Re: SPF in 1978

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011p.html#106 SPF in 1978
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011p.html#107 SPF in 1978

I had originally done extended sharing on cp67 along with paged-mapped
CMS filesystem ... which I then converted to vm370 ... some old email
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006v.html#email731212
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006w.html#email750102
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006w.html#email750430

with respect to "csc/vm" in the above ... one of my hobbies was making
enhanced operating systems available to internal datacenter ... first
with cp67 and then later with vm370.

during the "future system" period ... some old posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#futuresys

I continued to do 360/370 stuff (even when future system was killing off 370 
efforts) ... and periodically would ridicule future system activities.

after the demise of future system, there was mad rush to get stuff
back into 370 product pipelines ... which motivated decision to
release various bits & pieces of stuff that I had been doing. A small
subset of the sharing stuff (w/o the paged mapped filesystem support)
was including in vm370 release 3 as DCSS.

the following is exchange with the SPF group about trying to map SPF
into a "shared module" (as opposed to DCSS sharing).

Date: 11/07/79 14:53:27
From: wheeler
To: somebody in GBURG SPF group

The SPF module starts (begins) at location x'2' and end somewhere
close to x'7' (actually around x'6a000'). If I load and genmod
SPF it ordinarily creates a MODULE which starts at location x'2'
and ends around x'6a000', i.e. those core locations are written to disk.
When I invoke SPF the SPF MODULE file is read into locations starting
at the start of the module (x'2') and ending at the end of the
module (x'6a000').
--
Shared module support is an enhancement to VM and CMS which allows
specification at GENMOD time which segments (16 page groups) are to
be shared. The segments to be shared must be occupied by the module
being genmod'ed (i.e segment 2: x'2' thru x'3'; segment 3:
x'3' thru x'4', etc.).
--
Ordinarily I would LOAD SPF
   GENMOD SPF
--
for shared modules I
   LOAD SPF
   reset module ending address to x'7'
   GENMOD SPF (share 2 3 4 5 6
--
Now at loadmod time, in addition to reading the SPF MODULE file into
the specified core locations (i.e. x'2' thru x'7') it
also identifies to CP that segments 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 are SPF shared
segments. For all other programs that I have been involved with,
that works satisfactory (i.e. the same code runs in discontiguous
shared segments, runs in modules, runs in shared modules) and modules
which did not change internal code locations while a discontiguous
shared module also do not change internal code locations while a
module and/or a shared module. As I read your reply, SPF is
altering 8 bytes of core at absolute location x'2' independently
of whether or not that location is contained within the module.
If I were to:
   LOAD SPF (origin 3
   reset module ending address to x'8'
   GENMOD SPF (share 3 4 5 6 7
there would not be any problems?  since SPF is not storing into a
relative module core location (i.e. start of the 1st SPF module + x'0' bytes)
but into absolute location x'2'.

... snip ...

and the response about why there were still problems: as an aside ...
1979 GBURG SPF group appeared to still be using all upper case

Date: 11/07/79
To: wheeler
From: somebody in GBURG SPF group

LYNN,
THANKS FOR SENDING THE DESCRIPTION OF SHARED MODULES.  I HAVEN'T
STUDIED IT IN DETAIL, BUT DID READ THROUGH IT.  VERY INTERESTING.

YOUR IDEA OF STARTING SPF AT 3 INSTEAD OF 2 WOULD AVOID 
THE "SHARED" VIOLATION AS WE STORE INTO LOCATION 2.  HOWEVER, 
THAT WILL NOT SOLVE ALL THE PROBLEMS.  IN SPF, THE WAY WE DETERMINE 
WHETHER WE ARE RUNNING IN THE USER AREA (TEST MODE) OR IN
DCSS, IS TO COMPARE THE ADDRESS OF THE FIRST PROGRAM (HAPPENS TO BE
NAMED SPF) TO THE VALUE '2'.  IF IT IS NOT THERE, IT IS ASSUMED
THAT WE ARE IN DCSS.  THE IMPLICATION IS THAT SPF WILL NOT RELOAD
ITSELF FOLLOWING A FOREGROUND COMPILE, OR CMS COMMAND THAT USES
THE USER AREA.  IF MY UNDERSTANDING OF "SHARED MODULES" IS CORRECT,
I AM AFRAID THAT, AT LEAST IN THE NEAR TERM, THERE IS NOTHING I
CAN DO THAT WILL PERMIT SPF TO OPERATE CORRECTLY IN YOUR SPECIAL
ENVIRONMENT.  FEEL FREE TO WRITE OR CALL.
   REGARDS,
   XXX

... snip ...

later exchange about SPF being a real "pig" of an application:

Date: 02/21/80 12:59:12
To: wheeler

Hi, Lynn,
Do you have SPF/CMS installed, or know anybod

Re: SPF in 1978

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <5629230113656657.wa.jim.marshallopm@bama.ua.edu>, on
12/22/2011
   at 11:46 AM, Jim Marshall  said:

>Later in the early 1980s it morphed into ISPF and a few years later
>it split into ISPF and PDF.  PDF came with all the facilities to
>write ISPF applications.  It was for those who did not want to buy
>the precoded ISPF dialogs.

