Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Howard Turetzky]

On the bookshelf behind me in my office is an IBM carriage control tape punch. 
In the late 1970s I rented time on an IBM Model 40. It had no attached unit 
record hardware because the 2821 control unit was still used on 370 hardware 
and cost more than the Model 40! There was a 1401 with 4 7-track mag tape 
drives, a card reader, and a 1403 (not the model with the power lid). You would 
punch up your job cards, put them in the reader behind a well-worn small deck 
containing a program to read the cards and copy them to tape, then hang the 
tape on the a 7-track drive attached to the Model 40 to read in your job. 
Printed output was written to another 7-track mag tape, then taken to the 1401 
to print. (I still have DOS Release 26 SYSRES packs for 2311 (1316) and 2314 
(2316) drives/disk packs).

Being an old guy I punched a lot of tape on an ASR-33. I have a roll of paper 
tape that I recall getting at a meeting of the Denver Amateur Computer Society 
in '75. A couple of young guys named Bill Gates and Paul Allen were touring 
computer clubs showing off their 4K Basic interpreter for the Altair 8800. My 
Altair didn't have a paper tape reader, so I was never able to verify that the 
the tape actually contained a copy of Altair Basic.

Howard Turetzky

PS. Stupidest career move ever...I was a working programmer at the time. A 
smart person would have given his business card to Mr. Gates in case he was 
hiring. Being not so smart is why I'm still coding away in an office at the IBM 
site in Boulder.

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Edward Gould]

Gil:

That is for a PRINTER not a teletype machine. Two completely different animals.
That being said yes system 7 did have a teletype reader that is NOT a 360/370 
machine.

Ed
> On Jan 17, 2017, at 9:06 AM, Paul Gilmartin 
> <000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 20:12:02 -0600, Edward Gould wrote:
> 
>>> On Jan 16, 2017, at 10:52 AM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 07:00:27 -0600, Tom Marchant wrote:
 
 Yep. That's what I was thinking of. I didn't say that it was used for I/O.
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carriage_control_tape
>> 
>> ... I just got off the phone with a friend and he does not remember it for 
>> the 14xx either.
>> 
> Nonetheless, see the article:
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carriage_control_tape
> 
> -- gil
> 
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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Mike Myers]

Phil:

Hard to say. As mentioned earlier, my last contact with paper tape 
(other than 1403 printer control tape) was in1962 on my return to the 
lower 48 and my next USAF assignment at SAC HQ in Omaha, NB, where I 
remained in the USAF for another 2 years and stayed active in encrypted 
teletype and voice communications.  I don't recall any subsequent paper 
tape use even at SAC HQ, although teletype communications were in 
significant use there.


On going to work at IBM as a field engineer responsible for unit record 
equipment repair, I saw no paper tape use. After transferring to the IBM 
Data Systems Division in Poughkeepsie in 1966, I never saw paper tape 
(except for 1403 printer control tape). Not that it might have been in 
use elsewhere, but in the development lab in P'ok, NY, I never saw it 
after leaving the radar site in Alaska (and even there, it was only with 
teletypes). So while it may have been in use elsewhere with IBM gear, I 
had no experience with it on any IBM equipment I ever came into contact 
with. Punched cards, yes, that's a whole different story and that went 
on for a long time thereafter.


Mike Myers
Mentor Services Corporation

On 01/17/2017 08:45 PM, Phil Smith wrote:

Tom Marchant wrote:

Well into the 1970's almost every mainframe shop used paper tape.

Huh. We had a keypunch in the house in 1965, and I started hanging out in the 
computer room at UofW in 1971. I've never seen paper tape in use, only at the 
Computer History Museum. Maybe I was just lucky?

...phsiii



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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Gabe Goldberg]

Great line from great (at least as I remember it) scifi book 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adolescence_of_P-1 -- after a gunfight 
in computer room, during which a certain device took a bullet, "That 
1052 had it coming".


Bill Godfrey  mentioned:

> IBM reference
> https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/reference/glossary_1.html
>
> 1050 [2] The 1050 system consisted of the 1051 control unit, 1052
> printer-keyboard, 1053 printer, 1054 paper tape reader, 1055 paper tape
> punch and 1056 card reader. These various components were withdrawn from
> marketing between February 1974 and June 1978.


--
Gabriel Goldberg, Computers and Publishing, Inc.   g...@gabegold.com
3401 Silver Maple Place, Falls Church, VA 22042   (703) 204-0433
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/gabegoldTwitter: GabeG0

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Paul Gilmartin]

On 2017-01-17 18:45, Phil Smith wrote:
> Tom Marchant wrote:
>> Well into the 1970's almost every mainframe shop used paper tape.
> 
> Huh. We had a keypunch in the house in 1965, and I started hanging out in the 
> computer room at UofW in 1971. I've never seen paper tape in use, only at the 
> Computer History Museum. Maybe I was just lucky?
> 
Regardless, they're not mutually exclusive.

-- gil

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Phil Smith]

Tom Marchant wrote:
>Well into the 1970's almost every mainframe shop used paper tape.

Huh. We had a keypunch in the house in 1965, and I started hanging out in the 
computer room at UofW in 1971. I've never seen paper tape in use, only at the 
Computer History Museum. Maybe I was just lucky?

...phsiii



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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:21:16 -0800, Charles Mills wrote:

>Yep. I was going to ask that as a Friday riddle: "what was special about 
>channel 12?" Yes, a program could check it so that it knew when to quit 
>printing detail lines, print subtotals, and eject to a new page. Holy cow! Can 
>you imagine a program running directly connected to a printer, not spooled?
> 
If the virtualization of the printer were complete it should just work.  I'd 
not be surprised
if it works on VM with a spooled virtual printer and LOADVFCB.  POWER?

>Generated a Data Check (?) on the channel, which showed up in the I/O 
>completion status somewhere.
> 
A better abstraction might set a flag in the DCB rather than requiring the 
programmer to
chase control blocks.

>I just looked -- still sort of supported in COBOL 4.2 anyway: "AT END-OF-PAGE" 
>-- but now relies on a programmatic counter. 
>
A tech writer in a department I once had to work with defined her 11" pages with
61 lines instead of the conventional 60 to cheat one more row in character-cell
engineering drawings.  Lots of grief when I had to use a printer with 
conventional
setup.  And some optical printers might not tolerate that at all.  (Might not 
have
been her fault; she may have inherited the behavior from a predecessor.)

ALGOL-68 presumes 3-dimensional printer files: page x row x column.

Is there a way to cause ISPF Browse to scroll to skip-to-channel-1 code?
OK.  Put a FIND comand on a PF key.

-- gil

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Tom Marchant]

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:21:16 -0800, Charles Mills wrote:

>Can you imagine a program running directly connected to a printer, not spooled?

Back in the '70's we had a couple of programs that directly connected to a 
printer. They were check writing programs, and the check numbers were 
pre-printed on the forms. The program that wrote the checks would print a bunch 
of "VOID" stuff in the appropriate locations for alignment purposes.

When the operator was satisfied with the alignment, the operator would tell the 
program (IIRC) the last voided check number so that the check register could be 
updated with the check number for each check that was printed. The program had 
to deal with breaks and the end of the box and re-align the forms.

-- 
Tom Marchant

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Charles Mills]

Yep. I was going to ask that as a Friday riddle: "what was special about 
channel 12?" Yes, a program could check it so that it knew when to quit 
printing detail lines, print subtotals, and eject to a new page. Holy cow! Can 
you imagine a program running directly connected to a printer, not spooled?

Generated a Data Check (?) on the channel, which showed up in the I/O 
completion status somewhere.

I just looked -- still sort of supported in COBOL 4.2 anyway: "AT END-OF-PAGE" 
-- but now relies on a programmatic counter. 

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Dana Mitchell
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 11:57 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

And also wasn't a channel 12 punch used as end of form indicator that could be 
checked programatically,  so the program could skip to channel 1 when needed?

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Dana Mitchell]

And also wasn't a channel 12 punch used as end of form indicator that could be 
checked programatically,  so the program could skip to channel 1 when needed?

Now that's been a while...
Dana

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Michael O'Byrne]

Carriage control tapes rode on one free spinning wheel and one sprocket 
wheel.  The free spinning wheel was adjustable and was used to apply 
slight pressure to the tape.  They were at the upper right of the print 
mechanism.  The wheels were 1-1/2 to 2 inches in diameter.  The tapes were 
punched in one of 12 "channels."  The tapes were glued at the ends to 
provide a continuous oval.  Depending on the printer clutch setting the 
1403 would print 6 or 8 lines per inch.  The minimum length was determined 
by the need to wrap around both of the wheels and have some space between 
the two wheels. 

The punch for the tape produced a hole similar to a punch card, but 
slightly shorter.  There would be a punch for the top of the form and any 
places the form should be "skipped" to - start of the address line on an 
invoice, date line, detail line, total line, etc.  Skipping was quicker 
than spacing using line printing.  If the wrong carriage control tape was 
installed and a channel to be skipped to was not there the printer would 
go into a high speed skip and the form would fly through the printer.  You 
had to be sure to use the right tape or the form would not be spaced 
correctly. 


Michael C. O'Byrne
Senior Software Analyst - Enterprise Server
Foot Locker Corporate Services
7800 W Brown Deer Rd, Milwaukee, WI 53223
(414) 357-4094



From:   Charles Mills <charl...@mcn.org>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Date:   01/16/2017 11:27 AM
Subject:        Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)
Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu>



It was exactly as shown in the Wikipedia photo. It was a very durable, 
tough, high-fiber paper, not at all the same as TTY punch tape -- other 
than the superficial similarity. After all, it made a trip around the 
sensors every page that the 14xx printed, boxes and boxes of greenbar 
every day. (Or every other page, perhaps. I seem to recall that there was 
a minimum length to the tape and it was not uncommon to make one tape loop 
account for two printed pages.) There was a special punch 
http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/physical-object/ibm/102668343.lg.jpg
, but I seem to recall that in a pinch one could use a loose-leaf or 
similar punch.

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On 
Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2017 8:53 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 07:00:27 -0600, Tom Marchant wrote:

>On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 00:15:38 +, Vince Coen wrote:
>
>>If no where else it was on the printers for channel control.
>
>Yep. That's what I was thinking of. I didn't say that it was used for 
I/O.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carriage_control_tape
> 
I recall in that era that IBM printers used an idiosyncratic tape, as in 
the Wikipedia illustration, requiring a proprietary punch (or would a 
loose-leaf punch work?)  CDC printers  used a conventional Teletype tape. 
Usually a collection of tape loops hung on a pegboard near the printer.

