Re: End of several eras
On Tue, Nov 22, 2022 at 01:40:47PM +, Seymour J Metz wrote: > My experience was that I had to read the fiche for things that should > be in the PLM and I had to read the PLM for things that should have been > in the macros or services manual. I read many a fiche when writing UCLA/IPC. https://cbttape.org/uclamail/uclamail.htm -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: End of several eras
Does anyone even have any of that fiche that was not tossed out? . This electronic mail (including any attachments) may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and/or otherwise protected from disclosure to anyone other than its intended recipient(s). Any dissemination or use of this electronic email or its contents (including any attachments) by persons other than the intended recipient(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by reply email so that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message (including any attachments) in its entirety. Thank you -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2022 7:41 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: End of several eras ObFicheInABarrel I found and reported two integrity errors in OS/360 from reading the fiche. That's in addition to relying on them for local modifications. My experience was that I had to read the fiche for things that should be in the PLM and I had to read the PLM for things that should have been in the macros or services manual. 0A0C -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of g...@gabegold.com [g...@gabegold.com] Sent: Monday, November 21, 2022 7:06 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: End of several eras Fiche was fun. Up to 370/148, microcode fiche was provided, including microcode problems. Browsing, I found one problem described as, "When LM instruction specifies same register twice -- that is, to load one register -- all 16 registers are loaded". Oops. And once, working on an interesting but stupid project that involved validating opcodes behaving properly (because management heard loony advice from an alleged industry expert that 4341 wouldn't be fully compatible architecture) several opcodes that shouldn't have existed did, didn't 0C1. Microcode fiche revealed that they were assist instructions for VS/1, etc. On Mon, 31 Oct 2022 23:46:40 -0500, Brian Westerman wrote: >I agree, I can't possibly convey how much I learned from some old IBM fiche that I had access to in the computer center when I just started college. The first really important thing I wrote (I was 17) were mods to pass the condition codes from step to step within JES2 and then send the highest one to the console and syslog at job end. I later learned that others had done the same thing, and long before me, but I learned a lot. That code didn't work with the first version of MVS I was exposed to after college, so it was followed by doing that same thing with two jes exits and then even later writing our companies Automation software that pulls the condition codes from the same fields they were placed in originally way back then. > >Everything I have written over the years is still based on concepts and techniques that I first learned by looking at the code in the IBM fiche. > >I had an extra advantage in that I worked for IBM throughout that same time and was able to see some truly spectacular coding techniques and I am truly thankful for that opportunity. > >I realize that IBM wanted to keep nefarious people from copying the code, but I think that we lost a great deal of experience and expertise when we lost access to the code. Some of those techniques are just not around for people to examine and learn from, and that's very sad. > >Brian > > > >On Mon, 31 Oct 2022 19:42:50 -0400, David Spiegel wrote: > >>Hi Tom, >>1983, eh? >>The same year as the (expletive deleted) OCO policy. >>I've seen IBM-lifers defend it on this forum, yet, it still did not/does >>not make sense. >> >>Regards, >>David >> > >-- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: End of several eras
ObFicheInABarrel I found and reported two integrity errors in OS/360 from reading the fiche. That's in addition to relying on them for local modifications. My experience was that I had to read the fiche for things that should be in the PLM and I had to read the PLM for things that should have been in the macros or services manual. 0A0C -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of g...@gabegold.com [g...