ISPF was a prerequisite for ISPF/PDF. PDF added a number of panels and
utilities, but the basic[1] tools needed to right an ISPF application
were part of the basic ISPF.

[1] I don't recall where, e.g., DTLC, were.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: SPF in 1978

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

eric-ibmm...@wi.rr.com (Eric Bielefeld) writes:
> You're career sounds frighteningly like mine.  I started as a systems
> programmer in 1978 at Milwaukee County, where I worked before as an
> operator and then an applications programmer.  We had a 3032 also, but
> I thought it came in around 1975 or so.  I may be wrong.
>
> I remember our conversion from VS1 to MVS 3.7, which was in 1978 and
> early 79.  I think we used a Panvalet product for the editor in VS1.
> I liked SPF on MVS 3.7 a lot better.
>
> I also did VM.  I can't remember when I started doing VM, but I know
> it was finally retired in Feb. 1999.  Then they didn't have to worry
> about Y2K on VM, since we were on R5 of VM.
>
> I remember hearing that there weren't a lot of 3032's made.  A lot
> more 3033s and 3031s.  If I remember right, the 3032 was about the
> same speed as a 370/168.
>
> --
> Eric Bielefeld
> Systems Programmer

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011p.html#106 SPF in 1978

recent (long-winded) discussion of 3031, 3032, & 3033 (in linkedin IBM
Historic Computing group):
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011p.html#82 Migration off mainframe

3032 was 370/168-3 with different covers and using external 303x channel
director (instead of external 28x0 channels). 303x channel director was
370/158 engine w/o 370 microcode and just the integrated channel
microcode (3031 was a pair of 370/158 engines ... one with just the 370
microcode and the other with just the integrated channel microcode).

... and 3033 was 370/168-3 logic mapped to 20% faster chips ... the
chips also had ten times the circuits/chip as used in 168 ... initially
unused ... some late optimization, limited use of more circuits/chip got
3033 up to 1.5 times 168-3.

also discussed in this URL
http://www.jfsowa.com/computer/memo125.htm

3031s were being "beat" by 4341s ... past post with early benchmark
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#0

... faster, cheaper, less floor space, less power, less cooling,
etc. some old email mentioning 4341
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/lhwemail.html#4341

and 4341 clusters were beating 3033, aggregate faster, cheaper, less
floor space, less power, less cooling, etc.

at one point, POK executive, in some internal politics, got allocation
of critical 4341 manufacturing component cut in half.

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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Re: SPF in 1978

[Eric Bielefeld]

You're career sounds frighteningly like mine.  I started as a systems 
programmer in 1978 at Milwaukee County, where I worked before as an operator 
and then an applications programmer.  We had a 3032 also, but I thought it came 
in around 1975 or so.  I may be wrong.  

I remember our conversion from VS1 to MVS 3.7, which was in 1978 and early 79.  
I think we used a Panvalet product for the editor in VS1.  I liked SPF on MVS 
3.7 a lot better.  

I also did VM.  I can't remember when I started doing VM, but I know it was 
finally retired in Feb. 1999.  Then they didn't have to worry about Y2K on VM, 
since we were on R5 of VM.

I remember hearing that there weren't a lot of  3032's made.  A lot more 3033s 
and 3031s.  If I remember right, the 3032 was about the same speed as a 
370/168.   

--
Eric Bielefeld
Systems Programmer


 Jim Marshall  wrote: 
> In 1978 I had the honor to have the first IBM 3032 shipped (#06) into the 
> Pentagon when I worked at the Air Force Data Services Center.  I already had 
> in place an IBM 360-75J which ran TSO.  With the IBM 3032 came IPO 1.0 and we 
> also receive the full-screen product called "IBM 3270 Display and Structure 
> Prgramming Facility" or as people called it SPF.  
> 
> Later in the early 1980s it morphed into ISPF and a few years later it split 
> into ISPF and PDF.  PDF came with all the facilities to write ISPF 
> applications.  It was for those who did not want to buy the precoded ISPF 
> dialogs.  Then in the middle 1980s I also worked on VM and their was an ISPF 
> and PDF for VM.  The notion was you'd learn ISPF and it would be almost the 
> same in both world.  Except the diehard VM'ers loved CMS.   
> 
> Later in the early 1990s I recall ISPF and PDF merged back into ISPF; except 
> over in VM where it remains today.  If you look at VM's DIRMAINT software it 
> will have a pre-requisite of these products but indeed only if you want to 
> use their precoded ISPF application.   Save your money.   
> 
> Very interesting times.   Jim Marshall, Capt, USAF-Ret 
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: SPF in 1978