-- gil

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Nims,Alva John (Al)]

Ours was a stack of reel-2-reel tapes on top of the printer.

Al Nims
Systems Admin/Programmer 3
UFIT
University of Florida
(352) 273-1298

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Charles Mills
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 12:07 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

> Extra points could be earned by raising the lid when printing was 
> actually taking place

The cover (as you noted) raised on its own for paper jams and IIRC a paper out 
condition. Double extra points for causing the lid to raise when something -- a 
tray of cards, a verboten cup of coffee, the CE's took kit -- was sitting on 
the top of the cover.

> The control loop had to be at least the same length as the page being 
> controlled

Same length in lines, same "logical" length, not inches, although the two were 
not far different IIRC.

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Sean Gleann
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 8:30 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

"...There is just zero doubt in my mind that the 1403 printer used a "special" 
(not TTY-like) paper tape, solely for carriage control, not "data."..."

That's my memory, too.
Ours was a 1403-N1 aka '1403-Nancy' - with a lid that was raised on 
motor-driven screws when the paper either jammed or ran out (or the 'OPEN'
button was pressed) thereby exposing delicate ears to the almighty racket of 
the chain-control motor. Extra points could be earned by raising the lid when 
printing was actually taking place, thus making normal speech impossible.

As I remember things, the 'paper control loop' was made out of some kind of 
Mylar-based material. Certainly, 'normal' paper tape was simply too fragile for 
this use.

The control loop had to be at least the same length as the page being 
controlled (or a multiple, if the physical page was very short), but we never 
had 'clever' stuff that required holes punched in anything other than 'channel 
1'.
If you didn't re-tension the loop sufficiently when changing over to a 
different one, the printer would go 'hunting' for channel-1, spewing paper out 
at the back at a high rate of knots...

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Charles Mills]

It is easy to forget how many radically, software-incompatible different
"mainframe" lines IBM sold. Others have cataloged the various numbers better
than I could. It seems foreign now, not being able to run General Ledger and
some scientific calculation on the same mainframe.

The 360 was of course named for its "full circle" capabilities, scientific
and decimal. HOWEVER, this "two kinds of machines" thinking carried over
even to the 360. The decimal instructions were an optional feature, and so
were the floating point instructions, at least on some models, IIRC. So you
could buy a "commercial" 360 or a "scientific" 360, as well as one that did
both.

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Anne & Lynn Wheeler
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 8:31 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

charl...@mcn.org (Charles Mills) writes:
> And 1443 (?). I had a client that had a 1403 variant that was a little 
> slower but included a 16-or-so column card reader. You could print 
> invoices on pre-punched cards and read the punching to make sure you 
> were printing on the right card (no spool, obviously). It printed on 
> "160-column" cards, that is, two 80-column cards with a tearable fold 
> in the middle. One-half was the document the customer returned with a 
> check; one half was for his records.
>
> 1401 was a processor, not a printer, the "commercial" machine that 
> preceded the 360, the "all-purpose" computer. (70xx was the 
> "scientific" series.)
>
> Agree on the 3211.
>
> There is just zero doubt in my mind that the 1403 printer used a 
> "special" (not TTY-like) paper tape, solely for carriage control, not 
> "data."

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017.html#37 Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

we eventually put 1443 on 360/65 for keeping up with console output, things
got so that 1052-7 couldn't keep up with all the messages ...
and so had to be filtered down.

1401 was low/mid-range ... 70xx was high end
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_705

The IBM 700/7000 series has six completely different ways of storing data
and instructions:

First (36/18-bit words): 701 (Defense Calculator) Scientific (36-bit words):
704, 709, 7090, 7094, 7040, 7044 Commercial (variable length character
strings): 702, 705, 7080
1400 series (variable length character strings): 7010 Decimal (10 digit
words): 7070, 7072, 7074 Supercomputer (64-bit words): 7030 "Stretch"

...

a 360 was to merge commercial & scientific in single architecture

360s came with various additional microcode features that implemented
earlier architectures http://ibm-1401.info/1401in360.html#360-1401MicroCode

some of my old posts on 360s with microcode feature that implemented earlier
architectures
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006q.html#55 Was FORTRAN buggy?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009b.html#71 IBM tried to kill VM?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009h.html#52 IBM 1401
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009l.html#10 August 7, 1944: today is the 65th
Anniversary of the Birth of the  Computer
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009p.html#74 The 50th Anniversary of the
Legendary IBM 1401
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#56 You know you've been Lisp hacking
to long when
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010p.html#11 Rare Apple I computer sells for
$216,000 in London
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011e.html#53 You almost NEVER see these for
sale, own a 360 console
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011g.html#70 History of byte addressing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011n.html#84 Scanning JES3 JCL
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013l.html#69 model numbers; was re: World's
worst programming environment?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014.html#23 Scary Sysprogs and educating those
'kids'
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014e.html#17 System/360 celebration set for ten
cities; 1964 pricing for oneweek
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015b.html#15 What were the complaints of binary
code programmers that not accept Assembly?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2016d.html#73 Is it a lost cause?

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Charles Mills]

> Extra points could be earned by raising the lid when printing was actually 
> taking place

The cover (as you noted) raised on its own for paper jams and IIRC a paper out 
condition. Double extra points for causing the lid to raise when something -- a 
tray of cards, a verboten cup of coffee, the CE's took kit -- was sitting on 
the top of the cover.

> The control loop had to be at least the same length as the page being 
> controlled

Same length in lines, same "logical" length, not inches, although the two were 
not far different IIRC.

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Sean Gleann
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 8:30 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

"...There is just zero doubt in my mind that the 1403 printer used a "special" 
(not TTY-like) paper tape, solely for carriage control, not "data."..."

That's my memory, too.
Ours was a 1403-N1 aka '1403-Nancy' - with a lid that was raised on 
motor-driven screws when the paper either jammed or ran out (or the 'OPEN'
button was pressed) thereby exposing delicate ears to the almighty racket of 
the chain-control motor. Extra points could be earned by raising the lid when 
printing was actually taking place, thus making normal speech impossible.

As I remember things, the 'paper control loop' was made out of some kind of 
Mylar-based material. Certainly, 'normal' paper tape was simply too fragile for 
this use.

The control loop had to be at least the same length as the page being 
controlled (or a multiple, if the physical page was very short), but we never 
had 'clever' stuff that required holes punched in anything other than 'channel 
1'.
If you didn't re-tension the loop sufficiently when changing over to a 
different one, the printer would go 'hunting' for channel-1, spewing paper out 
at the back at a high rate of knots...

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

charl...@mcn.org (Charles Mills) writes:
> And 1443 (?). I had a client that had a 1403 variant that was a little
> slower but included a 16-or-so column card reader. You could print
> invoices on pre-punched cards and read the punching to make sure you
> were printing on the right card (no spool, obviously). It printed on
> "160-column" cards, that is, two 80-column cards with a tearable fold
> in the middle. One-half was the document the customer returned with a
> check; one half was for his records.
>
> 1401 was a processor, not a printer, the "commercial" machine that
> preceded the 360, the "all-purpose" computer. (70xx was the
> "scientific" series.)
>
> Agree on the 3211.
>
> There is just zero doubt in my mind that the 1403 printer used a
> "special" (not TTY-like) paper tape, solely for carriage control, not
> "data."

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017.html#37 Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

we eventually put 1443 on 360/65 for keeping up with console output,
things got so that 1052-7 couldn't keep up with all the messages ...
and so had to be filtered down.

1401 was low/mid-range ... 70xx was high end
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_705

The IBM 700/7000 series has six completely different ways of storing
data and instructions:

First (36/18-bit words): 701 (Defense Calculator)
Scientific (36-bit words): 704, 709, 7090, 7094, 7040, 7044
Commercial (variable length character strings): 702, 705, 7080
1400 series (variable length character strings): 7010
Decimal (10 digit words): 7070, 7072, 7074
Supercomputer (64-bit words): 7030 "Stretch"

...

a 360 was to merge commercial & scientific in single architecture

360s came with various additional microcode features that implemented
earlier architectures
http://ibm-1401.info/1401in360.html#360-1401MicroCode

some of my old posts on 360s with microcode feature that implemented
earlier architectures
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006q.html#55 Was FORTRAN buggy?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009b.html#71 IBM tried to kill VM?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009h.html#52 IBM 1401
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009l.html#10 August 7, 1944: today is the 65th 
Anniversary of the Birth of the  Computer
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009p.html#74 The 50th Anniversary of the Legendary 
IBM 1401
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009r.html#56 You know you've been Lisp hacking to 
long when
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010p.html#11 Rare Apple I computer sells for 
$216,000 in London
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011e.html#53 You almost NEVER see these for sale, 
own a 360 console
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011g.html#70 History of byte addressing
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011n.html#84 Scanning JES3 JCL
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013l.html#69 model numbers; was re: World's worst 
programming environment?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014.html#23 Scary Sysprogs and educating those 
'kids'
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014e.html#17 System/360 celebration set for ten 
cities; 1964 pricing for oneweek
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2015b.html#15 What were the complaints of binary 
code programmers that not accept Assembly?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2016d.html#73 Is it a lost cause?

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Sean Gleann]

"...There is just zero doubt in my mind that the 1403 printer used a
"special" (not TTY-like) paper tape, solely for carriage control, not
"data."..."

That's my memory, too.
Ours was a 1403-N1 aka '1403-Nancy' - with a lid that was raised on
motor-driven screws when the paper either jammed or ran out (or the 'OPEN'
button was pressed) thereby exposing delicate ears to the almighty racket
of the chain-control motor. Extra points could be earned by raising the lid
when printing was actually taking place, thus making normal speech
impossible.

As I remember things, the 'paper control loop' was made out of some kind of
Mylar-based material. Certainly, 'normal' paper tape was simply too fragile
for this use.

The control loop had to be at least the same length as the page being
controlled (or a multiple, if the physical page was very short), but we
never had 'clever' stuff that required holes punched in anything other than
'channel 1'.
If you didn't re-tension the loop sufficiently when changing over to a
different one, the printer would go 'hunting' for channel-1, spewing paper
out at the back at a high rate of knots...



