Re: Amazing article.

[Hylton Tom P]

FWIW Those aren't my comments.  Those were the ones I was responding to,
but I think the quote got mangled.

I just posted a link to an article that indicated the same as you are
saying:
http://searchdatacenter.techtarget.com/news/article/0,289142,sid80_gci15
08584,00.html 



-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
Behalf Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 8:56 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Amazing article.

In
<4c5d185039a6a0499f76fa65ac606dbc0452d...@nct0010cp3mb04.ds.irsnet.gov>,
on 05/18/2010
   at 05:06 PM, Hylton Tom P  said:

>OS/2 is dead,

FSVO dead.

>so users were forced to migrate off.

Some were.

>Possibly some existing and "closed" applications are being in use 
>nowadays.

There's still application development.

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Re: Amazing article.

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In
<4c5d185039a6a0499f76fa65ac606dbc0452d...@nct0010cp3mb04.ds.irsnet.gov>,
on 05/18/2010
   at 05:06 PM, Hylton Tom P  said:

>OS/2 is dead,

FSVO dead.

>so users were forced to migrate off.

Some were.

>Possibly some existing and "closed" applications are being in 
>use nowadays.

There's still application development.

-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Amazing article.

[Chase, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Hylton Tom P
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of R.S.
> 
> Howard Brazee pisze:
> > On 6 May 2010 13:25:37 -0700, r.skoru...@snip.it.pl (R.S.)
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> > I wonder how many operating systems are being used in such business
> > environments.Is Pick still being used?   How about VAX?   Other
> > IBM mini-environment OS's (not to mention OS/2)?
> 
> OS/2 is dead, so users were forced to migrate off. Possibly some
> existing and "closed" applications are being in use nowadays.
> 
> 
>
http://searchdatacenter.techtarget.com/news/article/0,289142,sid80_gci15
> 08584,00.html

I won't be going back.  Indeed, I took both my OS/2 boxes to the
recycler last time I cleaned out the basement.  :-)

I still have some OS/2 software; contact me off-list for inventory and
shipping arrangements.

-jc-

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Re: Amazing article.

[Hylton Tom P]

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
Behalf Of R.S.
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 12:58 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Amazing article.

Howard Brazee pisze:
> On 6 May 2010 13:25:37 -0700, r.skoru...@snip.it.pl (R.S.)
> wrote:
> 
> 
> I wonder how many operating systems are being used in such business
> environments.Is Pick still being used?   How about VAX?   Other
> IBM mini-environment OS's (not to mention OS/2)?

OS/2 is dead, so users were forced to migrate off. Possibly some
existing and "closed" applications are being in use nowadays.


http://searchdatacenter.techtarget.com/news/article/0,289142,sid80_gci15
08584,00.html

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Re: Amazing article.

[Timothy Sipples]

Clark Morris asks:
>has Bull kept updating the ex-Honeywell/GE line for GCOS?

"Updating" is too strong a word, but Bull still supports GCOS, yes. More
information is available here:

http://www.bull.com/servers/gcos8/index.html

In the Japanese domestic market NEC still supports a close cousin of GCOS
called ACOS. More information is available here (in Japanese):

http://www.nec.co.jp/products/acosclub/index.html

- - - - -
Timothy Sipples
Resident Architect (Based in Singapore)
STG Value Creation and Complex Deals Team
IBM Growth Markets
E-Mail: timothy.sipp...@us.ibm.com

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Re: Amazing article.

[Clark Morris]

On 16 May 2010 16:12:03 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote:

>In
><45d79eacefba9b428e3d400e924d36b9036ed...@iwdubcormsg007.sci.local>,
>on 05/10/2010
>   at 01:13 PM, "Thompson, Steve"  said:
>
>>I will not say these are mainframe, but I know they are being used:
>
>Subject to name changes over the years:
>
> EXEC 8
> GCOS
> MCP
So far as I know Unisys has something current to run the EXEC 8 and
MCP (or their successors) but has Bull kept updating the
ex-Honeywell/GE line for GCOS?  I assume the true Honeywell lines were
dead-ended long ago and I haven't a clue as the Bull lines.

> 

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Re: Amazing article.

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In
<45d79eacefba9b428e3d400e924d36b9036ed...@iwdubcormsg007.sci.local>,
on 05/10/2010
   at 01:13 PM, "Thompson, Steve"  said:

>I will not say these are mainframe, but I know they are being used:

Subject to name changes over the years:

 EXEC 8
 GCOS
 MCP
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
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Re: Amazing article.

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <4be83b0c.2030...@bremultibank.com.pl>, on 05/10/2010
   at 06:57 PM, "R.S."  said:

>OS/2 is dead,

FSVO dead.

>so users were forced to migrate off.

Some were.

>Possibly some existing and "closed" applications are being in 
>use nowadays.

There's still application development.

-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Amazing article.

[Ron Hawkins]

I believe Paul Gilmartin did, just before the quote that got your knickers
in a bunch.

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
Behalf Of
> Ted MacNEIL
> Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 7:42 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] Amazing article.
> 
> >However it is possible to provide some examples when liberty is
constrained
> and it does not add any value to RAS.
> 
> Then, do so.
> -
> Too busy driving to stop for gas!
> 
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Re: Amazing article.

[zMan]

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 3:07 PM, Howard Brazee wrote:

> But there still are non-IBM mainframes.
>

And around and around and around we go, where we stop, nobody knows...



'...There's glory for you!'

`I don't know what you mean by "glory",' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't -- till I tell
you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.

`When *I* use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it
means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

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Re: Amazing article.

[Howard Brazee]

On 10 May 2010 09:59:04 -0700, r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl (R.S.)
wrote:

>> Anybody have a list of how much other mainframe operating systems are
>> being used?
>The same answer as with number of mainframes at all: Only IBM knows and 
>it is the most bashful secret.

But there still are non-IBM mainframes.

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Re: Amazing article.

[R.S.]

Ted MacNEIL pisze:

OS/2 is dead, so users were forced to migrate off.


Not all users.


Possibly some existing and "closed" applications are being in use nowadays.



Many ATM's in North America are still running OS/2.


Many ATMs were installed many years ago. In the very old days I 
installed OS/2 based NCR machine in Poland. Later, approx.  10 years ago 
any vendor's specification contained "non OS2 operating system". The 
direction was obvious at the time.


