Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
In 1367845369.9745.yahoomai...@web181401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com, on 05/06/2013 at 06:02 AM, Lloyd Fuller leful...@sbcglobal.net said: Actually, Univac played with it back in the 1960s/1970s. Any ternary logic or memory in the 1960's was probably implemented with discrete transistors rather than with IC's. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
Not sure. I was just talking one time to one of the military people that were involved with Univac and the university (Oregon State, I think). He mentioned that they had experimented with it. And from the time frame you are probably correct that it was transistors rather than IC's. Lloyd - Original Message From: Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) shmuel+...@patriot.net To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Sent: Wed, May 8, 2013 4:28:58 PM Subject: Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation? In 1367845369.9745.yahoomai...@web181401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com, on 05/06/2013 at 06:02 AM, Lloyd Fuller leful...@sbcglobal.net said: Actually, Univac played with it back in the 1960s/1970s. Any ternary logic or memory in the 1960's was probably implemented with discrete transistors rather than with IC's. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
In of2170d0c5.b3dd89d3-on85257b60.007023ab-85257b60.00711...@tsys.tss.net, on 05/03/2013 at 04:35 PM, Kirk Talman rkueb...@tsys.com said: But is the notation such that 1234567 = 1205.657Ki? ITYM 1205.631Ki. And how would one write the Mi value to as many places? foo = (foo/1048576)Mi; the division is a normal decimal division to as many poaces as you need. I am guessing that this is a kind of unnatural blend (cross-breed) between decimal and binary prefix notation. No; those units *are* binary prefix notation. For an unholy blend, look at givinf capacities in units of 1024000 :-( -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
In cajtoo5_ed5s0uqief8aytixs1-ey5fcda-_xcz3k3spqyjn...@mail.gmail.com, on 05/03/2013 at 05:22 PM, Mike Schwab mike.a.sch...@gmail.com said: When you build a memory chip, the input is X number of address bits, Hasn't anybody built ternary memory? Silly wabbit, trits are for kids. When you build a computer disk, you can to return any number of 512 byte sectors, Sectors? We don't need no stinking sectors. The IBM 1301, 1302 and 23xx disks did not have sectors. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
In 8d96815f-e298-46fd-9ef5-f3c53f0a1...@yahoo.com, on 05/03/2013 at 06:08 PM, Scott Ford scott_j_f...@yahoo.com said: I always used K, with the understanding it was 1024 I guess that you never programmed the CDC 6x00 and Cyber 70 machines, where they referred to 512 as octal K. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
In cae1xxdfkms1d9p+emdpioapnugq-rvtanjcvxo+uuz99r8s...@mail.gmail.com, on 05/04/2013 at 08:56 AM, John Gilmore jwgli...@gmail.com said: In situations of this kind the needs of the unlettered must come first. The word 'inflammable' does not mean 'cannot be set aflame'; some of the unlettered nevertheless sometimes judged that it did; the case for disambiguation, for using 'flammable' instead, was thus compelling; and the change was made. As Quine put the matter, Semiliteracy, however offensive, is not a capital offense. Sometimes it is, e.g., reading inflamable as nonflamable and lighting a match near an open container. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
Actually, Univac played with it back in the 1960s/1970s. I believe they were working with someone from OSU. As far as I know, they never marketed a product with it, but it was at least researched. Lloyd - Original Message From: Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) shmuel+...@patriot.net To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Sent: Mon, May 6, 2013 8:00:34 AM Subject: Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation? In cajtoo5_ed5s0uqief8aytixs1-ey5fcda-_xcz3k3spqyjn...@mail.gmail.com, on 05/03/2013 at 05:22 PM, Mike Schwab mike.a.sch...@gmail.com said: When you build a memory chip, the input is X number of address bits, Hasn't anybody built ternary memory? Silly wabbit, trits are for kids. When you build a computer disk, you can to return any number of 512 byte sectors, Sectors? We don't need no stinking sectors. The IBM 1301, 1302 and 23xx disks did not have sectors. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
The context-sensitive distinction between a kilobyte, 1000 bytes, and a kibibyte, 1024 bytes is, finally, a straightforward one, neither difficult nor arcane; and it is now required. When the computing community was small and composed of people having scientific educations it was gratuitous: context switching was easy for them: a kilometer was 1000 meters and a kilobyte was 1024 bytes. The IT community is now large and comprised of all sorts of people, most of whom are ignorant of its history and much else. A disambiguating distinction was necessary, and it has been made. In situations of this kind the needs of the unlettered must come first. The word 'inflammable' does not mean 'cannot be set aflame'; some of the unlettered nevertheless sometimes judged that it did; the case for disambiguation, for using 'flammable' instead, was thus compelling; and the change was made. As Quine put the matter, Semiliteracy, however offensive, is not a capital offense. John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
OK, I'll join in and beat this to death some more. g Not only is the IT community now larger and more unwashed, memory and disk sizes are larger. When people started using Kilo- to mean 1024 they were only off by 2.4%. But if you use mega- to mean 2**20 you are off by 4.86%, and if you use giga- when you mean 2**30 you are off by almost 7.4%, and so forth. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of John Gilmore Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2013 8:57 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation? The context-sensitive distinction between a kilobyte, 1000 bytes, and a kibibyte, 1024 bytes is, finally, a straightforward one, neither difficult nor arcane; and it is now required. When the computing community was small and composed of people having scientific educations it was gratuitous: context switching was easy for them: a kilometer was 1000 meters and a kilobyte was 1024 bytes. The IT community is now large and comprised of all sorts of people, most of whom are ignorant of its history and much else. A disambiguating distinction was necessary, and it has been made. In situations of this kind the needs of the unlettered must come first. The word 'inflammable' does not mean 'cannot be set aflame'; some of the unlettered nevertheless sometimes judged that it did; the case for disambiguation, for using 'flammable' instead, was thus compelling; and the change was made. As Quine put the matter, Semiliteracy, however offensive, is not a capital offense. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