On 17 January 2017 at 15:42, Charles Mills <charl...@mcn.org> wrote:

> 1403, not 1401.
>
> And 1443 (?). I had a client that had a 1403 variant that was a little
> slower but included a 16-or-so column card reader. You could print invoices
> on pre-punched cards and read the punching to make sure you were printing
> on the right card (no spool, obviously). It printed on "160-column" cards,
> that is, two 80-column cards with a tearable fold in the middle. One-half
> was the document the customer returned with a check; one half was for his
> records.
>
> 1401 was a processor, not a printer, the "commercial" machine that
> preceded the 360, the "all-purpose" computer. (70xx was the "scientific"
> series.)
>
> Agree on the 3211.
>
> There is just zero doubt in my mind that the 1403 printer used a "special"
> (not TTY-like) paper tape, solely for carriage control, not "data."
>
> Charles
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Vernooij, Kees (ITOPT1) - KLM
> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 7:24 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)
>
>
> Gil:
> That is not how I remember it at all. The Carriage tape on a 1403/3211(?)
> was just for that machine. i.e. skip to channel x As I have said before I
> do not ever remember seeing any IBM device or computer that had a paper
> tape reader/writer.
> This goes back to the 360’s . I just got off the phone with a friend and
> he does not remember it for the 14xx either.
>
> Ed
> --
>
> 1403/3211? It was for the 1401/1403. You had to load it during setup. In
> Dutch: 'het bandje' or 'the strap'.
>
> --
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>

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Clark Morris]

[Default] On 17 Jan 2017 07:42:04 -0800, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
charl...@mcn.org (Charles Mills) wrote:

>1403, not 1401.
>
>And 1443 (?). I had a client that had a 1403 variant that was a little slower 
>but included a 16-or-so column card reader. You could print invoices on 
>pre-punched cards and read the punching to make sure you were printing on the 
>right card (no spool, obviously). It printed on "160-column" cards, that is, 
>two 80-column cards with a tearable fold in the middle. One-half was the 
>document the customer returned with a check; one half was for his records.
>
>1401 was a processor, not a printer, the "commercial" machine that preceded 
>the 360, the "all-purpose" computer. (70xx was the "scientific" series.)
The 1401/1410, 705 - 7080 were character machines with decimal
arithmetic, the 707 - 707x were word machines with decimal arithmetic,
and the 704 - 704x and 709 -709x were 36 bit word with binary
arithmetic.  The 1620 was a weird machine for scientific use with
decimal arithmetic via table lookup.

Clark Morris


Clark Morris
>
>Agree on the 3211.
>
>There is just zero doubt in my mind that the 1403 printer used a "special" 
>(not TTY-like) paper tape, solely for carriage control, not "data."
>
>Charles
>
>-Original Message-
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On 
>Behalf Of Vernooij, Kees (ITOPT1) - KLM
>Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 7:24 AM
>To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>Subject: Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)
>
>
>Gil:
>That is not how I remember it at all. The Carriage tape on a 1403/3211(?) was 
>just for that machine. i.e. skip to channel x As I have said before I do not 
>ever remember seeing any IBM device or computer that had a paper tape 
>reader/writer.
>This goes back to the 360’s . I just got off the phone with a friend and he 
>does not remember it for the 14xx either.
>
>Ed
>--
>
>1403/3211? It was for the 1401/1403. You had to load it during setup. In 
>Dutch: 'het bandje' or 'the strap'. 
>
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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Bill Godfrey]

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 19:29:19 -0800, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:

>edgould1948 (Edward Gould) writes:
>> That is not how I remember it at all. The Carriage tape on a
>> 1403/3211(?) was just for that machine. i.e. skip to channel x As I
>> have said before I do not ever remember seeing any IBM device or
>> computer that had a paper tape reader/writer.  This goes back to the
>> 360’s . I just got off the phone with a friend and he does not
>> remember it for the 14xx either.
>
>2671 paper tape reader and 2822 paper tape reader control
>http://www.beagle-ears.com/lars/engineer/comphist/c20-1684/fig089.jpg
>
>IBM reference
>https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/reference/glossary_1.html
>
>1050 [2] The 1050 system consisted of the 1051 control unit, 1052
>printer-keyboard, 1053 printer, 1054 paper tape reader, 1055 paper tape
>punch and 1056 card reader. These various components were withdrawn from
>marketing between February 1974 and June 1978.
>
>
>
>360 bibliograpy
>http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/360/bibliography/GA22-6822-20_System_360_and_System_370_Bibliography_Jul73.pdf
>
>GA24-3388 IBM 2671 PAPER TAPE READER. IBM 2822 PAPER TAPE READER
>CONTROL COMPONENT DESCRIPTION
>
>GA33-4500 IBM SYSTEM/360 COMPONENT DESCRIPTIONS - IBM 2826 PAPER TAPE
>CONTROL UNIT 1017 PAPER TAPE READER 1018 PAPER TAPE PUNCH
>
>...
>
>1401 installation manual, pg22, fig17, ibm 1011 paper tape reader
>http://ibm-1401.info/C24-1404-3-1401-Inst-Man.pdf
>
>
>GC20-0032-3 System/32 bibliography pg2-4, GA21-9240 3741 reader/punch
>attachmen feature, IBM 1017 paper tape reader
>http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/system32/GC20-0032-3_System32_Bibliography_Apr78.pdf
>

Another link related to this subject:
http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/360/os/R21.7_Apr73/GC26-3794-1_OS_Data_Management_Macro_Instructions_Rel_21.7_Jun73.pdf

In the description of the DCB macro for BSAM on pages 69 and 71 (83rd and 85th 
PDF pages) is a description of DEVD=PT for paper tape devices. Ditto for QSAM 
on pages 97 and 99.

What's more, you can code DEVD=PT on the lastest z/OS systems and it will be 
accepted, even though it is not documented. You can also find the words "PAPER 
TAPE" in comments in the DCB macro on z/OS.

Bill

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Charles Mills]

1403, not 1401.

And 1443 (?). I had a client that had a 1403 variant that was a little slower 
but included a 16-or-so column card reader. You could print invoices on 
pre-punched cards and read the punching to make sure you were printing on the 
right card (no spool, obviously). It printed on "160-column" cards, that is, 
two 80-column cards with a tearable fold in the middle. One-half was the 
document the customer returned with a check; one half was for his records.

1401 was a processor, not a printer, the "commercial" machine that preceded the 
360, the "all-purpose" computer. (70xx was the "scientific" series.)

Agree on the 3211.

There is just zero doubt in my mind that the 1403 printer used a "special" (not 
TTY-like) paper tape, solely for carriage control, not "data."

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Vernooij, Kees (ITOPT1) - KLM
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 7:24 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)


Gil:
That is not how I remember it at all. The Carriage tape on a 1403/3211(?) was 
just for that machine. i.e. skip to channel x As I have said before I do not 
ever remember seeing any IBM device or computer that had a paper tape 
reader/writer.
This goes back to the 360’s . I just got off the phone with a friend and he 
does not remember it for the 14xx either.

Ed
--

1403/3211? It was for the 1401/1403. You had to load it during setup. In Dutch: 
'het bandje' or 'the strap'. 

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Vernooij, Kees (ITOPT1) - KLM]

Gil:
That is not how I remember it at all. The Carriage tape on a 1403/3211(?) was 
just for that machine. i.e. skip to channel x
As I have said before I do not ever remember seeing any IBM device or computer 
that had a paper tape reader/writer.
This goes back to the 360’s . I just got off the phone with a friend and he 
does not remember it for the 14xx either.

Ed
--

1403/3211? It was for the 1401/1403. You had to load it during setup. In Dutch: 
'het bandje' or 'the strap'. 
The 3211 used a software FCB (Forms Control Buffer) to define the printpage and 
the channels on it. You created and compiled the FCB to the SYS1.IMAGELIB and 
specified the FCB with your SYSOUT statement. The FCB was then loaded into the 
3211 during setup of each print job. 
Later the Kodak microfiche printer used the FCB and its print handling to 
transmit the so called 'jobset' to the machine that defined the layout of the 
microfiche.

Kees.


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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 20:12:02 -0600, Edward Gould wrote:

>> On Jan 16, 2017, at 10:52 AM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 07:00:27 -0600, Tom Marchant wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yep. That's what I was thinking of. I didn't say that it was used for I/O.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carriage_control_tape
>
> ... I just got off the phone with a friend and he does not remember it for 
> the 14xx either.
>
Nonetheless, see the article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carriage_control_tape

-- gil

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Edward Gould]

> On Jan 16, 2017, at 11:07 PM, retired mainframer <retired-mainfra...@q.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> While an individual's experience may be typical, it is seldom exhaustive.
> 
> We had a paper tape punch on our system well past 1977.  I first used it in 
> 1973 on a 370/155 but I know it was transferred from an older system and 
> survived several CPU upgrades.  The corresponding paper tape readers were 
> attached to IBM 4PI systems that were installed on a fleet of aircraft.  The 
> readers were removed from the aircraft over an extended period sometime 
> starting in 1984 after years of very infrequent use, if at all.  I expect the 
> punch remained available till the last reader was finally removed.
> 
> We finally gave up on the black paper tape and started using green Mylar tape 
> which was borderline indestructible, though subject to crinkling.  The used 
> tape was saved for Christmas decorations.

I am guessing this was the military, right?
I was in the military for 3 years and never saw one and we had  360’s. Although 
I was in Germany the army seemed to have a UNIVAC presence and thank god no 
paper tape.

Ed
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
>> Behalf Of Edward Gould
>> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2017 6:12 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)
>> Gil:
>> That is not how I remember it at all. The Carriage tape on a 1403/3211(?) 
>> was just for that
>> machine. i.e. skip to channel x
>> As I have said before I do not ever remember seeing any IBM device or 
>> computer that had a
>> paper tape reader/writer.
>> This goes back to the 360’s . I just got off the phone with a friend and he 
>> does not
>> remember it for the 14xx either.
> 
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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[retired mainframer]

While an individual's experience may be typical, it is seldom exhaustive.

We had a paper tape punch on our system well past 1977.  I first used it in 
1973 on a 370/155 but I know it was transferred from an older system and 
survived several CPU upgrades.  The corresponding paper tape readers were 
attached to IBM 4PI systems that were installed on a fleet of aircraft.  The 
readers were removed from the aircraft over an extended period sometime 
starting in 1984 after years of very infrequent use, if at all.  I expect the 
punch remained available till the last reader was finally removed.

We finally gave up on the black paper tape and started using green Mylar tape 
which was borderline indestructible, though subject to crinkling.  The used 
tape was saved for Christmas decorations.