However, ATM is not typical computer. It's more like LM in 3494 or HMC, 
or PC inside DASD array. Some kind of appliance - closed HW, SW, 
configuration. I.e. It is not supported to insert my favorite NIC card 
to the ATM ;-)




--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


--
BRE Bank SA
ul. Senatorska 18
00-950 Warszawa
www.brebank.pl

Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy 
XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, 
nr rejestru przedsiębiorców KRS 025237

NIP: 526-021-50-88
Według stanu na dzień 01.01.2009 r. kapitał zakładowy BRE Banku SA (w całości 
wpłacony) wynosi 118.763.528 złotych. W związku z realizacją warunkowego 
podwyższenia kapitału zakładowego, na podstawie uchwały XXI WZ z dnia 16 marca 
2008r., oraz uchwały XVI NWZ z dnia 27 października 2008r., może ulec 
podwyższeniu do kwoty 123.763.528 zł. Akcje w podwyższonym kapitale zakładowym 
BRE Banku SA będą w całości opłacone.

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Re: Amazing article.

[Ted MacNEIL]

>OS/2 is dead, so users were forced to migrate off.

Not all users.

>Possibly some existing and "closed" applications are being in use nowadays.


Many ATM's in North America are still running OS/2.

I know of one bank in Canada that had to re-write their application to handle 
bills larger than $50 because their white label machines were in casinos, and 
$20's & $50's weren't acceptable.

-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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Re: Amazing article.

[Lloyd Fuller]

OS/2 is alive.  It is now called ecomstation and the latest releaseis due at 
the end of the week. It is just no longer sold by IBM.

Lloyd



- Original Message 
From: R.S. 
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Sent: Mon, May 10, 2010 12:57:48 PM
Subject: Re: Amazing article.


/snip

OS/2 is dead, so users were forced to migrate off. Possibly some existing and 
"closed" applications are being in use nowadays.
/snip a lots

-- Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


--
BRE Bank SA
ul. Senatorska 18
00-950 Warszawa
www.brebank.pl

Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru 
Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237
NIP: 526-021-50-88
Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2009 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci 
wpacony) wynosi 118.763.528 zotych. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego 
podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchway XXI WZ z dnia 16 marca 
2008r., oraz uchway XVI NWZ z dnia 27 padziernika 2008r., moe ulec podwyszeniu 
do kwoty 123.763.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym BRE Banku SA bd 
w caoci opacone.

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Re: Amazing article.

[zMan]

Add MUMPS to the list -- it used to be on many platforms too.

("Hey, honey, guess what! We're getting MUMPS at work!")

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Re: Amazing article.

[Thompson, Steve]

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On
Behalf Of Howard Brazee
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 11:10 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Amazing article.

On 6 May 2010 13:25:37 -0700, r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl (R.S.)
wrote:

>Version for IT interlocutors:
>"Mainframe? z/OS? Is it a clone of AIX? Linux? C'mon! Since it's not 
>Windows, it must be any non-Windows operating system! [=>] It must be 
>kind of Unix!".

I wonder how many operating systems are being used in such business
environments.Is Pick still being used?   How about VAX?   Other
IBM mini-environment OS's (not to mention OS/2)?

Anybody have a list of how much other mainframe operating systems are
being used?


I will not say these are mainframe, but I know they are being used:

OpenVMS
HPNS (formerly Tandem NonSTOP)

Regards,
Steve Thompson

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Re: Amazing article.

[Sam Siegel]

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 5:57 PM, R.S.  wrote:
> Howard Brazee pisze:
>>
>> On 6 May 2010 13:25:37 -0700, r.skoru...@snip.it.pl (R.S.)
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Version for IT interlocutors:
>>> "Mainframe? z/OS? Is it a clone of AIX? Linux? C'mon! Since it's not
>>> Windows, it must be any non-Windows operating system! [=>] It must be kind
>>> of Unix!".
>>
>> I wonder how many operating systems are being used in such business
>> environments.    Is Pick still being used?   How about VAX?   Other
>> IBM mini-environment OS's (not to mention OS/2)?
>
> OS/2 is dead, so users were forced to migrate off. Possibly some existing
> and "closed" applications are being in use nowadays.
> Pick - I never heard about such gismo.
> VAX - very fine OS, but rapidly dying after DEC and later Compaq merge.
> However I'm aware of some serious business systems still using it.
> BTW: there are (were) many other Unix-like systems in use - to mention
> Dynix, DataGeneral, Ultrix, NCR, Sinix -  and some non-Unix ones like Gecos
> (former GE), Burrows, Sperry, ICL (George3 derivatives) and last but not
> least: HDS VOS and Fujitsu MSP which are very similar to MVS .
>
>
>> Anybody have a list of how much other mainframe operating systems are
>> being used?
>
> The same answer as with number of mainframes at all: Only IBM knows and it
> is the most bashful secret.
> 
> New user on VSE is a joke, the same for TPF (I heard there are no more than
> 100 TPF systems, obviously cannot verify it). VM is profiting by zLinux
> popularity.

Strange but true Ticketmaster (online event ticket sales; primarily in
the US) was the last new TPF user.  This occurred someplace between
2000 and 2005 IIRC.

Cheers
>
> --
> Radoslaw Skorupka
> Lodz, Poland
>
>
> --
> BRE Bank SA
> ul. Senatorska 18
> 00-950 Warszawa
> www.brebank.pl
>
> S d Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia  Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru
> S dowego, nr rejestru przedsi biorców KRS 025237
> NIP: 526-021-50-88
> Wed ug stanu na dzie  01.01.2009 r. kapita  zak adowy BRE Banku SA (w ca o
> ci wp acony) wynosi 118.763.528 z otych. W zwi zku z realizacj  warunkowego
> podwy szenia kapita u zak adowego, na podstawie uchwa y XXI WZ z dnia 16
> marca 2008r., oraz uchwa y XVI NWZ z dnia 27 pa dziernika 2008r., mo e ulec
> podwy szeniu do kwoty 123.763.528 z . Akcje w podwy szonym kapitale zak
> adowym BRE Banku SA b d  w ca o ci op acone.
>
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Re: Amazing article.

[zMan]

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 12:57 PM, R.S. wrote:

> Pick - I never heard about such gismo.
>

PICK was invented by Dick Pick, was used on many platforms for a long time,
and is still available:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pick_operating_system
and www.tigerlogic.com.

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Re: Amazing article.