On 5/2/2013 9:55 PM, Charles Mills wrote: The code is done LOL. Nope, no options. What you get is what you get. Customers are happy with it. I now have a need to be able to turn it OFF (not customer unhappiness; machine parsing: machines are happier with 7867543225 than with 7.86G). So now I need a name for it and for its negation. Writing an integer in full is referred to as canonical form, thus the shortened format would be a non-canonical form. You probably want something shorter, or easier for the non-specialist to understand. Gerhard Postpischil Bradford, Vermont -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
Charles Mills wrote: Or phrasing the question differently: Thanks for clarifying your need. You've got all of us in a corner in a rondavel! (round room) ;-D consider the integer 4560. It may be expressed as 4.56 x 10**7 or 4.56E7 in scientific notation; or as 45.6 x 10**6 in engineering notation; or as 45.6M in ___ notation; or as 4560 in _ notation. Can anyone fill in those blanks? What you can do is, say somewhere in your output what the scale of those numbers are 1000, 10 000 or whatever. 45.6 Million of whatever unit 45 600 000 units of whatever (liter/meter/kilogram/dollar, etc) Or simply 45.6 A and 45 600 000 B where you say somewhere in a footnote that A is million and B is unit x. On tables, graphs etc, there are sometimes a footnote showing in what units are these numbers. Say Year 2001 gave 10 and Year 2010 gave 100. (where numbers are shown in thousands/millions/etc) Science and mathematics have a format in that 9.999 times 10 to the power of y. There is always one digit to the left of the point. If you must use powers of ten (or other scale), you can write something like 10^2 or 10^6. It all depends on what you are showing and whether your readers of your software ca understand. Good luck! Groete / Greetings Elardus Engelbecht -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
Gerhard, Like a mangler ..aka manager ...lol Scott ford www.identityforge.com from my IPAD 'Infinite wisdom through infinite means' On May 3, 2013, at 2:10 AM, Gerhard Postpischil gerh...@valley.net wrote: On 5/2/2013 9:55 PM, Charles Mills wrote: The code is done LOL. Nope, no options. What you get is what you get. Customers are happy with it. I now have a need to be able to turn it OFF (not customer unhappiness; machine parsing: machines are happier with 7867543225 than with 7.86G). So now I need a name for it and for its negation. Writing an integer in full is referred to as canonical form, thus the shortened format would be a non-canonical form. You probably want something shorter, or easier for the non-specialist to understand. Gerhard Postpischil Bradford, Vermont -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 1:11 AM, Elardus Engelbrecht elardus.engelbre...@sita.co.za wrote: Charles Mills wrote: Or phrasing the question differently: Thanks for clarifying your need. You've got all of us in a corner in a rondavel! (round room) ;-D The farmer went crazy in the round barn. Why? He couldn't find a corner to piss in. http://www.semissourian.com/blogs/flynch/entry/4/ -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
Canonical! I like it: 3. authorized; recognized; accepted. 4. (of a mathematical equation, coordinate, etc.) in simplest or standard form. -- http://www.thefreedictionary.com/canonical INTFMT(CANON|SCALED) Thanks everyone for your help. Some more helpful than others. Might I humbly observe that some people here are more fond of posting their favorite answer than of reading the question? Why the obsession with kibi, mibi, etc.? (Rhetorical question -- no need to prolong the thread.) There are many, many examples of imprecision in our industry and our world. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Gerhard Postpischil Sent: Friday, May 03, 2013 2:11 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation? On 5/2/2013 9:55 PM, Charles Mills wrote: The code is done LOL. Nope, no options. What you get is what you get. Customers are happy with it. I now have a need to be able to turn it OFF (not customer unhappiness; machine parsing: machines are happier with 7867543225 than with 7.86G). So now I need a name for it and for its negation. Writing an integer in full is referred to as canonical form, thus the shortened format would be a non-canonical form. You probably want something shorter, or easier for the non-specialist to understand. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
Charles, Our absolutely right...a lot of mis impressions in this industry ...and lately because of the Net ..there seems to be a lot of no rtfm Scott ford www.identityforge.com from my IPAD 'Infinite wisdom through infinite means' On May 3, 2013, at 6:55 AM, Charles Mills charl...@mcn.org wrote: Canonical! I like it: 3. authorized; recognized; accepted. 4. (of a mathematical equation, coordinate, etc.) in simplest or standard form. -- http://www.thefreedictionary.com/canonical INTFMT(CANON|SCALED) Thanks everyone for your help. Some more helpful than others. Might I humbly observe that some people here are more fond of posting their favorite answer than of reading the question? Why the obsession with kibi, mibi, etc.? (Rhetorical question -- no need to prolong the thread.) There are many, many examples of imprecision in our industry and our world. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Gerhard Postpischil Sent: Friday, May 03, 2013 2:11 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation? On 5/2/2013 9:55 PM, Charles Mills wrote: The code is done LOL. Nope, no options. What you get is what you get. Customers are happy with it. I now have a need to be able to turn it OFF (not customer unhappiness; machine parsing: machines are happier with 7867543225 than with 7.86G). So now I need a name for it and for its negation. Writing an integer in full is referred to as canonical form, thus the shortened format would be a non-canonical form. You probably want something shorter, or easier for the non-specialist to understand. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