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Edward Gould
> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2017 6:12 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)
> Gil:
> That is not how I remember it at all. The Carriage tape on a 1403/3211(?) was 
> just for that
> machine. i.e. skip to channel x
> As I have said before I do not ever remember seeing any IBM device or 
> computer that had a
> paper tape reader/writer.
> This goes back to the 360’s . I just got off the phone with a friend and he 
> does not
> remember it for the 14xx either.

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Anne & Lynn Wheeler]

edgould1...@comcast.net (Edward Gould) writes:
> That is not how I remember it at all. The Carriage tape on a
> 1403/3211(?) was just for that machine. i.e. skip to channel x As I
> have said before I do not ever remember seeing any IBM device or
> computer that had a paper tape reader/writer.  This goes back to the
> 360’s . I just got off the phone with a friend and he does not
> remember it for the 14xx either.

2671 paper tape reader and 2822 paper tape reader control
http://www.beagle-ears.com/lars/engineer/comphist/c20-1684/fig089.jpg

IBM reference
https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/reference/glossary_1.html

1050 [2] The 1050 system consisted of the 1051 control unit, 1052
printer-keyboard, 1053 printer, 1054 paper tape reader, 1055 paper tape
punch and 1056 card reader. These various components were withdrawn from
marketing between February 1974 and June 1978.



360 bibliograpy
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/360/bibliography/GA22-6822-20_System_360_and_System_370_Bibliography_Jul73.pdf

GA24-3388 IBM 2671 PAPER TAPE READER. IBM 2822 PAPER TAPE READER
CONTROL COMPONENT DESCRIPTION

GA33-4500 IBM SYSTEM/360 COMPONENT DESCRIPTIONS - IBM 2826 PAPER TAPE
CONTROL UNIT 1017 PAPER TAPE READER 1018 PAPER TAPE PUNCH

...

1401 installation manual, pg22, fig17, ibm 1011 paper tape reader
http://ibm-1401.info/C24-1404-3-1401-Inst-Man.pdf


GC20-0032-3 System/32 bibliography pg2-4, GA21-9240 3741 reader/punch
attachmen feature, IBM 1017 paper tape reader
http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/system32/GC20-0032-3_System32_Bibliography_Apr78.pdf

-- 
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Edward Gould]

> On Jan 16, 2017, at 10:52 AM, Paul Gilmartin 
> <000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 07:00:27 -0600, Tom Marchant wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 00:15:38 +, Vince Coen wrote:
>> 
>>> If no where else it was on the printers for channel control.
>> 
>> Yep. That's what I was thinking of. I didn't say that it was used for I/O.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carriage_control_tape
>> 
> I recall in that era that IBM printers used an idiosyncratic tape, as in
> the Wikipedia illustration, requiring a proprietary punch (or would a
> loose-leaf punch work?)  CDC printers  used a conventional Teletype
> tape. Usually a collection of tape loops hung on a pegboard near
> the printer.
> 
> -- gil

Gil:
That is not how I remember it at all. The Carriage tape on a 1403/3211(?) was 
just for that machine. i.e. skip to channel x
As I have said before I do not ever remember seeing any IBM device or computer 
that had a paper tape reader/writer.
This goes back to the 360’s . I just got off the phone with a friend and he 
does not remember it for the 14xx either.

Ed
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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Charles Mills]

> It was Bad Practice not to have at least one hole punched in every
channel.

Right! Had forgotten that! If a program skipped to channel 'n' and there was
no 'n' hole punch the 14xx would perform a high-speed eject of an entire box
of printer paper. Fun to watch, but earned the perpetrator the everlasting
enmity of the operators.

But you couldn't do all the "safety" punches on one line: it would weaken
the tape too much at that point. You had to do kind of a "stairstep" of
spare punches.

Great illustration of tape and punch here:
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-IA1R-KQhpjg/UZm_OaHlLDI/FtI/sV4Ab7vugcs/s
1600/Carriage+Tape.jpg 

Thinking about what I wrote below, even though the tape was tough, it did
not last forever. The holes were read with mechanical brass wire brushes
IIRC, and eventually they tore up the carriage tape and it had to be
replaced, usually at the most inopportune moment.

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2017 10:39 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 09:27:31 -0800, Charles Mills wrote:

>It was exactly as shown in the Wikipedia photo. It was a very durable,
tough, high-fiber paper, not at all the same as TTY punch tape -- other than
the superficial similarity. After all, it made a trip around the sensors
every page that the 14xx printed, boxes and boxes of greenbar every day. (Or
every other page, perhaps. I seem to recall that there was a minimum length
to the tape and it was not uncommon to make one tape loop account for two
printed pages.) There was a special punch
http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/physical-object/ibm/102668343.l
g.jpg, but I seem to recall that in a pinch one could use a loose-leaf or
similar punch.
>
I recall visiting a site that had separate channel(s) for recto (and verso?)
sheets in fanfolded paper.

It was Bad Practice not to have at least one hole punched in every channel.

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 09:27:31 -0800, Charles Mills wrote:

>It was exactly as shown in the Wikipedia photo. It was a very durable, tough, 
>high-fiber paper, not at all the same as TTY punch tape -- other than the 
>superficial similarity. After all, it made a trip around the sensors every 
>page that the 14xx printed, boxes and boxes of greenbar every day. (Or every 
>other page, perhaps. I seem to recall that there was a minimum length to the 
>tape and it was not uncommon to make one tape loop account for two printed 
>pages.) There was a special punch 
>http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/physical-object/ibm/102668343.lg.jpg,
> but I seem to recall that in a pinch one could use a loose-leaf or similar 
>punch.
>
I recall visiting a site that had separate channel(s) for recto (and verso?)
sheets in fanfolded paper.

It was Bad Practice not to have at least one hole punched in every channel.


>-Original Message-
>>
>>Yep. That's what I was thinking of. I didn't say that it was used for I/O.
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carriage_control_tape
>> 
>I recall in that era that IBM printers used an idiosyncratic tape, as in the 
>Wikipedia illustration, requiring a proprietary punch (or would a loose-leaf 
>punch work?)  CDC printers  used a conventional Teletype tape. Usually a 
>collection of tape loops hung on a pegboard near the printer.

-- gil

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Charles Mills]

It was exactly as shown in the Wikipedia photo. It was a very durable, tough, 
high-fiber paper, not at all the same as TTY punch tape -- other than the 
superficial similarity. After all, it made a trip around the sensors every page 
that the 14xx printed, boxes and boxes of greenbar every day. (Or every other 
page, perhaps. I seem to recall that there was a minimum length to the tape and 
it was not uncommon to make one tape loop account for two printed pages.) There 
was a special punch 
http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/physical-object/ibm/102668343.lg.jpg,
 but I seem to recall that in a pinch one could use a loose-leaf or similar 
punch.

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2017 8:53 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 07:00:27 -0600, Tom Marchant wrote:

>On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 00:15:38 +, Vince Coen wrote:
>
>>If no where else it was on the printers for channel control.
>
>Yep. That's what I was thinking of. I didn't say that it was used for I/O.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carriage_control_tape
> 
I recall in that era that IBM printers used an idiosyncratic tape, as in the 
Wikipedia illustration, requiring a proprietary punch (or would a loose-leaf 
punch work?)  CDC printers  used a conventional Teletype tape. Usually a 
collection of tape loops hung on a pegboard near the printer.

-- gil

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 07:00:27 -0600, Tom Marchant wrote:

>On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 00:15:38 +, Vince Coen wrote:
>
>>If no where else it was on the printers for channel control.
>
>Yep. That's what I was thinking of. I didn't say that it was used for I/O.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carriage_control_tape
> 
I recall in that era that IBM printers used an idiosyncratic tape, as in
the Wikipedia illustration, requiring a proprietary punch (or would a
loose-leaf punch work?)  CDC printers  used a conventional Teletype
tape. Usually a collection of tape loops hung on a pegboard near
the printer.

-- gil

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Tom Marchant]

On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 00:15:38 +, Vince Coen wrote:

>If no where else it was on the printers for channel control.

Yep. That's what I was thinking of. I didn't say that it was used for I/O.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carriage_control_tape

>> From: "Tom Marchant" <000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 2:21:58 PM
>> Subject: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)
>>
>> Well into the 1970's almost every mainframe shop used paper tape.
>>
>> What was it used for?

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Tom Marchant

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Sean Gleann]

Back to the early 70s and the start of my career... as a lowly trainee
operator on an ICL 1904 at the local University...
The programmers would supply their compiled programs in the form of spools
of paper tape, just because the spools were physically compact.
After reading in the same program a few times, the tape would begin to wear
and eventually become so fragile that it would wreck in the reader.
At which time it became the job of yours truly to repair the damage by
duplicating the wrecked portion of tape, one hole at a time, on a manual
punch, then splicing the new piece in to the original spool.
Ah... them were the days...

I've seen mentions in this thread about '5-hole' and '8-hole' tape... I
remember being taught about 5-hole tape, but I never actually saw any.
But I've no memories at all about '8-hole' tape.
The tape mentioned above was had 7 holes across the width. Just as has been
described with the '5-hole' tape, there were 'Shift In' and 'Shift Out'
codes to allow for switching between alphabetic and numeric code sequences.

On 16 January 2017 at 07:41, Randy Hudson  wrote:

> In article <0ef78383-f053-5127-1c69-daf5709a5...@acm.org> Joel Ewing
> wrote:
>
> > On 01/13/2017 02:21 PM, Tom Marchant wrote:
> >> On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 13:56:57 -0600, Mike Schwab wrote:
> >>
> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_tape
> >>> About 1974-75, I lived with my dad, manager of a Kroger store.  At
> >>> night he would insert various strips of punch film into a reader to
> >>> report the store's daily transactions.
> >> Well into the 1970's almost every mainframe shop used paper tape.
> >>
> >> What was it used for?
> >>
> > I would question the "almost every mainframe" part, unless you possibly
> > restrict consideration to non-IBM mainframes. IBM mainframes more
> > commonly used punched cards as input/output media, with punched tape
> > only available as a cheaper (and less capable) alternative to cards on
> > smaller systems.  Of the roughly 10 IBM systems I had contact with
> > during 1960's and 1970's, only one had paper tape I/O.
>
> He's referring to the carriage control tape that was used in lineprinters.
> It was not punched under mainframe control, but by operators, as part of
> helping the mainframe control the forms within the printer.
>
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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Randy Hudson]

In article <0ef78383-f053-5127-1c69-daf5709a5...@acm.org> Joel Ewing wrote:

> On 01/13/2017 02:21 PM, Tom Marchant wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 13:56:57 -0600, Mike Schwab wrote:
>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_tape
>>> About 1974-75, I lived with my dad, manager of a Kroger store.  At
>>> night he would insert various strips of punch film into a reader to
>>> report the store's daily transactions.
>> Well into the 1970's almost every mainframe shop used paper tape.
>>
>> What was it used for?
>>
> I would question the "almost every mainframe" part, unless you possibly
> restrict consideration to non-IBM mainframes. IBM mainframes more
> commonly used punched cards as input/output media, with punched tape
> only available as a cheaper (and less capable) alternative to cards on
> smaller systems.  Of the roughly 10 IBM systems I had contact with
> during 1960's and 1970's, only one had paper tape I/O. 

