subject:"Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF\?"

In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on
11/29/2007
   at 08:21 AM, McKown, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

ISPF uses the basic TSO
facilities for terminal I/O (TPUT/TGET/TPG?). 

Those facilities don't require you to wait for user input. You may need to
use macros beyond the one's you listed.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html 
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 11/29/2007
   at 06:52 AM, Walt Farrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

If you're really wondering why it's not better integrated, you should ask
on MVS-OE, instead, 

Were IBM to implement an ISPF panel for running Unix commands, would it be
owned by ISPF or by OMVS? The former seems more likely.

It wouldn't hurt to post the question on ISPF-L, but my guess is that
IBM-MAIN is the most productive place for the question.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html 
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 11/29/2007
   at 09:56 AM, Paul Gilmartin [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

This is a pervasive deficiency of TSO,

Don't confuse TSO with ISPF; the required facilities are there but ISPF
doesn't exploit them.

And I'll repeat my wish for background initiated foreground.  x3270 is
open source; it could be recast to operate as an agent so an x3270
invoked on the mainframe might open an X11 window on the desktop.

You don't need x3270, or any other TN3270 client, just some enhancements
to the WAS support. The code has been there for a long time to allow a
batch ISPF job to connect to WSA.

The hard part is getting TSO to talk to sockets instead of to VTAM.

Why do you believe that sockets are relevant to your proposal? A TN3270
server communicates via SNA, so no TSO change is necessary in order to use
x3270.


In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 11/29/2007
   at 06:09 PM, Paul Gilmartin [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

Anyone who believe that's a fundamental limitation of 3270
hardware that can't be worked around:

o Has never used VM/CMS

o Has been brainwashed by TSO

ROTF,LMAO! That hasn't been a limitation of TSO for decades. It's a
limitation if ISPF, and I'd be very surprised if the CMS version of ISPF
didn't have the same limitation.

I'd be delighted to see an alternative implementation of OMVS that
bypasses TSO (or is VTAM the culprit?) and passes 327x data streams more
directly to the terminal.

I doubt it. If it's done by the same people with the same design it will
have the same limitations, and you'll be unhappy. If it's done by someone
that understands TSO and with an interface requirement to eliminate the
wait, then it will be done that way.


In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 11/29/2007
   at 06:22 PM, Paul Gilmartin [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

Suppose in each of those (or in concurrent processes from a single
TTY session) I could invoke a Rexx EXEC which says
ADDRESS TSO ISPGUI, or ADDRESS TSO WSA displaying a 3270 terminal
emulator on my desktop. 

Then there would have to be a complete redesign of ISPGUI, because the WSA
support does not use a 3270 simulator. In fact, the whole point of a WSA
session is that it is not a 3270 session.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html 
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on
11/29/2007
   at 10:09 PM, Lindy Mayfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

Then I was thinking, well it's just the nature of 3270

No, just the nature of ISPF.

But I have no idea where the ¢ key is

Consult the documentation for your 3270 simulator, or use something other
than ¢.

-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html 
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-12-04 Thread Hunkeler Peter (KIUK 3)

Of what value are such progress bars other than proving useless
animation can also be provided in TSO sessions? Those development
resources would better be working on real enhancements.

-- 
Peter Hunkeler
CREDIT SUISSE

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-12-04 Thread Don Leahy

On Dec 4, 2007 3:03 AM, Hunkeler Peter (KIUK 3) 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Of what value are such progress bars other than proving useless
 animation can also be provided in TSO sessions? Those development
 resources would better be working on real enhancements.

 --
 Peter Hunkeler
 CREDIT SUISSE

 I agree that progress bars are just a technical stunt.

The only time I ever put one to practical use was to demonstrate to my
sysprog how poor the TSO response time was on the Development system vs
Production.   I had him run the progress bar function on both systems and
the difference was alarming enough to cause him to launch an investigation.

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-12-02 Thread Chase, John

 -Original Message-
 [ snip ]
 
 
 On Nov 30, 2007 3:15 PM, Lindy Mayfield wrote:
 
  I was just amazed when I was in 3.4 and I had a list of all my 
  datasets based on the first HLQ of my userid and hit PF11.  We've 
  recently installed z/OS 1.9.
 
  Admittedly I'm easily amused, but I'd give this a coolness factor of
  3.01296 out of PI.
 
  (If you don't have 1.9 yet, a window pops up with a progress bar
that 
  moves from 0 - 100 percent.)

With what effect on VWLC charges?

-jc-

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-12-02 Thread Paul Gilmartin

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:15:35 +0100, Lindy Mayfield wrote:

I was just amazed when I was in 3.4 and I had a list of all my datasets
based on the first HLQ of my userid and hit PF11.  We've recently
installed z/OS 1.9.

Admittedly I'm easily amused, but I'd give this a coolness factor of
3.01296 out of PI.

(If you don't have 1.9 yet, a window pops up with a progress bar that
moves from 0 - 100 percent.)

What's cooler is that it's innterruptible with ATTN.  What's less
cool than it might be is that ATTN returns me to the primary ISPF
panel.

But trying to set up for the demonstration, I first picked a wildcard
HLQ far too big.  When I tired of waiting for the list to display, I
pressed ATTN.  Several times.  Vertical bar each time.  Finally, I
disconnected my terminal and logged in again.

TSO/ISPF's terminal interaction still sucks; anything inconveniently
long should be gently interruptible.

Likewise, a recurrent irritation is searching a large data set for
a string, and having the search pause every 100,000 lines to ask
me whether I want to continue.  Better to show a progress bar and
allow interruption by ATTN.  But that ATTN should not return me to
the primary panel.

And why, why, why is the argument for UP and DOWN still limited to
9,999 lines?  What rationale is there for making it any less than
the size of the file?  (Or at least the remaining distance in the
chosen scrolling direction.)  (Halfword psychosis is not a rationale,
nor is a value motivated by the weight of a double armload of
punched cards.)

-- gil

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-12-01 Thread Don Leahy

Progress bars are cool, but nothing new.  They have been easy to code since
the CONTROL DISPLAY LOCK service was added to ISPF, back before the turn of
the century.  Only takes a few lines of code.