[Sam Siegel]

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Howard Brazee  wrote:
> On 6 May 2010 13:25:37 -0700, r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl (R.S.)
> wrote:
>
>>Version for IT interlocutors:
>>"Mainframe? z/OS? Is it a clone of AIX? Linux? C'mon! Since it's not
>>Windows, it must be any non-Windows operating system! [=>] It must be
>>kind of Unix!".
>
> I wonder how many operating systems are being used in such business
> environments.    Is Pick still being used?   How about VAX?   Other
> IBM mini-environment OS's (not to mention OS/2)?
>
> Anybody have a list of how much other mainframe operating systems are
> being used?

To all this is in this entire string of emails not just this post
(which is getting this response strictly by coincidence) we should not
lose sight that this posted started life as a joke / letting off
steam.

Cheers
>
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Re: Amazing article.

[R.S.]

Howard Brazee pisze:

On 6 May 2010 13:25:37 -0700, r.skoru...@snip.it.pl (R.S.)
wrote:


Version for IT interlocutors:
"Mainframe? z/OS? Is it a clone of AIX? Linux? C'mon! Since it's not 
Windows, it must be any non-Windows operating system! [=>] It must be 
kind of Unix!".


I wonder how many operating systems are being used in such business
environments.Is Pick still being used?   How about VAX?   Other
IBM mini-environment OS's (not to mention OS/2)?


OS/2 is dead, so users were forced to migrate off. Possibly some 
existing and "closed" applications are being in use nowadays.

Pick - I never heard about such gismo.
VAX - very fine OS, but rapidly dying after DEC and later Compaq merge.
However I'm aware of some serious business systems still using it.
BTW: there are (were) many other Unix-like systems in use - to mention 
Dynix, DataGeneral, Ultrix, NCR, Sinix -  and some non-Unix ones like 
Gecos (former GE), Burrows, Sperry, ICL (George3 derivatives) and last 
but not least: HDS VOS and Fujitsu MSP which are very similar to MVS .




Anybody have a list of how much other mainframe operating systems are
being used?
The same answer as with number of mainframes at all: Only IBM knows and 
it is the most bashful secret.


New user on VSE is a joke, the same for TPF (I heard there are no more 
than 100 TPF systems, obviously cannot verify it). VM is profiting by 
zLinux popularity.


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


--
BRE Bank SA
ul. Senatorska 18
00-950 Warszawa
www.brebank.pl

Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy 
XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, 
nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237

NIP: 526-021-50-88
Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2009 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci 
wpacony) wynosi 118.763.528 zotych. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego 
podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchway XXI WZ z dnia 16 marca 
2008r., oraz uchway XVI NWZ z dnia 27 padziernika 2008r., moe ulec 
podwyszeniu do kwoty 123.763.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym 
BRE Banku SA bd w caoci opacone.

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Re: Amazing article.

[Steve Comstock]

McKown, John wrote:

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
[mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Howard Brazee

Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 11:10 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Amazing article.

On 6 May 2010 13:25:37 -0700, r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl (R.S.)
wrote:


Version for IT interlocutors:
"Mainframe? z/OS? Is it a clone of AIX? Linux? C'mon! Since it's not 
Windows, it must be any non-Windows operating system! [=>] 
It must be 

kind of Unix!".

I wonder how many operating systems are being used in such business
environments.Is Pick still being used?   How about VAX?   Other
IBM mini-environment OS's (not to mention OS/2)?

Anybody have a list of how much other mainframe operating systems are
being used?


i5/OS (or whatever it's called) is still going fairly strong.

--
John McKown 
Systems Engineer IV

IT

Administrative Services Group

HealthMarkets(r)

9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010
(817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell
john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com



Ah, but, here we go again: what's a mainframe?


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-Steve Comstock
The Trainer's Friend, Inc.

303-393-8716
http://www.trainersfriend.com

* z/OS application programmer training
  + Instructor-led on-site classroom based classes
  + Course materials licensing
  + Remote contact training
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Re: Amazing article.

[McKown, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Howard Brazee
> Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 11:10 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: Amazing article.
> 
> On 6 May 2010 13:25:37 -0700, r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl (R.S.)
> wrote:
> 
> >Version for IT interlocutors:
> >"Mainframe? z/OS? Is it a clone of AIX? Linux? C'mon! Since it's not 
> >Windows, it must be any non-Windows operating system! [=>] 
> It must be 
> >kind of Unix!".
> 
> I wonder how many operating systems are being used in such business
> environments.Is Pick still being used?   How about VAX?   Other
> IBM mini-environment OS's (not to mention OS/2)?
> 
> Anybody have a list of how much other mainframe operating systems are
> being used?

i5/OS (or whatever it's called) is still going fairly strong.

--
John McKown 
Systems Engineer IV
IT

Administrative Services Group

HealthMarkets(r)

9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010
(817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell
john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com

Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or 
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insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance 
Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The 
MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM

 

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Re: Amazing article.

[Howard Brazee]

On 10 May 2010 07:46:08 -0700, john.mck...@healthmarkets.com (McKown,
John) wrote:

>Apparently the person to whom you were replying was not aware that Windows' 
>main touted 
>benefit is that there is only one way to do something, so everybody must do it 
>the same way. 
>Windows is the ultimate in "state control" of a computer system. In my very 
>humble opinion.

And in my humble opinion, it is typical in this regard, not ultimate.

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Re: Amazing article.

[Howard Brazee]

On 9 May 2010 09:21:10 -0700, eamacn...@yahoo.ca (Ted MacNEIL) wrote:

>>Apparently abhorrence of liberty is the modal attitude of z/OS programmers.
>
>Why do you work on a platform you hate so much?
>
>Every one has some restriction that users of same don't like!
>
>Find another field and stop b*tching!

While I like Z/OS, I don't believe there is a platform or field that
couldn't use some improvement.How much people "b*tch" about a work
environment is more about personality than anything else.   Switching
jobs rarely changes anything.

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Re: Amazing article.

[Howard Brazee]

On 6 May 2010 13:25:37 -0700, r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl (R.S.)
wrote:

>Version for IT interlocutors:
>"Mainframe? z/OS? Is it a clone of AIX? Linux? C'mon! Since it's not 
>Windows, it must be any non-Windows operating system! [=>] It must be 
>kind of Unix!".

I wonder how many operating systems are being used in such business
environments.Is Pick still being used?   How about VAX?   Other
IBM mini-environment OS's (not to mention OS/2)?

