Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
On Wed, 23 Aug 2023, at 21:59, David Crayford wrote: >You are never too old to learn new things. Cognitive decline happens with illness and/or age. Don't assume it won't happen to you too. There comes a point where although one could make a huge effort to learn new ways of doing old things, it's not worth it. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
Whoosh! You're still missing the point that what matters is the other end of the connection, and whether the user-facing side can handle character events determines whether vi can respond to characters in (near) real time. SSH carries traffic for other protocols, e.g., SFTP. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 5:12 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone) > On 24 Aug 2023, at 5:04 am, Seymour J Metz wrote: > > It's not relevant where vi is running; what's relevant is what's on the other > end of the pipe. If it's a 3270, real or simulated, then it's block mode, > with all of its pluses and minuses. If it's, e.g., Telnet with a VT100 > profile, then vi can respond to keystrokes in (almost) real time. I already made the point that Vim is running over SSH so take 3270 and Telnet out of the discussion. 3270 was designed for networks in the dark ages. ISPF is still a brilliant platform but it’s no match for ncurses applications that can now leverage cool unicode fonts and other stuff. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of > David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 4:17 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone) > > On 24/8/2023 3:51 am, Seymour J Metz wrote: >> Sure, but where are the data coming from? If it's a block-mode terminal on >> one end of the SSH session, then you have the same issue. If it's a PC on >> one end of the signal then it can send individual characters. The Devil is >> in the details. >> > It's running in a Docker container on a headless server. The only > involvement of the PC is the terminal emulator which is not doing > anything special other then rendering. Vim works just as well running on > z/OS. > > >> -- >> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >> >> >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of >> David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 3:35 PM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone) >> >>> On 23 Aug 2023, at 10:45 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote: >>> >>>> Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros >>> On a PC it's easy to examine every keystroke as it comes in >> PC? That’s running in a Linux shell over SSH. Vim doesn’t need to run on a >> PC for full duplex. It’s a nurses application. >> >> >> -- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> -- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
I've compiled post-install scripts for ArcaOS and Linux that pull a lot from
repositories; except for having to add a line to the scripts, I don't mentally
distinguish "on the DVD" from "in the standard repositories." There's still
stuff that isn't in the openSUSE LEAP repositories, but most of what I want is.
There's a lot that I want to learn when I get a round tuit.
On the language front I'll probably test drive an IDE each time I learn a new
language. Right now I'm thinking of
Java
Python
Ruby
but there are others that might be fun to play with.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Tomasz Rola [rto...@ceti.com.pl]
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 7:07 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
On Wed, Aug 23, 2023 at 10:44:08AM +, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> > Maybe people say so because they expected something else.
>
> "Humor is such a subjective thing!" (B5). My guess is that the quip
> came from an emacs user who was perfectly content with it.
I sensed humor there, but, well... More like sarcasm, rather.
> > Anyway, if you have a decent installation of emacs
>
> Is there a popular distribution of Linux that doesn't have emacs
> either in the base or in its repositories?
Probably no such distro, if popular belongs to one of {Debian, Gentoo,
Slackware, SUSE, RedHat}, or one of their close derivatives.
In case of smaller distro - GRML is one. Nowadays "smaller" means
"fits into CD", or 1GB pendrive. They include ed, forgot about cal. No
emacs, but plenty of interpreters, two gcc's, rudimentary x11 and
browser, antivirus, some other tools. GRML is rescue-cd, I use it to
test if my laptops have what I paid for, and for, er, rescue.
OTOH, I am typing this on ParrotOS (Debian derivative, oriented
towards security, pentest and forensics tasks - I am parroting from
their homepage and I really have no idea what it is) and AFAIR the
default install did not have ed... it is in repos, just not included
in installation image, while umpty-megabytes of visual environment
was, and some "codium" - many megs of dead weight (by which I mean, it
must be useful for somebody else) - was included by default during
postinstall phase... I installed ed because I wanted to experiment a
bit. No problem. I deinstalled (vs)codium (some kind of visual studio
cousin) because I do not want to experiment with this. No problem... I
just noticed that times have changed - some years ago /bin/ed and
/usr/bin/cal were both small and expected to be there (60 kbytes for
ed package and about 1mb for gcal, a modern cal rewrite). Now folks
have no place for this. I remember I had to install few more small
packages to make my parrot usable. Well, good to have it in repos,
good to know what I need.