That IBM would add something so flashy to ISPF *is* a surprise though.


On Nov 30, 2007 3:15 PM, Lindy Mayfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I was just amazed when I was in 3.4 and I had a list of all my datasets
 based on the first HLQ of my userid and hit PF11.  We've recently
 installed z/OS 1.9.

 Admittedly I'm easily amused, but I'd give this a coolness factor of
 3.01296 out of PI.

 (If you don't have 1.9 yet, a window pops up with a progress bar that
 moves from 0 - 100 percent.)


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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-11-30 Thread Hunkeler Peter (KIUK 3)

I usually run the TSO OMVS shell with auto-scrolling off.   You 
can set that at invocation (HELP OMVS for details) or use PF2 
(subcommand) and type NOAUTO.  Then if you ran into the same 
situation you could use PF2 and QUIT.  :-)

You should be able to use PF2 (entering OMVS Subcommand mode)
even with autoscroll. BTW, you can type quit and then hit
PF2 which is even faster that hitting PF2 first.

--
Peter Hunkeler
Credit Suisse

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-11-30 Thread Lindy Mayfield

Seriously, I read that about the dog avatar while I was drinking some
juice, laughed and nearly died when the black currant mixed berry
cocktail went down the wrong pipe.

It's all fun and games until someone chokes to death.



 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Kirk Wolf
 Sent: 30. marraskuuta 2007 23:00
 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
 Subject: Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?
 
 Character-drawn window popups?  Yeah, this is some really cool UI
 technology :-)
 What next, a GDDM-rendered dog avitar that pops up with suggestions
while
 you are trying to figure out the ISMF screens?
 
 3270-ISPF development should be quiesced in favor of the likely
follow-on
 product:
 ISPF-Link  (built on the IBMLink web technology stack)
 
 All in good fun,
 Kirk Wolf
 

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-11-30 Thread Paul Gilmartin

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:16:32 -0600, McKown, John wrote:

 DISPLAY=local.desktop export DISPLAY
 oedit some.file

 ... and have a new, genuine x3270 window running ISPF/PDF pop
 up on one's desktop?  No need to enter user ID and password;

Now that sounds interesting! And I even understand it. grin But it

Ah!  It's refreshing that my thought processes sometimes mesh
with others' on this list.

would likely be difficult to implement because OEDIT is just an
interface to ISPF edit. So the z/OS UNIX version of oedit would need
to set up an ISPF environment. Which likely means a unique, non-shared,

I do this routinely from a (non-interactive) Unix shell with Rexx:

address TSO 'ISPSTART cmd( %... )'

... where I do LMINIT, LMCOPY, LMMSTATS, LMFREE, ... (but not edit).
The obstacle is in connecting to a terminal, not in setting up an
ISPF environment.

ISPF profile dataset.

In the non-interactive case, it suffices (and I prefer) simply to:

alloc dd(ISPPROF) new unit(VIO) space(1,1) tracks dir(5) delete

... (we don't need no ISPPROF).

It's ironic that ISPF which so successfully serializes edits to
PDS members can't do likewise with its own profile data set.  I
suspect the obstacle is that for performance ISPF caches profile
updates and synchs them all at exit rather than updating dynamically.

But (I've described here before) we have developer/testers who like
to be logged on to one production system and several test systems
concurrently.  Some years ago, our sysprog took the expedient step
of blocking CA/MIM's propagation of the ENQ on ISPPROF.  I have
heard of no resulting difficulties; programmers understand that
the last session to exit wins; and corruption is possible only in
a tiny timing window if the programmer types EXIT on two terminals
and presses ENTER with one hand on each terminal simultaneously.
And doesn't z/OS itself nowadays serialize PDS directory updates
to prevent corruption?  In the last resort, there are HSM backups.

I know; Shmuel has already said it's not his dog.

-- gil

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-11-30 Thread McKown, John

 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
 Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 10:05 AM
 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
 Subject: Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

snip

 And more on your perplexity about my suggestion of background
 initiated foreground: I've seen some sentiment here that a
 class of users prefer linemode for general Unix operations, but
 OEDIT/OBROWSE in their specialty areas.  Wouldn't it be at least
 convenient in a linemode z/OS Unix session to issue:

 DISPLAY=local.desktop export DISPLAY
 oedit some.file

 ... and have a new, genuine x3270 window running ISPF/PDF pop
 up on one's desktop?  No need to enter user ID and password;
 current working directory and environment inherited from the
 Unix session; and if the user has issued a su command, OEDIT
 would run with the new user ID, not that of the original TSO
 session as is the present (mis-)behavior of OEDIT under OMVS.

 -- gil

Now that sounds interesting! And I even understand it. grin But it
would likely be difficult to implement because OEDIT is just an
interface to ISPF edit. So the z/OS UNIX version of oedit would need
to set up an ISPF environment. Which likely means a unique, non-shared,
ISPF profile dataset. 

This is very interesting to think upon. Unfortunately, that is all that
I can do because my time is being taken up trying to come up with a plan
to split our current single z/OS image into two images (production vs.
non-production) while at the same time convincing everybody that the
only reasonable way to go is a parallel sysplex, which will cost real
money for the CF. Which everybody think can be done and finished in at
most a single quarter of next year.

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Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-11-30 Thread Lindy Mayfield

I was just amazed when I was in 3.4 and I had a list of all my datasets
based on the first HLQ of my userid and hit PF11.  We've recently
installed z/OS 1.9.

Admittedly I'm easily amused, but I'd give this a coolness factor of
3.01296 out of PI.  

(If you don't have 1.9 yet, a window pops up with a progress bar that
moves from 0 - 100 percent.)

 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Kirk Wolf
 Sent: 30. marraskuuta 2007 7:21
 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
 Subject: Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?
 
 It is no doubt futile to try to reign in this thread, but many of the
 responses have been very helpful to me.  Thanks.

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-11-30 Thread Paul Gilmartin

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:20:49 -0600, Kirk Wolf wrote:

It is no doubt futile to try to reign in this thread, but many of the
responses have been very helpful to me.  Thanks.