He's referring to the carriage control tape that was used in lineprinters. 
It was not punched under mainframe control, but by operators, as part of
helping the mainframe control the forms within the printer.

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Joel C. Ewing]

On 01/13/2017 02:21 PM, Tom Marchant wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 13:56:57 -0600, Mike Schwab wrote:
>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_tape
>> About 1974-75, I lived with my dad, manager of a Kroger store.  At
>> night he would insert various strips of punch film into a reader to
>> report the store's daily transactions.
> Well into the 1970's almost every mainframe shop used paper tape.
>
> What was it used for?
>
I would question the "almost every mainframe" part, unless you possibly
restrict consideration to non-IBM mainframes. IBM mainframes more
commonly used punched cards as input/output media, with punched tape
only available as a cheaper (and less capable) alternative to cards on
smaller systems.  Of the roughly 10 IBM systems I had contact with
during 1960's and 1970's, only one had paper tape I/O. 

The mechanical simplicity of feeding continuous paper tape vs complex
mechanisms to reliably feed individual cards, and having to sense or
punch a small number of channels on paper tape vs the 80 columns for a
card, surely made paper tape devices cheaper to design and build.

I suspect paper tape devices may have been more common on non-IBM
mainframes.  Unit record punched card equipment was the core of IBM's
business prior to manufacturing electronic computers, so at the
beginning of the computer age IBM would have already had the expertise
and patents for building reliable punched card equipment.   Other
vendors probably couldn't supply competitive card equipment at the time..
Joel C. Ewing


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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Nims,Alva John (Al)]

"Holey" ones! :-)

Al Nims
Systems Admin/Programmer 3
UFIT
University of Florida
(352) 273-1298

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Phil Smith
Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2017 10:28 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

My dad spent a lot of time in Czechoslovakia. His best friend there was an 
engineer, and used to do programming using a paper-tape machine-but they didn't 
have paper tape, so they'd use old movie film from Soviet movie industry. 
Always wondered what kinds of images were on those frames!


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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Bernd Oppolzer]

I guess, Konrad Zuse in the 1930s used movie film for controlling his 
machines, too.


The instructions were on the (movie film) tape, and by stepping the 
tape, the machine
executed the instructions on the tape. There were no control 
instructions, no conditional

branches (of course); only an instruction which stopped the machine.

You could "code a loop" by simply looping the tape :-)

Later Zuse machines in the 1950s of course had conditional instructions 
added and

all that stuff, and fetched their instructions from drum or core memory.

BTW: the Telefunken mainframe from the 1970s was boot loaded from paper 
tape
("Lochstreifen");  it contained the very first stages of the operating 
system.

When that (sort of) BIOS was installed, it fetched the other parts of the
operating system from a sort of fixed head disk called "Trommelspeicher".

On IBM mainframes of that time, they invented 8 inch floppy disks to do 
this,

if I recall correctly.

Kind regards

Bernd


Am 15.01.2017 um 04:27 schrieb Phil Smith:

My dad spent a lot of time in Czechoslovakia. His best friend there was an 
engineer, and used to do programming using a paper-tape machine-but they didn't 
have paper tape, so they'd use old movie film from Soviet movie industry. 
Always wondered what kinds of images were on those frames!


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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Phil Smith]

My dad spent a lot of time in Czechoslovakia. His best friend there was an 
engineer, and used to do programming using a paper-tape machine-but they didn't 
have paper tape, so they'd use old movie film from Soviet movie industry. 
Always wondered what kinds of images were on those frames!


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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Barry Merrill]

The submarine navy went a step further with the five hole TTY tape in a
system
called HARE - High (speed?) Radio (emission?) for both speed and security in
1964.

Connected to the Collins URC transmitter, each hole in a character caused a
transmission on a different HF frequency, and so there were a dozen receiver
sites
all around the world listening simultaneously for a signal on all five
frequencies
(that changed hourly) at 250 words per minute, and the messages were encoded
and
typically only 30-40 characters long, so the HARE transmission from the
submarine
was undetectable.  We tested south of Greenland and were copied by seven
receiver
sites on four continents. 

(And, yes, the HF antenna must be above the water to
transmit HF radio signals - a 30 foot vertical on the top of the snorkel
mast
works great.)

Barry Merrill

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Grinsell, Don
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 4:12 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

I remember using paper tape in high school in the mid-70's.  Punch cards in
college and my first job.  I joined the army in 1981.  I was eventually
assigned to a signal unit in 1984 and lo and behold I had paper tape again
in our radio teletype vans.  We transcribed the messages onto the tape and
then powered up the hf radio for a relatively shorter transmission window.
This was during the cold war and the theory was that if you were on air for
much longer than 30 seconds at a time our friends on the other side of the
iron curtain could triangulate your position and pretty much ruin your day.

"The power of accurate observation is often mistaken for cynicism by those
who have not got it."  -- George Bernard Shaw


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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Mark Regan]

I used paper tape when I was in the Navy from 1969 to 1979 and then into
the 1980's when I was in the Reserves. I was a CTO or
Cryptologic/Communications Technician Operator and we used paper tape with
the Teletype machines to send and receive messages within our communication
centers.



On Sat, Jan 14, 2017 at 3:13 AM Bernd Oppolzer <bernd.oppol...@t-online.de>
wrote:

> This German Wikipedia article about Lochstreifen (paper tape) has some
> nice pictures:
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lochstreifen#Lochstreifenstanzer
>
> and this is a PDF about the display peripherals of our Telefunken machine:
>
> ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/telefunken/tr440/doku/SIG100_SIG50_Mar1972.pdf
>
> you can see pictures of the text display SIG 50 and the graphics display
> SIG 100,
> which also had the world's first "computer mouse", the so-called
> Rollkugel, attached to it:
> http://www.oldmouse.com/mouse/misc/telefunken.shtml
>
> The article mentions the teletype Telefunken FSR 105 with a 5-hole paper
> tape,
> but I recall that at the Stuttgart installation there were General
> Electric teletypes
> with an 8-hole paper tape attached. I could not find pictures or
> descriptions of this type.
> I used this type regularly, when I was a student in Stuttgart from 1977 on;
> until the machine went out of service in 1981.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Bernd Oppolzer
>
>
> Am 13.01.2017 um 23:16 schrieb Bernd Oppolzer:
> > BTW: the teletypes were General Electric devices, and the paper tape
> > had 8 holes, not 5.
> > So every row on the tape could hold one 8-bit byte; I don't know what
> > coding it was.
> > The machine had neither ASCII nor EBCDIC; it was another special
> > Telefunken code (Zentralcode).
> >
> > The General Electric teletypes and the display terminals (text and
> > even vector graphic devices)
> > were not directly attached to the TR 440; there was a TR 86 S
> > satellite computer doing the I/O work.
> > This was in the late 1970s.
> >
> > Kind regards
> >
> > Bernd
> >
> >
> > Am 13.01.2017 um 23:05 schrieb Bernd Oppolzer:
> >> When I worked as a student at the university of Stuttgart, Germany
> >> with the Telefunken TR 440 mainframe, before I had access to the
> >> display terminals,
> >> I had to use the card punch (IBM 29, IIRC). But there were also some
> >> teletypes
> >> attached to the machine, which could be used for a time sharing
> >> dialog, and some
> >> of them had a paper tape reader/puncher attached.
> >>
> >> So you could use this paper tape in the following way:
> >>
> >> when finishing work on one day, you could print your source code to
> >> the teletype;
> >> before output starts, you switched on the paper tape punch, and this
> >> way you produced
> >> a paper tape of your source code. (You had to finish before 7.15 pm,
> >> that was GSP-ENDE,
> >> end of dialog, otherwise your work was lost).
> >>
> >> Next day, you used the paper tape to read your source code again into
> >> the machine
> >> via the same teletype.
> >>
> >> This was very convenient; the paper tape was much smaller than a big
> >> box of punched cards
> >> and you hadn't to wait for the operator to process your punched cards
> >> (which was closed shop).
> >> We didn't have access to the LFD (langfristige Datenhaltung = long
> >> term storage on disks etc)
> >> at that time.
> >>
> >> Kind regards
> >>
> >> Bernd
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Am 13.01.2017 um 22:26 schrieb Mike Myers:
> >>> For the education of the newbies, I'm going to take paper tape back
> >>> to the '60s. I was in the Air Force from 1960-1964 as an electronics
> >>> technician maintaining cryptographic equipment, some of which was
> >>> used with teletype equipment. Teletypes used a 5-bit code called
> >>> Baudot code. For those of you who have heard the term baud before,
> >>> it represented a single character in the Baudot code. There was a
> >>> specific code that shifted between letters and numbers/figures
> >>> modes, so that there could be more than 32 values represented.
> >>>
> >>> Messages could be punched onto a paper tape from a keyboard and then
> >>> later transmitted through a tape reader into a communications link.
> >>> Or, on the receiving end, a message could either be printed by a
> >>> teletype or punched into

Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Bernd Oppolzer]

This German Wikipedia article about Lochstreifen (paper tape) has some 
nice pictures:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lochstreifen#Lochstreifenstanzer

and this is a PDF about the display peripherals of our Telefunken machine:
ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/telefunken/tr440/doku/SIG100_SIG50_Mar1972.pdf

you can see pictures of the text display SIG 50 and the graphics display 
SIG 100,
which also had the world's first "computer mouse", the so-called 
Rollkugel, attached to it:

http://www.oldmouse.com/mouse/misc/telefunken.shtml

The article mentions the teletype Telefunken FSR 105 with a 5-hole paper 
tape,
but I recall that at the Stuttgart installation there were General 
Electric teletypes
with an 8-hole paper tape attached. I could not find pictures or 
descriptions of this type.

I used this type regularly, when I was a student in Stuttgart from 1977 on;
until the machine went out of service in 1981.

