Re: Old hardware (Was: Mainframe programming vs the Web)
> -Original Message- > From: Shmuel Metz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 1:16 PM > To: Lester, Bob > Subject: Re: Old hardware (Was: Mainframe programming vs the Web) > > Offline. > > In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on > 05/15/2008 > at 04:54 PM, "Lester, Bob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > > > Do you know if the 360/75 was a common machine at the time? > > I believe that the 360/75, 360/91 and 360/95 were too expensive to be > common, and that the largest common machine was the 360/65. > > > I worked as an operator on a 360/75J (and a 360/30). Seems to me > >that ours ran MFT? (later MVT?). This would've been around 1979. > > I would have expected MVT by 1979, or at least MFT II. > > -- Hi Shmuel, Hmmm, I'm not sure. We had MVT later on, and had HASP during that time, but I'm not sure of the level of MFT - I was just a dumb operator at the time. We may well have been behind the curve as this was a military installation. It was a long time ago. I do remember having to clear memory (maybe called "ripple core"?) on the 360/75. Fun machine. Lots of lights and toggles. Back then, it was an impressive sight in the machine room with all the overhead lights out. I was an operator at the time, and remember starting jobs with an "h=1" parameter - using a modified selectric typewriter (with the big "attention" button) as the console. H=1 indicated that the job was to run using LCS (Large Core Storage? - 2MB on an outboard box the size of a large refrigerator), which was the slow storage. I'm thinking we had 1MB of main storage on that machine. Later replaced by a 3033-N8. Another interesting machine. Heavy disk packs! Sorry, just strolling down memory lane. :-) Bob Lester -- This e-mail transmission may contain information that is proprietary, privileged and/or confidential and is intended exclusively for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any use, copying, retention or disclosure by any person other than the intended recipient or the intended recipient's designees is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient or their designee, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete all copies. OppenheimerFunds may, at its sole discretion, monitor, review, retain and/or disclose the content of all email communications. == -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Old hardware (Was: Mainframe programming vs the Web)
--- We (TAB of NSW as it was then) had a pair of these old dears(360/44s, that is). We actually had the 'Commercial Feature" which gave you LM/STM, BXLE and BXH implemented in hardware, but the storage-to-torage and packed decimal instructions were all emulated (slowly!) via an IBM supplied program ( the emulator deck) which was a stand alone program you had to ipl into extension storage. We were not allowed to use these instruction in our online system, (not surprisingly!) --- We also implemented some S/370 instructions in the emulator. We started with the "improved" emulator from Florida Power Co. and inserted code for ICM/STCM. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Old hardware (Was: Mainframe programming vs the Web)
We (TAB of NSW as it was then) had a pair of these old dears(360/44s, that is). We actually had the 'Commercial Feature" which gave you LM/STM, BXLE and BXH implemented in hardware, but the storage-to-torage and packed decimal instructions were all emulated (slowly!) via an IBM supplied program ( the emulator deck) which was a stand alone program you had to ipl into extension storage. We were not allowed to use these instruction in our online system, (not surprisingly!) Philip Steele EDS Tabcorp Account 495 Harris St Ultimo NSW 2007 Tel: +61 2 92181241 E-mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] We deliver on our commitments so you can deliver on yours. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Fochtman Sent: Friday, 16 May 2008 11:12 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Old hardware (Was: Mainframe programming vs the Web) --- The Model 75 was the smallest machine that implemented the System/360 instruction set in hardware, so it was correspondingly expensive. Let's not forget the 360/44. Except for the LM/STM/BXLE/BXH and Commercial Feature, it was a hardware-based instruction set. Implementation of the Commercial Feature was, and is, a whole different discussion. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html *** PLEASE NOTE: This internet email message has been checked for viruses and appropriate content to ensure it complies with TABCORP's electronic communication policy. *** *** The information in this e-mail message and any files transmitted with it are intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. The message and files may be protected by legal professional privilege, or other legal rules. The confidentiality of and privilege applying to this message and files is not waived if this message or files has been sent to you by mistake. If the reader of this message or files is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, distribution or copying of this message and files are strictly prohibited. If you receive this message or files in error, please notify us immediately by telephone or return e-mail and delete all copies from your computer system. It is the recipient's responsibility to check this message and files for viruses. Thank you. *** -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Old hardware (Was: Mainframe programming vs the Web)
> By 1979 360/75s were 10+ years old.