For me, key points are:

1) OMVS works in a pinch, but I'm not the only one that finds it painful.
OEDIT or OBROWSE commands get you back into an ISPF dialog so that you can
flip around with other dialogs / splits, etc.

And I assume that in that ISPF dialog you could enter TSO OMVS on
the command line.  But that creates a new OMVS session.  You can't
swap back and forth neither to the original OMVS session nor to the
dialog(s) in the split adjacent to that from which you launched it.

2) ISPF can't handle pseudo full duplex 3270 sessions (like VM/CMS,
MVS/Console, etc.), so it is not obvious that a really nice OMVS replacement
could be written as an ISPF dialog.

not obvious, or even obviously not?

3)  ISHELL can be used not only as a filesystem navigator, but also to enter
shell commands.  It is an ISPF dialog, so doesn't suffer in the same ways as
OMVS.

It suffers in some of the same ways; in some ways different, even worse.
Principally, it's basically a batch protocol; you don't see output until
the shell command completes.  You can't even tell whether it's looping,
perhaps spewing to stdout.

It might even be a better option to enter the shell command in a BPXBATCH
or BPXWUNIX batch job.  At least that way you can monitor its output with
SDSF or ISV replacements.

4) If you want a real Unix shell, your best bet is to use a (non-3270)
Telnet or SSH shell.  (Putty on Windows or  ssh on Linux are good choices)

Yes.

-- gil

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-11-30 Thread McKown, John

 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
 Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 6:09 PM
 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
 Subject: Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

snip

 It has also been mentioned a couple times in this thread that the
 z/OS operator's 327x console is free of the half-duplex constraint:
 the operator never needs to press ATTN before entering a command.

 I'd be delighted to see an alternative implementation of OMVS that
 bypasses TSO (or is VTAM the culprit?) and passes 327x data streams
 more directly to the terminal.

Can't be VTAM. Using SMCS, you can now run a true z/OS console on a VTAM
3270 LU. Works identically to a DIDOCS 3270 console. We now use them for
some Production Control people who are remote to the data center, but
need to have a console around to see messages real time. TN3270E to
VTAM to SMCS for a console. Works well with all three of our TN3270
terminal emulators (Hummingbird, BlueZone, and Rumba).

 -- gil

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-11-30 Thread Paul Gilmartin

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:43:38 -0600, McKown, John wrote:

 It has also been mentioned a couple times in this thread that the
 z/OS operator's 327x console is free of the half-duplex constraint:
 the operator never needs to press ATTN before entering a command.

 I'd be delighted to see an alternative implementation of OMVS that
 bypasses TSO (or is VTAM the culprit?) and passes 327x data streams
 more directly to the terminal.

Can't be VTAM. Using SMCS, you can now run a true z/OS console on a VTAM
3270 LU. Works identically to a DIDOCS 3270 console. We now use them for
some Production Control people who are remote to the data center, but
need to have a console around to see messages real time. TN3270E to
VTAM to SMCS for a console. Works well with all three of our TN3270
terminal emulators (Hummingbird, BlueZone, and Rumba).

As an experiment, I composed the EXEC on VM/CMS:

/* Rexx */
signal on novalue
address 'COMMAND'

do forever
say date() time()
do while externals()0
parse pull Line
say Line;  end
'PIPE literal +10 | delay';  end

... then from an ISPF session, I TSO TELNET VMCMS in 3270 mode.
It mostly works; I can type ahead for 10 seconds, and the input
typed ahead comes out in the pull...say loop.  But it stutters;
some characters are repeated; it seems that I can type characters
after I press ENTER but before the cursor is placed at the left
end of the input area.  I wonder whether TELNET plays the same
invisible polling game as OMVS?  Now I must try it from a linemode
z/OS Unix session, if only to see how externals() behaves under Unix.

About SMCS being unavailable during IPL, haven't I seen some
discussion here of a remote HMC?  Would that suffice?  Or are
there operator commands that can't be issued at the HMC?

And more on your perplexity about my suggestion of background
initiated foreground: I've seen some sentiment here that a
class of users prefer linemode for general Unix operations, but
OEDIT/OBROWSE in their specialty areas.  Wouldn't it be at least
convenient in a linemode z/OS Unix session to issue:

DISPLAY=local.desktop export DISPLAY
oedit some.file

... and have a new, genuine x3270 window running ISPF/PDF pop
up on one's desktop?  No need to enter user ID and password;
current working directory and environment inherited from the
Unix session; and if the user has issued a su command, OEDIT
would run with the new user ID, not that of the original TSO
session as is the present (mis-)behavior of OEDIT under OMVS.

-- gil

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-11-30 Thread Kirk Wolf

Character-drawn window popups?  Yeah, this is some really cool UI
technology :-)
What next, a GDDM-rendered dog avitar that pops up with suggestions while
you are trying to figure out the ISMF screens?

3270-ISPF development should be quiesced in favor of the likely follow-on
product:
ISPF-Link  (built on the IBMLink web technology stack)

All in good fun,
Kirk Wolf

On Nov 30, 2007 2:15 PM, Lindy Mayfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I was just amazed when I was in 3.4 and I had a list of all my datasets
 based on the first HLQ of my userid and hit PF11.  We've recently
 installed z/OS 1.9.

 Admittedly I'm easily amused, but I'd give this a coolness factor of
 3.01296 out of PI.

 (If you don't have 1.9 yet, a window pops up with a progress bar that
 moves from 0 - 100 percent.)

  -Original Message-
  From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL 
  PROTECTED]IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU]
 On
  Behalf Of Kirk Wolf
  Sent: 30. marraskuuta 2007 7:21
  To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
  Subject: Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?
 
  It is no doubt futile to try to reign in this thread, but many of the
  responses have been very helpful to me.  Thanks.

 --
 For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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 Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html


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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-11-29 Thread R.S.


Roger Lowe wrote:
[...]

I thought there were some enhancements to ISPF in z/OS 1.9 that allowed
Edit/Browse of z/OS Unix files. I haven't quite got a z/OS 1.9 system up yet
to confirm or it could be that my memory is failing me !