As of emacs in ParrotOS, they had it in repos, but not as decent as I
wanted. Binaries+compiled ELisp in one package and sources for ELisp
files in another, but I have not found (so far) a package containing
info files with manuals. So I downloaded sources, compiled with
minimal options and installed in some non-relevant dir, this brought
me info files there, and entered INFOPATH variable with some dir into
a script I use to start emacs (I use scripts to start various
complicated programs, I find it less complicated than click-and-pray).
As you can see, everything was in there but it still was fun to make
any use of it :-).
--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola
--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
--
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Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
On Wed, Aug 23, 2023 at 10:44:08AM +, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> > Maybe people say so because they expected something else.
>
> "Humor is such a subjective thing!" (B5). My guess is that the quip
> came from an emacs user who was perfectly content with it.
I sensed humor there, but, well... More like sarcasm, rather.
> > Anyway, if you have a decent installation of emacs
>
> Is there a popular distribution of Linux that doesn't have emacs
> either in the base or in its repositories?
Probably no such distro, if popular belongs to one of {Debian, Gentoo,
Slackware, SUSE, RedHat}, or one of their close derivatives.
In case of smaller distro - GRML is one. Nowadays "smaller" means
"fits into CD", or 1GB pendrive. They include ed, forgot about cal. No
emacs, but plenty of interpreters, two gcc's, rudimentary x11 and
browser, antivirus, some other tools. GRML is rescue-cd, I use it to
test if my laptops have what I paid for, and for, er, rescue.
OTOH, I am typing this on ParrotOS (Debian derivative, oriented
towards security, pentest and forensics tasks - I am parroting from
their homepage and I really have no idea what it is) and AFAIR the
default install did not have ed... it is in repos, just not included
in installation image, while umpty-megabytes of visual environment
was, and some "codium" - many megs of dead weight (by which I mean, it
must be useful for somebody else) - was included by default during
postinstall phase... I installed ed because I wanted to experiment a
bit. No problem. I deinstalled (vs)codium (some kind of visual studio
cousin) because I do not want to experiment with this. No problem... I
just noticed that times have changed - some years ago /bin/ed and
/usr/bin/cal were both small and expected to be there (60 kbytes for
ed package and about 1mb for gcal, a modern cal rewrite). Now folks
have no place for this. I remember I had to install few more small
packages to make my parrot usable. Well, good to have it in repos,
good to know what I need.
As of emacs in ParrotOS, they had it in repos, but not as decent as I
wanted. Binaries+compiled ELisp in one package and sources for ELisp
files in another, but I have not found (so far) a package containing
info files with manuals. So I downloaded sources, compiled with
minimal options and installed in some non-relevant dir, this brought
me info files there, and entered INFOPATH variable with some dir into
a script I use to start emacs (I use scripts to start various
complicated programs, I find it less complicated than click-and-pray).
As you can see, everything was in there but it still was fun to make
any use of it :-).
