z/OSMF

[VER Z038]

Why so much hate for z/OSMF? We sound like a bunch of grumpy old boomers 
resistant to change. 🙂

I always found ServerPac clunky and unnecessarily complicated. Longing for that 
is not a hill I would choose to die on. 🙂

I have been supporting a 4 LPAR organisation since 2018 using z/OSMF Software 
Management and I think it's OK. It has its quirks but so does anything. It 
suits how I like to work.

I like having an automated inventory of what I deployed where and when. I also 
like being able to model a new deployment on an old one so the bulk of 
definitions do not need to happen from scratch. I also like how the integrated 
workflow for a new software level forces you to eyeball and action anything 
that is needed for the upgrade.

Using z/OSMF Software Management does not mean you have to turn your brain off. 
You can still augment or change how things happen if you need to. Jobs are 
generated that you can look at before submission. Job output is captured so you 
can look at it after it executes.

In my 4 LPAR environment, when building a new SYSRES, I only use z/OSMF to 
construct the first system. After that I choose to ADRDSSU full dump restore it 
the other 3 LPARs because I think redoing the z/OSMF work is simply too tedious 
to be worth doing over and over. But that is OK. I am sure IBM will get there 
eventually fixing things that need fixing. That has been happening consistently 
throughout the life of z/OSMF from the early days where simply starting it 
would completely paralyse your system.

Neil.



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Re: [EXTERNAL] zOSMF

[Matt Hogstrom]

I believe what you stated below is the major problem.  z/OS systems have years 
of process, embedded meta information in PROCs, file names, HLQs, etc.  Its not 
a “fresh disk install” its about existing processes and procedures, time to 
migrate, the risk involved in making the alignment happen and not to mention 
processes that do accounting, … and rely on all of those years of tribal 
knowledge based in the systems.  z/OSMF can probably make a dent in some of the 
“alignment” by forcing compliance but the problem has roots that run much 
deeper.  That coupled with products from multiple ISV’s that are also used to 
the way things used to be.  It’s not just the IBM products.  The ISVs are also 
strapped for resource and unless there was a united vision and approach in the 
industry I believe this will be a slow slog to normalized z/OS SYSPLEXes.  K8s 
has the benefit of defining the ephemeral state.

Matt Hogstrom
m...@hogstrom.org
+1-919-656-0564
PGP Key: 0x90ECB270
Facebook   LinkedIn 
  Twitter 

“It may be cognitive, but, it ain’t intuitive."
— Hogstrom



> On May 30, 2023, at 4:58 PM, Phil Smith III  wrote:
> 
> It's fine for IBM to push toward a standardized layout. I don't think that's 
> a bad thing at all, in principle-except for the existing shops who have zero 
> time/resources/interest in "fixing" their configuration. 


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Re: SSHD terminates immediately with permission(?) problem

[Michael Babcock]

I think ours is set for port 22 with SSHD* but I’d have to check to be
sure.

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 5:55 PM Wendell Lovewell <
01e9c0ee0673-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> A big "Thank you" to all of you listers who chimed in on my "EDC5111I
> Permission denied. (errno2=0x744C7246)." message.
>
> Almost everyone was on the right track.  Changing to port  showed that
> it was just port 22.  Commenting out the RESTRICTLOWPORTS and the PORT
> reservation for "22  SSHD" showed it was one of those.  Restoring
> RESTRICTLOWPORTS showed it was the port reservation for "22 SSHD" that was
> the problem.
>
> (The proc that's started is SSHD, but it always starts SSHDx--usually 3,
> sometimes 4.)
>
> I didn't expect the TCPPROF entries--neither of those I mentioned have
> changed for years.  My suspicion is that there was some service applied
> that perhaps actually started enforcing the port reservation to just
> "SSHD".
>
> Thanks again,
> Wendell
>
> --
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-- 
Michael Babcock
OneMain Financial
z/OS Systems Programmer, Lead

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Re: SSHD terminates immediately with permission(?) problem

[Wendell Lovewell]

A big "Thank you" to all of you listers who chimed in on my "EDC5111I 
Permission denied. (errno2=0x744C7246)." message.  

Almost everyone was on the right track.  Changing to port  showed that it 
was just port 22.  Commenting out the RESTRICTLOWPORTS and the PORT reservation 
for "22  SSHD" showed it was one of those.  Restoring RESTRICTLOWPORTS showed 
it was the port reservation for "22 SSHD" that was the problem.  

(The proc that's started is SSHD, but it always starts SSHDx--usually 3, 
sometimes 4.) 

I didn't expect the TCPPROF entries--neither of those I mentioned have changed 
for years.  My suspicion is that there was some service applied that perhaps 
actually started enforcing the port reservation to just "SSHD".  

Thanks again, 
Wendell

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Tue, 30 May 2023, at 21:41, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> SMP/E uses VSAM

I've no idea if that is or was correct

> and doesn't have the wonky member names of SMP through SMP4.

You keep saying this ... and you're still wrong.  I don't know why you're so 
sure.  Maybe it's changed since then (sometime between 1985 and 2000
or so, I expect).

I only ever used SMP/E, and wonky member names did exist in one (at least)
of the PDSes it used to store stuff.   I seem to remember also that the PDS
I found them in had a vast number of members in it - can't recall just how
many that was though.

Last time we discussed this (around 09 APRIL this year) I guessed which PDS
it might have been - and was probably wrong.  Someone else said they 
thought it was perhaps the SMPSCDS.


I've just run a search of my PC copies of some old mainframe notes, JCL 
etc, looking for "SMPSCDS" and I found a reference to this exact issue
inside the transcript of a discussion I had with IBM support (from, I think,
the year 2000), when we were using  os390 2.6 ... though that's not the
os in which I first noticed the weird member names).


The discussion was on the wider issue of poor documentation of 
just exactly which characters were valid in datasetnames.  For 
example I'd found it was psossible to create dsnames with dashes
/ minus signs / hyphens in their qualifiers.

IBM said it was impossible.  It wasn't - I'd successfully created

   MYHLQ.TEST--

via ispf option 3.2  and also 

   MYHLQ.TEST-

in JCL, without having single quotes around those dsnames.  

Another character one could get into a qualifier was the left curly
bracket (of course those are in some SVC member names) and 
perhaps the code that allowed those in ispf accidentally allowed
them in qualifiers as well.  I can't remember.

The conversation then moved on to implications of not being 
able to SMS-manage datasets whose names didn't meet the
tighter rules that SMS used.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Pommier, Rex]

Very true - and that isn't just Windows.  MS Office anyone?  It seems like 
every new release they tape the user interface icons and menu items to scrabble 
pieces, then give them a good shake in a hat, pulling them out randomly to 
build the next user interface.  OK, it isn't that bad but they do seem to go 
out of their way to hide things.  

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 3:28 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

How about the last time that the menu structure changed? I keep reading user 
complaints about each new release of windows that boil down to not being able 
to find things because they aren't where they used to be.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mason.gmu.edu/*smetz3__;fg!!KjMRP1Ixj6eLE0Fj!txf32ReslXXp6ZP9iT8NQlaKt9dGK_gpbJIzec2C9BeqAJzVlqqb0VvB0uhy3XKPTpkz3VyYpRxj7vALZw$
 


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tom 
Brennan [t...@tombrennansoftware.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 1:19 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

I can't remember the last time a Windows/Linux install failed.  I do remember 
the last time an ISV z/OS install failed, and when I called for help the 
support person said, "Don't worry about it, *everybody* calls when installing 
this particular product." :)

ISRFIND/ISRDDN is still hunting.  And you also need to look at LOADxx, 
IEASYSxx, and maybe IEASYMxx to figure out what members are being used.
How would an installation program find those libraries/members to automatically 
make the required mods?  Not easy.

Yes, z/OS is complex, but it doesn't have to be.  Like Lionel implied, maybe we 
need to standardize before something like z/OSMF can ever work as planned.

On 5/30/2023 9:02 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:
> Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good 
> luck.
>
> How many FMID components make up core z/OS?  Maybe if IBM made it one FMID 
> you could install like android.
>
> I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more 
> hunting thru libraries.
>
> z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I 
> can run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with 
> SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS release 
> and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to concede 
> to, for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches.
>
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
> Behalf Of Tom Brennan
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
> content is safe.
>
>
> So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and 
> Mac machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training?  For 
> example, I don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look 
> in /etc and parms are in standard directories.  Even my Android (while
> annoying) updates itself from time to time.
>
> z/OSMF isn't the cure though.  System standardization might be, but that 
> would still include IBM dictating how things are done.  We accept that on the 
> other platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems.
>
> On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:
>> I have to disagree.
>>
>> First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average 
>> customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?
>> Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to 
>> actually perform?
>> Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just 
>> add 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries 
>> past an RSU level?
>>
>> One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always 
>> provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.
>>
>> Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore.
>>
>> Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything 
>> else IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.
>>
>> But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe.  
>> Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively
>>
>>
>> Ms Terri E Shaffer
>> Senior Systems Engineer,
>> z/OS Support:
>> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
>> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
>> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
>> Behalf Of Mike Schwab
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU

Re: Two related member generation questions

[Pommier, Rex]

Really?  I just looked at my z/OS SCDS (2.4).  Definitely a PDS structure and 
here's what it looks like:

Name   
.G.3
.GXc'...
../.
.Z7X>...
_{..
_...

nGXc=...

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 3:42 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Two related member generation questions

SMP/E uses VSAM and doesn't have the wonky member names of SMP through SMP4.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mason.gmu.edu/*smetz3__;fg!!KjMRP1Ixj6eLE0Fj!uTR2hbpd_alY4SYl5X-y48A6PyMh-bKdl71yTkm3CC3CiVvwwxBU5lk4rG8gxT8D0nHq0JJGzRoNKtl7FQ$
 


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Jay 
Maynard [jaymayn...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:44 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions

SMP used to do this, and ISTR SMP/E does as well.

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:34 AM Schmitt, Michael 
wrote:

> And IMS. MFS Formats have non-display and lower-case letters in the 
> member names.
>
> Such as:
>
> ."wACOV0
> 07ACCDEF
> 2F613650
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
> Behalf Of Steve Thompson
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 8:19 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions
>
> I may not have edited these posts correctly for this, but, I thought I 
> should point out that an IBM product does create "illegal" (per JCL) 
> member names. And that would be Netview.
>
> In years gone by I had seen member names that were really "odd"
> and found out that it was Netview that was creating them.
>
> So yes, an assembler programmer could do this and have done this, 
> because it has been done.
>
> Steve Thompson
>
> On 5/30/2023 12:11 AM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
> >
> > Can't an Assembler programmer using STOW create PDS members with 
> > names beginning with '+', '-', '0', 'π', ... just about anything?  I 
> > don't
> believe it's proper
> > for higher layers such as JCL to introduce syntactic restrictions
> harsher than
> > those of core layers.  The only member name prohibited is 8X'FF',
> indicaring
> > the end of a PDS directory.
> >
> > How do LM services accessible, e.g. through REXX support member
> "generations"?
> >
>
> --
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>
>
>
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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

I haven't installed windows since 3.1, but I always do as fresh install of 
ArcalOS and Linux on a spare logical drive, using a RYO script to deploy my 
customization. That includes a lot of desktop customization for ArcaOS.

For z/OS, you should be able to keep your local mods in a PDS, rework if 
necessary and apply the in the new CSI.