AFAIK it is available for some time, maybe in 1.9 it is enhanced somehow

Regarding to Kirk's question: I miss it (the functionality) too. I don't 
know any reasonable workaround, sometimes I simply use two sessions: two 
3270 emulator windows, two userids... better than nothing...


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Lodz, Poland


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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-11-29 Thread Hunkeler Peter (KIUK 3)

I normally use an ssh or (non-3270) telent session to get a real 
Unix shell on z/OS, but sometimes it is necessary or convenient to 
use the TSO OMVS command.

Out of curiosity and to better understand your requirement, can you
give some examples of where it is necessary of convenient? I just hardly
ever use TSO OMVS if I have telnet/ssh available. I do the TSO/ISPF
stuff in the 3270 TSO session and the unix stuff in one or more
telnet/ssh sesions.

I thought it might be nice to write an OMVS replacement as an ISPF 
dialog, but it is not obvious to me that it is very easy to do...

Remember, TSO OMVS starts a UNIX shell (such as /bin/sh) in the
background and then acts kind of like a mediator between the
half-duplex 3270 forground TSO session and the full duplex
UNIX background session. One of the things it has to do is cache 
all STDOUT and STDERR output from the UNIX session, translate it
to 3270 data stream and display it in chunks.


This it not meant to justify the current implementation. I just 
wanted to support your impression it would not be easy to do.
It will have its rough edges whatever you try, I think. As said,
I just don't have a need for it.

--
Peter Hunkeler
Credit Suisse

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-11-29 Thread Chicklon, Tom

Just started testing with my 1.9 system, and yes, there is more
integration in ISPF to access zFS and HFS files.

For example, from ISPF Opt 2, you can now enter a UNIX file name:

ISPF Library:

  Project . . . TE23

  Group . . . . TEST . . .  . . .  . . .

  Type  . . . . JCL

  Member  . . . (Blank or pattern for member selection
list)
 

Other Partitioned, Sequential or VSAM Data Set, or z/OS UNIX file:

  Name . . . . . /u/TE23/Test
+
  Volume Serial(If not cataloged)


Tom Chicklon

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roger Lowe
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 8:22 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:50:21 -0600, Kirk Wolf
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

...
I thought it might be nice to write an OMVS replacement as an ISPF
dialog,
but it is not obvious to me that it is very easy to do...

What you would like is a multithreaded (multiple TCBs under z/OS)
ISPF
application - one thread handles normal input processing, and the
other
updates a temporary scrollable table with the output as it arrives.
I
could be wrong, but ISPF seems to be limited to a single thread and to
half-duplex 3270 conversations.   I could work around the single-
thread
problem, but there doesn't seem to be a way in ISPF to support a
full-duplex 3270 conversations.
...
I thought there were some enhancements to ISPF in z/OS 1.9 that allowed
Edit/Browse of z/OS Unix files. I haven't quite got a z/OS 1.9 system up
yet
to confirm or it could be that my memory is failing me !

Roger

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-11-29 Thread Walt Farrell

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:50:21 -0600, Kirk Wolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I normally use an ssh or (non-3270) telent session to get a real Unix
shell on z/OS, but sometimes it is necessary or convenient to the the TSO
OMVS command.  It has always bothered me as to why this thing wasn't an 
 ISPF dialog so that you could split the screen, etc.  Doesn't this bother
anyone
else or am I missing an obvious work-around?


If you're really wondering why it's not better integrated, you should ask on
MVS-OE, instead,  as the z/OS UNIX developers do not (as far as I know) hang
out on IBM-MAIN.

-- 
  Walt

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-11-29 Thread Kirk Wolf

Agreed - MVS-OE is a better place to discuss OMVS per se,
but I'm really more interested in understanding whether ISPF dialogs can
support pseudo-full-duplex 3270 processing - something like the MVS console.

Kirk Wolf
Dovetailed Technologies

On Nov 29, 2007 6:52 AM, Walt Farrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:50:21 -0600, Kirk Wolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I normally use an ssh or (non-3270) telent session to get a real Unix
 shell on z/OS, but sometimes it is necessary or convenient to the the TSO
 OMVS command.  It has always bothered me as to why this thing wasn't an
  ISPF dialog so that you could split the screen, etc.  Doesn't this
 bother
 anyone
 else or am I missing an obvious work-around?
 

 If you're really wondering why it's not better integrated, you should ask
 on
 MVS-OE, instead,  as the z/OS UNIX developers do not (as far as I know)
 hang
 out on IBM-MAIN.

 --
  Walt



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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-11-29 Thread Steve Comstock


Chicklon, Tom wrote:

Just started testing with my 1.9 system, and yes, there is more
integration in ISPF to access zFS and HFS files.

For example, from ISPF Opt 2, you can now enter a UNIX file name:

ISPF Library:

  Project . . . TE23

  Group . . . . TEST . . .  . . .  . . .

  Type  . . . . JCL

  Member  . . . (Blank or pattern for member selection
list)
 


Other Partitioned, Sequential or VSAM Data Set, or z/OS UNIX file:

  Name . . . . . /u/TE23/Test
+
  Volume Serial(If not cataloged)


Tom Chicklon


From my earlier (10/23/2007) post with subject
z/OS 1.9 Features summary ...

_TSO, CLIST, REXX, ISPF/Dialog Manager:_

* ISPF: scrollable fields; introduced in 1.5,
  enhanced in 1.8 (ZCLRSFLD command), more
  widely used in 1.9
  [discussed in ISPF Update; details covered
   in Developing Dialog Manager Applications
   in z/OS]


* ISPF Edit and View: SOURCE command allows you to
  edit and view data in ASCII; LF command lets you
  set x'0A's to EBCDIC new lines
  [discussed in Advanced ISPF in z/OS]


* Many ISPF data set name entry fields now
  support z/OS HFS UNIX files

  * Edit and View entry panel
  * Edit / View CREATE / REPLACE / COPY / MOVE
  [discussed in TSO/ISPF in z/OS, ISPF Update,
   and in ISPF and JCL on z/OS]


* HFS file names and path names can be kept in
  personal reference lists)
  [discussed in TSO/ISPF in z/OS, ISPF Update,
   and in ISPF and JCL on z/OS]


* The UNIX Directory List Utility (3.17) now uses edit
  and browse instead of oedit and obrowse; there is
  also a view option now.
  [discussed in ISPF Update and Introduction to
  z/OS UNIX]


* Dialog Manager BROWSE, EDIT, and VIEW services now
  support z/OS UNIX files
  [discussed in Developing Dialog Manager Applications
   in z/OS]


Kind regards,

-Steve Comstock
The Trainer's Friend, Inc.

