Re: IBM Destination z - Of Elephants and Mainframes
[Default] On 7 Aug 2019 09:45:51 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main sme...@gmu.edu (Seymour J Metz) wrote: >Some nits: > > 1. I doubt that much was written in machine language in 1955, although > assemblers were >primitive by today's standards. > > 2. Many Share projects maintained mods tapes in the 1970s, and it would be > appropriate >to mention some of the maintainers by name. As I recall, Romney White > maintained the VM mods tape, but there were many others. > > 3. Surely the "Paddle project" is worthy of mention. The Michmods tape, Jim Marshals collection of "NIH" software including XEBCOPY and the Goddard mods and "The Wooden Paddle" publications are the ones I used in the 1970s. I also contributed my updates to some of the mods to Michmods tapes (1979, I think) as the WEJ mods. Clark Morris -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM Destination z - Of Elephants and Mainframes
Some nits: 1. I doubt that much was written in machine language in 1955, although assemblers were primitive by today's standards. 2. Many Share projects maintained mods tapes in the 1970s, and it would be appropriate to mention some of the maintainers by name. As I recall, Romney White maintained the VM mods tape, but there were many others. 3. Surely the "Paddle project" is worthy of mention. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Reg Harbeck Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2019 8:04 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: IBM Destination z - Of Elephants and Mainframes Good news: the article has been updated based on input from Gabe and IBM-MAIN. See http://secure-web.cisco.com/1NjfoRYHO_IklC98nwDba14_shyd-SmDL9s12DBLCbbunw9ikwHkSS62f-OQLEr6mQFZtfFlnKDiHcVBeb3mkP2aD1CObuhhFUztX3JDjqKQLM45g8-mNhCpVceetTGl1dUHs6rZ75TdPreROPzfSiOG_NPHB8-GXw7HO0TVRrHtYB_54tmjsYTL9KbWUr0d6WwK_Ytjhs3DcqpCKs-Ca6quPHitduHX82NNxmjvOMwa3wzWyObJW9cY7-UBwpXtDFyG_icp91KcQ3QBk0iQ3a57Yddeb4vLXRbA8VAuYlbf0f7LaqcrdxrFLFdBtpOrBmYuD7wOquEgifqGuwvz2mZthtN-tCuksZj7kyzo5XYBvgrFfxzRNRhk5ptGc2XjItzt1ZPYMxiS1Acf03EI8ZEDw-ThlxsxLhsqhms_90dAD44H8bYbK0eogmpkDQGLn/http%3A%2F%2Fdestinationz.org%2FMainframe-Solution%2FTrends%2Felephants-and-mainframes for the revised version. Thanks, all! Reg Harbeck +1.403.605.7986 -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Reg Harbeck Sent: August 1, 2019 14:40 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: IBM Destination z - Of Elephants and Mainframes Thank you, Gabe. I'm honoured that you read my writing so closely, and I take your correction seriously. I'll be more careful how I phrase such things in future articles. FWIW, I am aware that Fortran and other pre-COBOL languages already existed, so perhaps I should have said "much of this stuff" instead. (And to those who have made other suggestions on IBM-MAIN that I should have caught, but missed, in the past, my apologies: still getting into good habits of keeping up with this important part of the mainframe ecosystem.) Reg Harbeck +1.403.605.7986 P.S. Looking forward to seeing many of you in Pittsburgh next week. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Gabe Goldberg Sent: August 1, 2019 13:45 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: IBM Destination z - Of Elephants and Mainframes Think back… think way back, possibly to before you were born. Think of the reasons why SHARE was founded in 1955, and the main activities of SHARE. Once upon a time, when electronic computing technology was still being figured out, each new machine was so different from its predecessors that it was necessary to rewrite a whole new set of utilities and drivers and applications for it. Even Assembly language wasn’t available until 1957 (and the first COBOL compiler didn’t come out until 1960) so most of this stuff had to be manually entered in machine language. http://secure-web.cisco.com/1NjfoRYHO_IklC98nwDba14_shyd-SmDL9s12DBLCbbunw9ikwHkSS62f-OQLEr6mQFZtfFlnKDiHcVBeb3mkP2aD1CObuhhFUztX3JDjqKQLM45g8-mNhCpVceetTGl1dUHs6rZ75TdPreROPzfSiOG_NPHB8-GXw7HO0TVRrHtYB_54tmjsYTL9KbWUr0d6WwK_Ytjhs3DcqpCKs-Ca6quPHitduHX82NNxmjvOMwa3wzWyObJW9cY7-UBwpXtDFyG_icp91KcQ3QBk0iQ3a57Yddeb4vLXRbA8VAuYlbf0f7LaqcrdxrFLFdBtpOrBmYuD7wOquEgifqGuwvz2mZthtN-tCuksZj7kyzo5XYBvgrFfxzRNRhk5ptGc2XjItzt1ZPYMxiS1Acf03EI8ZEDw-ThlxsxLhsqhms_90dAD44H8bYbK0eogmpkDQGLn/http%3A%2F%2Fdestinationz.org%2FMainframe-Solution%2FTrends%2Felephants-and-mainframes Um, no. ACM SIGPLAN History of Programming Languages Conference 1978 article on FORTRAN says: Page 166 1.3 Programming Systems in 1954 Most "automatic programming" systems were either assembly programs, or subroutine-fixing programs, or, most popularly, interpretive systems to provide floating point and indexing operations. --- That's far beyond machine language three years before article claims anything more advanced than that was used. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM Destination z - Of Elephants and Mainframes