--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola
--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
I can see both sides of this. On the one hand I accept that once I'm used to sticking my key into the door of the car, it takes time and thought (when I get one of those new-fangled fobs) to turn it over and find the right button and push it instead. And why take time and thought when it saves no time and effort; pushing the button, turning the key, they're about the same. Nowadays I've gotten as far as doing them both about 50-50. I'm a fan of PC hotkeys; to take my fingers off the keyboard, put my hand on the mouse, find the cursor, move it to the right place, then move my hand back to the keyboard after pushing the button, all this takes (it seems to me) a ~lot~ more time than keeping my hands where they are and just hitting or or whatever. But if someone wants to keep on doing it the way he's used to, I expostulate only mildly. But (and now we get to the other hand) sometimes learning a whole new skill really is worth the effort. I've used the Dvorak layout instead of QWERTY for ten or fifteen years now; it took me a week or two even to get started, and it was a few months before I was fully reflexive (so to speak), but I'm not sorry. LaTeX took me a week, but it's SO much better than Word. ooRexx I'm still not really expert in, though I've been using TSO-REXX for decades. I guess the conclusion is that I'm often willing to make the effort, but I don't choose to give others a hard time if they're not. And besides, if others keep doing it the old way, that makes me special, right? :) Seriously, it increases my market value. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* He can say "horse" in nine languages, but he bought a cow to ride on. -Poor Richard */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of David Crayford Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 16:59 I find this interesting as one of my ex-colleagues was the same. He used SPF/PC and the Tachyon assembler. When SPF/PC became obsolete he tried to move to Slickedit which has an ISPF emulation mode. It was painful watching him code as line commands are really inefficient but his muscle memory was such that he just couldn’t change. Flip side of the coin is that one of my esteemed colleagues switched from ISPF to Slickedit and it was a success. He just bit the bullet and learned a new editor. I’ve done this several times to great effect. He even presented the experience to our team. Another example is the architect of the product I’m working on. Long term mainframe guy, ex-IBM DE and general great guy who never wants to stop learning. He taught himself how to use VS Code, markdown and Git so he could contribute to our open source documentation [1]. You are never too old to learn new things. And you should, because they are generally much better. [1] https://z-open-data.github.io/instana-topics/ > --- On 23 Aug 2023, at 10:45 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote: > It's a start, but I would love the opportunity to fork out $ for a full > clone. Not that I have any objections to using free software when it suits my > needs, but I won't ignore a useful program just because it's not open source. > Take Tritus SPF (TSPF), but not while I'm still breathing; it was money well > spent. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
> On 24 Aug 2023, at 5:04 am, Seymour J Metz wrote: > > It's not relevant where vi is running; what's relevant is what's on the other > end of the pipe. If it's a 3270, real or simulated, then it's block mode, > with all of its pluses and minuses. If it's, e.g., Telnet with a VT100 > profile, then vi can respond to keystrokes in (almost) real time. I already made the point that Vim is running over SSH so take 3270 and Telnet out of the discussion. 3270 was designed for networks in the dark ages. ISPF is still a brilliant platform but it’s no match for ncurses applications that can now leverage cool unicode fonts and other stuff. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of > David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 4:17 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone) > > On 24/8/2023 3:51 am, Seymour J Metz wrote: >> Sure, but where are the data coming from? If it's a block-mode terminal on >> one end of the SSH session, then you have the same issue. If it's a PC on >> one end of the signal then it can send individual characters. The Devil is >> in the details. >> > It's running in a Docker container on a headless server. The only > involvement of the PC is the terminal emulator which is not doing > anything special other then rendering. Vim works just as well running on > z/OS. > > >> -- >> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >> >> >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of >> David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 3:35 PM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone) >> >>> On 23 Aug 2023, at 10:45 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote: >>> >>>> Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros >>> On a PC it's easy to examine every keystroke as it comes in >> PC? That’s running in a Linux shell over SSH. Vim doesn’t need to run on a >> PC for full duplex. It’s a nurses application. >> >> >> -- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> -- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