303-393-8716
http://www.trainersfriend.com

  z/OS Application development made easier
* Our classes include
   + How things work
   + Programming examples with realistic applications
   + Starter / skeleton code
   + Complete working programs
   + Useful utilities and subroutines
   + Tips and techniques

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-11-29 Thread Mark Zelden

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:13:25 +0100, R.S. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Roger Lowe wrote:
[...]
 I thought there were some enhancements to ISPF in z/OS 1.9 that allowed
 Edit/Browse of z/OS Unix files. I haven't quite got a z/OS 1.9 system up yet
 to confirm or it could be that my memory is failing me !

AFAIK it is available for some time, maybe in 1.9 it is enhanced somehow

It is. z/OS 1.8 added 3.17 (UDLIST).  In 1.9 all panels can access unix
files / directories and there is some help for ascii translation.


Regarding to Kirk's question: I miss it (the functionality) too. I don't
know any reasonable workaround, sometimes I simply use two sessions: two
3270 emulator windows, two userids... better than nothing...



Why 2 3270 sessions?  When I want 3270 I use ISHELL (or one of the ISPF
extentions), if I want a unix shell I telnet into z/OS UNIX.   Any decent
telnet 
client (not the win-doze one) will allow you to scroll back and forth and you
can use editors like VI and EMACS from a telnet session.  The setup to telnet
directly into z/OS UNIX is very simple.  Ocassionally I use TSO OMVS if I
only need a shell for a short period of time.

Mark
--
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Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead
Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/
Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kirk Wolf
 Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 4:50 PM
 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
 Subject: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

 I normally use an ssh or (non-3270) telent session to get a 
 real Unix
 shell on z/OS, but sometimes it is necessary or convenient to 
 the the TSO
 OMVS command.  It has always bothered me as to why this thing 
 wasn't an ISPF
 dialog so that you could split the screen, etc.  Doesn't this 
 bother anyone
 else or am I missing an obvious work-around?

 I thought it might be nice to write an OMVS replacement as an 
 ISPF dialog,
 but it is not obvious to me that it is very easy to do...

 What you would like is a multithreaded (multiple TCBs under z/OS) ISPF
 application - one thread handles normal input processing, and 
 the other
 updates a temporary scrollable table with the output as it 
 arrives.   I
 could be wrong, but ISPF seems to be limited to a single thread and to
 half-duplex 3270 conversations.   I could work around the 
 single-thread
 problem, but there doesn't seem to be a way in ISPF to support a
 full-duplex 3270 conversations.

 Comments appreciated,

 Kirk Wolf
 Dovetailed Technologies LLC

From what IBM has said, the problem is that the UNIX terminal I/O is
basically asynchronous or maybe it was full duplex. 3270 in TSO is not
full duplex, by design (or misdesign). ISPF uses the basic TSO
facilities for terminal I/O (TPUT/TGET/TPG?). The OMVS interface, from
what I was told, works by waiting some period of time for output from
the UNIX command. During this time, any output from the UNIX command is
sent to the TSO session and displayed. When the timer pops, the OMVS
command in TSO hangs a read command (TGET?) to the terminal. During
this time, the UNIX command's output cannot be displayed (it is being
buffered). That's why you need to press the PF10 (refresh) key
periodically. This takes the OMVS interface out of input mode,
displays any queued output, and sets the timer again.

I only use the TSO OMVS interface when I need to do a set of short
commands.

I use ISHELL, at times, to run some UNIX commands.

I use OSHELL at other times to run some UNIX commands.

I use option 3.17 (z/OS 1.8) to edit UNIX files.

I use telnet/ssh when I plan to do a lot of UNIX work (Hummingbird
emulator on Windows or the bundled telnet/ssh on my Linux desktop).

In some cases, I use vim on my Linux desktop to edit files on Linux.
This is in a directory on the Linux system which is exported via NFS to
the z/OS sytem (chmod 1777 on Linux). The z/OS NFS client mounts the
directory with XLAT(Y) to do automatic ASCII-EBCDIC translation. I
then use a z/OS UNIX command such as OSHELL cp /nfs/mounted/file
/zos/file to copy the Linux resident file onto a z/OS filesystem.
Unfortunately, NFS is a bit of a CPU hog, so I don't do this often.

In a truly weird scenario. I've been known to copy the file from z/OS to
the Linux desktop (via NFS), vim edit it to do some regular expression
changes, copy the file back from Linux to z/OS (via NFS), then use 3.17
to finish up my editing. I really despise the z/OS UNIX version of vi.
I also don't much care for the UNIX shell on z/OS compared to bash on
Linux. But that last may just be that I'm not used to it.

--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:50:21 -0600, Kirk Wolf wrote:

I normally use an ssh or (non-3270) telent session to get a real Unix
shell on z/OS, but sometimes it is necessary or convenient to the the TSO
OMVS command.  It has always bothered me as to why this thing wasn't an ISPF
dialog so that you could split the screen, etc.  Doesn't this bother anyone
else or am I missing an obvious work-around?

This is a pervasive deficiency of TSO, far antedating z/OS Unix.  For
example, in the ISPF TSO Command Shell (Option 6), when I issue a
command that does linemode I/O, why doesn't it the linemode output
stay in its split, and let me alternate with editing in the other?

This sort of inversion of the desirable layering of functions is far
too typical of IBM design.

I suspect it has much to do with the two branch technique TSO uses to
preserve the integrity of authorized commands.

I thought it might be nice to write an OMVS replacement as an ISPF dialog,
but it is not obvious to me that it is very easy to do...