Good news: the article has been updated based on input from Gabe and IBM-MAIN. See http://destinationz.org/Mainframe-Solution/Trends/elephants-and-mainframes for the revised version. Thanks, all! Reg Harbeck +1.403.605.7986 -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Reg Harbeck Sent: August 1, 2019 14:40 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: IBM Destination z - Of Elephants and Mainframes Thank you, Gabe. I'm honoured that you read my writing so closely, and I take your correction seriously. I'll be more careful how I phrase such things in future articles. FWIW, I am aware that Fortran and other pre-COBOL languages already existed, so perhaps I should have said "much of this stuff" instead. (And to those who have made other suggestions on IBM-MAIN that I should have caught, but missed, in the past, my apologies: still getting into good habits of keeping up with this important part of the mainframe ecosystem.) Reg Harbeck +1.403.605.7986 P.S. Looking forward to seeing many of you in Pittsburgh next week. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Gabe Goldberg Sent: August 1, 2019 13:45 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: IBM Destination z - Of Elephants and Mainframes Think back… think way back, possibly to before you were born. Think of the reasons why SHARE was founded in 1955, and the main activities of SHARE. Once upon a time, when electronic computing technology was still being figured out, each new machine was so different from its predecessors that it was necessary to rewrite a whole new set of utilities and drivers and applications for it. Even Assembly language wasn’t available until 1957 (and the first COBOL compiler didn’t come out until 1960) so most of this stuff had to be manually entered in machine language. http://destinationz.org/Mainframe-Solution/Trends/elephants-and-mainframes Um, no. ACM SIGPLAN History of Programming Languages Conference 1978 article on FORTRAN says: Page 166 1.3 Programming Systems in 1954 Most "automatic programming" systems were either assembly programs, or subroutine-fixing programs, or, most popularly, interpretive systems to provide floating point and indexing operations. --- That's far beyond machine language three years before article claims anything more advanced than that was used. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM Destination z - Of Elephants and Mainframes
I can pretty much guarantee that NASA wasnt writing programs in the late 1950's in machine language... FORTRAN AND LISP were 704 languages. Joe On Thu, Aug 1, 2019 at 5:54 PM Seymour J Metz wrote: > Re 1957: with a SOAP II manual dated February 1957, how likely is it that > the original SOAP was 1957? > > As for COBOL, the report of the CODASYL short range committee didn't come > out until 1960, so no reasonable person can fault COBOL for not being > available until 1960. Predecessors COMTRAN, FACT and FLOW-MATIC were > available earlier. > > Was there a 702 AUTOCODER, or was 705 AUTOCODER the first? > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf > of Gabe Goldberg > Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2019 4:44 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: IBM Destination z - Of Elephants and Mainframes > > Think back… think way back, possibly to before you were born. Think of > the reasons why SHARE was founded in 1955, and the main activities of > SHARE. Once upon a time, when electronic computing technology was still > being figured out, each new machine was so different from its > predecessors that it was necessary to rewrite a whole new set of > utilities and drivers and applications for it. Even Assembly language > wasn’t available until 1957 (and the first COBOL compiler didn’t come > out until 1960) so most of this stuff had to be manually entered in > machine language. > > > http://secure-web.cisco.com/1sRflfpe_3MG-JJUXevBrHIvSyIEW9PsN2rYTWuTGqwBOAr-zFGHfNpUHvitRCLM_aCV9TSaREWmqUw_dpuFq2vpu-8gKxXZHSZE35BOXEQXdrprFGNKVESoQ0I00X03S9o8Yusb57C1545gU063YaXNTiyDJ_qwTiOHbvrZn-lL_8pKpLLxQ7rX9tBC3UCMgjbBqZgDI64oxgsleEgXwy84H-vMG9T4Es-zfkq9MbQLpd6YDZmf3loSs5fASiqKFwuWHZRV7sD2eQ22H8pR-Ag71cg41mlrqsQybgDR1EIh3B1Io7vZRxBNQ6JiKStnS86x_3hPa3RKCzsKv2h_CAHIQXoNbB3wAkfAAbD4VaG9Eu0ZgA0VouB7UkXZ5MUtGkMp4ulNnDWH6KEQKxSy9of51-PV2ok86Ql0JEK7d4DBnKdPKgo383q0YKCQ9xLYq/http%3A%2F%2Fdestinationz.org%2FMainframe-Solution%2FTrends%2Felephants-and-mainframes > > Um, no. ACM SIGPLAN History of Programming Languages Conference 1978 > article on FORTRAN says: > > Page 166 1.3 Programming Systems in 1954 > > Most "automatic programming" systems were either assembly programs, or > subroutine-fixing programs, or, most popularly, interpretive systems to > provide floating point and indexing operations. > > --- > > That's far beyond machine language three years before article claims > anything more advanced than that was used. > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM Destination z - Of Elephants and Mainframes