Zap outside of SMP? Not my monkeys, not my circus.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tom 
Brennan [t...@tombrennansoftware.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 4:37 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

Funny!  Yes, that sounds like the same conversation I had with XXX
company and the  product, not necessarily that number of X's but
could be :)

You're right, I should have mentioned that when I install a new version
of Windows or Linux, I always start with a full install file and a new
disk.

And related, I really liked the fact that ServerPac (at least the way I
ran it) completely replaced the previous OS.  I can barely remember, but
before that I think we would do version updates to the existing res
pack.  So problem members, like maybe something we zapped years before
outside of SMPE, could live on.

On 5/30/2023 12:36 PM, Pommier, Rex wrote:
> Tom,
>
> I have gotten the privilege of reinstalling 2 Windows machines in the past 
> year that were so messed up from failed installs/updates that it was easier 
> to just low level the hard drive and start over.  Could I have fixed 1 or 
> both of them?  I don't really know, because Microsoft has hidden the inner 
> workings so far they wouldn't even tell me what was wrong.  Just some generic 
> "something broke" message.  Kind of hard to actually fix something when 
> that's the totality of the error message.
>
> But, yes, I've had similar experiences with third party z/OS software (I 
> won't mention any names or acronyms).  One recent episode was when I called 
> the vendor the first response I got back was along the lines of "yeah, we 
> can't even make sense of the install as documented.  Here, let me walk you 
> through my process."  His worked, but it was nothing like the document.
>
> Rex
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Tom Brennan
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 12:20 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
>
> I can't remember the last time a Windows/Linux install failed.  I do remember 
> the last time an ISV z/OS install failed, and when I called for help the 
> support person said, "Don't worry about it, *everybody* calls when installing 
> this particular product." :)
>
> ISRFIND/ISRDDN is still hunting.  And you also need to look at LOADxx, 
> IEASYSxx, and maybe IEASYMxx to figure out what members are being used.
> How would an installation program find those libraries/members to 
> automatically make the required mods?  Not easy.
>
> Yes, z/OS is complex, but it doesn't have to be.  Like Lionel implied, maybe 
> we need to standardize before something like z/OSMF can ever work as planned.
>
> On 5/30/2023 9:02 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:
>> Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good 
>> luck.
>>
>> How many FMID components make up core z/OS?  Maybe if IBM made it one FMID 
>> you could install like android.
>>
>> I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more 
>> hunting thru libraries.
>>
>> z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I 
>> can run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with 
>> SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS 
>> release and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to 
>> concede to, for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches.
>>
>> Ms Terri E Shaffer
>> Senior Systems Engineer,
>> z/OS Support:
>> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
>> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
>> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
>> Behalf Of Tom Brennan
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
>>
>> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
>> content is safe.
>>
>>
>> So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and
>> Mac machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training?  For
>> example, I don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look
>> in /etc and parms are in standard directories.  Even my Android (while
>> annoying) updates itself from time to time.
>>
>> z/OSMF isn't the cure though.  System standardization might be, but that 
>> would still include IBM dictating how things are done.  We accept that on 
>> the other platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems.
>>
>>

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Phil Smith III]

FWIW (perhaps nothing), IBM solved the upgrade problem ~30 years ago for VM by 
separating the operating system nucleus (kernel) from the filesystem. That is, 
you can have multiple copies of the VM nucleus on various CMS (the end-user 
environment) minidisks, which CP (the hypervisor) knows how to read. To 
upgrade, you build a new VM nucleus on a new minidisk, then tell the standalone 
loader to IPL from that. If it fails, you just swap it back and go figure out 
the problem. It's super-slick. Not realistic for z/OS, I suspect, though I 
don't know enough to know why. And it was done as sort of a skunkworks project 
by David Boloker and Rich Corak in what was left of the Cambridge Scientific 
Center, in offices above the Copley Place mall IIRC. I doubt anyone could get 
away with that today; even at the time, I was surprised it was accepted into 
the base.

 

Windows has gotten better about upgrading, although, like most of you, I rarely 
upgrade a machine-usually by the time I'm forced to consider a new version, 
it's time for new hardware. But Windows upgrade difficulties mostly reflect the 
fact that the data isn't well separated from the OS: I still have a folder on 
my current machine called "From", where  is the name of a machine four 
machines ago. This is itself a Bad Thing. Microsoft has tried, but then there's 
all the  under c:\users\phsiii\Documents\ that isn't MY data, and cannot 
just be copied to a new machine. They should have separated "user data" and 
"installed stuff data" better. (I suspect the Registry was supposed to be the 
end-all here, but of course isn't.)

 

It's fine for IBM to push toward a standardized layout. I don't think that's a 
bad thing at all, in principle-except for the existing shops who have zero 
time/resources/interest in "fixing" their configuration. Could all the PARMLIB 
stuff be pushed into one standard layout? Probably. Would it be easy? No, and 
it would make a lot of shops very nervous, I'm sure-"Yeah, Bob is the one who 
set that up before his heart attack, and nobody really knows the dependencies. 
I'm not touching it!" This isn't ideal, obviously, but it means that when an 
incremental change is needed, it can be made and tested in isolation, vs. some 
sort of big-bang reorg that's high-risk.

 

It still sounds to me like the real problem here is that there hasn't been 
enough thought put into the impact on existing customers from the changes to 
install/upgrade beyond "Use z/OSMF".

 

P.S. "Just watch this video"-sorry, that isn't how I (or, I suspect, many of 
the old-timers on here) do things. I don't have time to watch some video: I 
want a manual that explains the thing, so I can flip back and forth, add 
Post-Its, and/or copy/print excerpts. This is a growing trend that ignores that 
videos are a SLOW and inefficient way to learn many things; I attribute their 
rise to the fact that most people can't write a coherent sentence to save their 
lives, but they sure can talk.

 

...phsiii (sounding grumpy on a virtual Monday)


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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Tom Brennan]

And not just with every new release!  These days Windows (at least how I 
run it) decides to put on changes whenever it feels like it.


But if you're talking about the default Windows Start Menu, I haven't 
used it since Windows 7.  With a new Windows install that's probably the 
first thing I replace with an outside program.


On 5/30/2023 1:28 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote:

How about the last time that the menu structure changed? I keep reading user 
complaints about each new release of windows that boil down to not being able 
to find things because they aren't where they used to be.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tom 
Brennan [t...@tombrennansoftware.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 1:19 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

I can't remember the last time a Windows/Linux install failed.  I do
remember the last time an ISV z/OS install failed, and when I called for
help the support person said, "Don't worry about it, *everybody* calls
when installing this particular product." :)

ISRFIND/ISRDDN is still hunting.  And you also need to look at LOADxx,
IEASYSxx, and maybe IEASYMxx to figure out what members are being used.
How would an installation program find those libraries/members to
automatically make the required mods?  Not easy.

Yes, z/OS is complex, but it doesn't have to be.  Like Lionel implied,
maybe we need to standardize before something like z/OSMF can ever work
as planned.

On 5/30/2023 9:02 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:

Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good luck.

How many FMID components make up core z/OS?  Maybe if IBM made it one FMID you 
could install like android.

I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more 
hunting thru libraries.

z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I can 
run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with 
SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS release 
and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to concede to, 
for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches.

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and Mac 
machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training?  For example, I 
don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look in /etc and parms 
are in standard directories.  Even my Android (while
annoying) updates itself from time to time.

z/OSMF isn't the cure though.  System standardization might be, but that would 
still include IBM dictating how things are done.  We accept that on the other 
platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems.

On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:

I have to disagree.

First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average 
customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?
Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to actually 
perform?
Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add 
1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an 
RSU level?

One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always 
provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.

Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore.

Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else 
IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.

But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe.  
Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively


Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
Behalf Of Mike Schwab
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice  wrote:


People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the
positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed
very quickly (1
month)  What should IBM and us users be doing?

  1. Making better use of existing tools?  Eclipse ?
  2. Simplify the installation process

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

ObQohelet1:9 I vaguely recall reading a diatribe against the degeneracy of the 
younger generation, written in ancient Greece. There have always been people 
who didn't want to learn.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Shaffer, Terri [017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:24 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

I have to disagree.

First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average 
customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?
Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to actually 
perform?
Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add 
1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an 
RSU level?

One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always 
provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.

Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore.

Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else 
IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.

But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe.  
Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively


Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Mike Schwab
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice  wrote:
>
> People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the
> positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed
> very quickly (1
> month)  What should IBM and us users be doing?
>
>1. Making better use of existing tools?  Eclipse ?
>2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of
>code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E -
>just copy the libraries?)
>3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no
>longer needed and could just be set to "default")
>4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl?
>5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ...
>how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of
>the definitions.  It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in
>definitions.
>6. 
>
> Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction?
>
> Colin
>
Examine the current system,
create a script to set the equivalent values for z/OSMF?

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SSRB/SSRX and LOCAL locks question

[David Cole]

Does any know if suspended SRB control blocks (SSRB/SSRX) are 
stabilized by holding the LOCAL lock? (I'm considering logic in 
support of setting up TRAP2 debugging for SRBs.)


Thanks,
Dave Cole

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Seymour J Metz]

SMP/E uses VSAM and doesn't have the wonky member names of SMP through SMP4.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Jay 
Maynard [jaymayn...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:44 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions

SMP used to do this, and ISTR SMP/E does as well.

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:34 AM Schmitt, Michael 
wrote:

> And IMS. MFS Formats have non-display and lower-case letters in the member
> names.
>
> Such as:
>
> ."wACOV0
> 07ACCDEF
> 2F613650
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Steve Thompson
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 8:19 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions
>
> I may not have edited these posts correctly for this, but, I
> thought I should point out that an IBM product does create
> "illegal" (per JCL) member names. And that would be Netview.
>
> In years gone by I had seen member names that were really "odd"
> and found out that it was Netview that was creating them.
>
> So yes, an assembler programmer could do this and have done this,
> because it has been done.
>
> Steve Thompson
>
> On 5/30/2023 12:11 AM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
> >
> > Can't an Assembler programmer using STOW create PDS members with names
> > beginning with '+', '-', '0', 'π', ... just about anything?  I don't
> believe it's proper
> > for higher layers such as JCL to introduce syntactic restrictions
> harsher than
> > those of core layers.  The only member name prohibited is 8X'FF',
> indicaring
> > the end of a PDS directory.
> >
> > How do LM services accessible, e.g. through REXX support member
> "generations"?
> >
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>


--
Jay Maynard

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Tom Brennan]

Funny!  Yes, that sounds like the same conversation I had with XXX 
company and the  product, not necessarily that number of X's but 
could be :)


You're right, I should have mentioned that when I install a new version 
of Windows or Linux, I always start with a full install file and a new 
disk.


And related, I really liked the fact that ServerPac (at least the way I 
ran it) completely replaced the previous OS.  I can barely remember, but 
before that I think we would do version updates to the existing res 
pack.  So problem members, like maybe something we zapped years before 
outside of SMPE, could live on.


On 5/30/2023 12:36 PM, Pommier, Rex wrote:

Tom,

I have gotten the privilege of reinstalling 2 Windows machines in the past year that were 
so messed up from failed installs/updates that it was easier to just low level the hard 
drive and start over.  Could I have fixed 1 or both of them?  I don't really know, 
because Microsoft has hidden the inner workings so far they wouldn't even tell me what 
was wrong.  Just some generic "something broke" message.  Kind of hard to 
actually fix something when that's the totality of the error message.

But, yes, I've had similar experiences with third party z/OS software (I won't mention 
any names or acronyms).  One recent episode was when I called the vendor the first 
response I got back was along the lines of "yeah, we can't even make sense of the 
install as documented.  Here, let me walk you through my process."  His worked, but 
it was nothing like the document.