@gabegold.com] Sent: Monday, November 21, 2022 7:06 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: End of several eras Fiche was fun. Up to 370/148, microcode fiche was provided, including microcode problems. Browsing, I found one problem described as, "When LM instruction specifies same register twice -- that is, to load one register -- all 16 registers are loaded". Oops. And once, working on an interesting but stupid project that involved validating opcodes behaving properly (because management heard loony advice from an alleged industry expert that 4341 wouldn't be fully compatible architecture) several opcodes that shouldn't have existed did, didn't 0C1. Microcode fiche revealed that they were assist instructions for VS/1, etc. On Mon, 31 Oct 2022 23:46:40 -0500, Brian Westerman wrote: >I agree, I can't possibly convey how much I learned from some old IBM fiche >that I had access to in the computer center when I just started college. The >first really important thing I wrote (I was 17) were mods to pass the >condition codes from step to step within JES2 and then send the highest one to >the console and syslog at job end. I later learned that others had done the >same thing, and long before me, but I learned a lot. That code didn't work >with the first version of MVS I was exposed to after college, so it was >followed by doing that same thing with two jes exits and then even later >writing our companies Automation software that pulls the condition codes from >the same fields they were placed in originally way back then. > >Everything I have written over the years is still based on concepts and >techniques that I first learned by looking at the code in the IBM fiche. > >I had an extra advantage in that I worked for IBM throughout that same time >and was able to see some truly spectacular coding techniques and I am truly >thankful for that opportunity. > >I realize that IBM wanted to keep nefarious people from copying the code, but >I think that we lost a great deal of experience and expertise when we lost >access to the code. Some of those techniques are just not around for people >to examine and learn from, and that's very sad. > >Brian > > > >On Mon, 31 Oct 2022 19:42:50 -0400, David Spiegel >wrote: > >>Hi Tom, >>1983, eh? >>The same year as the (expletive deleted) OCO policy. >>I've seen IBM-lifers defend it on this forum, yet, it still did not/does >>not make sense. >> >>Regards, >>David >> > >-- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: End of several eras
And it will never be known what OCO cost IBM, customers, and the industry in terms of customer contributions/fixes/innovations it prevented. In VM-land, where source was once complete, its progression was like a light on a dimmer switch slowly fading out. But that's an old, settled, war. Maybe someone will earn a PhD documenting it. On Mon, 21 Nov 2022 17:25:00 -0800, Michael Stein wrote: >On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 06:06:43PM -0600, g...@gabegold.com wrote: >> Fiche was fun. > >yes, definitely. > >I remember using fiche two versions back (save that old fiche) to help >make a fix in VTIOC (TSO/VTAM) hung users which couldn't be canceled. > >And telling OPEN/CLOSE/EOV the line number containing the change they >had made which broke my program (they said it explained a lot of other >things they had seen). > >Also a small one bit change to 3830 microcode to prevent channel >disconnect (the 3830 was connected to a 360/91 selector channel). >Along with this was a 360 program run at IPL time which sent the 3830 >a microcode program to zap the bit. > >I always wonder how gradual OCO really was since there was a lot >of old fiche around. But, I'd guess, gradually the fixes from the >field slowed down to a trickle. > >-- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: End of several eras
On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 06:06:43PM -0600, g...@gabegold.com wrote: > Fiche was fun. yes, definitely. I remember using fiche two versions back (save that old fiche) to help make a fix in VTIOC (TSO/VTAM) hung users which couldn't be canceled. And telling OPEN/CLOSE/EOV the line number containing the change they had made which broke my program (they said it explained a lot of other things they had seen). Also a small one bit change to 3830 microcode to prevent channel disconnect (the 3830 was connected to a 360/91 selector channel). Along with this was a 360 program run at IPL time which sent the 3830 a microcode program to zap the bit. I always wonder how gradual OCO really was since there was a lot of old fiche around. But, I'd guess, gradually the fixes from the field slowed down to a trickle. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: End of several eras
Fiche was fun. Up to 370/148, microcode fiche was provided, including microcode problems. Browsing, I found one problem described as, "When LM instruction specifies same register twice -- that is, to load one register -- all 16 registers are loaded". Oops. And once, working on an interesting but stupid project that involved validating opcodes behaving properly (because management heard loony advice from an alleged industry expert that 4341 wouldn't be fully compatible architecture) several opcodes that shouldn't have existed did, didn't 0C1. Microcode fiche revealed that they were assist instructions for VS/1, etc. On Mon, 31 Oct 2022 23:46:40 -0500, Brian Westerman wrote: >I agree, I can't possibly convey how much I learned from some old IBM fiche >that I had access to in the computer center when I just started college. The >first really important thing I wrote (I was 17) were mods to pass the >condition codes from step to step within JES2 and then send the highest one to >the console and syslog at job end. I later learned that others had done the >same thing, and long before me, but I learned a lot. That code didn't work >with the