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

jim.marsh...@opm.gov (Jim Marshall) writes:

> In 1978 I had the honor to have the first IBM 3032 shipped (#06)
> into the Pentagon when I worked at the Air Force Data Services Center.
> I already had in place an IBM 360-75J which ran TSO.  With the IBM
> 3032 came IPO 1.0 and we also receive the full-screen product called
> "IBM 3270 Display and Structure Prgramming Facility" or as people
> called it SPF.
>
> Later in the early 1980s it morphed into ISPF and a few years later it
> split into ISPF and PDF.  PDF came with all the facilities to write
> ISPF applications.  It was for those who did not want to buy the
> precoded ISPF dialogs.  Then in the middle 1980s I also worked on VM
> and their was an ISPF and PDF for VM.  The notion was you'd learn ISPF
> and it would be almost the same in both world.  Except the diehard
> VM'ers loved CMS.
>
> Later in the early 1990s I recall ISPF and PDF merged back into ISPF;
> except over in VM where it remains today.  If you look at VM's
> DIRMAINT software it will have a pre-requisite of these products but
> indeed only if you want to use their precoded ISPF application.  Save
> your money.
>
> Very interesting times.   Jim Marshall, Capt, USAF-Ret 

old email 
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#email790404
about afds coming to visit about large number of vm/4341s ...  posted in
multics newsgroup:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#12

having been a little rivalry between the 4th&5th floors; some of the
ctss people went to 5th flr and did multics and others went to the
science center on the 4th flr and did virtual machines (first cp40/cms
on specially modified 360/40 with hardware virtual memory which morphs
into cp67/cms when 360/67 became available and later morphs into vm370).
past posts about science center
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech

recent post about vm performance tools were combined in the same
organization with ISPF ...
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011m.html#42 CMS load module format

problem was company having a difficult time with the unbundling
announcement and charging for application software ... unbundling
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#unbundle

guidelines was price had to cover costs, this was somethings interpreted
as organization costs had to be covered by software revenue. there were
a number of traditional software products that were combined with
various vm370 products ... where the aggregate revenue covered aggregate
costs (in the ISPF case, ISPF and vm370 performance products both had
approx. the same revenue; ISPF had a couple hundred people while vm370
performance products was held to 3 people and limited new development
... aka nearly all revenue going to fund ISPF).

unrelated 

Date: 9 August 1984, 13:35:48 EDT
From: xx
To: wheeler
 
Recently I saw on an APL disk in San Jose an announcement of something
called VMSHARE.  It appears to be a repository of information for VM
users both in and out of IBM.  I would greatly appreciate it if you
could send be any information you might have about it, such as how I
may get access to such information,  and how I might make contributions
to it.  I am a general user on a small VM system, I do have my own
copies of the IBMVM conferencing EXECs (if that is of any help) and I
am very interested in the opinions of users outside IBM as well as
developments in VM usage in general.
 
 
   Thank you very much for your assistance,
 
   xx
 
   ISPF/PDF Development
... snip ...

tymshare provided online vm370 commerical online service ... in aug 1976
there started making their vm370/cms-based computer conferening
available free to SHARE as vmshare ... archived here
http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/

I then managed to get corporate approval to "shadow" vmshare ... making
it available inside the company (had to jump through hoops with lawyers
whether external vmshare information would contaminate corporate
employees). misc. old email mentioning vmshare
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/lhwemail.html#vmshare

I had also been blamed for online computer conferencing on the
internal network ... some past posts about internal network
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internalnet

folklore is that when the executive committee was informed of computer
conferencing (and the internal network), 5of6 wanted to fire me. misc.
past posts mentioning computer mediated converstation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#cmc

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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SPF in 1978

[Jim Marshall]

In 1978 I had the honor to have the first IBM 3032 shipped (#06) into the 
Pentagon when I worked at the Air Force Data Services Center.  I already had in 
place an IBM 360-75J which ran TSO.  With the IBM 3032 came IPO 1.0 and we also 
receive the full-screen product called "IBM 3270 Display and Structure 
Prgramming Facility" or as people called it SPF.  

Later in the early 1980s it morphed into ISPF and a few years later it split 
into ISPF and PDF.  PDF came with all the facilities to write ISPF 
applications.  It was for those who did not want to buy the precoded ISPF 
dialogs.  Then in the middle 1980s I also worked on VM and their was an ISPF 
and PDF for VM.  The notion was you'd learn ISPF and it would be almost the 
same in both world.  Except the diehard VM'ers loved CMS.   

Later in the early 1990s I recall ISPF and PDF merged back into ISPF; except 
over in VM where it remains today.  If you look at VM's DIRMAINT software it 
will have a pre-requisite of these products but indeed only if you want to use 
their precoded ISPF application.   Save your money.   

Very interesting times.   Jim Marshall, Capt, USAF-Ret 

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