Anybody have a list of how much other mainframe operating systems are
being used?

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Re: Amazing article.

[McKown, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL
> Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 11:21 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: Amazing article.
> 
> >Apparently abhorrence of liberty is the modal attitude of 
> z/OS programmers.
> 
> Why do you work on a platform you hate so much?
> 
> Every one has some restriction that users of same don't like!
> 
> Find another field and stop b*tching!

Apparently the person to whom you were replying was not aware that Windows' 
main touted benefit is that there is only one way to do something, so everybody 
must do it the same way. Windows is the ultimate in "state control" of a 
computer system. In my very humble opinion.

--
John McKown 
Systems Engineer IV
IT

Administrative Services Group

HealthMarkets(r)

9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010
(817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell
john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com

Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or 
proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact 
the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. 
HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the 
insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance 
Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The 
MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM

 

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Re: Amazing article.

[Ted MacNEIL]

>However it is possible to provide some examples when liberty is constrained 
>and it does not add any value to RAS.

Then, do so.
-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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Re: Amazing article.

[McKown, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
> Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 7:48 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: Amazing article.
> 
> In ,
> on 05/08/2010
>at 07:11 AM, "McKown, John"  said:
> 
> >Not any from IBM that I am aware of. IBM's method implys a "stack" of
> >GDGs,
> 
> There is no "IBM's method", only IBM's method*s*; as Larry Wall
> claims, TMTOWTDI. In particular, you can read the catalog, extract the
> GDS names and process them individually. You can even maintain a
> record of what you've done with which.
> 
> >There is not an IBM way to process them from oldest to youngest.
> 
> Sure there is; use, e.g., CSI, then allocate each GDS that is of
> interest and do what you want with it. If you're writing in Perl, use
> file globs.
> 
> >you could do it with their "catsearch" program.
> 
> Is that a wrapper for CSI?
>  
> -- 
>  Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT

I was inexact. I was thinking totally in terms of relative generation numbers. 
There is no JCL construct which says: "Give the the oldest (lowest 
numbered)existing GDG". There is for the question: "Give me the youngest 
(highest numbered) existing GDG", that is gdg(0). Neither is there a __SIMPLE__ 
API to answer that question. Yes, I know about CAMLST / LOCATE,  and IGGCSI00, 
and scraping a LISTC output. I said, and mean (brain dead), SIMPLE.

--
John McKown 
Systems Engineer IV
IT

Administrative Services Group

HealthMarkets(r)

9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010
(817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell
john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com

Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or 
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the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. 
HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the 
insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance 
Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The 
MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM

 

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Re: Amazing article.

[R.S.]

Joel C. Ewing pisze:
[...]

z/OS is so useful in the real business world precisely because of the
way the "liberty" of users is constrained.


This is matter of language - how we understand "liberty".
However it is possible to provide some examples when liberty is 
constrained and it does not add any value to RAS.



--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


--
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ul. Senatorska 18
00-950 Warszawa
www.brebank.pl

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Re: Amazing article.

[Joel C. Ewing]

On 05/09/2010 11:21 AM, Ted MacNEIL wrote:
>> Apparently abhorrence of liberty is the modal attitude of z/OS programmers.
> 
> Why do you work on a platform you hate so much?
> Every one has some restriction that users of same don't like!
> Find another field and stop b*tching!
> -
> Too busy driving to stop for gas!
...
I missed the source posting of the "abhorrence of liberty" remark that
Ted quotes, but if it was made in seriousness the original author
obviously doesn't understand what is required to make Reliability,
Availability, and Security work in the real world.  You simply can't
allow any compromise in design at the Operating System or hardware level
that presumes a user or program is innocent until proven guilty, but
must instead assume all users or programs have nefarious intent until
certified innocent.  In particularly critical sections of the Operating
System, there is even a design assumption that the Operating System
itself is suspect - that some unforseen "failure" may occur in code that
is presumed to be "good", and Functional Recovery Routines are designed
to allow continued operation should this happen.  This admittedly
paranoid design philosophy is incredibly important on multi-user systems
like z/OS if you are to have a high level of trust in the accuracy of
data and stability of the Operating System.

People used to think you didn't need such restrictions on single-user
systems such as PC DOS and Windows, but once users started sharing data,
even on diskettes in pre-Internet days, it became apparent this design
philosophy had created a very vulnerable platform for those with
malicious intent, and that such persons existed.  No doubt there are
still some raised in the PC world that don't get it that libertarianism
is a poor design philosophy for a reliable Operating System.

z/OS is so useful in the real business world precisely because of the
way the "liberty" of users is constrained.

-- 
Joel C. Ewing, Fort Smith, ARjremoveccapsew...@acm.org

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Re: Amazing article.

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In , on 05/09/2010
   at 11:17 AM, Paul Gilmartin  said:

>Apparently abhorrence of liberty is the modal attitude of z/OS
>programmers.

The Devil is in the Details. I did not object at all when users were
prevented from accessing storage that was unallocated. I did object
when users were prevented from specifying hyphens inside parentheses
in their JCL. The former was necessary, the latter was gratuitous.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Amazing article.

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Sun, 9 May 2010 16:20:53 +, Ted MacNEIL wrote:

>>Apparently abhorrence of liberty is the modal attitude of z/OS programmers.
>
The Dog in the Manger comes to mind.

>Why do you work on a platform you hate so much?
>
I enjoy it greatly, twice a month.

-- gil

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Re: Amazing article.

[Sam Siegel]

On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 5:20 PM, Ted MacNEIL  wrote:
>>Apparently abhorrence of liberty is the modal attitude of z/OS programmers.
>
> Why do you work on a platform you hate so much?
>
> Every one has some restriction that users of same don't like!
>
> Find another field and stop b*tching!

Hear, hear.

>
> -
> Too busy driving to stop for gas!
>
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Re: Amazing article.

[Ted MacNEIL]

>Apparently abhorrence of liberty is the modal attitude of z/OS programmers.

Why do you work on a platform you hate so much?

Every one has some restriction that users of same don't like!

Find another field and stop b*tching!

-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

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Re: Amazing article.

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Sat, 8 May 2010 20:45:54 -0400, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:
>
>They are now; that wasn't always true. The restriction to 8 character
>index level was due to SYSCTLG and CVOL, and is still with us now that
>CVOL's are gone.
...
>They aren't. E.g., MVS does not allow you to catalog a name with
>imbedded blanks.
>
My understanding, from discussions here a couple years ago, is
that several releases ago most such restrictions were removed
from catalog services, but remained in JCL and other archaic
APIs.