By 1979, 360/75s were 13-14 years old. TUCC in RTP, NC got one of
the very first early in 1966. I was told in 1967 by one of the CEs
in residence at TUCC that it wasn't the first one out of the barn,
but it was nearly so. We knew that NASA had ordered five, and you
can find references on the web that claim NASA installed them in
the Fall of 1965, but which ones in the manufacturing sequence the
actual NASA machines were was a "we can't talk about that" issue
at the time. For one thing, I think NASA got them early, before
first-day orders from real customers were shipped. Another issue
is that their delivery was rushed (already being later than IBM
had promised) in order to prevent NASA from giving up on IBM 360s
and using CDC 6600 machines exclusively. Additionally, the 360/75s
sent to NASA had an RPQ modification to provide a real-time GMT
clock facility ("Store GMT" was the instruction name, I think).
The five Model 75 machines that NASA used for the Apollo project
were no longer needed by 1973, and were turned over for use as
development machines for the Space Shuttle software development.
They were used for that job until January 1982. JPL in California
picked up two Model 75s from NASA (one of them had the "Store GMT"
RPQ, which turned out not to be sufficient for JPL's purposes, and
they had to get IBM to extend it with more bits), and then JPL did
something surprising even then: they BOUGHT a third 75, which they
used until August 1983.
That August 1983 date is the latest that I have ever heard that a
Model 75 was actually in use. Univ. of Waterloo got rid of theirs
(as junk, but valuable junk because of the gold in the SLT cards)
in late 1979 or early 1980 (it was turned off for some number of
months before they actually physically got rid of it).
According to this web page:
http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP2075.html
the Model 75 was "withdrawn March 15, 1977." It also indicates
"... the Model 75 had a monthly rental range of $50,000 to $80,000,
and a purchase price range of $2.2 million to $3.5 million.
Deliveries began during the fourth quarter of 1965."
That purchase price range seems a little high, so it is possible
that what they are referring to is the 1977 purchase price for a
2075, instead of the 1965 to 1968-era price (before unbundling).
But, surprisingly, that monthly rental price range (presumably
referring to the low-end 2075-H [256 KB] thru the high-end 2075-J
[1,024 KB]) seems a little low. I have original documentation for
the exact equipment prices [as published by IBM] as of Aug. 1968,
and used those figures to make my calculations. In addition, I
have original documentation for what TUCC was paying IBM (after
their 40% educational discount); each set is consistent. Thus, I
can only conclude that the IBM web site price figures represent
lower monthly rentals at end of equipment life, but also a higher
outright purchase price 12 years after its original announcement.