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 12:20 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

I can't remember the last time a Windows/Linux install failed.  I do remember the last 
time an ISV z/OS install failed, and when I called for help the support person said, 
"Don't worry about it, *everybody* calls when installing this particular 
product." :)

ISRFIND/ISRDDN is still hunting.  And you also need to look at LOADxx, 
IEASYSxx, and maybe IEASYMxx to figure out what members are being used.
How would an installation program find those libraries/members to automatically 
make the required mods?  Not easy.

Yes, z/OS is complex, but it doesn't have to be.  Like Lionel implied, maybe we 
need to standardize before something like z/OSMF can ever work as planned.

On 5/30/2023 9:02 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:

Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good luck.

How many FMID components make up core z/OS?  Maybe if IBM made it one FMID you 
could install like android.

I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more 
hunting thru libraries.

z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I can 
run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with 
SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS release 
and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to concede to, 
for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches.

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
Behalf Of Tom Brennan
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and
Mac machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training?  For
example, I don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look
in /etc and parms are in standard directories.  Even my Android (while
annoying) updates itself from time to time.

z/OSMF isn't the cure though.  System standardization might be, but that would 
still include IBM dictating how things are done.  We accept that on the other 
platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems.

On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:

I have to disagree.

First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average 
customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?
Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to actually 
perform?
Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add 
1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an 
RSU level?

One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always 
provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.

Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore.

Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else 
IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.

But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe.  
Sorry but I have seen 

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

I don't see an FMID issue with SMP/E. I see an issue with being able to install 
and remove service selectively, but can you have a reliable system if they take 
that away? The classical "reboot" and "reinstall" solutions to windows issues 
are not acceptable on a 24x365 enterprise server.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Shaffer, Terri [017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 12:02 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good luck.

How many FMID components make up core z/OS?  Maybe if IBM made it one FMID you 
could install like android.

I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more 
hunting thru libraries.

z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I can 
run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with 
SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS release 
and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to concede to, 
for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches.

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and Mac 
machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training?  For example, I 
don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look in /etc and parms 
are in standard directories.  Even my Android (while
annoying) updates itself from time to time.

z/OSMF isn't the cure though.  System standardization might be, but that would 
still include IBM dictating how things are done.  We accept that on the other 
platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems.

On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:
> I have to disagree.
>
> First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average 
> customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?
> Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to 
> actually perform?
> Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add 
> 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an 
> RSU level?
>
> One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always 
> provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.
>
> Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore.
>
> Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else 
> IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.
>
> But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe.  
> Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively
>
>
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Mike Schwab
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
> content is safe.
>
>
> On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice  wrote:
>>
>> People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the
>> positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed
>> very quickly (1
>> month)  What should IBM and us users be doing?
>>
>> 1. Making better use of existing tools?  Eclipse ?
>> 2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of
>> code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E -
>> just copy the libraries?)
>> 3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no
>> longer needed and could just be set to "default")
>> 4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl?
>> 5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ...
>> how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of
>> the definitions.  It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in
>> definitions.
>> 6. 
>>
>> Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction?
>>
>> Colin
>>
> Examine the current system,
> create a script to set the equivalent values for z/OSMF?
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff /

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

How about the last time that the menu structure changed? I keep reading user 
complaints about each new release of windows that boil down to not being able 
to find things because they aren't where they used to be.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tom 
Brennan [t...@tombrennansoftware.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 1:19 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

I can't remember the last time a Windows/Linux install failed.  I do
remember the last time an ISV z/OS install failed, and when I called for
help the support person said, "Don't worry about it, *everybody* calls
when installing this particular product." :)

ISRFIND/ISRDDN is still hunting.  And you also need to look at LOADxx,
IEASYSxx, and maybe IEASYMxx to figure out what members are being used.
How would an installation program find those libraries/members to
automatically make the required mods?  Not easy.

Yes, z/OS is complex, but it doesn't have to be.  Like Lionel implied,
maybe we need to standardize before something like z/OSMF can ever work
as planned.

On 5/30/2023 9:02 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:
> Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good 
> luck.
>
> How many FMID components make up core z/OS?  Maybe if IBM made it one FMID 
> you could install like android.
>
> I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more 
> hunting thru libraries.
>
> z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I 
> can run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with 
> SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS release 
> and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to concede 
> to, for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches.
>
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Tom Brennan
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
> content is safe.
>
>
> So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and Mac 
> machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training?  For example, I 
> don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look in /etc and parms 
> are in standard directories.  Even my Android (while
> annoying) updates itself from time to time.
>
> z/OSMF isn't the cure though.  System standardization might be, but that 
> would still include IBM dictating how things are done.  We accept that on the 
> other platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems.
>
> On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:
>> I have to disagree.
>>
>> First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average 
>> customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?
>> Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to 
>> actually perform?
>> Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just 
>> add 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries 
>> past an RSU level?
>>
>> One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always 
>> provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.
>>
>> Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore.
>>
>> Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything 
>> else IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.
>>
>> But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe.  
>> Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively
>>
>>
>> Ms Terri E Shaffer
>> Senior Systems Engineer,
>> z/OS Support:
>> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
>> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
>> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
>> Behalf Of Mike Schwab
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
>>
>> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
>> content is safe.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice  wrote:
>>>
>>> People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the
>>> positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed
>>> very quickly (1
>>> month)  What should IBM and us users be doing?
>>>
>>>  1. Making better use of existing tools?  Eclipse ?
>>>  2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of
>>>  code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E -
>>>  just copy the libraries?)
>>> 

Re: SSHD terminates immediately with permission(?) problem

[Matthew Stitt]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned about checking to see if the low ports (< 
1024) are restricted.

Matthew

On Tue, 30 May 2023 13:23:23 +, Allan Staller  wrote:

>Classification: Confidential
>
>Things to check.
>TCP Policy Agent
>Other users of the poirt (as previously suggested).
>OMVS segment for the affected user.
>Public/Private keypair definitions and Permissions. SSH is (*VERY PICKY*) 
>about file permissions.
>
>I suggest the folloning reading (thank you Dovetail).
>https://coztoolkit.com/docs/sftp/ssh_keys_part2_2012-06-19.pdf
>https://coztoolkit.com/docs/sftp/ssh_keys_part1_2012-06-12.pdf
>
>HTH,
>
>-Original Message-
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
>Wendell Lovewell
>Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 6:49 PM
>To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>Subject: SSHD terminates immediately with permission(?) problem
>
>[CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the 
>sender, Don’t click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, 
>which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.]
>
>I've done something wrong that I can't identify, and now SSHD terminates 
>immediately after starting.
>
>I'm not getting anything helpful on the console or in the joblog.  But I am 
>getting these msgs in syslog:
>
>OMVSKERN SSHD3sshd[67174408]: error: FOTS1442 Bind to port 22 on :: 
>failed: EDC5111I Permission denied. (errno2=0x744C7246).
>OMVSKERN SSHD3sshd[67174408]: error: FOTS1442 Bind to port 22 on 0.0.0.0 
>failed: EDC5111I Permission denied. (errno2=0x744C7246).
>OMVSKERN SSHD3sshd[67174408]: fatal: FOTS1464 Cannot bind any address.
>
>I've looked up the 7246 code:
>JRPORTACCESSAUTHQEQU 29254* User does not have authority to access 
>this port.
>
>OMVSKERN's is UID(0).  Has ALTER access to BPX.DAEMON.  Port 22 is not in use, 
>per D TCPIP,,N,SOCKETS
>
>None of the files in /etc/ssh had changed for 4 years, so I don't think it's 
>there.  (I did set LogLevel to DEBUG3, which didn't help any.)
>
>The only things I can think of that I might have messed up something with 
>keys.  I did try some weeks ago to set up a certificate to bypass entering my 
>password when using "ssh user@zos" and didn't get that to work.   And I did 
>install a new CERTAUTH this week for the new IBM service requirement 
>("DigiCert Global Root G2"), 'tho I can't imagine that would matter.
>
>Any suggestions would really be appreciated...I'm n t much good with entering 
>USS commands via a 3270 screen.
>
>TIA,
>Wendell

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Sri h Kolusu]

>> Turned on both of the empty member options and it still does not allow input 
>> under Prompt.


Charles,

I misunderstood your request.  The prompt option is not available as it is 
already provided in the EDIT menu itself. However, the panel ISREDM01 is NOT 
updated with the prompt options you see in 3.4.  Look at the bottom of the 
screen which allows you to input the Initial macro and profile names…  you just 
need to use 3.4 for member generations.

ISREDM01 EDIT  Edit Entry Panel
 Command ===>

 ISPF Library:
Project . . .
Group . . . .  . . .  . . .  . . .
Type  . . . .
Member  . . . (Blank or pattern for member selection list)

 Other Partitioned, Sequential or VSAM Data Set, or z/OS UNIX file:
Name . . . . . PDSE2  +
Volume Serial . .   (If not cataloged)

 Workstation File:
File Name  . .
 Options
 Initial Macro  . . . . Confirm Cancel/Move/Replace
 Profile Name . . . . . Mixed Mode
 Format Name  . . . . . Edit on Workstation
 Data Set Password  . . Preserve VB record length
 Record Length  . . . .
 Line Command Table . .  Data Encoding
1. ASCII
2. UTF-8




Thanks,
Kolusu


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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Charles Mills]

Turned on both of the empty member options and it still does not allow input 
under Prompt.

This is with Edit -- ISPF 2. Works with DSLIST -- ISPF 3.4.

Charles


On Tue, 30 May 2023 17:00:50 +, Sri h Kolusu  wrote:

>>> Interesting. The Edit member selection panel (ISPF 2 with a blank member 
>>> name) shows a Prompt heading but the fields are protected.
>
>Charles,
>
>You probably don’t have the option to edit empty members.  Using option 0 
>(settings) from ISPF main menu and look at Member list options  at the bottom

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Pommier, Rex]

Tom,

I have gotten the privilege of reinstalling 2 Windows machines in the past year 
that were so messed up from failed installs/updates that it was easier to just 
low level the hard drive and start over.  Could I have fixed 1 or both of them? 
 I don't really know, because Microsoft has hidden the inner workings so far 
they wouldn't even tell me what was wrong.  Just some generic "something broke" 
message.  Kind of hard to actually fix something when that's the totality of 
the error message.

But, yes, I've had similar experiences with third party z/OS software (I won't 
mention any names or acronyms).  One recent episode was when I called the 
vendor the first response I got back was along the lines of "yeah, we can't 
even make sense of the install as documented.  Here, let me walk you through my 
process."  His worked, but it was nothing like the document.

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 12:20 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

I can't remember the last time a Windows/Linux install failed.  I do remember 
the last time an ISV z/OS install failed, and when I called for help the 
support person said, "Don't worry about it, *everybody* calls when installing 
this particular product." :)

ISRFIND/ISRDDN is still hunting.  And you also need to look at LOADxx, 
IEASYSxx, and maybe IEASYMxx to figure out what members are being used. 
How would an installation program find those libraries/members to automatically 
make the required mods?  Not easy.

Yes, z/OS is complex, but it doesn't have to be.  Like Lionel implied, maybe we 
need to standardize before something like z/OSMF can ever work as planned.