A subsequent release introduced a PARMLIB option to control
the facility in catalog services, making the default new-style
(few restrictions).

A yet subsequent release changed the default to be old-style
(restricted).

Apparently abhorrence of liberty is the modal attitude of z/OS
programmers.

-- gil

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Re: Amazing article.

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In ,
on 05/07/2010
   at 12:16 PM, Sam Siegel  said:

>I'm commenting from the perspective of a developer.  I'm not sure that I
>understand the distinctions being made.

The SYSCATLG and CVOL[1] infrastructure that existed before VSAM
maintained a tree with 8 character node names. The original VSAM
catalog, and the ICF catalog that replaced it, used the entire name as
a key and had no tree at all, other than the balanced tree used to
implement keys in VSAM.

>It is my understanding that regardless of the type of catalog
>(discounting hfs and zfs file systems) mvs dataset names are 
>just that. 

They are now; that wasn't always true. The restriction to 8 character
index level was due to SYSCTLG and CVOL, and is still with us now that
CVOL's are gone.

>And that while being similar to a unix/windows file name,

They aren't. E.g., MVS does not allow you to catalog a name with
imbedded blanks.

>Please explain in more detail so I can understand the distinction being
>made.

The major difference is that the periods have special significance,
even after the demise of CVOL's. There's not only the 8 character
limit on index levels, there's also the handling of multi-level
aliases (MLA's).

[1] SYSCTLG was basically just a special CVOL at the root.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Amazing article.

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In ,
on 05/08/2010
   at 07:11 AM, "McKown, John"  said:

>Not any from IBM that I am aware of. IBM's method implys a "stack" of
>GDGs,

There is no "IBM's method", only IBM's method*s*; as Larry Wall
claims, TMTOWTDI. In particular, you can read the catalog, extract the
GDS names and process them individually. You can even maintain a
record of what you've done with which.

>There is not an IBM way to process them from oldest to youngest.

Sure there is; use, e.g., CSI, then allocate each GDS that is of
interest and do what you want with it. If you're writing in Perl, use
file globs.

>you could do it with their "catsearch" program.

Is that a wrapper for CSI?
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Amazing article - Info on Collecting GDGs

[Jim Marshall]

>
>Not any from IBM that I am aware of. IBM's method implys a "stack" of GDGs, 
where (0) is always the newest one created. So if you're JCL refers to the 
current gen, it gets the youngest. There is not an IBM way to process them 
from oldest to youngest. Now, in a z/OS UNIX paradigm, using DoveTailed 
Technologies (love those people!), you could do it with their "catsearch" 
program. Similar to:
>
Found an very elementary ALC program to do it and cleaned it and added some 
ways to understand what was happening along with making it cleaner. Plus I 
generate IDCAMS DELETE records that can be passed to a later step to get rid 
of the GDG files processed.  We use it here when we can have a number of 
inbound data transmissions and the application needs to process the collection 
at night. We collect all the GDGs, put them into a backup GDG, and then 
process the file. If people are interested, let me know. 

thanks  jim 

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Re: Amazing article.

[Frank Swarbrick]

That's what I was afraid of.  Sounds like there's a need for some good GDG 
enhancement requests!
-- 

Frank Swarbrick
Applications Architect - Mainframe Applications Development
FirstBank Data Corporation - Lakewood, CO  USA
P: 303-235-1403


On 5/8/2010 at 7:54 AM, in message <4be56d2c.8000...@acm.org>, "Joel C. Ewing"
 wrote:
> We had exactly the same issue with user-demand of production jobs where
> users need to stage data for the run and multiple runs with different
> data may need to be queued when the job can't run immediately.  Standard
> GDG JCL support which, when you don't know how many generations exist,
> only makes it possible to address the most current generation, or all
> generations concatenated in "backwards" LIFO order, is pretty useless
> for this purpose.
>   Our solution was to have a "STAGE" step in the demand process that
> queues the data as the next generation of a job-specific GDG, and a
> "DESTAGE" step for the production job that uses REXX code to locate the
> oldest GDG generation, copy it to a fixed file name for processing by
> the job stream, and delete it.  In effect we use this process to turn
> GDG's into a First-In-First-Out stack, which makes them much more
> useful.  As long as you know the queue depth can't exceed 255 (max GDG
> limit value), it works quite well.
> 
>   Another approach that we have taken for some EDI data interchange
> processes to/from other installations is to use some form of timestamp
> as part of the file name to guarantee uniqueness and imply processing
> order.  Since JCL doesn't include features to support this approach,
> this generally requires some application on the MVS side that is able to
> do dynamic allocation and catalog query (e.g., REXX in batch TSO) in
> order to work with dynamic dataset names and select which files to process.
>Joel C Ewing
> 
> On 05/08/2010 07:12 AM, McKown, John wrote:
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
>>> [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Frank Swarbrick
>>> Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 5:48 PM
>>> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu 
>>> Subject: Re: Amazing article.
>>>
>>> It is useful to be able to receive the "second" generation 
>>> before processing the "first".  It is less useful that if 
>>> this happens you have to make a JCL change to be able to 
>>> process the older generation once a newer generation has been created.
>>>
>>> Are there standard ways of dealing with this?
>>>
>>> Signed, new MVS person.
>>> -- 
>>>
>>> Frank Swarbrick
>> 
>> Not any from IBM that I am aware of. IBM's method implys a "stack" of GDGs, 
> where (0) is always the newest one created. So if you're JCL refers to the 
> current gen, it gets the youngest. There is not an IBM way to process them 
> from oldest to youngest. Now, in a z/OS UNIX paradigm, using DoveTailed 
> Technologies (love those people!), you could do it with their "catsearch" 
> program. Similar to:
>> 
>> #!/bin/sh
>> catsearch MY.GDG.BASE.G* |\
>> while read gdg_entry; do
>>my_program ${gdg_entry}
>> end
>> 
>> 
>> You could also probably embed this is a REXX program similar to:
>> 
>> /* rexx */
>> stdout.0=0
>> stderr.0=0
>> call bpxwunix "/usr/local/bin/catsearch TSH009.PDS.P*",,stdout.,stderr.
>> do i=0 to stdout.0
>>say "Found DSN:"stdout.i
>> end
>> do i=0 to stderr.0
>>say "Error:"stderr.i
>> end
>> 
>> Where I have the "found DSN" SAY instruction, run your application.
>> 
>> --
>> John McKown 
>> Systems Engineer IV
>> IT
>> 
>> Administrative Services Group
>> 
>> HealthMarkets(r)
> ...