first version of MVS I was exposed to after college, so it was >followed by doing that same thing with two jes exits and then even later >writing our companies Automation software that pulls the condition codes from >the same fields they were placed in originally way back then. > >Everything I have written over the years is still based on concepts and >techniques that I first learned by looking at the code in the IBM fiche. > >I had an extra advantage in that I worked for IBM throughout that same time >and was able to see some truly spectacular coding techniques and I am truly >thankful for that opportunity. > >I realize that IBM wanted to keep nefarious people from copying the code, but >I think that we lost a great deal of experience and expertise when we lost >access to the code. Some of those techniques are just not around for people >to examine and learn from, and that's very sad. > >Brian > > > >On Mon, 31 Oct 2022 19:42:50 -0400, David Spiegel >wrote: > >>Hi Tom, >>1983, eh? >>The same year as the (expletive deleted) OCO policy. >>I've seen IBM-lifers defend it on this forum, yet, it still did not/does >>not make sense. >> >>Regards, >>David >> > >-- >For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
End of several eras
Soon here too. Company is going to 5 "platforms" that are all Wintel based. I've been here since Jan 1992. They have already upgraded the servers in both number and power. There is only one more thing left, and it looks like the end of 1 On Saturday, November 5, 2022, Radoslaw Skorupka < 0471ebeac275-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > Well... > Almost two years ago I lost my job after 22+ years. I started the installation from scratch, launched first Internet bank in Poland, then started another bank (still on the same mainframe, same owner), started multinational bank, converted to EURO as first bank in Slovakia... > And finally some guys decided to get rid off mainframe, migrate to Windows. Stupid? Oh yes... However after 8 years of the project I became an obstacle and two years after... they still did not even started the production. :-) However they bought new z15's and still they pretend this is the last one, just for a while. Yeah, I 've heard it when buying EC12... > > > -- > Radoslaw Skorupka > Lodz, Poland > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: End of several eras
Well... Almost two years ago I lost my job after 22+ years. I started the installation from scratch, launched first Internet bank in Poland, then started another bank (still on the same mainframe, same owner), started multinational bank, converted to EURO as first bank in Slovakia... And finally some guys decided to get rid off mainframe, migrate to Windows. Stupid? Oh yes... However after 8 years of the project I became an obstacle and two years after... they still did not even started the production. :-) However they bought new z15's and still they pretend this is the last one, just for a while. Yeah, I 've heard it when buying EC12... -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: End of several eras
There is still an optional source code feature for z/VM and its components. DJ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Shift work (was End of several eras)
Nothing to do with mainframe machines per se, but at various jobs I was assigned to second shift and found it suited me to the ground. I could sleep late, get up and get a leisurely lunch, wander off to work, work until late (I was always a night owl), then come back to my hotel room and watch TV for a while before going to bed when I felt like it. The only thing I missed was prime-time TV, and I didn't miss it much. I had a contract once with Bell Atlantic (this was back after Ma Bell was broken up but before competition took over) and because I typically worked late anyway they asked me to switch my hours and attend a daily software meeting on behalf of the department; I didn't have much to say, but I could listen and take notes and record any questions my boss would have to answer. It was a large meeting, with thirty or forty attendants crowding into the meeting room and a few dozen more calling in by phone, and the guy who ran the meeting was a master at keeping things on track and on-topic. Started at eighteen-something and ran for an hour or so. So I'd show up for work around eleven, stay until midnight or so, and relax the rest of the time. Not a very stressful job. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* Keep clear of concealment -- keep clear of the need of concealment. It is an awful hour when the first necessity of hiding something comes. The whole life is different thenceforth. When there are questions to be feared and eyes to be avoided and subjects which must not be touched, the bloom of life is gone. -Phillips Brooks (1835-1893) */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Carmen Vitullo Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2022 13:51 ...loved 3rd shift at the time -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: End of several eras
