts were free to move around the room helping other students. We found this model to be a good one for generating a very productive classroom environment with the XOs (in fact, it was the topic of my dissertation which I completed last May). However, I wished we had spent more time with the scripting piece. We had not developed those skills enough. Thanks. Gerald On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 7:10 PM, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote: I'd be curious to hear what the process is with the 5th graders. These were our main subjects. We worked only through regular classroom teachers (who had been carefully coached). You will not see any challenged 5th graders if you use a one on one session with them for about 20-30 minutes. The best way to do this is to teach a few this way, and then use a spreading wave of one on ones. We found that this was much better with both children and adults than to try to teach all of them in mass. So you might be seeing artifacts of pedagogical approach here (and a lot of challenged students result from such artifacts). Cheers, Alan -- *From:* Dr. Gerald Ardito gerald.ard...@gmail.com *To:* Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com *Cc:* Cherry Withers cwith...@ekindling.org; danielgast...@yahoo.com.ar; Tim McNamara paperl...@timmcnamara.co.nz; Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com; iaep iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org *Sent:* Mon, September 27, 2010 2:29:57 PM *Subject:* Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy? Caroline, You are remembering well. And I agree with your hypothesis. The 5th graders took pretty well to Etoys. It is the drawing piece that hooks them, and then the scripting part that really challenges them. And the 7th and 8th graders love Scratch. It is interesting to me because they also do plenty of painting of sprites and backgrounds, but something about the bricks seems to match their thinking process. I am getting ready to introduce my current 7th grade classes to Scratch and am looking forward to that. Thanks. Gerald On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 12:21 PM, Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com wrote: Gerald did some interesting work last year introducing both Scratch and eToys to 5th and 8th graders. Gerald please correct me if I am misremembering. I think the results were the 8th graders took to Scratch more and the 5th graders took to eToys more. Our hypothesis is that the first thing you do with eToys in draw and that is very accessible to 5th graders. They can engage with the system before they have to start understanding programming. On the other hand 8th graders were directly ready to engage with programming and had a easier/faster time picking that up with Scratch. This is very much a hypothesis, not proven and not based on much data but it would be interesting to explore further. On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.comwrote: OK, I'll send it to you separately. Anybody else is still welcome to join in. On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at
Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy?
Edward, Sure thing. The citation for the dissertation would be: Ardito, G. (2010). The shape of disruption: xo laptops in the fifth grade classroom (Doctoral dissertation). Available from Pace University. I hope my work will be of some service to your projects. Please let me know if there is anything else I can do. Best, Gerald On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 8:27 PM, Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.com wrote: Can we add your dissertation to the Bibliography? On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 19:31, Dr. Gerald Ardito gerald.ard...@gmail.com wrote: Alan, First, I just want to clarify that I meant challenged in a positive way. The 5th graders dove into Etoys first through painting, and then through scripting. However, I agree with what you say about artifacts of a pedagogical approach. We saw this, too. Our learning situation involved 4-6 student experts with whom I spent time showing them the key elements of Etoys needed to begin the project. Then, when we introduced this project to larger class, these experts were free to move around the room helping other students. This is excellent information. I need to see how to integrate what you have found with my work on Discovery and The Undiscoverable. My notion had been to work out the constraints between Sugar features, and then a sequence of topics that would allow teachers to introduce one or two features per lesson. Your work may allow us to speed up the process considerably. We found this model to be a good one for generating a very productive classroom environment with the XOs (in fact, it was the topic of my dissertation which I completed last May). However, I wished we had spent more time with the scripting piece. We had not developed those skills enough. Thanks. Gerald On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 7:10 PM, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote: I'd be curious to hear what the process is with the 5th graders. These were our main subjects. We worked only through regular classroom teachers (who had been carefully coached). You will not see any challenged 5th graders if you use a one on one session with them for about 20-30 minutes. The best way to do this is to teach a few this way, and then use a spreading wave of one on ones. We found that this was much better with both children and adults than to try to teach all of them in mass. So you might be seeing artifacts of pedagogical approach here (and a lot of challenged students result from such artifacts). Cheers, Alan From: Dr. Gerald Ardito gerald.ard...@gmail.com To: Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com Cc: Cherry Withers cwith...@ekindling.org; danielgast...@yahoo.com.ar ; Tim McNamara paperl...@timmcnamara.co.nz; Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com; iaep iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org Sent: Mon, September 27, 2010 2:29:57 PM Subject: Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy? Caroline, You are remembering well. And I agree with your hypothesis. The 5th graders took pretty well to Etoys. It is the drawing piece that hooks them, and then the scripting part that really challenges them. And the 7th and 8th graders love Scratch. It is interesting to me because they also do plenty of painting of sprites and backgrounds, but something about the bricks seems to match their thinking process. I am getting ready to introduce my current 7th grade classes to Scratch and am looking forward to that. Thanks. Gerald On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 12:21 PM, Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com wrote: Gerald did some interesting work last year introducing both Scratch and eToys to 5th and 8th graders. Gerald please correct me if I am misremembering. I think the results were the 8th graders took to Scratch more and the 5th graders took to eToys more. Our hypothesis is that the first thing you do with eToys in draw and that is very accessible to 5th graders. They can engage with the system before they have to start understanding programming. On the other hand 8th graders were directly ready to engage with programming and had a easier/faster time picking that up with Scratch. This is very much a hypothesis, not proven and not based on much data but it would be interesting to explore further. On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.com wrote: OK, I'll send it to you separately. Anybody else is still welcome to join in. On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 20:47, Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com wrote: Edward, Thanks, please send me the outline and what you think needs to be more easily discoverable and I will work on it. Stephen On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Edward Cherlin echer...@gmail.com wrote: It is true that you can do all of these things in EToys, if you know where to start. It is also true that the start screen of EToys could be improved by providing a path to
Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy?