Kind regards

Bernd Oppolzer


Am 13.01.2017 um 23:16 schrieb Bernd Oppolzer:
BTW: the teletypes were General Electric devices, and the paper tape 
had 8 holes, not 5.
So every row on the tape could hold one 8-bit byte; I don't know what 
coding it was.
The machine had neither ASCII nor EBCDIC; it was another special 
Telefunken code (Zentralcode).


The General Electric teletypes and the display terminals (text and 
even vector graphic devices)
were not directly attached to the TR 440; there was a TR 86 S 
satellite computer doing the I/O work.

This was in the late 1970s.

Kind regards

Bernd


Am 13.01.2017 um 23:05 schrieb Bernd Oppolzer:

When I worked as a student at the university of Stuttgart, Germany
with the Telefunken TR 440 mainframe, before I had access to the 
display terminals,
I had to use the card punch (IBM 29, IIRC). But there were also some 
teletypes
attached to the machine, which could be used for a time sharing 
dialog, and some

of them had a paper tape reader/puncher attached.

So you could use this paper tape in the following way:

when finishing work on one day, you could print your source code to 
the teletype;
before output starts, you switched on the paper tape punch, and this 
way you produced
a paper tape of your source code. (You had to finish before 7.15 pm, 
that was GSP-ENDE,

end of dialog, otherwise your work was lost).

Next day, you used the paper tape to read your source code again into 
the machine

via the same teletype.

This was very convenient; the paper tape was much smaller than a big 
box of punched cards
and you hadn't to wait for the operator to process your punched cards 
(which was closed shop).
We didn't have access to the LFD (langfristige Datenhaltung = long 
term storage on disks etc)

at that time.

Kind regards

Bernd



Am 13.01.2017 um 22:26 schrieb Mike Myers:
For the education of the newbies, I'm going to take paper tape back 
to the '60s. I was in the Air Force from 1960-1964 as an electronics 
technician maintaining cryptographic equipment, some of which was 
used with teletype equipment. Teletypes used a 5-bit code called 
Baudot code. For those of you who have heard the term baud before, 
it represented a single character in the Baudot code. There was a 
specific code that shifted between letters and numbers/figures 
modes, so that there could be more than 32 values represented.


Messages could be punched onto a paper tape from a keyboard and then 
later transmitted through a tape reader into a communications link. 
Or, on the receiving end, a message could either be printed by a 
teletype or punched into a paper tape for further transmission or 
later printing. The technology was eventually used with early 
computers, as you are hearing here.


Mike Myers
Mentor Services Corporation

On 01/13/2017 03:35 PM, David W Noon wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 14:21:58 -0600, Tom Marchant
(000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu) wrote about "Paper 
tape

(was Re: Hidden Figures)" (in
<3742476116017335.wa.m42tomibmmainyahoo@listserv.ua.edu>):


On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 13:56:57 -0600, Mike Schwab wrote:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_tape
About 1974-75, I lived with my dad, manager of a Kroger store.  At
night he would insert various strips of punch film into a reader to
report the store's daily transactions.

Well into the 1970's almost every mainframe shop used paper tape.

What was it used for?
In the mid 1970s I was working for a multi-national chemical 
company in

Melbourne, Australia. We had 2 paper tape readers and 1 paper tape
punch. They were used mostly for threatening young programmers who 
spoke

derisively about punched cards. ... :-)


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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Edward Gould]

> On Jan 13, 2017, at 2:21 PM, Tom Marchant 
> <000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 13:56:57 -0600, Mike Schwab wrote:
> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_tape
>> About 1974-75, I lived with my dad, manager of a Kroger store.  At
>> night he would insert various strips of punch film into a reader to
>> report the store's daily transactions.
> 
> Well into the 1970's almost every mainframe shop used paper tape.
> 
> What was it used for?

I have been in the mainframe since 1969 and I don’t ever remember paper tape, 
whether it was for the 1401 or the 7070 or the 360.
I must have missed it but I don’t think so.
Ed
> 
> -- 
> Tom Marchant
> 
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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Edward Finnell]

Early 029. Course when I got back to class. Could I please program the 029  
to do tabbing and verification for data entry folks?  I guess-might have to 
 rip a few drums out of the keypunch lab, but they don't need them.
 
 
In a message dated 1/13/2017 5:53:21 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu writes:

Early  029 or late 026 era?


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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Vince Coen]

Paper tape was there you just did not see it unless you was an operator.

If no where else it was on the printers for channel control.
This admittedly was wider than the normal 8 channel tape for many of the 
newer printers.


Tape was used for very small updates (well at least by me) to a program 
source as this was quicker than sending to the punch room for processing 
that usually cost 1 - 2 days depending on site.


Oh, this was in the 60's and possibly early 70's when it started dying 
out but many sites did not through them away.


Luckily the tape hand punches you could just leave it in your desk or 
put it in the pocket when leaving for the day if you wanted to do some 
mods after dinner.


The portable card punch was sightly bigger :)  - more a case of putting 
it into your (brief) case with some blank cards but no printing facility 
of course - for that you had to visit the punch room and use one of the 
URCs (Unit Record devises) that read them and printed content along the top.


Sorry for that - I go back a bit :)


Vince


On 13/01/17 20:25, Carmen Vitullo wrote:

First time I saw paper tape was in school, Vo-Tech, UNIVAC system in 1974-75, 
once in the real world starting @ Sears in 1977 never saw paper tape again and 
not since, lots of cards no paper tape .




- Original Message -

From: "Tom Marchant" <000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 2:21:58 PM
Subject: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 13:56:57 -0600, Mike Schwab wrote:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_tape
About 1974-75, I lived with my dad, manager of a Kroger store. At
night he would insert various strips of punch film into a reader to
report the store's daily transactions.

Well into the 1970's almost every mainframe shop used paper tape.

What was it used for?



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Re: Memories (was: RE: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 23:44:51 +, Lester, Bob wrote:

>   Dartmouth?  I got into quite a bit of trouble when I got a little 
> over-familiar with the DTSS system at Dartmouth - one connected to the USMMA 
> (among others, I think).  This was around 1975/6.
>
>   Crashed it once (via acoustic modem in the library on-campus).  Couldn't 
> believe it happened, so of course I did it again.  Then I ran away - I was 16 
> years old!
>
>   Been hooked on IT ever since.  :-)
>
Sometimes operators would neglect disabling command escape on Hayes-compatible
modems, and with a carefully timed data stream I could take control of the modem
and dial out.

-- gil

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[William Donzelli]

(mostly dumb trivia follows)

> Anyone ever play with fanfold paper tape?

As far as I know, IBM products "never"* used fanfold paper tape, but
rather spools. The 1620 had a big paper tape reader, as did the 1130
and 1800 minicomputers. Interesting, when the System/7 came out, IBM
just rebadged ASR33s from Teletype, calling them 5028s.

When I was digging out the remains of a surplus place in Los Alamos
(the infamous Black Hole), some of the items that I found were a pair
of IBM 870 systems. These are "Steampunk Wordprocessors", built on a
026 keypunch. Each 870 has a paper tape reader, paper tape punch, card
reader and punch, plus a model B typewriter. All this fun, with tubes,
relays, plugboards, blinkenlights, cards, and tapes, were used to
convert data from the labs various minicomputer paper tape reels to
something that could be turned into fancy looking lab reports. I also
found an 047 - basically a paper tape to card converter, also made on
an 026 chassis. These were used, somewhat like with the 870s, to
convert the various labs minicomputer output paper tapes to something
the 7094 could understand - cards.

There was a S/360 channel connected paper tape reader as well, whose
number escapes me right now. There is at least one in preservation
now.

--
Will, happy because I just took delivery of a 3880.

* Start the countdown to when someone brings up an example to prove I am wrong!

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 18:23:13 -0500, Randy Hudson wrote:

>In article <1b40a37.6eb3673.45aab...@aol.com> Edward Finnell wrote:
>
>> I started at Southern Bell Co-op student in '66 on a 33ASR writing Basic
>> Programs on I think it was a GE635 at one of the Banks in Atlanta.
>
>BASIC?  I think Dartmouth BASIC was created around 1964, but I didn't
>realize it was used in banking by 1966.
>
>> There were eight holes but the 4th from left was the sprocket feed.  If
>> you put the tape in upside down it would saw it in two.
>
>As I recall it, there were 8 possible holes punched, and a smaller
>pinfeed/timing hole, on the ASR-33.  In theory, the 8th data hole was to be
>used for parity, though the ASR-33 punched 7-bit ASCII plus an always-on 8th
>bit by default.
>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletype_Model_33
>>
IIRC, and wikipedia seems to confirm, TTY-33 automatically generated even parity
automatically.  One could cause incorrect parity by pressing too many modifier
keys (SHIFT, CTRL?) simultaneously.  Some 8-bit UARTs used that 8th bit as a
DATA READY flag, thus the "always-on" perception.  It would have taken at least
one more instruction to clear it.

For transmitting, the TTY-33 used wall electric power only to turn a motor;
everything else was mechanical, or powered by the data lines.

>> One of my early adventures was converting the Long lines accounting tapes
>> to punch cards on an 029. It was like cloak and dagger as to what pins did
>> what.  We couldn't show the IBM guy our manual and he couldn't show  us his.
>> After  a couple of attempts cooler heads prevailed and the IBM guy says I'm
>> going  for coffee and left his 029 manual open to the pin-out diagram. When
>> he came  back the 029 was punching cards.
>
Early 029 or late 026 era?

-- gil

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Memories (was: RE: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Lester, Bob]

   Dartmouth?  I got into quite a bit of trouble when I got a little 
over-familiar with the DTSS system at Dartmouth - one connected to the USMMA 
(among others, I think).  This was around 1975/6.

   Crashed it once (via acoustic modem in the library on-campus).  Couldn't 
believe it happened, so of course I did it again.  Then I ran away - I was 16 
years old!

   Been hooked on IT ever since.  :-)



-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Randy Hudson
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 4:23 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures) [ EXTERNAL ]

In article <1b40a37.6eb3673.45aab...@aol.com> Edward Finnell wrote:

> I started at Southern Bell Co-op student in '66 on a 33ASR writing 
> Basic Programs on I think it was a GE635 at one of the Banks in Atlanta.

BASIC?  I think Dartmouth BASIC was created around 1964, but I didn't realize 
it was used in banking by 1966.

> There were eight holes but the 4th from left was the sprocket feed.  
> If you put the tape in upside down it would saw it in two.

As I recall it, there were 8 possible holes punched, and a smaller 
pinfeed/timing hole, on the ASR-33.  In theory, the 8th data hole was to be 
used for parity, though the ASR-33 punched 7-bit ASCII plus an always-on 8th 
bit by default.

> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_
> wiki_Teletype-5FModel-5F33=DwIBAg=huW-Z3760n7oNORvLCN2eJBo4X7nIGCr
> 9Ffht-z0f4k=1KMMjoSvFEwY7ZoooplFIrKcOeeTJVI4X6Bc3o6vdK4=kVCgDps0-z
> Q_PgVOgTYcH2hhSyrSUC6hqtn2c7LhGKw=edf8PxGckeFHoBiQoRMbB71aPvISLFKRk3
> V7LJDB4hY=
>  
> One of my early adventures was converting the Long lines accounting 
> tapes to punch cards on an 029. It was like cloak and dagger as to 
> what pins did what.  We couldn't show the IBM guy our manual and he couldn't 
> show  us his.
> After  a couple of attempts cooler heads prevailed and the IBM guy 
> says I'm going  for coffee and left his 029 manual open to the pin-out 
> diagram. When he came  back the 029 was punching cards.

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Charles Mills]

Ticker Tape is different. No holes. Stock prices printed on it. You know those 
stock price "crawlers" on TV, at your broker's, and in Times Square? Those are 
a simulation of ticker tape. Picture that stock crawler printed on paper tape 
-- that's ticker tape. The printing device was called a Ticker because of the 
noise it made. You seem them in old photos.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticker_tape 

Charles

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Gibney, Dave
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 2:36 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

Parades in New York. Called Ticker Tape.

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Edward Finnell]

Don't remember the specifics. I was in the engineering department and we  
were using Basic to calculate analog multiplexor settings. The computer was 
in  Atlanta with an agreement with AT long lines for access via acoustic  
coupler.
 
That summer went on an ACM tour of UAB cardio unit and they had folks  in 
ICU hooked up to 1800's real time. Claimed it decreased recovery time by 60%. 
 I was smitten. 
 
 
In a message dated 1/13/2017 5:23:23 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
i...@panix.com writes:

BASIC?  I think Dartmouth BASIC was created around 1964, but I  didn't
realize it was used in banking by  1966.


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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Randy Hudson]

In article <1b40a37.6eb3673.45aab...@aol.com> Edward Finnell wrote:

> I started at Southern Bell Co-op student in '66 on a 33ASR writing Basic
> Programs on I think it was a GE635 at one of the Banks in Atlanta.

BASIC?  I think Dartmouth BASIC was created around 1964, but I didn't
realize it was used in banking by 1966.

> There were eight holes but the 4th from left was the sprocket feed.  If
> you put the tape in upside down it would saw it in two.

As I recall it, there were 8 possible holes punched, and a smaller
pinfeed/timing hole, on the ASR-33.  In theory, the 8th data hole was to be
used for parity, though the ASR-33 punched 7-bit ASCII plus an always-on 8th
bit by default.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletype_Model_33
>  
> One of my early adventures was converting the Long lines accounting tapes  
> to punch cards on an 029. It was like cloak and dagger as to what pins did 
> what.  We couldn't show the IBM guy our manual and he couldn't show  us his. 
> After  a couple of attempts cooler heads prevailed and the IBM guy says I'm 
> going  for coffee and left his 029 manual open to the pin-out diagram. When 
> he came  back the 029 was punching cards. 

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Edward Finnell]

I started at Southern Bell Co-op student in '66 on a 33ASR writing Basic  
Programs on I think it was a GE635
at one of the Banks in Atlanta. There were eight holes but the 4th from  
left was the sprocket feed. If you put the tape in upside down it would saw it 
 in two.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletype_Model_33
 
One of my early adventures was converting the Long lines accounting tapes  
to punch cards on an 029. It was like cloak and dagger as to what pins did 
what.  We couldn't show the IBM guy our manual and he couldn't show  us his. 
After  a couple of attempts cooler heads prevailed and the IBM guy says I'm 
going  for coffee and left his 029 manual open to the pin-out diagram. When 
he came  back the 029 was punching cards. 
 
 
In a message dated 1/13/2017 4:17:08 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
bernd.oppol...@t-online.de writes:

So every  row on the tape could hold one 8-bit byte; I don't know what 
coding it  was.


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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Gibney, Dave]

Parades in New York. Called Ticker Tape.

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU]
> On Behalf Of Tom Marchant
> Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 12:22 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)
> 
> On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 13:56:57 -0600, Mike Schwab wrote:
> 
> >https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-
> 3A__en.wikipedia.org_w
> >iki_Punched-
> 5Ftape=DgIFaQ=C3yme8gMkxg_ihJNXS06ZyWk4EJm8LdrrvxQb-Je7
> >sw=u9g8rUevBoyCPAdo5sWE9w=HjszhDuu-mtwbfAgGo8df0rkg-
> 8gtAsoAib2IrgRB
> >6E=S5587Pe4jItOcn-dNPkEk0jiyRrrA5qYMV70dPE2MqI=
> >About 1974-75, I lived with my dad, manager of a Kroger store.  At
> >night he would insert various strips of punch film into a reader to
> >report the store's daily transactions.
> 
> Well into the 1970's almost every mainframe shop used paper tape.
> 
> What was it used for?
> 
> --
> Tom Marchant
> 
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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Bernd Oppolzer]

BTW: the teletypes were General Electric devices, and the paper tape had 
8 holes, not 5.
So every row on the tape could hold one 8-bit byte; I don't know what 
coding it was.
The machine had neither ASCII nor EBCDIC; it was another special 
Telefunken code (Zentralcode).


The General Electric teletypes and the display terminals (text and even 
vector graphic devices)
were not directly attached to the TR 440; there was a TR 86 S satellite 
computer doing the I/O work.

This was in the late 1970s.

Kind regards

Bernd


Am 13.01.2017 um 23:05 schrieb Bernd Oppolzer:

When I worked as a student at the university of Stuttgart, Germany
with the Telefunken TR 440 mainframe, before I had access to the 
display terminals,
I had to use the card punch (IBM 29, IIRC). But there were also some 
teletypes
attached to the machine, which could be used for a time sharing 
dialog, and some

of them had a paper tape reader/puncher attached.

So you could use this paper tape in the following way:

when finishing work on one day, you could print your source code to 
the teletype;
before output starts, you switched on the paper tape punch, and this 
way you produced
a paper tape of your source code. (You had to finish before 7.15 pm, 
that was GSP-ENDE,

end of dialog, otherwise your work was lost).

Next day, you used the paper tape to read your source code again into 
the machine

via the same teletype.

This was very convenient; the paper tape was much smaller than a big 
box of punched cards
and you hadn't to wait for the operator to process your punched cards 
(which was closed shop).
We didn't have access to the LFD (langfristige Datenhaltung = long 
term storage on disks etc)

at that time.

Kind regards

Bernd



Am 13.01.2017 um 22:26 schrieb Mike Myers:
For the education of the newbies, I'm going to take paper tape back 
to the '60s. I was in the Air Force from 1960-1964 as an electronics 
technician maintaining cryptographic equipment, some of which was 
used with teletype equipment. Teletypes used a 5-bit code called 
Baudot code. For those of you who have heard the term baud before, it 
represented a single character in the Baudot code. There was a 
specific code that shifted between letters and numbers/figures modes, 
so that there could be more than 32 values represented.


Messages could be punched onto a paper tape from a keyboard and then 
later transmitted through a tape reader into a communications link. 
Or, on the receiving end, a message could either be printed by a 
teletype or punched into a paper tape for further transmission or 
later printing. The technology was eventually used with early 
computers, as you are hearing here.


Mike Myers
Mentor Services Corporation

On 01/13/2017 03:35 PM, David W Noon wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 14:21:58 -0600, Tom Marchant
(000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu) wrote about "Paper 
tape

(was Re: Hidden Figures)" (in
<3742476116017335.wa.m42tomibmmainyahoo@listserv.ua.edu>):


On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 13:56:57 -0600, Mike Schwab wrote:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_tape
About 1974-75, I lived with my dad, manager of a Kroger store.  At
night he would insert various strips of punch film into a reader to
report the store's daily transactions.

Well into the 1970's almost every mainframe shop used paper tape.

What was it used for?

In the mid 1970s I was working for a multi-national chemical company in
Melbourne, Australia. We had 2 paper tape readers and 1 paper tape
punch. They were used mostly for threatening young programmers who 
spoke

derisively about punched cards. ... :-)


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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Grinsell, Don]

I remember using paper tape in high school in the mid-70's.  Punch cards in 
college and my first job.  I joined the army in 1981.  I was eventually 
assigned to a signal unit in 1984 and lo and behold I had paper tape again in 
our radio teletype vans.  We transcribed the messages onto the tape and then 
powered up the hf radio for a relatively shorter transmission window.  This was 
during the cold war and the theory was that if you were on air for much longer 
than 30 seconds at a time our friends on the other side of the iron curtain 
could triangulate your position and pretty much ruin your day.

"The power of accurate observation is often mistaken for cynicism by those who 
have not got it."  -- George Bernard Shaw


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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Barry Merrill]

 + 2 and print 4,
  and I decided I would program the calculation of the determinant on
  this new toy. I spent several hours each day, with no one else
  entering the computer room, and by Saturday afternoon, I had punched
  my program, had printed it, and was now ready to actually run my first
  computer program.  As I watched the nearly 30 feet of paper tape whir
  thru the reader on the 610, its panel of nixie tubes flickered with
  the address numbers.  I recall crossing my arms and thinking "Wow, it
  is 1959, I am a sophomore at Notre Dame, and I am running a real
  program on a digital computer".  The paper tape came to its end, the
  printer came alive, and I received my first computer output; four
  characters were printed, and the Selectric shut down:
 WOW!
  Of course, I didn't have the slightest idea of what was wrong, or how
  to debug, so I remained in the computer room until after midnight
  Saturday, then were back at 7am on Sunday, and finally, that senior,
  (who, I'm very sorry to say, never gave his name, and I never saw him
  again) happened by, and he examined the problem with me.  He
  discovered that I had kind of completely missed the difference between
  "program" and "data", and that the first punch in the tape was a
  control character that put the 610 in a scan mode to read the tape
  until another control character was found, and that in the fifth from
  end position it found a control character that changed the mode from
  "scan" to "print" the characters on the tape, interpreting them as
  machine instructions, and what had been printed out were the last four
  computer instructions in my program:
W=Carriage Return,
O=Line Feed,
W= Carriage Return,
!=Print Accumulator!
  (I had found the IBM recommendation to use two carriage returns to
  ensure that the very slow print head on the Selectric was all the way
  back to the left margin before printing a result!).