In 02c2a028-a177-4b92-b4d8-ac2f2d2f2...@yahoo.com, on 05/02/2013 at 09:16 PM, Scott Ford scott_j_f...@yahoo.com said: Ok guys ..I understand the science here but I learned a K = 1024 bytes Back in the 1960's people who used K when they meant 1024 unsderstood that they were misusing it. In the same epoch I also learned that K was 512, which was an even worse misuse. am I too old school . No; were you old schjool then you would use K as 1000 exclusively. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
In 51832b68.3090...@acm.org, on 05/02/2013 at 10:13 PM, Joel C. Ewing jcew...@acm.org said: The correct meaning of K (kilo) from its Greek origins was 1000. But, even before the PC weenies took over, K was used ambiguously in the computer industry and required one to understand the context conventions: At least by the 1960's and S/360 IBM officially (documented in manuals) used K to be 1024 when talking about binary-addressed memory and to be 1000 when talking about external storage, which was not binary addressed. For non-binary-addressed machines (like IBM 1620), K still meant 1000 for memory as well; and on a few machines where octal rather than hex notation was typically used for memory addresses I have even seen K used for 8^3=512 . PC folks didn't understand those conventions and made things even more confused by ambiguously using the 1024 definition in inappropriate contexts that did not involve binary addressing. Perhaps the absolute worst was the M=1024000 aberration. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
In 0b9601ce47ec$c6518bd0$52f4a370$@mcn.org, on 05/03/2013 at 06:55 AM, Charles Mills charl...@mcn.org said: Might I humbly observe that some people here are more fond of posting their favorite answer than of reading the question? You might, but it might be more useful to note that some people here are more fond of rhetoric than with accuracy. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
I am curious. I know and understand that 1234567 = 1234.567K = 1.234567M But is the notation such that 1234567 = 1205.657Ki? And how would one write the Mi value to as many places? And how are fractional parts handled in binary notation? The link below did not say. And the example about 1.44 MB diskette was not helpful. I am guessing that this is a kind of unnatural blend (cross-breed) between decimal and binary prefix notation. IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU wrote on 05/02/2013 02:31:45 PM: From: John Gilmore jwgli...@gmail.com See the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) website: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html - The information contained in this communication (including any attachments hereto) is confidential and is intended solely for the personal and confidential use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this communication in error and that any review, dissemination, copying, or unauthorized use of this information, or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail, and delete the original message. Thank you -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
IMHO xxbi scaled notation makes little sense except in the context of things that have a close relationship to integral powers of 2. It might be accurate to say my annual salary is 65.37 kibibucks (Ki$ ?) but it is hardly illuminating. Charles Composed on a mobile: please excuse my brevity Kirk Talman rkueb...@tsys.com wrote: I am curious. I know and understand that 1234567 = 1234.567K = 1.234567M But is the notation such that 1234567 = 1205.657Ki? And how would one write the Mi value to as many places? And how are fractional parts handled in binary notation? The link below did not say. And the example about 1.44 MB diskette was not helpful. I am guessing that this is a kind of unnatural blend (cross-breed) between decimal and binary prefix notation. IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU wrote on 05/02/2013 02:31:45 PM: From: John Gilmore jwgli...@gmail.com See the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) website: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html - The information contained in this communication (including any attachments hereto) is confidential and is intended solely for the personal and confidential use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this communication in error and that any review, dissemination, copying, or unauthorized use of this information, or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail, and delete the original message. Thank you -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 3:01 PM, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) shmuel+...@patriot.net wrote: In 51832b68.3090...@acm.org, on 05/02/2013 at 10:13 PM, Joel C. Ewing jcew...@acm.org said: deleted PC folks didn't understand those conventions and made things even more confused by ambiguously using the 1024 definition in inappropriate contexts that did not involve binary addressing. Perhaps the absolute worst was the M=1024000 aberration. From the 3.5 inch diskette? The first 3.5 inch diskette was 720KB, with 1440 sectors of 512 bytes for 737,280 bytes. The next one was Double Density labeled 1.44MB diskette with 2880 sectors of 512 bytes for 1,474,560 bytes. Divide by 1000 twice it should be 1.475MB. Divide by 1024 twice it should be 1.406MB. Only by dividing by 1024 once and 1000 once do you come up with 1.440MB. Kind of like mixing metaphors. (2010: Easy as cake (no), Piece of pie (no), It is Easy as pie, Piece of cake). -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