Love the stories, I graduated from Vo-tech as an RPG / COBOL programmer thinking I'd get a job easy as a programmer, not so, but a good learning experience as an operator they to production control, to now a sysprog. I started in 1977 working for a large retailer, no IMS but CICS , SII (Senden) or as I think it morphed into, connect direct and D3 (DataLink) to poll the stores for cash register data and send markdown and inventory data to the stores after that data was processed. loved 3rd shift at the time. As an operator if Senden came down we had a blue light that would come on in the computer room, blue light special, Monday early AM before the stores opened was the time to re calibrate the automated voice response system (Wavetech) system for the stores. so many stories good and bad. Carmen On 11/1/2022 12:35 PM, willie bunter wrote: I feel nostalgic after I read your post. Get this, I started in 1978 and I worked on an OS/360. I was an IMS DB/DC tech. running batch (via BMP) and batch jobs which updated the database. One problem I often encountered - the IMS/DC would abend because log tapes (dual logging) due to a STC tape drive (6250's) had a problem. IMS/DC had to stay down until I had to copied the log tape to another because the EOF was not written. The phones would be ringing off the hook because IMS/DC was down. Those were the days.amen. On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 05:50:37 p.m. EDT, Gibney, Dave <03b5261cfd78-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: I just shutdown our z/OS 2.3 system(s) for the last time. When I came to school in 1976, the computer was described as "loosely coupled 370s". My exposure was via remote cardreader/printer. When I started working here in 1981, there were still folks that had rewired boards for what they had before that. End of 2019, we moved from a 10 year old z9 to MFaaS with FNTS in Omaha. Dave Gibney Information Technology Services Washington State University -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Carmen -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: End of several eras
I feel nostalgic after I read your post. Get this, I started in 1978 and I worked on an OS/360. I was an IMS DB/DC tech. running batch (via BMP) and batch jobs which updated the database. One problem I often encountered - the IMS/DC would abend because log tapes (dual logging) due to a STC tape drive (6250's) had a problem. IMS/DC had to stay down until I had to copied the log tape to another because the EOF was not written. The phones would be ringing off the hook because IMS/DC was down. Those were the days.amen. On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 05:50:37 p.m. EDT, Gibney, Dave <03b5261cfd78-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: I just shutdown our z/OS 2.3 system(s) for the last time. When I came to school in 1976, the computer was described as "loosely coupled 370s". My exposure was via remote cardreader/printer. When I started working here in 1981, there were still folks that had rewired boards for what they had before that. End of 2019, we moved from a 10 year old z9 to MFaaS with FNTS in Omaha. Dave Gibney Information Technology Services Washington State University -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
[Public] RE: EXTERNAL: Re: End of several eras
I learned a lot from the CICS source code IBM distributed for years. I learned how to hash, build segmented tables, how to build linked lists, all techniques I incorporated in my programs to make them dynamic and resilient. Robert Crawford Mainframe Management United Services Automobile Association (210) 913-3822 “Nothing can be beautiful which is not true." John Ruskin Please send requests to mainframe management through our front door at go/mfmfrontdoor -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Brian Westerman Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 11:47 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: End of several eras I agree, I can't possibly convey how much I learned from some old IBM fiche that I had access to in the computer center when I just started college. The first really important thing I wrote (I was 17) were mods to pass the condition codes from step to step within JES2 and then send the highest one to the console and syslog at job end. I later learned that others had done the same thing, and long before me, but I learned a lot. That code didn't work with the first version of MVS I was exposed to after college, so it was followed by doing that same thing with two jes exits and then even later writing our companies Automation software that pulls the condition codes from the same fields they were placed in originally way back then. Everything I have written over the years is still based on concepts and techniques that I first learned by looking at the code in the IBM fiche. I had an extra advantage in that I worked for IBM throughout that same time and was able to see some truly spectacular coding techniques and I am truly thankful for that opportunity. I realize that IBM wanted to keep nefarious people from copying the code, but I think that we lost a great deal of experience and expertise when we lost access to the code. Some of those techniques are just not around for people to examine and learn from, and that's very sad. Brian On Mon, 31 Oct 2022 19:42:50 -0400, David Spiegel wrote: >Hi Tom, >1983, eh? >The same year as the (expletive deleted) OCO policy. >I've seen IBM-lifers defend it on this forum, yet, it still did >not/does not make sense. > >Regards, >David > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN USAA Classification: Public Disclaimer: This email and any attachments are the property of USAA and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure or copying of this email or any attachments is unauthorized. If you received this email in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete the email and any attachments from your computer. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: End of several eras