What you would like is a multithreaded (multiple TCBs under z/OS) ISPF
application - one thread handles normal input processing, and the other
updates a temporary scrollable table with the output as it arrives.   I
could be wrong, but ISPF seems to be limited to a single thread and to
half-duplex 3270 conversations.   I could work around the single-thread
problem, but there doesn't seem to be a way in ISPF to support a
full-duplex 3270 conversations.

I would hold more hope for making z/OS Unix the executive, and starting
multiple ISPGUI or WSA processes in separate process spaces.

And I'll repeat my wish for background initiated foreground.  x3270
is open source; it could be recast to operate as an agent so an x3270
invoked on the mainframe might open an X11 window on the desktop.
As many concurrent sessions as one wishes, even on a single host.
The hard part is getting TSO to talk to sockets instead of to VTAM.

-- gil

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
 Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 9:56 AM
 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
 Subject: Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

snip

 And I'll repeat my wish for background initiated foreground.  x3270
 is open source; it could be recast to operate as an agent so an x3270
 invoked on the mainframe might open an X11 window on the desktop.
 As many concurrent sessions as one wishes, even on a single host.

Actually, this should be rather simple. Set up a UNIX environment. Set
the DISPLAY environment variable to have the IP or host name of the
desktop. Set your X server on the desktop to allow connections from the
z/OS system (xhost). Invoke x3270.

How is this superior to doing a x3270 on my desktop? I am not
understanding the reason to run x3270 on z/OS instead of the desktop. 

If you mean do this x3270 stuff from your TSO session, then the
complication would be the switching from one x3270 session to another.
And, from what little I understand, TSO is not really set up to be
multitasking. That is why ISPF does not really integrate TSO commands
from option 6 into its environment. I think that to do this, something
would need to trap the TPUT/TGET/TPG calls (subsystem SVC screening?)
and implement a sort of set of virtual 3270 terminals which can be
switched between. But x3270 isn't needed to do this, at least I can
think of why it would be. Oh, just so everybody knows (as if they didn't
already), I'm really getting out of my depth in this.

 The hard part is getting TSO to talk to sockets instead of to VTAM.

I know that BMC has some code which allows their TSO/ISPF Mainview
interfaces to be used in a started task (similar to TSO in that one logs
onto the STC, but the STC starts another STC and does a CLDST PASS to
pass control of the LU to the new STC). I wonder if they might be
interested in looking at how difficult it would be to change their
emulation code to talk to sockets instead of VTAM. However, this is
deprecated in favor of using a web browser to interface to their new
STC.

 -- gil

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-11-29 Thread Mark Post

 On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at  9:21 AM, in message
[EMAIL PROTECTED], McKown,
John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
-snip-
 I also don't much care for the UNIX shell on z/OS compared to bash on
 Linux. But that last may just be that I'm not used to it.

The shell on USS is the same as on AIX.  I never had the time to learn it 
properly, so the conflicting command options between it and bash always drove 
me nuts as well.  I got around it by compiling bash and using that.  (Or I used 
a version of bash from the ported tools page.  My memory is failing me there.)  
That was much more comfortable.


Mark Post

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-11-29 Thread Steve Comstock


Mark Post wrote:

On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at  9:21 AM, in message


[EMAIL PROTECTED], McKown,
John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
-snip-



I also don't much care for the UNIX shell on z/OS compared to bash on
Linux. But that last may just be that I'm not used to it.



The shell on USS is the same as on AIX.  I never had the time 
to learn it properly, so the conflicting command options 
between it and bash always drove me nuts as well.  I got 
around it by compiling bash and using that.  (Or I used a 
version of bash from the ported tools page.  My memory is 
failing me there.)  That was much more comfortable.


Clearly a matter of what you grew up with. For 25+ years I
worked on mainframes and UNIX was always the enemy. For the
last 8 years I have been learning, and developing training
courses about, z/OS UNIX. Not having any previous experience
with UNIX has actually been, to my mind, a benefit. I'm having
fun with it and don't miss things I've never seen.

I especially appreciate the omvs facility and recent ISPF
enhancements that others seem to despise. For long time
mainframe developers, this is a very comfortable environment
and you never have to say vi. :-)


Kind regards,

-Steve Comstock
The Trainer's Friend, Inc.

303-393-8716
http://www.trainersfriend.com

  z/OS Application development made easier
* Our classes include
   + How things work
   + Programming examples with realistic applications
   + Starter / skeleton code
   + Complete working programs
   + Useful utilities and subroutines
   + Tips and techniques

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Comstock
 Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 11:25 AM
 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
 Subject: Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

 Mark Post wrote:
 On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at  9:21 AM, in message

 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 om, McKown,
  John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
  -snip-

 I also don't much care for the UNIX shell on z/OS compared 
 to bash on
 Linux. But that last may just be that I'm not used to it.

  The shell on USS is the same as on AIX.  I never had the time 
  to learn it properly, so the conflicting command options 
  between it and bash always drove me nuts as well.  I got 
  around it by compiling bash and using that.  (Or I used a 
  version of bash from the ported tools page.  My memory is 
  failing me there.)  That was much more comfortable.

 Clearly a matter of what you grew up with. For 25+ years I
 worked on mainframes and UNIX was always the enemy. For the
 last 8 years I have been learning, and developing training
 courses about, z/OS UNIX. Not having any previous experience
 with UNIX has actually been, to my mind, a benefit. I'm having
 fun with it and don't miss things I've never seen.

I generally like the new stuff in ISPF (z/OS 1.8) for doing UNIX work.
But I despise TSO OMVS.

 I especially appreciate the omvs facility and recent ISPF
 enhancements that others seem to despise. For long time
 mainframe developers, this is a very comfortable environment
 and you never have to say vi. :-)

war type=editor subtype=religious intensity=flame
If IBM ever puts regular expressions in PDF edit/OEDIT, vi will become
just a bad dream.
/war

 Kind regards,

 -Steve Comstock

--
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Senior Systems Programmer
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Administrative Services Group
Information Technology

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-11-29 Thread Lindy Mayfield

Hi Kirk,

I've created a Rexx / ISPF application panel that scrolls dynamically on
its own before, just for fun mostly to see if I could do it.  I'm sure
there are other ways to do it, but for mine (as I recall) I did
something like this:

TBADD MYRECORD
TBTOP MYRECORD
some check on the size
  TBTOP MYRECORD
  TBSKIP MYRECORD NUMBER(n)
CONTROL DISPLAY LOCK
TBDISPL MYRECORD PANEL(MYPANEL)

This was ok for me because I was using tables to simplify things, but
for what you are talking about it would be better to use a dynamic area.
The trick was the CONTROL DISPLAY LOCK command.