On 5/30/2023 9:02 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:
> Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good 
> luck.
> 
> How many FMID components make up core z/OS?  Maybe if IBM made it one FMID 
> you could install like android.
> 
> I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more 
> hunting thru libraries.
> 
> z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I 
> can run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with 
> SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS release 
> and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to concede 
> to, for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches.
> 
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
> Behalf Of Tom Brennan
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
> 
> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
> content is safe.
> 
> 
> So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and 
> Mac machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training?  For 
> example, I don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look 
> in /etc and parms are in standard directories.  Even my Android (while
> annoying) updates itself from time to time.
> 
> z/OSMF isn't the cure though.  System standardization might be, but that 
> would still include IBM dictating how things are done.  We accept that on the 
> other platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems.
> 
> On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:
>> I have to disagree.
>>
>> First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average 
>> customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?
>> Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to 
>> actually perform?
>> Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just 
>> add 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries 
>> past an RSU level?
>>
>> One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always 
>> provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.
>>
>> Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore.
>>
>> Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything 
>> else IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.
>>
>> But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe.  
>> Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively
>>
>>
>> Ms Terri E Shaffer
>> Senior Systems Engineer,
>> z/OS Support:
>> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
>> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
>> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
>> Behalf Of Mike Schwab
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
>>
>> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
>> content

Re: zOSMF

[Kurt J. Quackenbush]

> > Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction?
>
> Examine the current system,
> create a script to set the equivalent values for z/OSMF?

Oh, so just like the Model function in z/OSMF Software Management?

When you install software, like z/OS, using z/OSMF, during the Configuration 
step of the Deployment action in Software Management you have the option to 
model the configuration on your existing installed software.  For example, if 
you're installing z/OS 2.5, you can initialize the configuration to look a lot 
like your existing z/OS 2.4 or 2.3 system.  In my opinion this is better than 
the CustomPac saved configuration function since that configuration is dated 
and stale, whereas your existing z/OS 2.4 or 2.3 is most likely something you 
actively service and use in some capacity.

If you want to learn more about installing software using z/OSMF Software 
Management you can check out this video tutorial series.
https://mediacenter.ibm.com/playlist/dedicated/101043781/1_mzzf31vy/1_f1qhec1j
In particular, at 57 seconds into the fourth video I describe the Model 
function.

Kurt Quackenbush
IBM  |  z/OS SMP/E and z/OSMF Software Management  |  ku...@us.ibm.com

Chuck Norris never uses CHECK when he applies PTFs.


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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Tom Brennan]

"I've known people for whom using Excel is a struggle."

Ha ha!  Add me to that list.

It could be the original PC's and Unix/Linux were also more like a 
tailored suit, but then things like plug-and-play and better install 
programs were created to hide and standardize.  Like you say, that was 
required for the target audience.  But as a side effect, it also made 
things easy for experienced users.


On 5/30/2023 10:36 AM, John McKown wrote:

Windows, MacOS, Android and so on are built on the premise of "mass
marketing". Which means they need are set up in "the one true way". Lack of
choice is required to make things easy enough for someone who is not
interested in technology,  just using something. I've known people for whom
using Excel is a struggle. They use MS Word like an old style typewriter.
Forget getting them to do any kind of database. z/OS is not meant to be one
size fits all. It is like a bespoke, individually tailored tuxedo.

On Tue, May 30, 2023, 11:03 Shaffer, Terri <
017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:


Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good
luck.

How many FMID components make up core z/OS?  Maybe if IBM made it one FMID
you could install like android.

I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more
hunting thru libraries.

z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I
can run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF
with SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS
release and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to
concede to, for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches.

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
Of Tom Brennan
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the
content is safe.


So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and Mac
machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training?  For example,
I don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look in /etc and
parms are in standard directories.  Even my Android (while
annoying) updates itself from time to time.

z/OSMF isn't the cure though.  System standardization might be, but that
would still include IBM dictating how things are done.  We accept that on
the other platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems.

On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:

I have to disagree.

First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an

average customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?

Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to

actually perform?

Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and

just add 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply
libraries past an RSU level?


One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always

provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.


Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn

anymore.


Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything

else IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.


But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the

mainframe.  Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work
effectively



Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
Behalf Of Mike Schwab
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know

the content is safe.



On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice 

wrote:


People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the
positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed
very quickly (1
month)  What should IBM and us users be doing?

 1. Making better use of existing tools?  Eclipse ?
 2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST

level of

 code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use

SMP/E -

 just copy the libraries?)
 3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters

are no

 longer needed and could just be set to "default")
 4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl?
 5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging

...

 how can we simplify this - for example products should provide

members of

 the definitions.  It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type

in

Help for the Less Fortunate - How do I maintain z/VM Users and Disks without DIRMAINT

[Tom Longfellow]

Our history with z/VM could best be defined as 'Hobbyist' level to test the 
concept of multiple virtual Linux servers running on an IFL.
As it not being a formally funded project,  licensed $$$ software features like 
DIRMAINT would NOT be purchased or licensed.

Over a dozen years ago I set this up using the going information at the time  
(z/VM 6.2, SLES 11.3, etc) and the working notes from Training Courses offered 
by IBM at the time.   I have refreshed once using the SHARE lab notes presented 
often at share.The bad news is that we just changed office buildings and 
some long needed cleanup was performed and those cookbook recipes are lost to 
me forever.

This leaves me adrift missing my lost knowledge on how to do things like.
Get new Volumes attached.
Get new Users defined
Get the disks and dasd formatted.

I know about USER DIRECT and SYSTEM CONFIG but I do not even know what 
User/Minidisk to look at to edit them.
Or a safe way to perform DIRECTXA.
The documentation tells you all about the files, but nothing other than 
DIRMAINT is mentioned for maintaining these files.

The even sadder part is that my past User definitions exist on VM 6.3 disks, 
but I do not even have a roadmap to find them.  Or a known way to migrate the 
old definitions to the new USER DIRECT file (even with manual XEDIT actions)

Does anybody know about that old LAB with some useful cookbook recipes for the 
less fortunate, unfunded sysprogs?

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Re: Searching for a process to clean my VTS

[Tom Longfellow]

Yes I have the list -- I know them by naming standard and I can do a Virtual 
Volume Search to the Cluster and get a downloadable list of volume names and 
their current category status.I already have a REXX roughed out that 
generates the command I think I need.   But I really need to find the set of 
actions that have be performed so I can generate all the commands I need.  
Along with RMM/IDCAMS/LI requests to kill these zombies for good and eject them 
from my life.

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[John McKown]

Windows, MacOS, Android and so on are built on the premise of "mass
marketing". Which means they need are set up in "the one true way". Lack of
choice is required to make things easy enough for someone who is not
interested in technology,  just using something. I've known people for whom
using Excel is a struggle. They use MS Word like an old style typewriter.
Forget getting them to do any kind of database. z/OS is not meant to be one
size fits all. It is like a bespoke, individually tailored tuxedo.

On Tue, May 30, 2023, 11:03 Shaffer, Terri <
017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good
> luck.
>
> How many FMID components make up core z/OS?  Maybe if IBM made it one FMID
> you could install like android.
>
> I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more
> hunting thru libraries.
>
> z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I
> can run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF
> with SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS
> release and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to
> concede to, for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches.
>
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Tom Brennan
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the
> content is safe.
>
>
> So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and Mac
> machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training?  For example,
> I don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look in /etc and
> parms are in standard directories.  Even my Android (while
> annoying) updates itself from time to time.
>
> z/OSMF isn't the cure though.  System standardization might be, but that
> would still include IBM dictating how things are done.  We accept that on
> the other platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems.
>
> On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:
> > I have to disagree.
> >
> > First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an
> average customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?
> > Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to
> actually perform?
> > Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and
> just add 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply
> libraries past an RSU level?
> >
> > One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always
> provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.
> >
> > Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn
> anymore.
> >
> > Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything
> else IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.
> >
> > But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the
> mainframe.  Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work
> effectively
> >
> >
> > Ms Terri E Shaffer
> > Senior Systems Engineer,
> > z/OS Support:
> > ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
> > H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> > terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> > Behalf Of Mike Schwab
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
> >
> > EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know
> the content is safe.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the
> >> positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed
> >> very quickly (1
> >> month)  What should IBM and us users be doing?
> >>
> >> 1. Making better use of existing tools?  Eclipse ?
> >> 2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST
> level of
> >> code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use
> SMP/E -
> >> just copy the libraries?)
> >> 3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters
> are no
> >> longer needed and could just be set to "default")
> >> 4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl?
> >> 5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging
> ...
> >> how can we simplify this - for example products should provide
> members of
> >> the definitions.  It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type
> in
> >> definitions.
> >> 6. 
> >>
> >> Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction?
> >>
> >> Colin
> >>
> > Examine the current system,
> > cre

Re: [EXTERNAL] zOSMF

[Tom Brennan]

I agree with that.

On 5/30/2023 10:27 AM, Matt Hogstrom wrote:

I can’t speak for IBM but I believe that z/OSMF is part of the strategy to help 
guide folks onto a consistent approach.   The challenge is that policies, 
procedures and configuration options have existed for years across thousands of 
customers.  The cloud refers to servers as cattle because they are deployed in 
an automated fashion and are ephemeral and z/OS has been a pet that is long 
lived and unique and are persistent.

Matt Hogstrom
m...@hogstrom.org 

“It may be cognitive, but, it ain’t intuitive."
— Hogstrom




On May 30, 2023, at 1:19 PM, Tom Brennan  wrote:

Yes, z/OS is complex, but it doesn't have to be.  Like Lionel implied, maybe we 
need to standardize before something like z/OSMF can ever work as planned.



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Re: [EXTERNAL] zOSMF

[Matt Hogstrom]

I can’t speak for IBM but I believe that z/OSMF is part of the strategy to help 
guide folks onto a consistent approach.   The challenge is that policies, 
procedures and configuration options have existed for years across thousands of 
customers.  The cloud refers to servers as cattle because they are deployed in 
an automated fashion and are ephemeral and z/OS has been a pet that is long 
lived and unique and are persistent.

Matt Hogstrom
m...@hogstrom.org 

“It may be cognitive, but, it ain’t intuitive."
— Hogstrom



> On May 30, 2023, at 1:19 PM, Tom Brennan  wrote:
> 
> Yes, z/OS is complex, but it doesn't have to be.  Like Lionel implied, maybe 
> we need to standardize before something like z/OSMF can ever work as planned.


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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Tom Brennan]

I can't remember the last time a Windows/Linux install failed.  I do 
remember the last time an ISV z/OS install failed, and when I called for 
help the support person said, "Don't worry about it, *everybody* calls 
when installing this particular product." :)


ISRFIND/ISRDDN is still hunting.  And you also need to look at LOADxx, 
IEASYSxx, and maybe IEASYMxx to figure out what members are being used. 
How would an installation program find those libraries/members to 
automatically make the required mods?  Not easy.


Yes, z/OS is complex, but it doesn't have to be.  Like Lionel implied, 
maybe we need to standardize before something like z/OSMF can ever work 
as planned.


On 5/30/2023 9:02 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:

Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good luck.

How many FMID components make up core z/OS?  Maybe if IBM made it one FMID you 
could install like android.

I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more 
hunting thru libraries.

z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I can 
run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with 
SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS release 
and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to concede to, 
for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches.

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and Mac 
machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training?  For example, I 
don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look in /etc and parms 
are in standard directories.  Even my Android (while
annoying) updates itself from time to time.

z/OSMF isn't the cure though.  System standardization might be, but that would 
still include IBM dictating how things are done.  We accept that on the other 
platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems.

On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:

I have to disagree.

First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average 
customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?
Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to actually 
perform?
Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add 
1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an 
RSU level?