Back in the 7090 era I read the code for FAP, and it sorted the symbol table using a binary radix sort bearing the comment "This is the world's best known test of the sense indicators." I thought that the code was really slick, and these days I would have called it k3wl. The slickest thing that I saw in OS/360 was code testing successive bits using BXH and BXLE. Yes, access to assembly listing of the system made life much better. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Brian Westerman [brian_wester...@syzygyinc.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2022 12:46 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: End of several eras I agree, I can't possibly convey how much I learned from some old IBM fiche that I had access to in the computer center when I just started college. The first really important thing I wrote (I was 17) were mods to pass the condition codes from step to step within JES2 and then send the highest one to the console and syslog at job end. I later learned that others had done the same thing, and long before me, but I learned a lot. That code didn't work with the first version of MVS I was exposed to after college, so it was followed by doing that same thing with two jes exits and then even later writing our companies Automation software that pulls the condition codes from the same fields they were placed in originally way back then. Everything I have written over the years is still based on concepts and techniques that I first learned by looking at the code in the IBM fiche. I had an extra advantage in that I worked for IBM throughout that same time and was able to see some truly spectacular coding techniques and I am truly thankful for that opportunity. I realize that IBM wanted to keep nefarious people from copying the code, but I think that we lost a great deal of experience and expertise when we lost access to the code. Some of those techniques are just not around for people to examine and learn from, and that's very sad. Brian On Mon, 31 Oct 2022 19:42:50 -0400, David Spiegel wrote: >Hi Tom, >1983, eh? >The same year as the (expletive deleted) OCO policy. >I've seen IBM-lifers defend it on this forum, yet, it still did not/does >not make sense. > >Regards, >David > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: End of several eras
That's complicated. To begin with, even in the OS/360 days IBM did not provide source code for OS or DOS service that they distributed as object code, although they did provide microfiche of the assembly listings. CP-67 and later VM/370, of course, got service as source updates, as did HASP and ASP. Does anybody know whether TSS service included source. Theoretically you could update the optional source to include service changes in the microfiche, but that really wasn't practical, and AKAIK most installations relied on zaps. But the fiche was still a good way to fill gaps in the documentation. The launch of OCO (ptui!) was piecemeal; over time IBM dropped more and more code from the optional source and microfiche, and did not provide them at all for new components. As I recall, some optional source and microfiche was still available in 1983. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tom Brennan [t...@tombrennansoftware.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2022 2:10 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: End of several eras I had worked on PC's and Computervision graphic machines prior to 1983, and everything there was already OCO I think, so I didn't know any better when IBM went OCO. I rarely looked at the fiche, but it was really interesting to see PL/X (I think it was called) compiled into assembler code. I do remember one time where (with someone else's help) we found the cause of an error by looking at the fiche and reported it to IBM - with our own fix of course :) FYI: https://secure-web.cisco.com/1L0J3UPOYaof-tqaybpTvvUJmgIjikHRp1YdQuIjDvcOdWCtuV4kB9spBv8TmmSzRSWXGiIxYTCOsLxTYX3Ojqfc7cQ_9pNA8lq4Gq5oTnpEZRd1JmggvZSoUBV41SVHYqMOpIKtPJHI8OTn7zWlLGLJhAgdaSJNnc62rAcZo5TueNHuX5xBj7m6ser7Nj9YzZhCkKGhVmBzGG3DQqjESkT42CHWwitzn-r4BDQbVxzqgiKj9ZIhumoTHihmnQ1RvsQMOugq3Lixc0367yuuxMBMbyn4KYsOAl_POK3XrdujiuvvMRqOp-uMqyYuMzJkzoQ4o9V1uZabqPhxmJhLAS1wH2P1BIK1RLv6SBHTJVtx7xKRP8QgxTm97EYpXCjlrY_zEGjSlbjCPinF4XtBgdq5vx9iGYlAGBqlMsakvjfRCJkJwSok4FQVRRnGV3w3q/https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FComputervision On 10/31/2022 4:42 PM, David Spiegel wrote: > Hi