While TSPF is a very good point-in-time clone of ISPF, it also supports things like cut-and-paste, so it's more like running ISPF from an InfoWindow terminal that, e.g., a 3180. I find line commandsd to be good servants but poor masters; use them for the intended purposes and they are very usefull. You have to carbe the bird at the joints. ObTheOneThatGotAway I find that whatever editor I am using, I miss features that some other editor has. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 4:59 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone) > On 23 Aug 2023, at 10:45 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote: > > It's a start, but I would love the opportunity to fork out $ for a full > clone. Not that I have any objections to using free software when it suits my > needs, but I won't ignore a useful program just because it's not open source. > Take Tritus SPF (TSPF), but not while I'm still breathing; it was money well > spent. I find this interesting as one of my ex-colleagues was the same. He used SPF/PC and the Tachyon assembler. When SPF/PC became obsolete he tried to move to Slickedit which has an ISPF emulation mode. It was painful watching him code as line commands are really inefficient but his muscle memory was such that he just couldn’t change. Flip side of the coin is that one of my esteemed colleagues switched from ISPF to Slickedit and it was a success. He just bit the bullet and learned a new editor. I’ve done this several times to great effect. He even presented the experience to our team. Another example is the architect of the product I’m working on. Long term mainframe guy, ex-IBM DE and general great guy who never wants to stop learning. He taught himself how to use VS Code, markdown and Git so he could contribute to our open source documentation [1]. You are never too old to learn new things. And you should, because they are generally much better. [1] https://z-open-data.github.io/instana-topics/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
It's not relevant where vi is running; what's relevant is what's on the other end of the pipe. If it's a 3270, real or simulated, then it's block mode, with all of its pluses and minuses. If it's, e.g., Telnet with a VT100 profile, then vi can respond to keystrokes in (almost) real time. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 4:17 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone) On 24/8/2023 3:51 am, Seymour J Metz wrote: > Sure, but where are the data coming from? If it's a block-mode terminal on > one end of the SSH session, then you have the same issue. If it's a PC on one > end of the signal then it can send individual characters. The Devil is in the > details. > It's running in a Docker container on a headless server. The only involvement of the PC is the terminal emulator which is not doing anything special other then rendering. Vim works just as well running on z/OS. > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of > David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 3:35 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone) > >> On 23 Aug 2023, at 10:45 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote: >> >>> Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros >> On a PC it's easy to examine every keystroke as it comes in > PC? That’s running in a Linux shell over SSH. Vim doesn’t need to run on a PC > for full duplex. It’s a nurses application. > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
> On 23 Aug 2023, at 10:45 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote: > > It's a start, but I would love the opportunity to fork out $ for a full > clone. Not that I have any objections to using free software when it suits my > needs, but I won't ignore a useful program just because it's not open source. > Take Tritus SPF (TSPF), but not while I'm still breathing; it was money well > spent. I find this interesting as one of my ex-colleagues was the same. He used SPF/PC and the Tachyon assembler. When SPF/PC became obsolete he tried to move to Slickedit which has an ISPF emulation mode. It was painful watching him code as line commands are really inefficient but his muscle memory was such that he just couldn’t change. Flip side of the coin is that one of my esteemed colleagues switched from ISPF to Slickedit and it was a success. He just bit the bullet and learned a new editor. I’ve done this several times to great effect. He even presented the experience to our team. Another example is the architect of the product I’m working on. Long term mainframe guy, ex-IBM DE and general great guy who never wants to stop learning. He taught himself how to use VS Code, markdown and Git so he could contribute to our open source documentation [1]. You are never too old to learn new things. And you should, because they are generally much better. [1] https://z-open-data.github.io/instana-topics/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