One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always 
provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.

Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore.

Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else 
IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.

But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe.  
Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively


Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
Behalf Of Mike Schwab
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice  wrote:


People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the
positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed
very quickly (1
month)  What should IBM and us users be doing?

 1. Making better use of existing tools?  Eclipse ?
 2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of
 code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E -
 just copy the libraries?)
 3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no
 longer needed and could just be set to "default")
 4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl?
 5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ...
 how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of
 the definitions.  It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in
 definitions.
 6. 

Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction?

Colin


Examine the current system,
create a script to set the equivalent values for z/OSMF?

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Sri h Kolusu]

>> Interesting. The Edit member selection panel (ISPF 2 with a blank member 
>> name) shows a Prompt heading but the fields are protected.

Charles,

You probably don’t have the option to edit empty members.  Using option 0 
(settings) from ISPF main menu and look at Member list options  at the bottom

  Log/List  Function keys  Colors  Environ  Workstation  Identifier  Help
ss
SETTINGSISPF Settings
Command ===>

Options   Print Graphics
  Enter "/" to select optionFamily printer type 2
 Command line at bottom Device name . . . .
 Panel display CUA mode Aspect ratio  . . . 0
  /  Long message in pop-up
 Tab to action bar choices
 Tab to point-and-shoot fieldsGeneral
 Restore TEST/TRACE options Input field pad . . B
 Session Manager mode   Command delimiter . ;
 Jump from leader dots
 Edit PRINTDS Command
 Always show split line
 Enable EURO sign

Member list options
  Enter "/" to select option
  /  Scroll member list
  /  Allow empty member list
  /  Allow empty member list (nomatch)
  /  Empty member list for edit only


Thanks,
Kolusu



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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Charles Mills]

@Sri and @Steve, thank you. Got it. From ISPF 3.4.

Interesting. The Edit member selection panel (ISPF 2 with a blank member name) 
shows a Prompt heading but the fields are protected.

Charles

On Tue, 30 May 2023 16:39:53 +, Sri h Kolusu  wrote:

1. Is there any support in JCL or in ISPF for reading member generations?
>
>Charles,
>
>There is no JCL suprort for member generations, but ISPF does provide the 
>support.  Here is how you do it.
>
>
>1. Allocate PDSE rersion 2 with maxgens defined at 20.  Note your allocation 
>will fail if your SYS1.PARMLIB(IGDSMSxx) member does not have MAXGENS_LIMIT 
>specified)
>
>
>//STEP0100 EXEC PGMEIEFBR14
>//AF01 DD DSN=&SYSUID..PDSE2,
>//DISP=(NEW,CATLG,DELETE),
>//UNIT=SYSDA,
>//SPACE=(CYL,(1,1,5)),
>//DSNTYPE=(LIBRARY,2),MAXGENS=20,
>//DCB=(LRECL=80,RECFM=FB,BLKSIZE=0)
>
>2. Create a member in the above allocated PDS
>
>   Menu  Functions  Confirm  Utilities  Help
> s
> DSLIST  EDIT  USERID.PDSE2
> Command ===> s test1
>Name Prompt   Size   Created
>   **End**

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Sri h Kolusu]

>>>1. Is there any support in JCL or in ISPF for reading member generations?

Charles,

There is no JCL support for member generations, but ISPF does provide the 
support.  Here is how you do it.


1. Allocate PDSE version 2 with maxgens defined at 20.  Note your allocation 
will fail if your SYS1.PARMLIB(IGDSMSxx) member does not have MAXGENS_LIMIT 
specified)


//STEP0100 EXEC PGM=IEFBR14
//AF01 DD DSN=&SYSUID..PDSE2,
//DISP=(NEW,CATLG,DELETE),
//UNIT=SYSDA,
//SPACE=(CYL,(1,1,5)),
//DSNTYPE=(LIBRARY,2),MAXGENS=20,
//DCB=(LRECL=80,RECFM=FB,BLKSIZE=0)

2. Create a member in the above allocated PDS

   Menu  Functions  Confirm  Utilities  Help
 s
 DSLIST  EDIT  USERID.PDSE2
 Command ===> s test1
Name Prompt   Size   Created
   **End**


3. Add just 1 record

 DSLIST USERID.PDSE2(TEST1) - 01.00   Colu
 Command ===>  S
 ** * Top of Data **
 ==MSG> -Warning- The UNDO command is not available until you change
 ==MSG>   your edit profile using the command RECOVERY ON.
 '' abc
 ''
 ''

4. Issue a SAVE

5. Insert another record

DSLIST USERID.PDSE2(TEST1) - 01.00   Some
Command ===>
** * Top of Data ***
==MSG> -Warning- The UNDO command is not available until you change
==MSG>   your edit profile using the command RECOVERY ON.
000100 abc
'' def

6. Issue another SAVE

7. Insert another record

DSLIST USERID.PDSE2(TEST1) - 01.00   C
Command ===>
** * Top of Data ***
==MSG> -Warning- The UNDO command is not available until you change
==MSG>   your edit profile using the command RECOVERY ON.
000100 abc
000200 def
'' ghi

8. Issue another SAVE

Now you have 3 generations of the member.

9.To access the -2 version do the following (make sure you have a slash under 
the PROMPT column)


  Menu  Functions  Confirm  Utilities  Help
ss
DSLIST  EDIT  USERID.PDSE2
Command ===>
   Name Prompt   Size   Created
e TEST1/3  2023/05/30
  **End**

In the panel prompt (put -2 for PDSE generation) field)

Esss
e   Workstation  Help
e 
e DSLISTEDIT Entry Panel
e  More: +
e Object Name:
e 'USERID.PDSE2(TEST1)'
e * No workstation connection
e   Initial Macro  . .
e   PDSE Generation. . -2
e   Line Command Table
e   Profile Name . . .   (Blank defaults to Type)
e   Format Name  . . .
e   Panel Name . . . .   (Leave blank for default)
e
e   Options   Data Encoding
e  Confirm Cancel/Move/Replace   1. ASCII
e  EDIT Mixed Mode   2. UTF-8
e  EDIT host file on
e  Workstation
e  Preserve VB record length
e   /  Warn on First Data Change
e
Dsss




Now you will see this

** * Top of Data *
==MSG> -Warning- The UNDO command is not available until you change
==MSG>   your edit profile using the command RECOVERY ON.
==MSG> -CAUTION- Edit session has been invoked for generation 2
==MSG>   High generation number is currently 3
01 abc


Hope this helps..

Thanks,
Kolusu


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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Shaffer, Terri]

Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good luck.

How many FMID components make up core z/OS?  Maybe if IBM made it one FMID you 
could install like android.

I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more 
hunting thru libraries.

z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I can 
run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with 
SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS release 
and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to concede to, 
for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches.

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and Mac 
machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training?  For example, I 
don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look in /etc and parms 
are in standard directories.  Even my Android (while
annoying) updates itself from time to time.

z/OSMF isn't the cure though.  System standardization might be, but that would 
still include IBM dictating how things are done.  We accept that on the other 
platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems.

On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:
> I have to disagree.
>
> First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average 
> customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?
> Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to 
> actually perform?
> Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add 
> 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an 
> RSU level?
>
> One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always 
> provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.
>
> Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore.
>
> Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else 
> IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.
>
> But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe.  
> Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively
>
>
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Mike Schwab
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
> content is safe.
>
>
> On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice  wrote:
>>
>> People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the
>> positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed
>> very quickly (1
>> month)  What should IBM and us users be doing?
>>
>> 1. Making better use of existing tools?  Eclipse ?
>> 2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of
>> code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E -
>> just copy the libraries?)
>> 3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no
>> longer needed and could just be set to "default")
>> 4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl?
>> 5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ...
>> how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of
>> the definitions.  It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in
>> definitions.
>> 6. 
>>
>> Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction?
>>
>> Colin
>>
> Examine the current system,
> create a script to set the equivalent values for z/OSMF?
>
> --
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> immediately and destroy this email. Any review, dissemination, use or 
> reliance upon this information by unintende

Re: Two related member generation questions

[Steve Smith]

>From an "Extended" member list display (with the 8-char command field), you
can place a '/' in the Prompt field:

EDIT  SAS00.MAIN.CNTLMember DEFDDIR1
saved
Command ===>  Scroll ===>
CSR
   Name Prompt   Size   Created  Changed
 ID
s DEFDDIR1 /Edited 23  2023/05/30  2023/05/30 22:48:08
 SAS00

That will cause this pop-up:

+---+
|   Help|
|   |
|   EDIT Entry Panel|
|   |
| Object Name:  |
| 'SAS00.MAIN.CNTL(DEFDDIR1)'   |
|   Initial Macro  . .  |
|   PDSE Generation. . -2   |
<- specify here
|   Line Command Table  |
|   Profile Name . . .   (Blank defaults to Type)   |
|   Format Name  . . .  |
|   Panel Name . . . .   (Leave blank for default)  |
|   |
|   Options   Data Encoding |
|  Confirm Cancel/Move/Replace   1. ASCII   |
|  EDIT Mixed Mode   2. UTF-8   |
|  Preserve VB record length|
|   /  Warn on First Data Change|
|   |
| Press ENTER to continue. Press CANCEL to cancel action.   |
|   |
|   |
+---+

hth,
sas


On Mon, May 29, 2023 at 11:05 PM Charles Mills  wrote:

> I'll bite: where is it hidden?
>
> CM
>
>

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Doug]

Maybe actually teach the new sysprog's how MVS works? Like real 
knowledge?
Ah, why do THAT when there are s many better shortcuts to give them 
to screw it all up.



Glad my time in this gets shorter every day.

Doug Fuerst

-- Original Message --
From: "Colin Paice" 
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 30-May-23 10:04:12
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF


People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the positive
sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed very quickly (1
month)  What should IBM and us users be doing?

   1. Making better use of existing tools?  Eclipse ?
   2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of
   code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E -
   just copy the libraries?)
   3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no
   longer needed and could just be set to "default")
   4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl?
   5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ...
   how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of
   the definitions.  It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in
   definitions.
   6. 

Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction?

Colin

On Tue, 30 May 2023 at 14:16, Allan Staller <
0387911dea17-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:


 Classification: Confidential

 Agreed!

 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
 Of Shaffer, Terri
 Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 12:34 PM
 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
 Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

 [CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust
 the sender, Don't click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing
 email, which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.]

 While I see where you went with your thought process, the mainframe I
 don't think will ever get to a windows or Android mentality.

 I mean I know IBM wants to make the mainframe less complex, but by design
 that can only go so far.

 For example, How many SMPE environments does a company have? How many
 Catalogs> How are the volumes laid out?  RES, DLIB, CATALOG, Paging, ETC...

 Can you sort of automate the day to day management, or operations, yes.
 Or how about how is maintenance applied, If I use your examples of
 windows/Android. Its live update, not sure that would fly in any company.
 And whats my backout if something doesn't work? Think of what you said,
 your reset your phone and started again.. H

 z/OSMF is the IBM forced method here, and they have taken a process that
 has worked for 25+ years,  like I want to copy the old config settings from
 a previous z/OS install.  Why should I have to re-invent that wheel every
 time I install z/OS?  I use to be able to do a serverpac in a few hours,
 now with the z/OSMF response time and issues, that isn't possible.

 I still like the option that was mentioned, 2 switches, Novice, which
 forces you do everything and advanced, which would allow me to bypass steps
 or under the cover processes, IBM is forcing!!  Its just like windows, when
 I select advanced install option.