  Fortunately, by late on Monday, I had actually figured out how to run
  the program, and successfully computed the value of the 4x4
  determinant, and on Tuesday (I think Sept 29, 1959) I submitted the
  very first EE laboratory report at Notre Dame that used a digital
  computer.  While the report was accepted, (and correct), I saw nothing
  but chagrin in that professor's face, and as I was never encouraged by
  him or anyone else on the faculty, that was also my last use of a
  computer while at Notre Dame.


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Mike Myers
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 3:26 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

For the education of the newbies, I'm going to take paper tape back to the 
'60s. I was in the Air Force from 1960-1964 as an electronics technician 
maintaining cryptographic equipment, some of which was used with teletype 
equipment. Teletypes used a 5-bit code called Baudot code. 
For those of you who have heard the term baud before, it represented a single 
character in the Baudot code. There was a specific code that shifted between 
letters and numbers/figures modes, so that there could be more than 32 values 
represented.

Messages could be punched onto a paper tape from a keyboard and then later 
transmitted through a tape reader into a communications link. Or, on the 
receiving end, a message could either be printed by a teletype or punched into 
a paper tape for further transmission or later printing. 
The technology was eventually used with early computers, as you are hearing 
here.

Mike Myers
Mentor Services Corporation

On 01/13/2017 03:35 PM, David W Noon wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 14:21:58 -0600, Tom Marchant
> (000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu) wrote about "Paper 
> tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)" (in
> <3742476116017335.wa.m42tomibmmainyahoo@listserv.ua.edu>):
>
>> On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 13:56:57 -0600, Mike Schwab wrote:
>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_tape
>>> About 1974-75, I lived with my dad, manager of a Kroger store.  At 
>>> night he would insert various strips of punch film into a reader to 
>>> report the store's daily transactions.
>> Well into the 1970's almost every mainframe shop used paper tape.
>>
>> What was it used for?
> In the mid 1970s I was working for a multi-national chemical company 
> in Melbourne, Australia. We had 2 paper tape readers and 1 paper tape 
> punch. They were used mostly for threatening young programmers who 
> spoke derisively about punched cards. ... :-)

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Bernd Oppolzer]

When I worked as a student at the university of Stuttgart, Germany
with the Telefunken TR 440 mainframe, before I had access to the display 
terminals,
I had to use the card punch (IBM 29, IIRC). But there were also some 
teletypes
attached to the machine, which could be used for a time sharing dialog, 
and some

of them had a paper tape reader/puncher attached.

So you could use this paper tape in the following way:

when finishing work on one day, you could print your source code to the 
teletype;
before output starts, you switched on the paper tape punch, and this way 
you produced
a paper tape of your source code. (You had to finish before 7.15 pm, 
that was GSP-ENDE,

end of dialog, otherwise your work was lost).

Next day, you used the paper tape to read your source code again into 
the machine

via the same teletype.

This was very convenient; the paper tape was much smaller than a big box 
of punched cards
and you hadn't to wait for the operator to process your punched cards 
(which was closed shop).
We didn't have access to the LFD (langfristige Datenhaltung = long term 
storage on disks etc)

at that time.

Kind regards

Bernd



Am 13.01.2017 um 22:26 schrieb Mike Myers:
For the education of the newbies, I'm going to take paper tape back to 
the '60s. I was in the Air Force from 1960-1964 as an electronics 
technician maintaining cryptographic equipment, some of which was used 
with teletype equipment. Teletypes used a 5-bit code called Baudot 
code. For those of you who have heard the term baud before, it 
represented a single character in the Baudot code. There was a 
specific code that shifted between letters and numbers/figures modes, 
so that there could be more than 32 values represented.


Messages could be punched onto a paper tape from a keyboard and then 
later transmitted through a tape reader into a communications link. 
Or, on the receiving end, a message could either be printed by a 
teletype or punched into a paper tape for further transmission or 
later printing. The technology was eventually used with early 
computers, as you are hearing here.


Mike Myers
Mentor Services Corporation

On 01/13/2017 03:35 PM, David W Noon wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 14:21:58 -0600, Tom Marchant
(000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu) wrote about "Paper tape
(was Re: Hidden Figures)" (in
<3742476116017335.wa.m42tomibmmainyahoo@listserv.ua.edu>):


On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 13:56:57 -0600, Mike Schwab wrote:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_tape
About 1974-75, I lived with my dad, manager of a Kroger store.  At
night he would insert various strips of punch film into a reader to
report the store's daily transactions.

Well into the 1970's almost every mainframe shop used paper tape.

What was it used for?

In the mid 1970s I was working for a multi-national chemical company in
Melbourne, Australia. We had 2 paper tape readers and 1 paper tape
punch. They were used mostly for threatening young programmers who spoke
derisively about punched cards. ... :-)


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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Martin Packer]

Anyone ever play with fanfold paper tape?

I did, between school and university. I guess you'd call it a gap year job,
nowadays. :-)

Anyhow, lots of fun to be had with diskette box lids being used to catch
the paper tape as it passed through the reader. If it missed the box the
stuff arced across the room.

We used it to take compiled object code produced by a Data General Nova /
Eclipse dualed pair and load it into one of the Membrain automatic tester
rigs. (I got myself a job as a programmer for Membrain in Ferndown,
Dorset.)

Happy times

Sent from my iPad

> On 13 Jan 2017, at 21:33, Tom Marchant
<000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 20:35:40 +, David W Noon
<david.w.n...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 14:21:58 -0600, Tom Marchant
>> (000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu) wrote about "Paper tape
>> (was Re: Hidden Figures)"
>
>>> Well into the 1970's almost every mainframe shop used paper tape.
>>>
>>> What was it used for?
>>
>> In the mid 1970s I was working for a multi-national chemical company in
>> Melbourne, Australia. We had 2 paper tape readers and 1 paper tape
>> punch. They were used mostly for threatening young programmers who spoke
>> derisively about punched cards. ... :-)
>
> I was thinking of something far more ubiquitous. Every shop used them.
>
> --
> Tom Marchant
>
> --
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Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU


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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Tom Marchant]

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 20:35:40 +, David W Noon <david.w.n...@googlemail.com> 
wrote:

>On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 14:21:58 -0600, Tom Marchant
>(000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu) wrote about "Paper tape
>(was Re: Hidden Figures)" 

>> Well into the 1970's almost every mainframe shop used paper tape.
>>
>> What was it used for?
>
>In the mid 1970s I was working for a multi-national chemical company in
>Melbourne, Australia. We had 2 paper tape readers and 1 paper tape
>punch. They were used mostly for threatening young programmers who spoke
>derisively about punched cards. ... :-)

I was thinking of something far more ubiquitous. Every shop used them.

-- 
Tom Marchant

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Mike Myers]

For the education of the newbies, I'm going to take paper tape back to 
the '60s. I was in the Air Force from 1960-1964 as an electronics 
technician maintaining cryptographic equipment, some of which was used 
with teletype equipment. Teletypes used a 5-bit code called Baudot code. 
For those of you who have heard the term baud before, it represented a 
single character in the Baudot code. There was a specific code that 
shifted between letters and numbers/figures modes, so that there could 
be more than 32 values represented.


Messages could be punched onto a paper tape from a keyboard and then 
later transmitted through a tape reader into a communications link. Or, 
on the receiving end, a message could either be printed by a teletype or 
punched into a paper tape for further transmission or later printing. 
The technology was eventually used with early computers, as you are 
hearing here.


Mike Myers
Mentor Services Corporation

On 01/13/2017 03:35 PM, David W Noon wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 14:21:58 -0600, Tom Marchant
(000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu) wrote about "Paper tape
(was Re: Hidden Figures)" (in
<3742476116017335.wa.m42tomibmmainyahoo@listserv.ua.edu>):


On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 13:56:57 -0600, Mike Schwab wrote:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_tape
About 1974-75, I lived with my dad, manager of a Kroger store.  At
night he would insert various strips of punch film into a reader to
report the store's daily transactions.

Well into the 1970's almost every mainframe shop used paper tape.

What was it used for?

In the mid 1970s I was working for a multi-national chemical company in
Melbourne, Australia. We had 2 paper tape readers and 1 paper tape
punch. They were used mostly for threatening young programmers who spoke
derisively about punched cards. ... :-)


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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[David W Noon]

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 14:21:58 -0600, Tom Marchant
(000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu) wrote about "Paper tape
(was Re: Hidden Figures)" (in
<3742476116017335.wa.m42tomibmmainyahoo@listserv.ua.edu>):

> On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 13:56:57 -0600, Mike Schwab wrote:
> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_tape
>> About 1974-75, I lived with my dad, manager of a Kroger store.  At
>> night he would insert various strips of punch film into a reader to
>> report the store's daily transactions.
> 
> Well into the 1970's almost every mainframe shop used paper tape.
> 
> What was it used for?

In the mid 1970s I was working for a multi-national chemical company in
Melbourne, Australia. We had 2 paper tape readers and 1 paper tape
punch. They were used mostly for threatening young programmers who spoke
derisively about punched cards. ... :-)
-- 
Regards,

Dave  [RLU #314465]
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
david.w.n...@googlemail.com (David W Noon)
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

 

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[PINION, RICHARD W.]

Watch the opening scenes from the movie Colossus for a walk 
down memory lane. 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Tom Marchant
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 3:22 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 13:56:57 -0600, Mike Schwab wrote:

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_tape
>About 1974-75, I lived with my dad, manager of a Kroger store.  At 
>night he would insert various strips of punch film into a reader to 
>report the store's daily transactions.

Well into the 1970's almost every mainframe shop used paper tape.

What was it used for?

--
Tom Marchant

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Re: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures)

[Carmen Vitullo]

First time I saw paper tape was in school, Vo-Tech, UNIVAC system in 1974-75, 
once in the real world starting @ Sears in 1977 never saw paper tape again and 
not since, lots of cards no paper tape . 




- Original Message -

From: "Tom Marchant" <000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> 
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 2:21:58 PM 
Subject: Paper tape (was Re: Hidden Figures) 

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 13:56:57 -0600, Mike Schwab wrote: 

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_tape 
>About 1974-75, I lived with my dad, manager of a Kroger store. At 
>night he would insert various strips of punch film into a reader to 
>report the store's daily transactions. 

Well into the 1970's almost every mainframe shop used paper tape. 

What was it used for? 

-- 
Tom Marchant 

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