By definition it's not just a good indicator, it's a perfect indicator, that the editor lacks the feature(s) I wanted for my own idiosyncratic use. I don't usually fault the editor for that; I can almost always think up features that no one else would want. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* If you have a problem with me, text me. And if you don’t have my number, you don’t know me well enough to have a problem with me. -Christian Bale */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of David Crayford Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 00:18 hahaha! Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros https://github.com/ycm-core/YouCompleteMe. Talking of macros, if you need to write a lot of them it's usually a good indicator that your editor lacks features. --- On 23/8/2023 10:29 am, Steve Beaver wrote: > I have used ISPF for ever and i can out do and any using VI 10 to ispf > written for Linux/Unix -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
On 24/8/2023 3:51 am, Seymour J Metz wrote: Sure, but where are the data coming from? If it's a block-mode terminal on one end of the SSH session, then you have the same issue. If it's a PC on one end of the signal then it can send individual characters. The Devil is in the details. It's running in a Docker container on a headless server. The only involvement of the PC is the terminal emulator which is not doing anything special other then rendering. Vim works just as well running on z/OS. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 3:35 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone) On 23 Aug 2023, at 10:45 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote: Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros On a PC it's easy to examine every keystroke as it comes in PC? That’s running in a Linux shell over SSH. Vim doesn’t need to run on a PC for full duplex. It’s a nurses application. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
Sure, but where are the data coming from? If it's a block-mode terminal on one end of the SSH session, then you have the same issue. If it's a PC on one end of the signal then it can send individual characters. The Devil is in the details. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 3:35 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone) > On 23 Aug 2023, at 10:45 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote: > >> Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros > > On a PC it's easy to examine every keystroke as it comes in PC? That’s running in a Linux shell over SSH. Vim doesn’t need to run on a PC for full duplex. It’s a nurses application. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
> On 23 Aug 2023, at 10:45 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote: > >> Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros > > On a PC it's easy to examine every keystroke as it comes in PC? That’s running in a Linux shell over SSH. Vim doesn’t need to run on a PC for full duplex. It’s a nurses application. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
> lspf It's a start, but I would love the opportunity to fork out $ for a full clone. Not that I have any objections to using free software when it suits my needs, but I won't ignore a useful program just because it's not open source. Take Tritus SPF (TSPF), but not while I'm still breathing; it was money well spent. > Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros On a PC it's easy to examine every keystroke as it comes in, which makes allows for smoother completion. On a block mode terminal, you could always assign a PFK to an edit macro, but that leads to a clunkier user interface. I'd say it's still worth doing. As a TSO bigot, my favorite editing environment on the mainframe is XEDIT *, mainly because of SET PENDING. If THE ever fully supports XEDIT macros using SET PENDING, I'll probably start using it. * I'm willing to scarf up good tools where I find them. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 12:17 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone) On 23/8/2023 10:29 am, Steve Beaver wrote: > I have tried VI and I find it to slow. I would use eMacs. Prefer to ispf > ported to Linux/Unix. https://github.com/daniel64/lspf > I have used ISPF for ever and i can out do and any using VI 10 to ispf > written for Linux/Unix hahaha! Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros https://github.com/ycm-core/YouCompleteMe. Talking of macros, if you need to write a lot of them it's usually a good indicator that your editor lacks features. > > Sent from my iPhone > > No one said I could type with one thumb > >> On Aug 22, 2023, at 20:32, Tomasz Rola wrote: >> >> On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 08:44:30AM +0100, Rupert Reynolds wrote: >>> I remember using ed. Via a 2400bps modem :-) >> Aha. Ed and vi are still being praised by various people for their >> ability to use such a narrow bandwith. >> >>> I'm told the thing with emacs is that, if you like it, it can end up being >>> almost your whole development environment, so you feel lost without it. >> Sure, I agree. But this same thing can be told about any kind of tool >> which does its jobs so well that one does not want to search for >> anything better. Not perfect, just good enough. Part of this is >> avoiding "avalanche" type of changes to the way a tool works. Changes >> are introduced, allright, but usually they are acceptable to me. In >> some cases, I had to include an ELisp snippet into my dot-emacs. >> >> I suspect that I would be able to