Shmuel, I always used K, with the understanding it was 1024 ...if you write assembler a base register used to cover 4K ,,4096 bytes it's all through IBM manuals as far as I know ...unless your doing baseless. Scott ford www.identityforge.com from my IPAD 'Infinite wisdom through infinite means' On May 3, 2013, at 3:58 PM, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) shmuel+...@patriot.net wrote: In 02c2a028-a177-4b92-b4d8-ac2f2d2f2...@yahoo.com, on 05/02/2013 at 09:16 PM, Scott Ford scott_j_f...@yahoo.com said: Ok guys ..I understand the science here but I learned a K = 1024 bytes Back in the 1960's people who used K when they meant 1024 unsderstood that they were misusing it. In the same epoch I also learned that K was 512, which was an even worse misuse. am I too old school . No; were you old schjool then you would use K as 1000 exclusively. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
When you build a memory chip, the input is X number of address bits, and you have to return 2 ** X number of unique storage bytes. If the next chip will allow 1 more bit, you have to hold twice as many storage locations. So memory chips *MUST* be a multiple of 2. Examples are 10 address bits, 1,024 locations. 20 address bits, 1,048,576. 30 address bits, 1,073,741,824 locations. When you build a computer disk, you can to return any number of 512 byte sectors, or 4096 byte sectors for newer drives. If you need to define it in terms of Cylinders, Heads, and Sectors, you round down to the next multiple. On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Kirk Talman rkueb...@tsys.com wrote: I am curious. I know and understand that 1234567 = 1234.567K = 1.234567M But is the notation such that 1234567 = 1205.657Ki? And how would one write the Mi value to as many places? And how are fractional parts handled in binary notation? The link below did not say. And the example about 1.44 MB diskette was not helpful. I am guessing that this is a kind of unnatural blend (cross-breed) between decimal and binary prefix notation. -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Scott Ford scott_j_f...@yahoo.com wrote: Shmuel, I always used K, with the understanding it was 1024 ...if you write assembler a base register used to cover 4K ,,4096 bytes it's all through IBM manuals as far as I know ...unless your doing baseless. 1 KM (kilometers) is 1024 M (meters)? -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
And, if you were offered a job that paid $100K, would you expect to receive $102,400? = = Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 18:08:28 -0400 From: scott_j_f...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation? To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Shmuel, I always used K, with the understanding it was 1024 ...if you write assembler a base register used to cover 4K ,,4096 bytes it's all through IBM manuals as far as I know ...unless your doing baseless. Scott ford www.identityforge.com from my IPAD 'Infinite wisdom through infinite means' On May 3, 2013, at 3:58 PM, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) shmuel+...@patriot.net wrote: In 02c2a028-a177-4b92-b4d8-ac2f2d2f2...@yahoo.com, on 05/02/2013 at 09:16 PM, Scott Ford scott_j_f...@yahoo.com said: Ok guys ..I understand the science here but I learned a K = 1024 bytes Back in the 1960's people who used K when they meant 1024 unsderstood that they were misusing it. In the same epoch I also learned that K was 512, which was an even worse misuse. am I too old school . No; were you old schjool then you would use K as 1000 exclusively. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
That would be nice ... Scott ford www.identityforge.com from my IPAD 'Infinite wisdom through infinite means' On May 3, 2013, at 6:51 PM, J R jayare...@hotmail.com wrote: And, if you were offered a job that paid $100K, would you expect to receive $102,400? = = Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 18:08:28 -0400 From: scott_j_f...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation? To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Shmuel, I always used K, with the understanding it was 1024 ...if you write assembler a base register used to cover 4K ,,4096 bytes it's all through IBM manuals as far as I know ...unless your doing baseless. Scott ford www.identityforge.com from my IPAD 'Infinite wisdom through infinite means' On May 3, 2013, at 3:58 PM, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) shmuel+...@patriot.net wrote: In 02c2a028-a177-4b92-b4d8-ac2f2d2f2...@yahoo.com, on 05/02/2013 at 09:16 PM, Scott Ford scott_j_f...@yahoo.com said: Ok guys ..I understand the science here but I learned a K = 1024 bytes Back in the 1960's people who used K when they meant 1024 unsderstood that they were misusing it. In the same epoch I also learned that K was 512, which was an even worse misuse. am I too old school . No; were you old schjool then you would use K as 1000 exclusively. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
But that K=1024 usage was ONLY because in the context of Assembler coding you were dealing with processor memory addresses in hardware instructions, and memory on the S/360 (and its successors) was addressed by binary values of 24 bits (later 31 bits). So the S/360 PoOp and ASM manuals, only in discussing memory addresses and blocks of memory, for brevity used K and M for close powers of 2. Those manuals were also very careful to explicitly state that was the convention being used -- precisely because it was not the conventional usage in other contexts, even within IBM and S/360 (like as Mike recently pointed out, for metric physical length measurements in IBM manuals, or for DASD). Other S/360 manuals which dealt with storage measurement in contexts other than processor memory or blocks of processor memory, most notably those having to do with DASD and DASD external storage capacity in bytes, used K and M with the conventional meanings of powers of 10. Somewhere along the line a confused notational convention became even more confused as succeeding generations failed to understand the underlying rational for the distinct conventions, and in some cases perhaps even failed to recognize there were two usage conventions. Usage also got further confused with FBA disk devices with capacity defined as n*b Bytes, where b was a power of 2 and n was not. Where b was 512, this made 1024 a convenient multiplier to use for K, but some also chose 1000*1024 as a more natural multiplier for M since the binary dependency ended at 2^9. ... and then you had a similar issue with describing