 In a way I am glad I have only 7 more years left until retirement.  I love
 the mainframe and z/OS, but I avoid z/OSMF like the plague, I will only use
 it for z/OS installs only because I am forced too..

 Ms Terri E Shaffer
 Senior Systems Engineer,
 z/OS Support:
 ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter
 H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
 terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
 Of Phil Smith III
 Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 12:38 PM
 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
 Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

 EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the
 content is safe.


 Jack Zukt wrote, in part:
 >The real problem, as I see it, is that drag and drop interfaces move
 >you away from the need to know what you are doing.

 That's the *goal*. Do you know what the Windows installer is doing?
 Android? iOS? No you do not, beyond the high-level "putting  in places"
 and "making it bootable". While it makes me nervous because, like you, I've
 been doing this for too long, most people see this as a good thing, and I
 can't really dispute it.

 In 1920, if you had a car, you understood air/fuel mixture, how to do oil
 and tire changes, etc. Most people don't now, and that's not a bad thing.
 Sure, occasionally they get stranded, but by and large, it Just Works.

 On the flip side, I was switching phones and the migration failed. I did a
 reset of the new phone and restarted it, and it worked the second time. Did
 I understand the process? No. Did I need to? No. Am I happy that I couldn't
 tell what failed? Not really, but, again, I really didn't need to. And
 99.44% of people wouldn't care, as long as it worked the second try.

 and Colin Paice asked:
 >Wou

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Lionel B. Dyck]

Perhaps we've put the cart before the horse. Define and then transition to a 
standard environment and then provide the tooling to manage it. Trying to do it 
the other way around has taken years and too much stress.  The transition won't 
be easy but if there is a benefit it will happen - migration tools can then be 
created to take the installations current implementation and standardize it.

The *challenge* will be making sure that installations with special 
requirements, including ISV products, can be easily accommodated.


Lionel B. Dyck <><
Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com
Github: https://github.com/lbdyck

“Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you 
are, reputation merely what others think you are.”   - - - John Wooden

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:20 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and Mac 
machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training?  For example, I 
don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look in /etc and parms 
are in standard directories.  Even my Android (while
annoying) updates itself from time to time.

z/OSMF isn't the cure though.  System standardization might be, but that would 
still include IBM dictating how things are done.  We accept that on the other 
platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems.

On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:
> I have to disagree.
> 
> First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average 
> customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?
> Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to 
> actually perform?
> Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add 
> 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an 
> RSU level?
> 
> One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always 
> provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.
> 
> Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore.
> 
> Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else 
> IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.
> 
> But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe.  
> Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively
> 
> 
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
> Behalf Of Mike Schwab
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
> 
> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
> content is safe.
> 
> 
> On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice  wrote:
>>
>> People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the 
>> positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed 
>> very quickly (1
>> month)  What should IBM and us users be doing?
>>
>> 1. Making better use of existing tools?  Eclipse ?
>> 2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of
>> code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E -
>> just copy the libraries?)
>> 3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no
>> longer needed and could just be set to "default")
>> 4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl?
>> 5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ...
>> how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of
>> the definitions.  It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in
>> definitions.
>> 6. 
>>
>> Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction?
>>
>> Colin
>>
> Examine the current system,
> create a script to set the equivalent values for z/OSMF?
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send 
> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN 
> 
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> contain confidential, proprietary or non-public information. The information 
> is intended solely for the designated recipient(s). If an addressing or 
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> immediately and destroy this email. Any review, dissemination, use or 
> reliance upon this information by unintended recipients is prohibited. Any 
> opinions expressed in this email are those of the author personally.
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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw]

Charles,

Try this Share presentation. (Rather long URL. If problem just try searching 
for "PDSE member generations").

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjQ7oG7rJ3_AhXSTEEAHcKyBAsQFnoECBUQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fshare.confex.com%2Fshare%2F125%2Fwebprogram%2FHandout%2FSession17831%2FSHARE%2520Using%2520Member%2520Generations.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3AfII9eO3h_kXWAw7fhdTk
 

Lennie

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Charles Mills
Sent: 30 May 2023 04:05
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions

I'll bite: where is it hidden? 

CM

On Mon, 29 May 2023 21:28:50 -0400, Steve Smith  wrote:

>Yes, one of the "hidden secrets" of ISPF.  I use it a lot, but you kind 
>of have to be told it's there, and get used to it.  It's very clunky.

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Tom Brennan]

So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and 
Mac machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training?  For 
example, I don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look 
in /etc and parms are in standard directories.  Even my Android (while 
annoying) updates itself from time to time.


z/OSMF isn't the cure though.  System standardization might be, but that 
would still include IBM dictating how things are done.  We accept that 
on the other platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems.


On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:

I have to disagree.

First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average 
customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?
Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to actually 
perform?
Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add 
1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an 
RSU level?

One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always 
provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.

Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore.

Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else 
IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.

But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe.  
Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively


Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Mike Schwab
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice  wrote:


People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the
positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed
very quickly (1
month)  What should IBM and us users be doing?

1. Making better use of existing tools?  Eclipse ?
2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of
code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E -
just copy the libraries?)
3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no
longer needed and could just be set to "default")
4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl?
5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ...
how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of
the definitions.  It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in
definitions.
6. 

Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction?

Colin


Examine the current system,
create a script to set the equivalent values for z/OSMF?

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Lionel B. Dyck]

Your reasons are some of those that prompted the creation of PDSEGEN.


Lionel B. Dyck <><
Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com
Github: https://github.com/lbdyck

“Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you 
are, reputation merely what others think you are.”   - - - John Wooden

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Schmitt, Michael
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 9:59 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions

Lack of better member generation support is the reason that my team is still 
using PDS instead of PDS/E. We *like* the ability to easily retrieve previous 
and deleted versions of members from the PDS "gas".

(This is helped because we have a home-written ISPF panel that lets you 
display, search, filter, browse, compare, restore, and rename previous versions 
of members that are still in the PDS directory.)


Another reason is that the way the PDSE v2 member generation limit works is 
that it is a limit on every member. If you set it to keep 10, then it keeps 10 
generations of EVERY member, forever. But what if this is your main source 
library, were only a small fraction of the member have been changed in the last 
decade? 10 generations would be too many for the older members but not enough 
for the newer, more frequently changed members.

I opened an Idea for this: "Request to add more flexibility to PDSE Member 
Generations". Status is "Future consideration"
https://ibm-z-hardware-and-operating-systems.ideas.ibm.com/ideas/ZOS-I-2764


And another reason is that it isn't easy to create a data set that copies the 
attributes of a PDSE, because JCL LIKE doesn't copy the PDSE Version and 
MAXGENS attributes. I created another Idea related to this: JCL LIKE for PDSE 
Version and MAXGENS, also with status "Future consideration":
https://ibm-z-hardware-and-operating-systems.ideas.ibm.com/ideas/ZOS-I-2788



One final note: I have a suspicion that IBM has been eschewing enhancements to 
ISPF in favor of adding the functionality to File Manager instead.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Lionel B. Dyck
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 9:47 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions

True enough - and one more thing is that while IBM supports member generations, 
they DO NOT support them via JCL, dynamic allocation, or the majority of their 
utilities/tools. And don't even try to find them in zExplorer, ZOWE, or ZOAU 
(or is it ZAOU?).


Lionel B. Dyck <><
Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com/
Github: https://github.com/lbdyck

“Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you 
are, reputation merely what others think you are.”   - - - John Wooden

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Jay 
Maynard
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 9:44 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions

SMP used to do this, and ISTR SMP/E does as well.

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:34 AM Schmitt, Michael 
wrote:

> And IMS. MFS Formats have non-display and lower-case letters in the 
> member names.
>
> Such as:
>
> ."wACOV0
> 07ACCDEF
> 2F613650
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
> Behalf Of Steve Thompson
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 8:19 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions
>
> I may not have edited these posts correctly for this, but, I thought I 
> should point out that an IBM product does create "illegal" (per JCL) 
> member names. And that would be Netview.
>
> In years gone by I had seen member names that were really "odd"
> and found out that it was Netview that was creating them.
>
> So yes, an assembler programmer could do this and have done this, 
> because it has been done.
>
> Steve Thompson
>
> On 5/30/2023 12:11 AM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
> >
> > Can't an Assembler programmer using STOW create PDS members with 
> > names beginning with '+', '-', '0', 'π', ... just about anything?  I 
> > don't
> believe it's proper
> > for higher layers such as JCL to introduce syntactic restrictions
> harsher than
> > those of core layers.  The only member name prohibited is 8X'FF',
> indicaring
> > the end of a PDS directory.
> >
> > How do LM services accessible, e.g. through REXX support member
> "generations"?
> >
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send 
> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send 
> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>


--
Jay Maynard

--
For IBM-MAIN

Re: Two related member generation questions

[Schmitt, Michael]

Lack of better member generation support is the reason that my team is still 
using PDS instead of PDS/E. We *like* the ability to easily retrieve previous 
and deleted versions of members from the PDS "gas".

(This is helped because we have a home-written ISPF panel that lets you 
display, search, filter, browse, compare, restore, and rename previous versions 
of members that are still in the PDS directory.)


Another reason is that the way the PDSE v2 member generation limit works is 
that it is a limit on every member. If you set it to keep 10, then it keeps 10 
generations of EVERY member, forever. But what if this is your main source 
library, were only a small fraction of the member have been changed in the last 
decade? 10 generations would be too many for the older members but not enough 
for the newer, more frequently changed members.

I opened an Idea for this: "Request to add more flexibility to PDSE Member 
Generations". Status is "Future consideration"
https://ibm-z-hardware-and-operating-systems.ideas.ibm.com/ideas/ZOS-I-2764


And another reason is that it isn't easy to create a data set that copies the 
attributes of a PDSE, because JCL LIKE doesn't copy the PDSE Version and 
MAXGENS attributes. I created another Idea related to this: JCL LIKE for PDSE 
Version and MAXGENS, also with status "Future consideration":
https://ibm-z-hardware-and-operating-systems.ideas.ibm.com/ideas/ZOS-I-2788



One final note: I have a suspicion that IBM has been eschewing enhancements to 
ISPF in favor of adding the functionality to File Manager instead.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Lionel B. Dyck
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 9:47 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions

True enough - and one more thing is that while IBM supports member generations, 
they DO NOT support them via JCL, dynamic allocation, or the majority of their 
utilities/tools. And don't even try to find them in zExplorer, ZOWE, or ZOAU 
(or is it ZAOU?).


Lionel B. Dyck <><
Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com/
Github: https://github.com/lbdyck

“Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you 
are, reputation merely what others think you are.”   - - - John Wooden

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Jay 
Maynard
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 9:44 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions

SMP used to do this, and ISTR SMP/E does as well.

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:34 AM Schmitt, Michael 
wrote:

> And IMS. MFS Formats have non-display and lower-case letters in the
> member names.
>
> Such as:
>
> ."wACOV0
> 07ACCDEF
> 2F613650
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Steve Thompson
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 8:19 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions
>
> I may not have edited these posts correctly for this, but, I thought I
> should point out that an IBM product does create "illegal" (per JCL)
> member names. And that would be Netview.
>
> In years gone by I had seen member names that were really "odd"
> and found out that it was Netview that was creating them.
>
> So yes, an assembler programmer could do this and have done this,
> because it has been done.
>
> Steve Thompson
>
> On 5/30/2023 12:11 AM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
> >
> > Can't an Assembler programmer using STOW create PDS members with
> > names beginning with '+', '-', '0', 'π', ... just about anything?  I
> > don't
> believe it's proper
> > for higher layers such as JCL to introduce syntactic restrictions
> harsher than
> > those of core layers.  The only member name prohibited is 8X'FF',
> indicaring
> > the end of a PDS directory.
> >
> > How do LM services accessible, e.g. through REXX support member
> "generations"?
> >
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send
> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send
> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>


--
Jay Maynard

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Lionel B. Dyck]

True enough - and one more thing is that while IBM supports member generations, 
they DO NOT support them via JCL, dynamic allocation, or the majority of their 
utilities/tools. And don't even try to find them in zExplorer, ZOWE, or ZOAU 
(or is it ZAOU?).