>>> 

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Re: Amazing article.

[Joel C. Ewing]

We had exactly the same issue with user-demand of production jobs where
users need to stage data for the run and multiple runs with different
data may need to be queued when the job can't run immediately.  Standard
GDG JCL support which, when you don't know how many generations exist,
only makes it possible to address the most current generation, or all
generations concatenated in "backwards" LIFO order, is pretty useless
for this purpose.
Our solution was to have a "STAGE" step in the demand process that
queues the data as the next generation of a job-specific GDG, and a
"DESTAGE" step for the production job that uses REXX code to locate the
oldest GDG generation, copy it to a fixed file name for processing by
the job stream, and delete it.  In effect we use this process to turn
GDG's into a First-In-First-Out stack, which makes them much more
useful.  As long as you know the queue depth can't exceed 255 (max GDG
limit value), it works quite well.

Another approach that we have taken for some EDI data interchange
processes to/from other installations is to use some form of timestamp
as part of the file name to guarantee uniqueness and imply processing
order.  Since JCL doesn't include features to support this approach,
this generally requires some application on the MVS side that is able to
do dynamic allocation and catalog query (e.g., REXX in batch TSO) in
order to work with dynamic dataset names and select which files to process.
   Joel C Ewing

On 05/08/2010 07:12 AM, McKown, John wrote:
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
>> [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Frank Swarbrick
>> Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 5:48 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
>> Subject: Re: Amazing article.
>>
>> It is useful to be able to receive the "second" generation 
>> before processing the "first".  It is less useful that if 
>> this happens you have to make a JCL change to be able to 
>> process the older generation once a newer generation has been created.
>>
>> Are there standard ways of dealing with this?
>>
>> Signed, new MVS person.
>> -- 
>>
>> Frank Swarbrick
> 
> Not any from IBM that I am aware of. IBM's method implys a "stack" of GDGs, 
> where (0) is always the newest one created. So if you're JCL refers to the 
> current gen, it gets the youngest. There is not an IBM way to process them 
> from oldest to youngest. Now, in a z/OS UNIX paradigm, using DoveTailed 
> Technologies (love those people!), you could do it with their "catsearch" 
> program. Similar to:
> 
> #!/bin/sh
> catsearch MY.GDG.BASE.G* |\
> while read gdg_entry; do
>my_program ${gdg_entry}
> end
> 
> 
> You could also probably embed this is a REXX program similar to:
> 
> /* rexx */
> stdout.0=0
> stderr.0=0
> call bpxwunix "/usr/local/bin/catsearch TSH009.PDS.P*",,stdout.,stderr.
> do i=0 to stdout.0
>say "Found DSN:"stdout.i
> end
> do i=0 to stderr.0
>say "Error:"stderr.i
> end
> 
> Where I have the "found DSN" SAY instruction, run your application.
> 
> --
> John McKown 
> Systems Engineer IV
> IT
> 
> Administrative Services Group
> 
> HealthMarkets(r)
...
-- 
Joel C. Ewing, Fort Smith, ARjremoveccapsew...@acm.org

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Re: Amazing article.

[McKown, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Frank Swarbrick
> Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 5:48 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: Amazing article.
> 
> It is useful to be able to receive the "second" generation 
> before processing the "first".  It is less useful that if 
> this happens you have to make a JCL change to be able to 
> process the older generation once a newer generation has been created.
> 
> Are there standard ways of dealing with this?
> 
> Signed, new MVS person.
> -- 
> 
> Frank Swarbrick

Not any from IBM that I am aware of. IBM's method implys a "stack" of GDGs, 
where (0) is always the newest one created. So if you're JCL refers to the 
current gen, it gets the youngest. There is not an IBM way to process them from 
oldest to youngest. Now, in a z/OS UNIX paradigm, using DoveTailed Technologies 
(love those people!), you could do it with their "catsearch" program. Similar 
to:

#!/bin/sh
catsearch MY.GDG.BASE.G* |\
while read gdg_entry; do
   my_program ${gdg_entry}
end


You could also probably embed this is a REXX program similar to:

/* rexx */
stdout.0=0
stderr.0=0
call bpxwunix "/usr/local/bin/catsearch TSH009.PDS.P*",,stdout.,stderr.
do i=0 to stdout.0
   say "Found DSN:"stdout.i
end
do i=0 to stderr.0
   say "Error:"stderr.i
end

Where I have the "found DSN" SAY instruction, run your application.

--
John McKown 
Systems Engineer IV
IT

Administrative Services Group

HealthMarkets(r)

9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010
(817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell
john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com

Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or 
proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact 
the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. 
HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the 
insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance 
Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The 
MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM

 

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Re: Amazing article.

[Frank Swarbrick]

Sorry, I was referring to GDG.  
Specifically, lets say the normal process is this:

Receive file.
RUn program.
Receive file
RUn program.

You are suggesting
Receive file (in to GDG).
Receive file (in to GDG).
Run program (Reading entire GDG)

That works in some cases, but probably not in others.  Specifically if you want 
one report run per file.
-- 

Frank Swarbrick
Applications Architect - Mainframe Applications Development
FirstBank Data Corporation - Lakewood, CO  USA
P: 303-235-1403


On 5/7/2010 at 5:34 PM, in message <4be4a375.20...@ix.netcom.com>, Bob Rutledge
 wrote:
> Frank Swarbrick wrote:
>> It is useful to be able to receive the "second" generation before processing 
> the "first".  It is less useful that if this happens you have to make a JCL 
> change to be able to process the older generation once a newer generation has 
> been created.
>> 
>> Are there standard ways of dealing with this?
>> 
>> Signed, new MVS person.
> 
> GDGs.  On the target system, read the entire group and dispense with it 
> (delete, 
> move, whatever but for sure uncatalog) when done.
> 
> Bob
> 
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>>> 

The information contained in this electronic communication and any document 
attached hereto or transmitted herewith is confidential and intended for the 
exclusive use of the individual or entity named above.  If the reader of this 
message is not the intended recipient or the employee or agent responsible for 
delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any 
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Re: Amazing article.