capacity of Page Data Sets (and now also Linear Data Sets and PDS/E's) on CKD DASD, where the DASD architecture has no relation with binary but the physical blocks represent 4K processor memory pages, so you have a non-binary-related quantity of 4 KiB blocks. Those who understood the problem talked about resolving this confusion in various incompatible ways for over three decades before the binary prefix standard was finally adopted in 1998. Now if needed, we even have precise notation for 1000*1024 as KKi (which makes it more precise, but still aesthetically displeasing). Joel C. Ewing On 05/03/2013 05:08 PM, Scott Ford wrote: Shmuel, I always used K, with the understanding it was 1024 ...if you write assembler a base register used to cover 4K ,,4096 bytes it's all through IBM manuals as far as I know ...unless your doing baseless. Scott ford www.identityforge.com from my IPAD 'Infinite wisdom through infinite means' On May 3, 2013, at 3:58 PM, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) shmuel+...@patriot.net wrote: In 02c2a028-a177-4b92-b4d8-ac2f2d2f2...@yahoo.com, on 05/02/2013 at 09:16 PM, Scott Ford scott_j_f...@yahoo.com said: Ok guys ..I understand the science here but I learned a K = 1024 bytes Back in the 1960's people who used K when they meant 1024 unsderstood that they were misusing it. In the same epoch I also learned that K was 512, which was an even worse misuse. am I too old school . No; were you old schjool then you would use K as 1000 exclusively. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- Joel C. Ewing,Bentonville, AR jcew...@acm.org -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
This question has nothing to do with mainframes (other than that I am trying to name an option for a mainframe program) but I know there are some ultra-precise word jockeys here. What is the correct term for K, M or G type notation? If I had integers 1234 and 456, what would you call it if they were formatted as 1.234K and 4.56M? OTOH, what would be the contrasting term for normal notation: 1234 and 456? What would you call a program option to do things one way or the other? I want __ notation output or __ notation output. It's effectively a kind of floating point notation, but is there a more precise term? Thanks all, Charles -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
K is ISO for Kilo meaning times 1000. Ki is ISO for Kibi meaning times 1024 ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_prefix http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_8 http://www.nist.gov/pml/pubs/sp330/index.cfm http://www.nist.gov/pml/pubs/sp811/index.cfm On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 10:57 AM, Charles Mills charl...@mcn.org wrote: This question has nothing to do with mainframes (other than that I am trying to name an option for a mainframe program) but I know there are some ultra-precise word jockeys here. What is the correct term for K, M or G type notation? If I had integers 1234 and 456, what would you call it if they were formatted as 1.234K and 4.56M? OTOH, what would be the contrasting term for normal notation: 1234 and 456? What would you call a program option to do things one way or the other? I want __ notation output or __ notation output. It's effectively a kind of floating point notation, but is there a more precise term? Thanks all, Charles -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- This is a test of the Emergency Broadcast System. If this had been an actual emergency, do you really think we'd stick around to tell you? Maranatha! John McKown -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
Charles Mills wrote: ...ultra-precise word jockeys here. ...have already discussed 1001 times on IBM-MAIN and posted/refered in IBM-MAIN this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_prefix#IEC_standard_prefixes There you will learn about kibi and friends. Enjoy. ;-) Groete / Greetings Elardus Engelbrecht -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
Perhaps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_prefix will answer your question. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Charles Mills Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 11:58 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: OT - What is the proper term for K notation? This question has nothing to do with mainframes (other than that I am trying to name an option for a mainframe program) but I know there are some ultra-precise word jockeys here. What is the correct term for K, M or G type notation? If I had integers 1234 and 456, what would you call it if they were formatted as 1.234K and 4.56M? OTOH, what would be the contrasting term for normal notation: 1234 and 456? What would you call a program option to do things one way or the other? I want __ notation output or __ notation output. It's effectively a kind of floating point notation, but is there a more precise term? Thanks all, Charles -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
No, no one is answering the question I tried to ask. Sorry if I was unclear. I am NOT asking what is the difference between kilo and kibi? or is it right to refer to 1024 as 1K? or anything like that. I am asking what you CALL that KIND of notation. If my program outputs numbers as 1234 and 456 but your program outputs the same values as 1.234K and 4.56M, what would you call the *format* that your program uses? Your program outputs numbers in __ notation. Mine OTOH outputs numbers in _ notation. Perhaps powers of 1000 notation. Any term more compact than that that could be used as a control statement option? Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Elardus Engelbrecht Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 12:21 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation? Charles Mills wrote: ...ultra-precise word jockeys here. ...have already discussed 1001 times on IBM-MAIN and posted/refered in IBM-MAIN this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_prefix#IEC_standard_prefixes There you will learn about kibi and friends. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