Tom, > 1983, eh? > The same year as the (expletive deleted) OCO policy. > I've seen IBM-lifers defend it on this forum, yet, it still did not/does > not make sense. > > Regards, > David > > On 2022-10-31 19:31, Tom Brennan wrote: >> I get it... I just heard from an old co-worker that sometime this >> month they shut down the mainframe in Southern California that I >> worked on from 1983 to 2013. That was my first exposure to an IBM >> mainframe, and I think XA had just come out and people were busy >> fixing programs to work in AMODE 31. There was a rack full of MVS >> microfiche and a viewer at each desk. If we needed to send a dump to >> IBM we had to create a tape and carry it across the street to the mail >> room. >> >> On 10/31/2022 2:50 PM, Gibney, Dave wrote: >>> I just shutdown our z/OS 2.3 system(s) for the last time. >>> When I came to school in 1976, the computer was described as "loosely >>> coupled 370s". My exposure was via remote cardreader/printer. >>> When I started working here in 1981, there were still folks that had >>> rewired boards for what they had before that. >>> End of 2019, we moved from a 10 year old z9 to MFaaS with FNTS in Omaha. >>> >>> Dave Gibney >>> Information Technology Services >>> Washington State University >>> >>> >>> -- >>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>> >>> >> >> -- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: End of several eras
Hi Tom, That is one of the arguments for non-OCO. Customers would have the ability to suggest code improvement/fixes, much like Open Source today (which IBM schizophrenically) supports. Another IBM mistake was to not make PL/X (or PL/AS) publicly available. While I am mentioning IBM mistakes, the biggest ongoing mistake is to not allow z/OS to be run on any hardware other than which was licensed. Yes, I am familiar with the "our lawyers will not permit this" argument -- poppycock! The industry is screaming for fresh blood, yet, the golden goose is being starved. SMH. Regards, David On 2022-11-01 02:10, Tom Brennan wrote: I had worked on PC's and Computervision graphic machines prior to 1983, and everything there was already OCO I think, so I didn't know any better when IBM went OCO. I rarely looked at the fiche, but it was really interesting to see PL/X (I think it was called) compiled into assembler code. I do remember one time where (with someone else's help) we found the cause of an error by looking at the fiche and reported it to IBM - with our own fix of course :) FYI: https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FComputervisiondata=05%7C01%7C%7C9dfd073ea4474c70061c08dabbcfc0b0%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638028798269830521%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7Csdata=mMUmAGv0jBlnt5ML237RZCH7jEd5FDWlbJTROyDEo28%3Dreserved=0 On 10/31/2022 4:42 PM, David Spiegel wrote: Hi Tom, 1983, eh? The same year as the (expletive deleted) OCO policy. I've seen IBM-lifers defend it on this forum, yet, it still did not/does not make sense. Regards, David On 2022-10-31 19:31, Tom Brennan wrote: I get it... I just heard from an old co-worker that sometime this month they shut down the mainframe in Southern California that I worked on from 1983 to 2013. That was my first exposure to an IBM mainframe, and I think XA had just come out and people were busy fixing programs to work in AMODE 31. There was a rack full of MVS microfiche and a viewer at each desk. If we needed to send a dump to IBM we had to create a tape and carry it across the street to the mail room. On 10/31/2022 2:50 PM, Gibney, Dave wrote: I just shutdown our z/OS 2.3 system(s) for the last time. When I came to school in 1976, the computer was described as "loosely coupled 370s". My exposure was via remote cardreader/printer. When I started working here in 1981, there were still folks that had rewired boards for what they had before that. End of 2019, we moved from a 10 year old z9 to MFaaS with FNTS in Omaha. Dave Gibney Information Technology Services Washington State University -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: End of several eras
I had worked on PC's and Computervision graphic machines prior to 1983, and everything there was already OCO I think, so I didn't know any better when IBM went OCO. I rarely looked at the fiche, but it was really interesting to see PL/X (I think it was called) compiled into assembler code. I do remember one time where (with someone else's help) we found the cause of an error by looking at the fiche and reported it to IBM - with our own fix of course :) FYI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computervision On 10/31/2022 4:42 PM, David Spiegel wrote: Hi Tom, 1983, eh? The same year as the (expletive deleted) OCO policy. I've seen IBM-lifers defend it on this forum, yet, it still did not/does not make sense. Regards, David On 2022-10-31 19:31, Tom Brennan wrote: I get it... I just heard from an old co-worker that sometime this month they shut down the mainframe in Southern California that I worked on from 1983 to 2013. That was my first exposure to an IBM mainframe, and I think XA had just come out and people were busy fixing programs to work in AMODE 31. There was a rack full of MVS microfiche and a viewer at each desk. If we needed to send a dump to IBM we had to create a tape and carry it across the street to the mail room. On 10/31/2022 2:50 PM, Gibney, Dave wrote: I just shutdown our z/OS 2.3 system(s) for the last time. When I came to school in 1976, the computer was described as "loosely coupled 370s". My exposure was via remote cardreader/printer. When I started working here in 1981, there were still folks that had rewired boards for what they had before that. End of 2019, we moved from a 10 year old z9 to MFaaS with FNTS in Omaha. Dave Gibney Information Technology Services Washington State University -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: End of several eras