Lionel B. Dyck <><
Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com
Github: https://github.com/lbdyck

“Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you 
are, reputation merely what others think you are.”   - - - John Wooden

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Jay 
Maynard
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 9:44 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions

SMP used to do this, and ISTR SMP/E does as well.

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:34 AM Schmitt, Michael 
wrote:

> And IMS. MFS Formats have non-display and lower-case letters in the 
> member names.
>
> Such as:
>
> ."wACOV0
> 07ACCDEF
> 2F613650
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
> Behalf Of Steve Thompson
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 8:19 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions
>
> I may not have edited these posts correctly for this, but, I thought I 
> should point out that an IBM product does create "illegal" (per JCL) 
> member names. And that would be Netview.
>
> In years gone by I had seen member names that were really "odd"
> and found out that it was Netview that was creating them.
>
> So yes, an assembler programmer could do this and have done this, 
> because it has been done.
>
> Steve Thompson
>
> On 5/30/2023 12:11 AM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
> >
> > Can't an Assembler programmer using STOW create PDS members with 
> > names beginning with '+', '-', '0', 'π', ... just about anything?  I 
> > don't
> believe it's proper
> > for higher layers such as JCL to introduce syntactic restrictions
> harsher than
> > those of core layers.  The only member name prohibited is 8X'FF',
> indicaring
> > the end of a PDS directory.
> >
> > How do LM services accessible, e.g. through REXX support member
> "generations"?
> >
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send 
> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
> --
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>


--
Jay Maynard

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Jay Maynard]

SMP used to do this, and ISTR SMP/E does as well.

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:34 AM Schmitt, Michael 
wrote:

> And IMS. MFS Formats have non-display and lower-case letters in the member
> names.
>
> Such as:
>
> ."wACOV0
> 07ACCDEF
> 2F613650
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Steve Thompson
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 8:19 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions
>
> I may not have edited these posts correctly for this, but, I
> thought I should point out that an IBM product does create
> "illegal" (per JCL) member names. And that would be Netview.
>
> In years gone by I had seen member names that were really "odd"
> and found out that it was Netview that was creating them.
>
> So yes, an assembler programmer could do this and have done this,
> because it has been done.
>
> Steve Thompson
>
> On 5/30/2023 12:11 AM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
> >
> > Can't an Assembler programmer using STOW create PDS members with names
> > beginning with '+', '-', '0', 'π', ... just about anything?  I don't
> believe it's proper
> > for higher layers such as JCL to introduce syntactic restrictions
> harsher than
> > those of core layers.  The only member name prohibited is 8X'FF',
> indicaring
> > the end of a PDS directory.
> >
> > How do LM services accessible, e.g. through REXX support member
> "generations"?
> >
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>


-- 
Jay Maynard

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Schmitt, Michael]

And IMS. MFS Formats have non-display and lower-case letters in the member 
names.

Such as:

."wACOV0
07ACCDEF
2F613650



-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Steve Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 8:19 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions

I may not have edited these posts correctly for this, but, I
thought I should point out that an IBM product does create
"illegal" (per JCL) member names. And that would be Netview.

In years gone by I had seen member names that were really "odd"
and found out that it was Netview that was creating them.

So yes, an assembler programmer could do this and have done this,
because it has been done.

Steve Thompson

On 5/30/2023 12:11 AM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
>
> Can't an Assembler programmer using STOW create PDS members with names
> beginning with '+', '-', '0', 'π', ... just about anything?  I don't believe 
> it's proper
> for higher layers such as JCL to introduce syntactic restrictions harsher than
> those of core layers.  The only member name prohibited is 8X'FF', indicaring
> the end of a PDS directory.
>
> How do LM services accessible, e.g. through REXX support member "generations"?
>

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Tue, 30 May 2023 09:18:48 -0400, Steve Thompson wrote:

>I may not have edited these posts correctly for this, but, I
>thought I should point out that an IBM product does create
>"illegal" (per JCL) member names. And that would be Netview.
>
Also Binder with the CASE(MIXED) option.


>So yes, an assembler programmer could do this and have done this,
>because it has been done.
>
Also prevalent in CMS, where it seems to be the poor man's "Security by 
Obscurity".

-- 
gil

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Shaffer, Terri]

I have to disagree.

First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average 
customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?
Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to actually 
perform?
Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add 
1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an 
RSU level?

One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always 
provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.

Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore.

Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else 
IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.

But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe.  
Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively


Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Mike Schwab
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice  wrote:
>
> People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the
> positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed
> very quickly (1
> month)  What should IBM and us users be doing?
>
>1. Making better use of existing tools?  Eclipse ?
>2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of
>code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E -
>just copy the libraries?)
>3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no
>longer needed and could just be set to "default")
>4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl?
>5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ...
>how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of
>the definitions.  It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in
>definitions.
>6. 
>
> Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction?
>
> Colin
>
Examine the current system,
create a script to set the equivalent values for z/OSMF?

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This email message and any attachments may contain confidential, proprietary or 
non-public information. The information is intended solely for the designated 
recipient(s). If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this 
email, please notify the sender immediately and destroy this email. Any review, 
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is prohibited. Any opinions expressed in this email are those of the author 
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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Mike Schwab]

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice  wrote:
>
> People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the positive
> sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed very quickly (1
> month)  What should IBM and us users be doing?
>
>1. Making better use of existing tools?  Eclipse ?
>2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of
>code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E -
>just copy the libraries?)
>3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no
>longer needed and could just be set to "default")
>4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl?
>5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ...
>how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of
>the definitions.  It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in
>definitions.
>6. 
>
> Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction?
>
> Colin
>
Examine the current system,
create a script to set the equivalent values for z/OSMF?

--
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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Colin Paice]

People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the positive
sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed very quickly (1
month)  What should IBM and us users be doing?

   1. Making better use of existing tools?  Eclipse ?
   2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of
   code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E -
   just copy the libraries?)
   3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no
   longer needed and could just be set to "default")
   4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl?
   5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ...
   how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of
   the definitions.  It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in
   definitions.
   6. 

Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction?

Colin

On Tue, 30 May 2023 at 14:16, Allan Staller <
0387911dea17-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> Classification: Confidential
>
> Agreed!
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Shaffer, Terri
> Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 12:34 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
>
> [CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust
> the sender, Don't click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing
> email, which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.]
>
> While I see where you went with your thought process, the mainframe I
> don't think will ever get to a windows or Android mentality.
>
> I mean I know IBM wants to make the mainframe less complex, but by design
> that can only go so far.
>
> For example, How many SMPE environments does a company have? How many
> Catalogs> How are the volumes laid out?  RES, DLIB, CATALOG, Paging, ETC...
>
> Can you sort of automate the day to day management, or operations, yes.
> Or how about how is maintenance applied, If I use your examples of
> windows/Android. Its live update, not sure that would fly in any company.
> And whats my backout if something doesn't work? Think of what you said,
> your reset your phone and started again.. H
>
> z/OSMF is the IBM forced method here, and they have taken a process that
> has worked for 25+ years,  like I want to copy the old config settings from
> a previous z/OS install.  Why should I have to re-invent that wheel every
> time I install z/OS?  I use to be able to do a serverpac in a few hours,
> now with the z/OSMF response time and issues, that isn't possible.
>
> I still like the option that was mentioned, 2 switches, Novice, which
> forces you do everything and advanced, which would allow me to bypass steps
> or under the cover processes, IBM is forcing!!  Its just like windows, when
> I select advanced install option.
>
> In a way I am glad I have only 7 more years left until retirement.  I love
> the mainframe and z/OS, but I avoid z/OSMF like the plague, I will only use
> it for z/OS installs only because I am forced too..
>
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Phil Smith III
> Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 12:38 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the
> content is safe.
>
>
> Jack Zukt wrote, in part:
> >The real problem, as I see it, is that drag and drop interfaces move
> >you away from the need to know what you are doing.
>
> That's the *goal*. Do you know what the Windows installer is doing?
> Android? iOS? No you do not, beyond the high-level "putting  in places"
> and "making it bootable". While it makes me nervous because, like you, I've
> been doing this for too long, most people see this as a good thing, and I
> can't really dispute it.
>
> In 1920, if you had a car, you understood air/fuel mixture, how to do oil
> and tire changes, etc. Most people don't now, and that's not a bad thing.
> Sure, occasionally they get stranded, but by and large, it Just Works.
>
> On the flip side, I was switching phones and the migration failed. I did a
> reset of the new phone and restarted it, and it worked the second time. Did
> I understand the process? No. Did I need to? No. Am I happy that I couldn't
> tell what failed? Not really, but, again, I really didn't need to. And
> 99.44% of people wouldn't care, as long as it worked the second try.
>
> and Colin Paice asked:
> >Would it help if we moved to standard configurations?
>
> That's the point I made before: with Windows, you're forced into a fairly
> standard configuration. With z/OS, it's a bit late (by almost six decades):
> sites aren't going to rearrange everything. For new installs (all handful
> of t

Re: SSHD terminates immediately with permission(?) problem

[Allan Staller]

Classification: Confidential

Things to check.
TCP Policy Agent
Other users of the poirt (as previously suggested).
OMVS segment for the affected user.
Public/Private keypair definitions and Permissions. SSH is (*VERY PICKY*) about 
file permissions.

I suggest the following reading (thank you Dovetail).
https://coztoolkit.com/docs/sftp/ssh_keys_part2_2012-06-19.pdf
https://coztoolkit.com/docs/sftp/ssh_keys_part1_2012-06-12.pdf

HTH,

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Wendell Lovewell
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 6:49 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: SSHD terminates immediately with permission(?) problem

[CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the 
sender, Don’t click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, 
which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.]

I've done something wrong that I can't identify, and now SSHD terminates 
immediately after starting.

I'm not getting anything helpful on the console or in the joblog.  But I am 
getting these msgs in syslog:

OMVSKERN SSHD3sshd[67174408]: error: FOTS1442 Bind to port 22 on :: failed: 
EDC5111I Permission denied. (errno2=0x744C7246).
OMVSKERN SSHD3sshd[67174408]: error: FOTS1442 Bind to port 22 on 0.0.0.0 
failed: EDC5111I Permission denied. (errno2=0x744C7246).
OMVSKERN SSHD3sshd[67174408]: fatal: FOTS1464 Cannot bind any address.

I've looked up the 7246 code:
JRPORTACCESSAUTH EQU 29254* User does not have authority to access 
this port.

OMVSKERN's is UID(0).  Has ALTER access to BPX.DAEMON.  Port 22 is not in use, 
per D TCPIP,,N,SOCKETS

None of the files in /etc/ssh had changed for 4 years, so I don't think it's 
there.  (I did set LogLevel to DEBUG3, which didn't help any.)

The only things I can think of that I might have messed up something with keys. 
 I did try some weeks ago to set up a certificate to bypass entering my 
password when using "ssh user@zos" and didn't get that to work.   And I did 
install a new CERTAUTH this week for the new IBM service requirement ("DigiCert 
Global Root G2"), 'tho I can't imagine that would matter.