transplant old version of some code >> I rely upon into newer emacs, but this might prove to be troublesome. >> >> BTW, emacs is not very good with big files. I have now one such ~30 >> megabyte text file, with Unicode and some stuff describing a structure >> of it - it contains my notes, calendar things, but in essence it is >> just a magnafied bookmarks file. It loads quite fast, but not >> blazingly fast - about five seconds. >> >> Emacs has a hex viewer too. I use it rarely, because I prefer >> "hexdump -C > >> BTW2, emacs is the only editor I know about that has built in >> psychiatric help. And no, this is not one of those Lady Gaga >> jokes. Try "M-x doctor". >> >>> I ended up writing my own editor twice (once for TSO and 3278, again for >>> Windoze). Both can run without line numbers and use F-keys to get things >>> done, mostly matching the keys I used with the ISPF editor to insert, >>> delete, split and join lines etc. >> U-hum. I never felt such inclination (except once when I was very very >> young). Learning the tool and using it well enough, seems like >> attanaible goal for me :-). >> >> -- >> Regards, >> Tomasz Rola >> >> -- >> ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** >> ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home** >> ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** >> ** ** >> ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com ** >> >> -- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
> Maybe people say so because they expected something else. "Humor is such a subjective thing!" (B5). My guess is that the quip came from an emacs user who was perfectly content with it. > Anyway, if you have a decent installation of emacs Is there a popular distribution of Linux that doesn't have emacs either in the base or in its repositories? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tomasz Rola [rto...@ceti.com.pl] Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2023 11:47 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone) On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 12:51:00PM +, Seymour J Metz wrote: > > I was just using emacs as ordinary text editor > > For me, an ordinary text editor is one that includes a good macro > facility, and I write new macros at the drop of a hat. If and when I > learn emacs, learning LISP will be part and parcel of that. > > "Emacs is a great operating system that desperately needs a text editor" Maybe people say so because they expected something else. Anyway, if you have a decent installation of emacs (i.e. wholesome, whereas some systems divide whole into some parts, like binaries plus ELisp files compiled for speed, ELisp source code, manuals)... but if you have it all, then just do "C-h i" and you will be presented, among other things, with: * Emacs: (emacs). The extensible self-documenting text editor. * Emacs FAQ: (efaq).Frequently Asked Questions about Emacs. * Elisp: (elisp). The Emacs Lisp Reference Manual. * Emacs Lisp Intro: (eintr).A simple introduction to Emacs Lisp programming. This will be info, a builtin hypertext documentation system. Other source of hints and information are: https://wikemacs.org/wiki/Main_Page https://www.emacswiki.org/ And to up the spirit: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CategoryHumor https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsNilism And org-mode really useful part of it: https://wikemacs.org/wiki/Org-mode https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/OrgMode and some obligatory short movie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnMntOQjs7Q -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com ** -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
Whoops! Forgot the link https://github.com/emacs-lsp/lsp-mode > On 23 Aug 2023, at 12:19 pm, David Crayford wrote: > > I noticed that there is LSP support for Emacs. That's super important in the > modern world of language servers. > > On 23/8/2023 9:32 am, Tomasz Rola wrote: >> On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 08:44:30AM +0100, Rupert Reynolds wrote: >>> I remember using ed. Via a 2400bps modem :-) >> Aha. Ed and vi are still being praised by various people for their >> ability to use such a narrow bandwith. >> >>> I'm told the thing with emacs is that, if you like it, it can end up being >>> almost your whole development environment, so you feel lost without it. >> Sure, I agree. But this same thing can be told about any kind of tool >> which does its jobs so well that one does not want to search for >> anything better. Not perfect, just good enough. Part of this is >> avoiding "avalanche" type of changes to the way a tool works. Changes >> are introduced, allright, but usually they are acceptable to me. In >> some cases, I had to include an ELisp snippet into my dot-emacs. >> >> I suspect that I would be able to transplant old version of some code >> I rely upon into newer emacs, but this might prove to be troublesome. >> >> BTW, emacs is not very good with big files. I have now one such ~30 >> megabyte text file, with Unicode and some stuff describing a structure >> of it - it contains my notes, calendar things, but in essence it is >> just a magnafied bookmarks file. It loads quite fast, but not >> blazingly fast - about five seconds. >> >> Emacs has a hex viewer too. I use it rarely, because I prefer >> "hexdump -C > >> BTW2, emacs is the only editor I know about that has built in >> psychiatric help. And no, this is not one of those Lady Gaga >> jokes. Try "M-x doctor". >> >>> I ended up writing my own editor twice (once for TSO and 3278, again for >>> Windoze). Both can run without line numbers and use F-keys to get things >>> done, mostly matching the keys I used with the ISPF editor to insert, >>> delete, split and join lines etc. >> U-hum. I never felt such inclination (except once when I was very very >> young). Learning the tool and using it well enough, seems like >> attanaible goal for me :-). >> -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