Or phrasing the question differently: consider the integer 4560. It may be expressed as 4.56 x 10**7 or 4.56E7 in scientific notation; or as 45.6 x 10**6 in engineering notation; or as 45.6M in ___ notation; or as 4560 in _ notation. Can anyone fill in those blanks? Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Charles Mills Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 1:24 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation? No, no one is answering the question I tried to ask. Sorry if I was unclear. I am NOT asking what is the difference between kilo and kibi? or is it right to refer to 1024 as 1K? or anything like that. I am asking what you CALL that KIND of notation. If my program outputs numbers as 1234 and 456 but your program outputs the same values as 1.234K and 4.56M, what would you call the *format* that your program uses? Your program outputs numbers in __ notation. Mine OTOH outputs numbers in _ notation. Perhaps powers of 1000 notation. Any term more compact than that that could be used as a control statement option? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
See the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) website: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html They are called binary and decimal prefixes (sic). The more commonly used, (10^3)^n, notation is formally called SI decimal-prefix notation. The binary, (2^3)^n, notation is called IEC binary prefix-notation. IEC will shortly become SI too. Strictly speaking nude values like 1.234K are not well formed. They specify a magnitude but not a unit, kilobyte or kibibyte, kilocalorie or kibicalorie, kilogram or kibigram, kilometer or kibimeter, etc., etc. John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
K, Ki, are scaling factors, therefore I would call that type of formatting scaled format. I expect most people would understand what I meant. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Charles Mills Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 1:24 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation? No, no one is answering the question I tried to ask. Sorry if I was unclear. I am NOT asking what is the difference between kilo and kibi? or is it right to refer to 1024 as 1K? or anything like that. I am asking what you CALL that KIND of notation. If my program outputs numbers as 1234 and 456 but your program outputs the same values as 1.234K and 4.56M, what would you call the *format* that your program uses? Your program outputs numbers in __ notation. Mine OTOH outputs numbers in _ notation. Perhaps powers of 1000 notation. Any term more compact than that that could be used as a control statement option? Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Elardus Engelbrecht Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 12:21 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation? Charles Mills wrote: ...ultra-precise word jockeys here. ...have already discussed 1001 times on IBM-MAIN and posted/refered in IBM-MAIN this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_prefix#IEC_standard_prefixes There you will learn about kibi and friends. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
ITYM: (2^10)^n, notation = = Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 14:31:45 -0400 From: jwgli...@gmail.com Subject: Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation? To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU See the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) website: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html They are called binary and decimal prefixes (sic). The more commonly used, (10^3)^n, notation is formally called SI decimal-prefix notation. The binary, (2^3)^n, notation is called IEC binary prefix-notation. IEC will shortly become SI too. Strictly speaking nude values like 1.234K are not well formed. They specify a magnitude but not a unit, kilobyte or kibibyte, kilocalorie or kibicalorie, kilogram or kibigram, kilometer or kibimeter, etc., etc. John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
On 2 May 2013 14:31, John Gilmore jwgli...@gmail.com wrote: Strictly speaking nude values like 1.234K are not well formed. They specify a magnitude but not a unit, kilobyte or kibibyte, kilocalorie or kibicalorie, kilogram or kibigram, kilometer or kibimeter, etc., etc. To the question 'If I had integers 1234 and 456, what would you call it if they were formatted as 1.234K and 4.56M?', I was about to say broken or wrong. But nude expresses the notation and its problem perfectly, and I recommend it with only a small :-) needed. To 'OTOH, what would be the contrasting term for normal notation: 1234 and 456?', I would say simply decimal, though that of course runs the risk of being taken as being in opposition to binary or hexadecimal (or any number of other less likely bases). There are two other aspects that may bear thinking about: The letters K and M are not universally understood to be either of (10**3 and 10**6) or (2**10 and 2**20). In particular, financial people and executive types to this day often use M to mean thousand, and use MM for million. Doubtless these derive from Roman numerals (though MM would be 2000), but like the Romans they are not quite dead yet, and if it really matters you should probably avoid them.* If you want names for your notations, you should consider also precision and rounding. Perhaps your program will just do what it perceives to be the sensible thing, but once you give users the choice by some keyword of 1.234K vs 1234, when should they expect 1.2340K vs 1.23K or even 1K? Tony H. * There are actually three overlapping and incompatible schemes used for money: that used by accountants and other money men, that used by engineers and other technical people, and that used by tabloid newspapers in headlines: SI Financial TabloidMultiplier k (kilo)M (Roman) G (grand) 10**3 M (mega)MM (Roman) M (million)10**6 G (giga)MMM (rare) B (billion)10**9 T (tera)- Tr (trillion) 10**12 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