Any suggestions would really be appreciated...I'm not much good with entering 
USS commands via a 3270 screen.

TIA,
Wendell

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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Steve Thompson]

I may not have edited these posts correctly for this, but, I 
thought I should point out that an IBM product does create 
"illegal" (per JCL) member names. And that would be Netview.


In years gone by I had seen member names that were really "odd" 
and found out that it was Netview that was creating them.


So yes, an assembler programmer could do this and have done this, 
because it has been done.


Steve Thompson

On 5/30/2023 12:11 AM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:


Can't an Assembler programmer using STOW create PDS members with names
beginning with '+', '-', '0', 'π', ... just about anything?  I don't believe 
it's proper
for higher layers such as JCL to introduce syntactic restrictions harsher than
those of core layers.  The only member name prohibited is 8X'FF', indicaring
the end of a PDS directory.

How do LM services accessible, e.g. through REXX support member "generations"?



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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Allan Staller]

Classification: Confidential

Agreed!

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Shaffer, Terri
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 12:34 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the 
sender, Don't click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, 
which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.]

While I see where you went with your thought process, the mainframe I don't 
think will ever get to a windows or Android mentality.

I mean I know IBM wants to make the mainframe less complex, but by design that 
can only go so far.

For example, How many SMPE environments does a company have? How many Catalogs> 
How are the volumes laid out?  RES, DLIB, CATALOG, Paging, ETC...

Can you sort of automate the day to day management, or operations, yes.  Or how 
about how is maintenance applied, If I use your examples of windows/Android. 
Its live update, not sure that would fly in any company.  And whats my backout 
if something doesn't work? Think of what you said, your reset your phone and 
started again.. H

z/OSMF is the IBM forced method here, and they have taken a process that has 
worked for 25+ years,  like I want to copy the old config settings from a 
previous z/OS install.  Why should I have to re-invent that wheel every time I 
install z/OS?  I use to be able to do a serverpac in a few hours, now with the 
z/OSMF response time and issues, that isn't possible.

I still like the option that was mentioned, 2 switches, Novice, which forces 
you do everything and advanced, which would allow me to bypass steps or under 
the cover processes, IBM is forcing!!  Its just like windows, when I select 
advanced install option.

In a way I am glad I have only 7 more years left until retirement.  I love the 
mainframe and z/OS, but I avoid z/OSMF like the plague, I will only use it for 
z/OS installs only because I am forced too..

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Phil Smith III
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 12:38 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


Jack Zukt wrote, in part:
>The real problem, as I see it, is that drag and drop interfaces move
>you away from the need to know what you are doing.

That's the *goal*. Do you know what the Windows installer is doing? Android? 
iOS? No you do not, beyond the high-level "putting  in places" and "making 
it bootable". While it makes me nervous because, like you, I've been doing this 
for too long, most people see this as a good thing, and I can't really dispute 
it.

In 1920, if you had a car, you understood air/fuel mixture, how to do oil and 
tire changes, etc. Most people don't now, and that's not a bad thing. Sure, 
occasionally they get stranded, but by and large, it Just Works.

On the flip side, I was switching phones and the migration failed. I did a 
reset of the new phone and restarted it, and it worked the second time. Did I 
understand the process? No. Did I need to? No. Am I happy that I couldn't tell 
what failed? Not really, but, again, I really didn't need to. And 99.44% of 
people wouldn't care, as long as it worked the second try.

and Colin Paice asked:
>Would it help if we moved to standard configurations?

That's the point I made before: with Windows, you're forced into a fairly 
standard configuration. With z/OS, it's a bit late (by almost six decades): 
sites aren't going to rearrange everything. For new installs (all handful of 
them), sure. But that doesn't really help at this point, alas.


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Re: Two related member generation questions

[Seymour J Metz]

To clarify, you must use the absolute dsn if you need to specify a member name 
*in the JCL* but you can use a relative generation to allocate a PDS[E] to a 
step that opens the GDS with DSORG=PO and processes individual members via, 
e.g., FIND, OPENJ.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Steve Thompson [ste...@wkyr.net]
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2023 8:07 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Two related member generation questions

Well, I had to go read this. Here is what it says in the DFSMS
Using Data Sets Manual (z/OS 2.5) SC23-6855-50:


Data set organization of generation data sets

Generation data sets (GDSs) can be sequential, direct, or
partitioned data sets. *If you use PDSs or PDSEs**
**as generation data sets and you want to reference a member, you
must reference the member using**
**absolute data set names rather than relative names.* This is
because MVS JCL does not support specifying
both a relative name and a member name. To access a member of a
generation data set that is a PDS or
PDSE using JCL, you must use an absolute generation name.

Example: When referencing a generation data set using JCL, it is
common to use relative naming, as
inA.B.C(0),A.B.C(+1), orA.B.C(-1). *If you want to access a
member of a PDS or PDSE, you**
**cannot use relative naming because there is no way to specify
the member name in JCL. You can refer**
**to aspecificmember of a PDS or PDSE that is a
generation data set by using absolute names such as**
**A.B.C.G0005V00(MEMBER)**, but JCL does not allow
specifyingA,B.C(+5)(MEMBER)**.*

Restriction:

• Generation data sets cannot be VSAM data sets.
• *Note* that only z/OS systems at the V2R1 level or higher
support GDSs that are PDSEs:
– If you run a mixed sysplex anddefinea GDS PDSE on a system at
the z/OS V2R1 level, but
issue an access method service LISTCAT command on a system at a
lower level, the command
output will displaySTATUS---UNKNOWNfor deferred and rolled-off
GDS PDSEs. In this case LISCAT
command output will not display the DSNTYPE line for that PDSE.
For an active GDS PDSE, the
LISTCAT command output on a z/OS system below the V2R1 level
displaysSTATUS--ACTIVEand no
DSNTYPE.

– If you roll-off an active GDS PDSE data set from a z/OS system
at the V1R13 level or lower, the GDS
PDSE becomes a rolled-off simple GDS. If you roll-in back the GDS
from a z/OS system at the V2R1
level or lower, it becomes an active GDS (not an active GDS PDSE).

In both these cases, the data set can still be used as a PDSE,
(it can be loaded with members) because
the PDSE indicator for the data set remains set.

Absolute generation and version numbers

An absolute generation and version number is used to identify
aspecificgeneration of a GDG. The
generation and version numbers are in the formGVyy,
whereis an unsigned 4-digit decimal
generation number (0001 through ) andyyis an unsigned 2-digit
decimal version number (00
through 99). For example:

• A.B.C.G0001V00 is generation data set 1, version 0, in
generation data group A.B.C.
• A.B.C.G0009V01 is generation data set 9, version 1, in
generation data group A.B.C.

While it is technically possible todefinean explicit generation
of GV00, such adefinitionis
discouraged because it can cause unpredictable results when
deleting generation data sets using relative
generations.

The number of generations and versions is limited by the number
of digits in the absolute generation
name; that is, there can be 9,999 generations. Each generation
can have 100 versions. To maintain
relative order when the highest generation is  and a new
generation is added, the new generation is
assigned a wrap flag. The wrap flag causes the new generation to
behave as if it had 10,000 added to it.
This causes the ordering to be correct when going from  to
0001. Note: the next higher generation
from  is not , it is 0001. When all of the generations in
the generation index have the wrap
flag set, the wrap flags are all turned off. For example if we
have a generation index with 3 entries, and
the generations are , 0001, and 0002, with 0001 and 0002
having their wrap flags on, the order
would be , 0001, 0002. If a new generation is created, 0003,
it also has the wrap flag set. The LIMIT
causes the  to be rolled off from the index. 0001, 0002 and
0003 all have the wrap flag set, so
the wrap flag is turned off for all three generations. The order
is still valid and is 0001, 0002, 0003. If a
generation exceeds 2000 generations from the current generation,
the wrap flag is not set. You should not
create large relative generation gaps which can lead to order
problems.

I think I get it. I think this might be done via SLCM trying to
keep generations of source(?) -- Pure guess.

Steve Thompson

On 5/29/2023 7:47 PM, Steve Thompson wrote:
> Charles:
>
> I think you ar

Re: Two related member generation questions

[Lionel B. Dyck]

As others have said - PDSE member generations are *not* generation data sets. A 
PDS or PDSE can be a GDS but the members are not. PDSE member generations 
provide similar functionality to a GDG in that the current generation has both 
a relative, and absolute, generation of 0. The prior generation has a relative 
generation of -1 and an absolute generation of from 1 to 2,000,000,000 (and 
note that if you reach the limit it does not wrap - at least the doc does not 
indicate it can wrap).

With ISPF prior to z/OS 3.1 you need ISPF library services to access generation 
- here is snippets copied from PDSEGEN (cbttape file 969 or 
github.com/lbdyck/pdsegen):
  
 "LMINIT DATAID(pdsegend) DATASET("pdsedsn")"  
 "LMOPEN DATAID("pdsegend") OPTION(INPUT)" 
 'edit dataid('pdsegend') member('mbr') gen('agen')'
 "LMClose dataid("pdsegend")"   

With z/OS 3.1 ISPF will have improvements to make it easier, still not ideal, 
for generations.

As for the zombie members that happens because both TSO DELETE, and ISPF member 
delete, only delete the base member (generation 0) and leave the generations 
alone. That is why with FileManager, the Review command (cbttape), and with 
PDSEGEN, you may see members with a relative generation of 0 and an absolute 
generation that is non-zero. PDSEGEN has its own delete process that supports 
deleting generations so zombies (or ghost members) will not happen. FileManager 
under 3.15, the workbench, also understands how to correctly handle generations.

Please vote for this IBM Idea (formerly RFE) 
https://ibm-z-hardware-and-operating-systems.ideas.ibm.com/ideas/ZOS-I-1565 - 
currently in a status of 'Future consideration' with 157 votes.

Hope this helps somewhat.


Lionel B. Dyck <><
Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com
Github: https://github.com/lbdyck

“Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you 
are, reputation merely what others think you are.”   - - - John Wooden

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Charles Mills
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2023 4:57 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Two related member generation questions

1. Is there any support in JCL or in ISPF for reading member generations? If I 
want to reference or browse a PDSE 2 member generation other than the latest, 
is it possible to do so? Am I just missing the doc somewhere?

2. Is this not an error or at least an illogical statement in the JCL 
reference? Under DSNAME - Cataloged data set name it says

dsname(member)
Specifies the name of the permanent partitioned data set (PDS) or the 
partitioned data set extended (PDSE), and the name of a member within that data 
set. If the member does not exist and DISP=OLD or DISP=SHR is specified, the 
allocation will succeed, but the job will fail when the data set is opened for 
input. If the member does not exist and the data set is opened for output, the 
system will add the member to the data set.

member
1 to 8 alphanumeric or national characters, or a character X'C0'. The first 
character must be alphabetic, national, +, or -. If the first character is + or 
-, the member is a part of a generation data group.

dsname(generation)
Specifies the name of a generation data group (GDG) and the generation number 
(zero or a signed integer) of a generation data set within the GDG.

That member description is not right, is it? If the first character is numeric, 
+ or -, it's not a reference to a member of a PDS or PDSE at all -- it 
specifies a generation data set, right? Or is this support for member 
generations and I am not reading it correctly?

Also, member syntax has nothing to do with whether the dataset is cataloged, 
right? The syntax is exactly the same with a VOLSER reference or for a 
temporary dataset, right?

Charles

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