Regards,
Lindy 

P.S. If you are interested in seeing it, I can try to gut the essence of
it and put together a simple demo Rexx exec that automatically scrolls.
Or I can send you the original.  It was just a simple thing that looked
at TCP/IP resolver parameters, back in OS/390 days.

 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Kirk Wolf
 Sent: 29. marraskuuta 2007 15:32
 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
 Subject: Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?
 
 Agreed - MVS-OE is a better place to discuss OMVS per se,
 but I'm really more interested in understanding whether ISPF dialogs
can
 support pseudo-full-duplex 3270 processing - something like the MVS
 console.
 
 Kirk Wolf
 Dovetailed Technologies

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-11-29 Thread Kirk Wolf

Lindy,

Can it accept input from a command area while do this?
In other words, rows would be added to the table as they arrived from the
shell stdout, but input would be accepted as well.

It would seem to me that CONTROL DISPLAY LOCK would cause the table
display to be updated, but leave the keyboard locked for input, but I don't
really understand ISPF that well any more.

Kirk

On Nov 29, 2007 2:19 PM, Lindy Mayfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hi Kirk,

 I've created a Rexx / ISPF application panel that scrolls dynamically on
 its own before, just for fun mostly to see if I could do it.  I'm sure
 there are other ways to do it, but for mine (as I recall) I did
 something like this:

 TBADD MYRECORD
 TBTOP MYRECORD
 some check on the size
  TBTOP MYRECORD
  TBSKIP MYRECORD NUMBER(n)
 CONTROL DISPLAY LOCK
 TBDISPL MYRECORD PANEL(MYPANEL)

 This was ok for me because I was using tables to simplify things, but
 for what you are talking about it would be better to use a dynamic area.
 The trick was the CONTROL DISPLAY LOCK command.

 Regards,
 Lindy

 P.S. If you are interested in seeing it, I can try to gut the essence of
 it and put together a simple demo Rexx exec that automatically scrolls.
 Or I can send you the original.  It was just a simple thing that looked
 at TCP/IP resolver parameters, back in OS/390 days.

  -Original Message-
  From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Kirk Wolf
  Sent: 29. marraskuuta 2007 15:32
  To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
  Subject: Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?
 
  Agreed - MVS-OE is a better place to discuss OMVS per se,
  but I'm really more interested in understanding whether ISPF dialogs
 can
  support pseudo-full-duplex 3270 processing - something like the MVS
  console.
 
  Kirk Wolf
  Dovetailed Technologies

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-11-29 Thread Lindy Mayfield

Kirk,

That's an excellent point.  I was actually thinking about that just after I 
answered -- how one might check for some sort of input to pause, stop or cancel 
things.  I think it could probably be done somehow though. Still it would be a 
kludge and probably awkward. 

Then I was thinking, well it's just the nature of 3270 and that for a Unix 
shell TCP/IP clients like telnet, rlogin, and ssh are superior.  On the other 
hand, just for the sake of discussion, we've taken a step backwards with one of 
our newest technologies, http and web pages.  Their behavior is almost 
identical to a 3270 application and you have to jump through some hoops and 
fake things to get a scrolling output.

Funny, I was just looking again at OMVS which I rarely use unless I have to 
cause I hate it.  I did an ls -la /tmp/ without realizing that there were a few 
thousand files there. It has been scrolling away for almost 10 minutes now. (-: 
It says at the bottom left:

ESC=¢

But I have no idea where the ¢ key is nor how to stop it.  (-:

Lindy


 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Kirk Wolf
 Sent: 29. marraskuuta 2007 22:37
 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
 Subject: Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?
 
 Lindy,
 
 Can it accept input from a command area while do this?
 In other words, rows would be added to the table as they arrived from the
 shell stdout, but input would be accepted as well.
 
 It would seem to me that CONTROL DISPLAY LOCK would cause the table
 display to be updated, but leave the keyboard locked for input, but I
 don't
 really understand ISPF that well any more.
 
 Kirk
 
 On Nov 29, 2007 2:19 PM, Lindy Mayfield [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
  Hi Kirk,
 
  I've created a Rexx / ISPF application panel that scrolls dynamically on
  its own before, just for fun mostly to see if I could do it.  

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lindy Mayfield
 Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 3:09 PM
 To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
 Subject: Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

snip

 Then I was thinking, well it's just the nature of 3270 and 
 that for a Unix shell TCP/IP clients like telnet, rlogin, and 
 ssh are superior.  On the other hand, just for the sake of 
 discussion, we've taken a step backwards with one of our 
 newest technologies, http and web pages.  Their behavior is 
 almost identical to a 3270 application and you have to jump 
 through some hoops and fake things to get a scrolling output.

I don't know if it is a hoop, but AJAX and Javascript make this
relatively easy.

snip

 Lindy

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-11-29 Thread Mark Zelden

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:09:08 +0100, Lindy Mayfield
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Funny, I was just looking again at OMVS which I rarely use unless I have to
cause I hate it.  I did an ls -la /tmp/ without realizing that there were a
few thousand files there. It has been scrolling away for almost 10 minutes
now. (-: It says at the bottom left:

ESC=¢

But I have no idea where the ¢ key is nor how to stop it.  (-:


Usually have to map it in your 3270 emulator.  Cut/paste from the OMVS 
screen...