I get it. The question is not about what scaling factor is being specified, or even the name of a specific measurement units designation, but a more general-level question of what kind of name would one give to the concept of a scaled number representation like 23.5K or 23.6M, if for example you were writing a computer output routine to print a number in that format, rather than printing it as an integer format, or a fixed point value format, or floating point value with exponent format. Perhaps you could just call it a scaled integer value where M is an indication of scaling factor, but I can't recall ever hearing someone attempt to give such an external notation a formal name. The usage of M in a context like MB is as a prefix, and the standards of which I am aware only formally define its usage when combined with a unit of measurement, not stand-alone. The latter format (4560) I would simply call integer or possibly unscaled integer if the other is called scaled. The term scaled integer does appear in the context of some languages like COBOL, but it applies to the implied 10**n multiplier in an internal data representation, not to scaling specific to input or output of values. One can certainly find examples of applications, particularly in the interactive world, where output values are dynamically scaled so as to display the most significant digits while still using a limited number of characters as the values get increasingly large: as in displaying 900 B as 900 B, but 212,123 B as 212.1 KB, 616,212,123 B as 616.2MB, etc.. It would make sense to be able to generalize such a numeric format in the absence of a specific measurement unit, but I'm not sure what I would call it other than dynamically scaled integer. There surely must a programming language somewhere with direct support for such an output format. I'm just not personally aware of any. Joel C. Ewing On 05/02/2013 12:34 PM, Charles Mills wrote: Or phrasing the question differently: consider the integer 4560. It may be expressed as 4.56 x 10**7 or 4.56E7 in scientific notation; or as 45.6 x 10**6 in engineering notation; or as 45.6M in ___ notation; or as 4560 in _ notation. Can anyone fill in those blanks? Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Charles Mills Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 1:24 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation? No, no one is answering the question I tried to ask. Sorry if I was unclear. I am NOT asking what is the difference between kilo and kibi? or is it right to refer to 1024 as 1K? or anything like that. I am asking what you CALL that KIND of notation. If my program outputs numbers as 1234 and 456 but your program outputs the same values as 1.234K and 4.56M, what would you call the *format* that your program uses? Your program outputs numbers in __ notation. Mine OTOH outputs numbers in _ notation. Perhaps powers of 1000 notation. Any term more compact than that that could be used as a control statement option? -- Joel C. Ewing,Bentonville, AR jcew...@acm.org -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
You do get it! g Your second sentence is a perfect exposition of what I was trying to ask. Your last paragraph is a perfect exposition of the problem I am solving with the K notation. Thanks all, especially JG. Scaled seems to be pretty good. Not sure what the opposite is? NoScaled? Unscaled? INTFMT(SCALED|NOSCALED) Decimal does not really cut it because it's base ten in any event, and a decimal point is absent in any event. Binary would be confusing, I think. I hear the people complaining about nudity (ahem) but the units are already specified. Giving an example, devoid here of all context BytesIn = 25.7K, BytesOut = 286.4M Yeah, I suppose it might say just plain In = 25.7KB, but, as we say, the program doesn't work that way. (Also, due to other constraints it MUST appear in a string format message, not in tabular form like most mainframe reports.) And yes, I am doing it with my own code -- there is no built-in support in the language I am using (C++). Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel C. Ewing Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 3:30 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation? I get it. The question is not about what scaling factor is being specified, or even the name of a specific measurement units designation, but a more general-level question of what kind of name would one give to the concept of a scaled number representation like 23.5K or 23.6M, if for example you were writing a computer output routine to print a number in that format, rather than printing it as an integer format, or a fixed point value format, or floating point value with exponent format. Perhaps you could just call it a scaled integer value where M is an indication of scaling factor, but I can't recall ever hearing someone attempt to give such an external notation a formal name. The usage of M in a context like MB is as a prefix, and the standards of which I am aware only formally define its usage when combined with a unit of measurement, not stand-alone. The latter format (4560) I would simply call integer or possibly unscaled integer if the other is called scaled. The term scaled integer does appear in the context of some languages like COBOL, but it applies to the implied 10**n multiplier in an internal data representation, not to scaling specific to input or output of values. One can certainly find examples of applications, particularly in the interactive world, where output values are dynamically scaled so as to display the most significant digits while still using a limited number of characters as the values get increasingly large: as in displaying 900 B as 900 B, but 212,123 B as 212.1 KB, 616,212,123 B as 616.2MB, etc.. It would make sense to be able to generalize such a numeric format in the absence of a specific measurement unit, but I'm not sure what I would call it other than dynamically scaled integer. There surely must a programming language somewhere with direct support for such an output format. I'm just not personally aware of any. Joel C. Ewing -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
'Scaled', 'scaling', and their cognates have a long history in computing. Packed-decimal arithmetic results are scaled programmatically in compiled COBOL code. In assembly language, on the other hand, all packed-decimal arithmetic is integer arithmetic. The programmer who uses it for fixed-point computations must scale outcomes himself. He must, that is, keep track of the decimal points in results himself. The same things are tgrue mutatis mutandis for binary points in binary-fixed arithmetic. Fletcher Jones, the founder of the Computer Science Corporation and its leader when it was an important technical force in the industry, had the habit of delivering a well-honed exposition of what he called the lost art of scaling with little or no encouragement. (I did of course mean 2^10 = 1024 and10^3 = 1000.) John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