[Bob Rutledge]

Frank Swarbrick wrote:

It is useful to be able to receive the "second" generation before processing the 
"first".  It is less useful that if this happens you have to make a JCL change to be able 
to process the older generation once a newer generation has been created.

Are there standard ways of dealing with this?

Signed, new MVS person.


GDGs.  On the target system, read the entire group and dispense with it (delete, 
move, whatever but for sure uncatalog) when done.


Bob

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Re: Amazing article.

[Frank Swarbrick]

It is useful to be able to receive the "second" generation before processing 
the "first".  It is less useful that if this happens you have to make a JCL 
change to be able to process the older generation once a newer generation has 
been created.

Are there standard ways of dealing with this?

Signed, new MVS person.
-- 

Frank Swarbrick
Applications Architect - Mainframe Applications Development
FirstBank Data Corporation - Lakewood, CO  USA
P: 303-235-1403


On 5/7/2010 at 10:35 AM, in message
, Kirk
Talman  wrote:
> IBM Mainframe Discussion List  wrote on 05/06/2010 
> 04:34:31 PM:
> 
>> From: Patrick Lyon 
> 
>> >And when talking to Unix/Windows folks, explaining (over and over)
>> >that dataset nodes are not directory paths and that PDS(E) can only be
>> >1 level deep.
>> >
>> >As well as they way GDGs work (unless they have a VAX background).
>> 
>> You'll have to excuse them.  They only understand what they call "modern 
> 
>> technology".
> 
> "You didn't send us a file yesterday/x hrs ago."
> 
> Explain to a customer that if they want to have more than one transmission 
> to a file on their squatty box in a given time period, they must process 
> that file before the next transmission.  Or they can pay for multiple 
> transmission setups.  Or the file will be overlaid.
> 
> The semantic problem is most of us experience new as more complicated than 
> old.  But modern does not equal more capable.
> 
> -
> The information contained in this communication (including any
> attachments hereto) is confidential and is intended solely for the
> personal and confidential use of the individual or entity to whom
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> recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended
> recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this
> communication in error and that any review, dissemination, copying,
> or unauthorized use of this information, or the taking of any
> action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly
> prohibited. If you have received this communication in error,
> please notify us immediately by e-mail, and delete the original
> message. Thank you 
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>>> 

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Re: Amazing article.

[Kirk Talman]

IBM Mainframe Discussion List  wrote on 05/06/2010 
04:34:31 PM:

> From: Patrick Lyon 

> >And when talking to Unix/Windows folks, explaining (over and over)
> >that dataset nodes are not directory paths and that PDS(E) can only be
> >1 level deep.
> >
> >As well as they way GDGs work (unless they have a VAX background).
> 
> You'll have to excuse them.  They only understand what they call "modern 

> technology".

"You didn't send us a file yesterday/x hrs ago."

Explain to a customer that if they want to have more than one transmission 
to a file on their squatty box in a given time period, they must process 
that file before the next transmission.  Or they can pay for multiple 
transmission setups.  Or the file will be overlaid.

The semantic problem is most of us experience new as more complicated than 
old.  But modern does not equal more capable.

-
The information contained in this communication (including any
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recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this
communication in error and that any review, dissemination, copying,
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prohibited. If you have received this communication in error,
please notify us immediately by e-mail, and delete the original
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Re: Amazing article.

[Finley, Frank]

For most Windows people, it would probably be better if they thought of it like 
a directory.  I would think any experience Unix person would understand the 
differences.  Unless they are learning how to support the system directly, it 
functions close enough that for any work they might be doing they would never 
know the difference.  From a RACF dataset profile they function very similar.

For the slightly elevated user with minimal training, sometimes they don't need 
the sticky details, and should just know the basic rules.  

GDG's are like a big Zip file for people without any programming background, 
it's an array for anyone that's done programming.

I've heard just as many bad assumptions made from the Mainframe types about 
Windows and Linux as well, so it's not necessarily stupidity, but lack of 
education, and too much pride in your own has a lot to do with it. 

I've heard the statement so many times that the Mainframe is "unhackable" that 
I use it as the first sign that I need to double check someone's work.  How 
"Hackable" a system is has a lot more to do with the person behind the keyboard 
configuring the thing, and less to do with what software your "series of tubes" 
is running, be it Z/OS, Unix, Windows, or Mac.


Frank Finley, CISSP
Information System Security Officer
Pay and Personnel Center
785-339-3578 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Sam Siegel
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 6:16 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: Amazing article.

On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 2:48 AM, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
 wrote:
> In , on
> 05/06/2010
>   at 09:30 PM, Sam Siegel  said:
>
>>And when talking to Unix/Windows folks, explaining (over and over) that
>>dataset nodes are not directory paths
>
> You're not using CVOL's any more?

Hi,

I'm commenting from the perspective of a developer.  I'm not sure that
I understand the distinctions being made.

It is my understanding that regardless of the type of catalog
(discounting hfs and zfs file systems) mvs dataset names are just
that.  And that while being similar to a unix/windows file name, they
are very different from a unix/windows directory path.

Please explain in more detail so I can understand the distinction being made.

Cheers
>
> --
>     Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
>     ISO position; see <http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html>
> We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
> (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)
>
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Re: Amazing article.

[Sam Siegel]

On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 2:48 AM, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
 wrote:
> In , on
> 05/06/2010
>   at 09:30 PM, Sam Siegel  said:
>
>>And when talking to Unix/Windows folks, explaining (over and over) that
>>dataset nodes are not directory paths
>
> You're not using CVOL's any more?

Hi,

I'm commenting from the perspective of a developer.  I'm not sure that
I understand the distinctions being made.

It is my understanding that regardless of the type of catalog
(discounting hfs and zfs file systems) mvs dataset names are just
that.  And that while being similar to a unix/windows file name, they
are very different from a unix/windows directory path.

Please explain in more detail so I can understand the distinction being made.

Cheers
>
> --
>     Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
>     ISO position; see 
> We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
> (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)
>
> --
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Re: Amazing article.

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In , on
05/06/2010
   at 09:30 PM, Sam Siegel  said:

>And when talking to Unix/Windows folks, explaining (over and over) that
>dataset nodes are not directory paths

You're not using CVOL's any more?
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Amazing article.

[Patrick Lyon]

On Thu, 6 May 2010 21:30:40 +0100, Sam Siegel  wrote:

>
>And when talking to Unix/Windows folks, explaining (over and over)
>that dataset nodes are not directory paths and that PDS(E) can only be
>1 level deep.
>
>As well as they way GDGs work (unless they have a VAX background).
>


You'll have to excuse them.  They only understand what they call "modern 
technology".