I agree, I can't possibly convey how much I learned from some old IBM fiche that I had access to in the computer center when I just started college. The first really important thing I wrote (I was 17) were mods to pass the condition codes from step to step within JES2 and then send the highest one to the console and syslog at job end. I later learned that others had done the same thing, and long before me, but I learned a lot. That code didn't work with the first version of MVS I was exposed to after college, so it was followed by doing that same thing with two jes exits and then even later writing our companies Automation software that pulls the condition codes from the same fields they were placed in originally way back then. Everything I have written over the years is still based on concepts and techniques that I first learned by looking at the code in the IBM fiche. I had an extra advantage in that I worked for IBM throughout that same time and was able to see some truly spectacular coding techniques and I am truly thankful for that opportunity. I realize that IBM wanted to keep nefarious people from copying the code, but I think that we lost a great deal of experience and expertise when we lost access to the code. Some of those techniques are just not around for people to examine and learn from, and that's very sad. Brian On Mon, 31 Oct 2022 19:42:50 -0400, David Spiegel wrote: >Hi Tom, >1983, eh? >The same year as the (expletive deleted) OCO policy. >I've seen IBM-lifers defend it on this forum, yet, it still did not/does >not make sense. > >Regards, >David > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: End of several eras
Hi Tom, 1983, eh? The same year as the (expletive deleted) OCO policy. I've seen IBM-lifers defend it on this forum, yet, it still did not/does not make sense. Regards, David On 2022-10-31 19:31, Tom Brennan wrote: I get it... I just heard from an old co-worker that sometime this month they shut down the mainframe in Southern California that I worked on from 1983 to 2013. That was my first exposure to an IBM mainframe, and I think XA had just come out and people were busy fixing programs to work in AMODE 31. There was a rack full of MVS microfiche and a viewer at each desk. If we needed to send a dump to IBM we had to create a tape and carry it across the street to the mail room. On 10/31/2022 2:50 PM, Gibney, Dave wrote: I just shutdown our z/OS 2.3 system(s) for the last time. When I came to school in 1976, the computer was described as "loosely coupled 370s". My exposure was via remote cardreader/printer. When I started working here in 1981, there were still folks that had rewired boards for what they had before that. End of 2019, we moved from a 10 year old z9 to MFaaS with FNTS in Omaha. Dave Gibney Information Technology Services Washington State University -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: End of several eras
I get it... I just heard from an old co-worker that sometime this month they shut down the mainframe in Southern California that I worked on from 1983 to 2013. That was my first exposure to an IBM mainframe, and I think XA had just come out and people were busy fixing programs to work in AMODE 31. There was a rack full of MVS microfiche and a viewer at each desk. If we needed to send a dump to IBM we had to create a tape and carry it across the street to the mail room. On 10/31/2022 2:50 PM, Gibney, Dave wrote: I just shutdown our z/OS 2.3 system(s) for the last time. When I came to school in 1976, the computer was described as "loosely coupled 370s". My exposure was via remote cardreader/printer. When I started working here in 1981, there were still folks that had rewired boards for what they had before that. End of 2019, we moved from a 10 year old z9 to MFaaS with FNTS in Omaha. Dave Gibney Information Technology Services Washington State University -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
End of several eras
I just shutdown our z/OS 2.3 system(s) for the last time. When I came to school in 1976, the computer was described as "loosely coupled 370s". My exposure was via remote cardreader/printer. When I started working here in 1981, there were still folks that had rewired boards for what they had before that. End of 2019, we moved from a 10 year old z9 to MFaaS with FNTS in Omaha. Dave Gibney Information Technology Services Washington State University -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