I usually run the TSO OMVS shell with auto-scrolling off.   You can set that
at invocation (HELP OMVS for details) or use PF2 (subcommand) and type 
NOAUTO.  Then if you ran into the same situation you could use PF2 
and QUIT.  :-)

Mark
--
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Sr. Software and Systems Architect - z/OS Team Lead
Zurich North America / Farmers Insurance Group - ZFUS G-ITO
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
z/OS Systems Programming expert at http://expertanswercenter.techtarget.com/
Mark's MVS Utilities: http://home.flash.net/~mzelden/mvsutil.html

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-11-29 Thread Steve Comstock

Lindy Mayfield wrote:

Kirk,

That's an excellent point. I was actually thinking about that just after I answered -- how one might check for some sort of input to pause, stop or cancel things. I think it could probably be done somehow though. Still it would be a kludge and probably awkward.

Then I was thinking, well it's just the nature of 3270 and that for a Unix
shell TCP/IP clients like telnet, rlogin, and ssh are superior. On the other
hand, just for the sake of discussion, we've taken a step backwards with one of
our newest technologies, http and web pages. Their behavior is almost
identical to a 3270 application and you have to jump through some hoops and
fake things to get a scrolling output.

Funny, I was just looking again at OMVS which I rarely use unless I have to
cause I hate it. I did an ls -la /tmp/ without realizing that there were a few
thousand files there. It has been scrolling away for almost 10 minutes now. (-:
It says at the bottom left:

ESC=¢

But I have no idea where the ¢ key is nor how to stop it. (-:

For future reference, when you start up omvs, you can
specify the key to use for escape:

omvs esc('^')

then use shift+6 followed by a c or a d

Kind regards,

-Steve Comstock
The Trainer's Friend, Inc.

303-393-8716
http://www.trainersfriend.com

z/OS Application development made easier
* Our classes include
+ How things work
+ Programming examples with realistic applications
+ Starter / skeleton code
+ Complete working programs
+ Useful utilities and subroutines
+ Tips and techniques

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:03:23 -0700, Steve Comstock wrote:

I would be happy with a swap command to swap among omvs

How would that be different from the NextSess command
(PF9 by default)?

sessions and a different swap command to swap from an
omvs screen to the ISPF split screen sessions.

Now, _that_ would be nice.

-- gil

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:42:32 -0600, Patrick O'Keefe wrote:

I rarely do much Unixy stuff so what is comfortable for me is
probably far from what you want, but it sounds like ISHELL
addresses some of what you are asking for.  It certainly doesn't
address the half-duplex nature of 3270 datastreams.  (3270
datastreams ARE half-duplex.)  ...

Anyone who believe that's a fundamental limitation of 3270
hardware that can't be worked around:

o Has never used VM/CMS

o Has been brainwashed by TSO

... probably both.  On CMS, I can type input to my program, while
it runs, in anticipation of a VM READ.  I can type immediate commands
to my Rexx EXEC to turn on tracing with no ATTN nor need to wait for
in input prompt.

Yes, in theory there's an ugly race condition.  If I type HX when
the status shows RUNNING, I can't be sure that the command won't
be swallowed by a VM READ issued just as I press ENTER.  I suppose
it's horrendous if HX happens to be a dialog command that the problem
program interprets as ERASE * * *.

In practice, it works beautifully; I sometimes get caught by that
race.  I curse quietly, then ask myself, Would I prefer TSO's
terminal handling protocol?  No.

It has also been mentioned a couple times in this thread that the
z/OS operator's 327x console is free of the half-duplex constraint:
the operator never needs to press ATTN before entering a command.

I'd be delighted to see an alternative implementation of OMVS that
bypasses TSO (or is VTAM the culprit?) and passes 327x data streams
more directly to the terminal.

-- gil

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?

2007-11-29 Thread Anne Lynn Wheeler

The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Paul Gilmartin) writes:
 Anyone who believe that's a fundamental limitation of 3270
 hardware that can't be worked around:

 o Has never used VM/CMS

 o Has been brainwashed by TSO

 ... probably both.  On CMS, I can type input to my program, while
 it runs, in anticipation of a VM READ.  I can type immediate commands
 to my Rexx EXEC to turn on tracing with no ATTN nor need to wait for
 in input prompt.

we actually did some hardware mods to 3277 to eliminate race condition
if you happened to type at the instant the system wrote to the terminal
(which would lock the keyboard) ... aka 327x being half-duplex
infrastructure.

we complained about the change-over to 3274 controller with 3278
terminal (i.e. effectively terminal manufacturing cost reduction moving
a lot of components back into shared controller). having shared
electronics back in 3274 controller made 3278 terminal operations
(including response) a lot slower. complaining about it basically got a
response was that the significant hardware slowdown effectively wasn't
noticeable since mvs (tso) was so slow anyway that it wasn't
noticeable.

post with old 3272/3274 comparisons
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#19 3270 protocol

difference als shows up later with terminal emulation and the difference
between file download with ANR (i.e. 3272/3277) and DCA (i.e.
3274/3278) protocols (anr three times dca thruput)

lots of past posts mentioning terminal emulation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#emulation

for some total topic drift ... old email mentioning tso product manager
asking me if i would consider doing version of my resource manager for
mvs/tso operation (this was after marketing division decided to start
marketing CMS as the corporations strategic interactive product)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006b.html#email800310
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006v.html#email800310b

reference in these posts
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006b.html#39 another blast from the past
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006v.html#23 Ranking of non-IBM mainframe builders?

in some sense, CMS provided interactive personal computing in 60s, 70s
and some part of the 80s ... but then saw personal computing starting to
shift to PCs.

for other folklore topic drift, cern did a report at share circa '74
about tso/cms bakeoff. internally within the company, copies of the
report were classified confidential - restricted (i.e. available on
need-to-know only) ... aka while they couldn't restrict its availability
to customers ... they could restrict its availability to people in
marketing and product development.

... and courtesy of the science center
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech

virtual machines, cp67, cms (originally stood for cambridge monitor
system before renamed to conversational monitor system as part of vm370
morph), gml (invented in '69 at the science center) precursor to sgml,
html, xml, etc
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#sgml

and internal network technology
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#internalnet
also used in bitnet/earn
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subnetwork.html#bitnet

here is reference discussing transformation from sgml to html at cern
http://infomesh.net/html/history/early

and first webserver outside europe was on slac vm370 system: 
http://www.slac.stanford.edu/history/earlyweb/history.shtml

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Re: Why isn't OMVS command integrated with ISPF?