Re 1957: with a SOAP II manual dated February 1957, how likely is it that the original SOAP was 1957? As for COBOL, the report of the CODASYL short range committee didn't come out until 1960, so no reasonable person can fault COBOL for not being available until 1960. Predecessors COMTRAN, FACT and FLOW-MATIC were available earlier. Was there a 702 AUTOCODER, or was 705 AUTOCODER the first? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Gabe Goldberg Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2019 4:44 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: IBM Destination z - Of Elephants and Mainframes Think back… think way back, possibly to before you were born. Think of the reasons why SHARE was founded in 1955, and the main activities of SHARE. Once upon a time, when electronic computing technology was still being figured out, each new machine was so different from its predecessors that it was necessary to rewrite a whole new set of utilities and drivers and applications for it. Even Assembly language wasn’t available until 1957 (and the first COBOL compiler didn’t come out until 1960) so most of this stuff had to be manually entered in machine language. http://secure-web.cisco.com/1sRflfpe_3MG-JJUXevBrHIvSyIEW9PsN2rYTWuTGqwBOAr-zFGHfNpUHvitRCLM_aCV9TSaREWmqUw_dpuFq2vpu-8gKxXZHSZE35BOXEQXdrprFGNKVESoQ0I00X03S9o8Yusb57C1545gU063YaXNTiyDJ_qwTiOHbvrZn-lL_8pKpLLxQ7rX9tBC3UCMgjbBqZgDI64oxgsleEgXwy84H-vMG9T4Es-zfkq9MbQLpd6YDZmf3loSs5fASiqKFwuWHZRV7sD2eQ22H8pR-Ag71cg41mlrqsQybgDR1EIh3B1Io7vZRxBNQ6JiKStnS86x_3hPa3RKCzsKv2h_CAHIQXoNbB3wAkfAAbD4VaG9Eu0ZgA0VouB7UkXZ5MUtGkMp4ulNnDWH6KEQKxSy9of51-PV2ok86Ql0JEK7d4DBnKdPKgo383q0YKCQ9xLYq/http%3A%2F%2Fdestinationz.org%2FMainframe-Solution%2FTrends%2Felephants-and-mainframes Um, no. ACM SIGPLAN History of Programming Languages Conference 1978 article on FORTRAN says: Page 166 1.3 Programming Systems in 1954 Most "automatic programming" systems were either assembly programs, or subroutine-fixing programs, or, most popularly, interpretive systems to provide floating point and indexing operations. --- That's far beyond machine language three years before article claims anything more advanced than that was used. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: IBM Destination z - Of Elephants and Mainframes
Thank you, Gabe. I'm honoured that you read my writing so closely, and I take your correction seriously. I'll be more careful how I phrase such things in future articles. FWIW, I am aware that Fortran and other pre-COBOL languages already existed, so perhaps I should have said "much of this stuff" instead. (And to those who have made other suggestions on IBM-MAIN that I should have caught, but missed, in the past, my apologies: still getting into good habits of keeping up with this important part of the mainframe ecosystem.) Reg Harbeck +1.403.605.7986 P.S. Looking forward to seeing many of you in Pittsburgh next week. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Gabe Goldberg Sent: August 1, 2019 13:45 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: IBM Destination z - Of Elephants and Mainframes Think back… think way back, possibly to before you were born. Think of the reasons why SHARE was founded in 1955, and the main activities of SHARE. Once upon a time, when electronic computing technology was still being figured out, each new machine was so different from its predecessors that it was necessary to rewrite a whole new set of utilities and drivers and applications for it. Even Assembly language wasn’t available until 1957 (and the first COBOL compiler didn’t come out until 1960) so most of this stuff had to be manually entered in machine language. http://destinationz.org/Mainframe-Solution/Trends/elephants-and-mainframes Um, no. ACM SIGPLAN History of Programming Languages Conference 1978 article on FORTRAN says: Page 166 1.3 Programming Systems in 1954 Most "automatic programming" systems were either assembly programs, or subroutine-fixing programs, or, most popularly, interpretive systems to provide floating point and indexing operations. --- That's far beyond machine language three years before article claims anything more advanced than that was used. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