On May 2, 2013, at 3:08 PM, Charles Mills wrote: You do get it! g Your second sentence is a perfect exposition of what I was trying to ask. Your last paragraph is a perfect exposition of the problem I am solving with the K notation. Thanks all, especially JG. Scaled seems to be pretty good. Not sure what the opposite is? NoScaled? Unscaled? live fish?:) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
On 5/2/2013 4:08 PM, Charles Mills wrote: Yeah, I suppose it might say just plain In = 25.7KB, but, as we say, the program doesn't work that way. (Also, due to other constraints it MUST appear in a string format message, not in tabular form like most mainframe reports.) This reminds me of G format in ForTran, although that accepts only reals. But I don't recall if they had a special name for it. And yes, I am doing it with my own code -- there is no built-in support in the language I am using (C++). It may be easier to write the code than to arrive at a name for it g. And you never mentioned whether you want truncation, rounding, banker's rounding, or ? Gerhard Postpischil Bradford, Vermont -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
In 0a4a01ce474d$c93942b0$5babc810$@mcn.org, on 05/02/2013 at 11:57 AM, Charles Mills charl...@mcn.org said: What is the correct term for K, M or G type notation? IEC prefixes or IEC decimal prefixes if you need to distinguish them from Ki, Mi, Gi et al. OTOH, what would be the contrasting term for normal notation: 1234 and 456? Unabbreviated? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
Ok guys ..I understand the science here but I learned a K = 1024 bytes not 1000 ...am I too old school . Scott ford www.identityforge.com from my IPAD 'Infinite wisdom through infinite means' On May 2, 2013, at 4:08 PM, Charles Mills charl...@mcn.org wrote: You do get it! g Your second sentence is a perfect exposition of what I was trying to ask. Your last paragraph is a perfect exposition of the problem I am solving with the K notation. Thanks all, especially JG. Scaled seems to be pretty good. Not sure what the opposite is? NoScaled? Unscaled? INTFMT(SCALED|NOSCALED) Decimal does not really cut it because it's base ten in any event, and a decimal point is absent in any event. Binary would be confusing, I think. I hear the people complaining about nudity (ahem) but the units are already specified. Giving an example, devoid here of all context BytesIn = 25.7K, BytesOut = 286.4M Yeah, I suppose it might say just plain In = 25.7KB, but, as we say, the program doesn't work that way. (Also, due to other constraints it MUST appear in a string format message, not in tabular form like most mainframe reports.) And yes, I am doing it with my own code -- there is no built-in support in the language I am using (C++). Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Joel C. Ewing Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 3:30 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation? I get it. The question is not about what scaling factor is being specified, or even the name of a specific measurement units designation, but a more general-level question of what kind of name would one give to the concept of a scaled number representation like 23.5K or 23.6M, if for example you were writing a computer output routine to print a number in that format, rather than printing it as an integer format, or a fixed point value format, or floating point value with exponent format. Perhaps you could just call it a scaled integer value where M is an indication of scaling factor, but I can't recall ever hearing someone attempt to give such an external notation a formal name. The usage of M in a context like MB is as a prefix, and the standards of which I am aware only formally define its usage when combined with a unit of measurement, not stand-alone. The latter format (4560) I would simply call integer or possibly unscaled integer if the other is called scaled. The term scaled integer does appear in the context of some languages like COBOL, but it applies to the implied 10**n multiplier in an internal data representation, not to scaling specific to input or output of values. One can certainly find examples of applications, particularly in the interactive world, where output values are dynamically scaled so as to display the most significant digits while still using a limited number of characters as the values get increasingly large: as in displaying 900 B as 900 B, but 212,123 B as 212.1 KB, 616,212,123 B as 616.2MB, etc.. It would make sense to be able to generalize such a numeric format in the absence of a specific measurement unit, but I'm not sure what I would call it other than dynamically scaled integer. There surely must a programming language somewhere with direct support for such an output format. I'm just not personally aware of any. Joel C. Ewing -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation?
The code is done LOL. Nope, no options. What you get is what you get. Customers are happy with it. I now have a need to be able to turn it OFF (not customer unhappiness; machine parsing: machines are happier with 7867543225 than with 7.86G). So now I need a name for it and for its negation. Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Gerhard Postpischil Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2013 5:45 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: OT - What is the proper term for K notation? On 5/2/2013 4:08 PM, Charles Mills wrote: Yeah, I suppose it might say just plain In = 25.7KB, but, as we say, the program doesn't work that way. (Also, due to other constraints it MUST appear in a string format message, not in tabular form like most mainframe reports.) This reminds me of G format in ForTran, although that accepts only reals. But I don't recall if they had a special name for it. And yes, I am doing it with my own code -- there is no built-in support in the language I am using (C++). It may be easier to write the code than to arrive at a name for it g. And you never mentioned whether you want truncation, rounding, banker's rounding, or ? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