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Re: Amazing article.

[Sam Siegel]

On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 9:25 PM, R.S.  wrote:
> W dniu 2010-05-06 19:10, McKown, John pisze:
>>
>> http://www.daniweb.com/news/story281427.html
>>
>> Friend of the author declared with all seriousness that every business,
>> large and small, is now almost totally Windows based, even in the server
>> environment. The friend actually seems to have believed it to be true.
>
> I'm often asked what Windows version I run on my mainframe server. "No
> Windows? C'mon, you have to run some operating system!".
> The above comes from non-IT people.
>
> Version for IT interlocutors:
> "Mainframe? z/OS? Is it a clone of AIX? Linux? C'mon! Since it's not
> Windows, it must be any non-Windows operating system! [=>] It must be kind
> of Unix!".
>
> It must be Friday.
> Version for MVS-like interlocutors (note: MVS, not z/OS!)
> "DFSMS? Well... Do you really think it's usable?
> Ahh! That's why my passwords for ICFcatalogs don't work! So, they dropped
> support for VSAM passwords? What a pity! We have to rethink how to protect
> our catalogs.
> LOCANY=YES is not stable in my opinion.
> Tape Management System? Why should I use it?
> OMVS segment does not allow you to use unix interface unless you have
> UID(0).
> OPERATIONS is the best way to assign necessary rights to datasets.
> Why should I customize default REGION size? 1M is the best deafult I can
> imagine.
> MSGCLASS=X is mandatory. I don't know why, but I'm perfectly sure it'd
> necessary. Oh, I know! Without that your output would be purged!
> Yes, we protect *all* the commands. Absolutely! See MVS.** profile - it
> covers everything.
> What kind of exit could we use to protect job name? JESJOBS??? Does it
> really works? It must something really new, I haven't checked all the
> features that arrived during last upgrade.
> REXX! I would simply use plain assembler for that! [10+ lines code to
> retrieve LPAR name]
> DR plan? Just stop the application perform physical dump of the volumes and
> move them to DR site. Few hours outage during the night wouldn't be a
> problem"
> Etc.
> Oh, the above are *true* sentences I heard working as a consultant.
> 

And when talking to Unix/Windows folks, explaining (over and over)
that dataset nodes are not directory paths and that PDS(E) can only be
1 level deep.

As well as they way GDGs work (unless they have a VAX background).

>
>
> --
> Radoslaw Skorupka
> Lodz, Poland
>
>
> --
> BRE Bank SA
> ul. Senatorska 18
> 00-950 Warszawa
> www.brebank.pl
>
> S d Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia  Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru
> S dowego, nr rejestru przedsi biorców KRS 025237
> NIP: 526-021-50-88
> Wed ug stanu na dzie  01.01.2009 r. kapita  zak adowy BRE Banku SA (w ca o
> ci wp acony) wynosi 118.763.528 z otych. W zwi zku z realizacj  warunkowego
> podwy szenia kapita u zak adowego, na podstawie uchwa y XXI WZ z dnia 16
> marca 2008r., oraz uchwa y XVI NWZ z dnia 27 pa dziernika 2008r., mo e ulec
> podwy szeniu do kwoty 123.763.528 z . Akcje w podwy szonym kapitale zak
> adowym BRE Banku SA b d  w ca o ci op acone.
>
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Re: Amazing article.

[R.S.]

W dniu 2010-05-06 19:10, McKown, John pisze:

http://www.daniweb.com/news/story281427.html

Friend of the author declared with all seriousness that every business, large 
and small, is now almost totally Windows based, even in the server environment. 
The friend actually seems to have believed it to be true.


I'm often asked what Windows version I run on my mainframe server. "No 
Windows? C'mon, you have to run some operating system!".

The above comes from non-IT people.

Version for IT interlocutors:
"Mainframe? z/OS? Is it a clone of AIX? Linux? C'mon! Since it's not 
Windows, it must be any non-Windows operating system! [=>] It must be 
kind of Unix!".


It must be Friday.
Version for MVS-like interlocutors (note: MVS, not z/OS!)
"DFSMS? Well... Do you really think it's usable?
Ahh! That's why my passwords for ICFcatalogs don't work! So, they 
dropped support for VSAM passwords? What a pity! We have to rethink how 
to protect our catalogs.

LOCANY=YES is not stable in my opinion.
Tape Management System? Why should I use it?
OMVS segment does not allow you to use unix interface unless you have 
UID(0).

OPERATIONS is the best way to assign necessary rights to datasets.
Why should I customize default REGION size? 1M is the best deafult I can 
imagine.
MSGCLASS=X is mandatory. I don't know why, but I'm perfectly sure it'd 
necessary. Oh, I know! Without that your output would be purged!
Yes, we protect *all* the commands. Absolutely! See MVS.** profile - it 
covers everything.
What kind of exit could we use to protect job name? JESJOBS??? Does it 
really works? It must something really new, I haven't checked all the 
features that arrived during last upgrade.
REXX! I would simply use plain assembler for that! [10+ lines code to 
retrieve LPAR name]
DR plan? Just stop the application perform physical dump of the volumes 
and move them to DR site. Few hours outage during the night wouldn't be 
a problem"

Etc.
Oh, the above are *true* sentences I heard working as a consultant.



--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland


--
BRE Bank SA
ul. Senatorska 18
00-950 Warszawa
www.brebank.pl

Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy 
XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, 
nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237

NIP: 526-021-50-88
Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2009 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci 
wpacony) wynosi 118.763.528 zotych. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego 
podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchway XXI WZ z dnia 16 marca 
2008r., oraz uchway XVI NWZ z dnia 27 padziernika 2008r., moe ulec 
podwyszeniu do kwoty 123.763.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym 
BRE Banku SA bd w caoci opacone.

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Amazing article.

[McKown, John]

http://www.daniweb.com/news/story281427.html

Friend of the author declared with all seriousness that every business, large 
and small, is now almost totally Windows based, even in the server environment. 
The friend actually seems to have believed it to be true.

John McKown
Systems Engineer IV
IT

Administrative Services Group

HealthMarkets(r)

9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010
(817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell
john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com

Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or 
proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact 
the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. 
HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the 
insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance 
Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The 
MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM


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