--
WB
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Re: Old hardware (Was: Mainframe programming vs the Web)
The two 360/75s in building 3/14 of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center were not replaced until the early 1980's - along with the 360/95. The old 360s were still the primary tracking support systems for the first couple Space Shuttle missions. >>> Bob Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 5/15/2008 7:15 PM >>> Do you mean 1969? By 1979 360/75s were 10+ years old. I did see a shiny new 360/75 at Gulf Research, probably in 1967. Bob Note that my email domain has changed from jo-annstores.com to joann.com. Please update your address book and other records to reflect this change. CONFIDENTIALITY/EMAIL NOTICE: The material in this transmission contains confidential and privileged information intended only for the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, please be advised that you have received this material in error and that any forwarding, copying, printing, distribution, use or disclosure of the material is strictly prohibited. If you have received this material in error, please (i) do not read it, (ii) reply to the sender that you received the message in error, and (iii) erase or destroy the material. Emails are not secure and can be intercepted, amended, lost or destroyed, or contain viruses. You are deemed to have accepted these risks if you communicate with us by email. Thank you. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Old hardware (Was: Mainframe programming vs the Web)
> -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of William H. Blair > Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 7:28 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Old hardware (Was: Mainframe programming vs the Web) > > > The System/360 Model 75 was not an UNcommon machine (as were > the Models 91, 95, 85 and 195) but it was not exactly common. > Only VERY large shops would feel the need for one. NASA had ---snip--- William, Very interesting info, and it matches what I remember. We did have this beast in 1979. It was a military installation. It was later replaced by a 3033. Thanks! Bob Lester -- This e-mail transmission may contain information that is proprietary, privileged and/or confidential and is intended exclusively for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any use, copying, retention or disclosure by any person other than the intended recipient or the intended recipient's designees is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient or their designee, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete all copies. OppenheimerFunds may, at its sole discretion, monitor, review, retain and/or disclose the content of all email communications. == -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Old hardware (Was: Mainframe programming vs the Web)
--- The Model 75 was the smallest machine that implemented the System/360 instruction set in hardware, so it was correspondingly expensive. Let's not forget the 360/44. Except for the LM/STM/BXLE/BXH and Commercial Feature, it was a hardware-based instruction set. Implementation of the Commercial Feature was, and is, a whole different discussion. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Old hardware (Was: Mainframe programming vs the Web)
1980 - got into IBM systems programming. First job - a 360/65 and 360/75J running MVT. Later that year we installed to 4341s running VM and had MVT as a guest, thanks to the Michigan mods tape for the clock and some JES programming to print jobs with MVT headers. Eventually we put in VS/1 7.0C entirely installed and maintained from VM. And I loved it all! Daniel McLaughlin Z-Series Systems Programmer Information & Communications Technology Crawford & Company 4680 N. Royal Atlanta Tucker GA 30084 phone: 770-621-3256 fax: 770-621-3237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.crawfordandcompany.com IBM Mainframe Discussion List wrote on 05/15/2008 06:54:19 PM: > "Lester, Bob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent by: IBM Mainframe Discussion List > > 05/15/2008 06:54 PM > > Please respond to > IBM Mainframe Discussion List > > To > > IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU > > cc > > Subject > > Old hardware (Was: Mainframe programming vs the Web) > > -- Information from the mail header > --- > Sender: IBM Mainframe Discussion List > Poster: "Lester, Bob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Old hardware (Was: Mainframe programming vs the Web) > --- > > > -Original Message- > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > > Behalf Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) > > Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 2:13 PM > > To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU > > > > It was DOS/360, on a 360/75, at the University of Waterloo. > > > > Hi Shmuel, > > Do you know if the 360/75 was a common machine at the time? > > I worked as an operator on a 360/75J (and a 360/30). Seems to me > that ours ran MFT? (later MVT?). This would've been around 1979. > > Just curious (and it's almost Friday). > > Cheers! > Bob Lester > > -- > This e-mail transmission may contain information that is > proprietary, privileged