It's the make a car you can drive yourself one which starts with the painting of a car, scripting it to go in a circle, steering by modifying the script on the fly, adding a steering wheel, moving the steering wheel's heading to the car turn by, making a gear by dividing the heading by 3, making a car that will follow a track, etc. This has proved to be a great opening sequence with most 5th graders, and it goes best with one on one guidance. They learn a lot of things about Etoys (we counted about 35) and the next few months projects can be done with what they encounter in their first half hour or so. It is extremely difficult to pull off in a mass class with either children or adults because of the range of pace and what it takes for individuals to get it, and what questions and prompts they need. Kind of a perfect example where mass class loses badly and one on one is very efficient and effective. Cheers, Alan From: Dr. Gerald Ardito gerald.ard...@gmail.com To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com Cc: Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com; Cherry Withers cwith...@ekindling.org; danielgast...@yahoo.com.ar; Tim McNamara paperl...@timmcnamara.co.nz; Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com; iaep iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org Sent: Mon, September 27, 2010 6:00:52 PM Subject: Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy? Alan, Thanks for this. I am just beginning to work with our 5th grade students and teachers and will put this into action. One question for you, if I may. Can you tell me about the first Etoys lesson you mentioned (with 35 things in 30 minutes)? Thanks again. Gerald On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 7:51 PM, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi Gerald, Yes, I think the experts approach is a good one also -- we first saw it used by Betty Edwards (the drawing teacher) and it works very well if the ratio is about 1 expert to 6 or 7 learners or better. And we have tried this with Etoys (mostly on adult teachers). However, of all the ways we've tried, doing one on ones, and then using the new learners as one on one teachers for the next group (so you are doubling each time) works the best (and is also the most efficient with regard to how much time it takes to successfully do the first Etoys exercise -- in which the learners do and learn about 35 things in about 30 minutes). Best regards, Alan From: Dr. Gerald Ardito gerald.ard...@gmail.com To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com Cc: Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com; Cherry Withers cwith...@ekindling.org; danielgast...@yahoo.com.ar; Tim McNamara paperl...@timmcnamara.co.nz; Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com; iaep iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org Sent: Mon, September 27, 2010 4:31:13 PM Subject: Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy? Alan, First, I just want to clarify that I meant challenged in a positive way. The 5th graders dove into Etoys first through painting, and then through scripting. However, I agree with what you say about artifacts of a pedagogical approach. We saw this, too. Our learning situation involved 4-6 student experts with whom I spent time showing them the key elements of Etoys needed to begin the project. Then, when we introduced this project to larger class, these experts were free to move around the room helping other students. We found this model to be a good one for generating a very productive classroom environment with the XOs (in fact, it was the topic of my dissertation which I completed last May). However, I wished we had spent more time with the scripting piece. We had not developed those skills enough. Thanks. Gerald On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 7:10 PM, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote: I'd be curious to hear what the process is with the 5th graders. These were our main subjects. We worked only through regular classroom teachers (who had been carefully coached). You will not see any challenged 5th graders if you use a one on one session with them for about 20-30 minutes. The best way to do this is to teach a few this way, and then use a spreading wave of one on ones. We found that this was much better with both children and adults than to try to teach all of them in mass. So you might be seeing artifacts of pedagogical approach here (and a lot of challenged students result from such artifacts). Cheers, Alan From: Dr. Gerald Ardito gerald.ard...@gmail.com To: Caroline Meeks carol...@solutiongrove.com Cc: Cherry Withers cwith...@ekindling.org; danielgast...@yahoo.com.ar; Tim McNamara paperl...@timmcnamara.co.nz; Steve Thomas stevesar...@gmail.com; iaep iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org Sent: Mon, September 27, 2010 2:29:57 PM Subject: Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy? Caroline, You are remembering well. And I agree with your hypothesis. The 5th graders took pretty well to Etoys. It is the drawing piece that hooks them, and then the scripting part