and/or confidential and is intended > exclusively for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any use, > copying, retention or disclosure by any person other than the > intended recipient or the intended recipient's designees is strictly > prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient or their designee, > please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete all > copies. OppenheimerFunds may, at its sole discretion, monitor, > review, retain and/or disclose the content of all email communications. > == > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO > Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html > > Best Overall Third-Party Claims Administrator - 2007 "Business Insurance" Readers Choice Awards Consider the environment before printing this message. This transmission is intended exclusively for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This communication may contain information that is confidential, proprietary, privileged or otherwise exempt from disclosure. If you are not the named addressee, you are NOT authorized to read, print, retain, copy or disseminate this communication, its attachments or any part of them. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this communication from all computers. This communication does not form any contractual obligation on behalf of the sender, the sender's employer, or the employer's parent company, affiliates or subsidiaries. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Old hardware (Was: Mainframe programming vs the Web)
On Thu, 15 May 2008 20:27:31 -0500, William H. Blair <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >The System/360 Model 75 was not an UNcommon machine (as were >the Models 91, 95, 85 and 195) but it was not exactly common. >Only VERY large shops would feel the need for one. NASA had >five which were used to support the Apollo moon program. And >lots of universities had one or two. For businesses, a 360/40 >or 360/50 were "common." Big businesses might have a 360/65 >or two (instead of a 360/75, since it was almost as fast, but >much cheaper). <- Wonderful post snipped for brevity --> Thank you for that, William. I was told that there were five model 75's in the UK, and I worked on three of them. Two were at IBM's Havant plant where they made 165's and 168's, the other one was CDC Data Services (formerly ITT Data Services) at Barnet. IBM also had a model 50 and CDC had a 65 running some time sharing software. The IBM machines ran MFT-II as did the CDC one when I joined, but we migrated to MVT so we could have TSO. Operating System MTBF at Barnet was less than 24 hours, I think the IBM machines were more reliable but then CDC was a Service Bureau and developers did strange things. CDC ran HASP-II but I think the IBM machines used readers and writers. One of them had an old tape drive converted to write on 8 inch floppy disks (a Dolphin drive after the Havant pub) which held the microcode on the 168s. One of the Havant 75's had to have all its logic cards replaced, we Ops were told it was because of alminium migration, but that may have been a CE windup. I left CDC in 1975 and it was only about a year before I was again using a one MIP machine when Monsanto replaced their 145 with a 158-3. This of course was TINY compared to the old 75s - how did they fit all that power into such a small box? We hadn't heard of Moore's Law then. TGIF Dave -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Old hardware (Was: Mainframe programming vs the Web)
Bob Lester wrote: > Do you know if the 360/75 was a common machine at the time? > I worked as an operator on a 360/75J (and a 360/30). The System/360 Model 75 was not an UNcommon machine (as were the Models 91, 95, 85 and 195) but it was not exactly common. Only VERY large shops would feel the need for one. NASA had five which were used to support the Apollo moon program. And lots of universities had one or two. For businesses, a 360/40 or 360/50 were "common." Big businesses might have a 360/65 or two (instead of a 360/75, since it was almost as fast, but much cheaper). The Model 75 was the smallest machine that implemented the System/360 instruction set in hardware, so it was correspondingly expensive. Without memory, a bare 360/75 cost ~$1,012,860 in 1965 $$$s. Memory was ~$1.54 per byte, so a 360/75 J (1024 KB or 1 MB) would have cost $2,583,860 (approximately). But very, very few customers actually purchased computers from IBM at that time. The vast majority simply rented them. The third-party leasing business had not yet arrived on the scene. Here is what a typical 360/75 configuration would have cost a "real" customer (that is, not an educational institution, to whom IBM rented equipment at a 40% discount) in August of 1968: $ 39,308 2075 360/75 CPU 63,532 (4) 2365 256 KB core storage units (1024 KB) 12,875 (5) 2860 Selector Channels 4,460 (1) 2870 Multiplexer Channel 1,050 2150 console attachment + 1052 console typewriter 36,060 (4) 2314 Disk Facility (8 drives ea.) 2,000 (100) 2316 Disk packs (for 2314s) 5,278 (1) 2401 + (4) 2402 tape drives + (1) 2803 control unit 4,808 2821 control unit + 2540 card reader/punch + 1403 printer + 1416 print train (see note) 6,590 2703 "Teleprocessing" (TM IBM) Control Unit 17,300 (100) 029 keypunches 0 OS/360 software + compilers + any other programming 0 (2) resident, on-site IBM System Engineers, dedicated to the customer, to support the SCP software, and any- thing else that the customer wanted them to do. 0 (5) resident, on-site IBM Customer Engineers, whose job was to bang screwdriver handles on the floating point card cage at 4 AM when the machine red-lighted and machine checked. $193,261 Total (that's PER MONTH, boys and girls, in 1968 $s) (NOTE: It was asserted in the IBM anti-trust trial discovery that IBM made more PROFIT on RENTAL of JUST print trains for IBM 1403 printers than the GROSS revenues of ALL of the other computer hardware vendors that competed with IBM - combined.) In those days, the software was "free" (i.e., no extra charge). People were cheap, hardware was expensive. In terms of its raw instruction processing power, a 360/75 had about the computing capacity equivalent to an Intel 80286 6 MHz processor (the IBM PC/AT used a 6 MHz CPU when it first shipped in 1982). But the 360/75 had 1.2 MB/sec channels, and it could support 6 of them. The PC/AT or indeed most Intel-based systems up until recently would have had a hard time keeping up with the 57.6Mb/s data transfer rate of a 360/75 (or 360/65, which was equivalent). Those 256KB 2365 core storage units were an amazing piece of gear. Core density was 455 bits/cubic inch. They sucked power and generated enormous amounts of heat. You could fry eggs on the heat vents (and yes, we did that more than once, just to show off for folks who were not impressed by the size of that beast alone, all 10 frames of it [for just the CPU+memory]). > Seems to me that ours ran MFT? (later MVT?). That might have been the case. The first release of MVT was OS/360 Release 13 (FCS 08/14/67) but MVT didn't get its act together until Release 17 in 1969. So most folks continued to run MFT-I (Release 14 CMR) -- or MFT-II (Release 15/16) -- until about 1970 or '71 when Release 18.6 became available. > This would've been around 1979. Only universities and IBM itself, plus folks who had actually purchased a 360/75, would have been using one as late as 1979. If you were renting one (the only other option available from IBM at that time), then you long ago moved on to both faster and cheaper (via leasing, which was now getting started) gear. By the end of 1971, 360/155 and 360/165 boxes were displacing the high-end S/360 boxes, and the 370/145 was displacing the low-end S/360 boxes. I know that the University of Waterloo kept their (famous) Model 75 around for a long time, but by 1974, basically, they were becoming as rare as hen's teeth. Unless you worked in such a place, I really doubt that you were operating a 360/75 in 1979. In fact, so many 360/50 machines were being returned to IBM (off rental), being replaced by either a 370/155 or 370/165, that IBM was able to plan to build all core memory units for the 370/165 processor from used (although re-built with new electronics) 360/50 core memory. It took 4 of the usual size (512 KB) 360/50 machines to get enough core me
Re: Old hardware (Was: Mainframe programming vs the Web)
>Do you mean 1969? By 1979 360/75s were 10+ years old. I went to the University of Waterloo (1976-1980), and I was told it was a 360/40, at the time. But, I do remember when it was replaced with a 303x machine. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Old hardware (Was: Mainframe programming vs the Web)
Do you mean 1969? By 1979 360/75s were 10+ years old. I did see a shiny new 360/75 at Gulf Research, probably in 1967. Bob Lester, Bob wrote: -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 2:13 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU It was DOS/360, on a 360/75, at the University of Waterloo. Hi Shmuel, Do you know if the 360/75 was a common machine at the time? I worked as an operator on a 360/75J (and a 360/30). Seems to me that ours ran MFT? (later MVT?). This would've been around 1979. Just curious (and it's almost Friday). Cheers! Bob Lester -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Old hardware (Was: Mainframe programming vs the Web)
> -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) > Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 2:13 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU > > It was DOS/360, on a 360/75, at the University of Waterloo. > Hi Shmuel, Do you know if the 360/75 was a common machine at the time? I worked as an operator on a 360/75J (and a 360/30). Seems to me that ours ran MFT? (later MVT?). This would've been around 1979. Just curious (and it's almost Friday). Cheers! Bob Lester -- This e-mail transmission may contain information that is proprietary, privileged and/or confidential and is intended exclusively for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any use, copying, retention or disclosure by any person other than the intended recipient or the intended recipient's designees is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient or their designee, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete all copies. OppenheimerFunds may, at its sole discretion, monitor, review, retain and/or disclose the content of all email communications. == -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