I noticed that there is LSP support for Emacs. That's super important in the modern world of language servers. On 23/8/2023 9:32 am, Tomasz Rola wrote: On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 08:44:30AM +0100, Rupert Reynolds wrote: I remember using ed. Via a 2400bps modem :-) Aha. Ed and vi are still being praised by various people for their ability to use such a narrow bandwith. I'm told the thing with emacs is that, if you like it, it can end up being almost your whole development environment, so you feel lost without it. Sure, I agree. But this same thing can be told about any kind of tool which does its jobs so well that one does not want to search for anything better. Not perfect, just good enough. Part of this is avoiding "avalanche" type of changes to the way a tool works. Changes are introduced, allright, but usually they are acceptable to me. In some cases, I had to include an ELisp snippet into my dot-emacs. I suspect that I would be able to transplant old version of some code I rely upon into newer emacs, but this might prove to be troublesome. BTW, emacs is not very good with big files. I have now one such ~30 megabyte text file, with Unicode and some stuff describing a structure of it - it contains my notes, calendar things, but in essence it is just a magnafied bookmarks file. It loads quite fast, but not blazingly fast - about five seconds. Emacs has a hex viewer too. I use it rarely, because I prefer "hexdump -C I ended up writing my own editor twice (once for TSO and 3278, again for Windoze). Both can run without line numbers and use F-keys to get things done, mostly matching the keys I used with the ISPF editor to insert, delete, split and join lines etc. U-hum. I never felt such inclination (except once when I was very very young). Learning the tool and using it well enough, seems like attanaible goal for me :-). -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
On 23/8/2023 10:29 am, Steve Beaver wrote: I have tried VI and I find it to slow. I would use eMacs. Prefer to ispf ported to Linux/Unix. https://github.com/daniel64/lspf I have used ISPF for ever and i can out do and any using VI 10 to ispf written for Linux/Unix hahaha! Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros https://github.com/ycm-core/YouCompleteMe. Talking of macros, if you need to write a lot of them it's usually a good indicator that your editor lacks features. Sent from my iPhone No one said I could type with one thumb On Aug 22, 2023, at 20:32, Tomasz Rola wrote: On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 08:44:30AM +0100, Rupert Reynolds wrote: I remember using ed. Via a 2400bps modem :-) Aha. Ed and vi are still being praised by various people for their ability to use such a narrow bandwith. I'm told the thing with emacs is that, if you like it, it can end up being almost your whole development environment, so you feel lost without it. Sure, I agree. But this same thing can be told about any kind of tool which does its jobs so well that one does not want to search for anything better. Not perfect, just good enough. Part of this is avoiding "avalanche" type of changes to the way a tool works. Changes are introduced, allright, but usually they are acceptable to me. In some cases, I had to include an ELisp snippet into my dot-emacs. I suspect that I would be able to transplant old version of some code I rely upon into newer emacs, but this might prove to be troublesome. BTW, emacs is not very good with big files. I have now one such ~30 megabyte text file, with Unicode and some stuff describing a structure of it - it contains my notes, calendar things, but in essence it is just a magnafied bookmarks file. It loads quite fast, but not blazingly fast - about five seconds. Emacs has a hex viewer too. I use it rarely, because I prefer "hexdump -C I ended up writing my own editor twice (once for TSO and 3278, again for Windoze). Both can run without line numbers and use F-keys to get things done, mostly matching the keys I used with the ISPF editor to insert, delete, split and join lines etc. U-hum. I never felt such inclination (except once when I was very very young). Learning the tool and using it well enough, seems like attanaible goal for me :-). -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com ** -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
I have tried VI and I find it to slow. I would use eMacs. Prefer to ispf ported to Linux/Unix. I have used ISPF for ever and i can out do and any using VI 10 to ispf written for Linux/Unix Sent from my iPhone No one said I could type with one thumb > On Aug 22, 2023, at 20:32, Tomasz Rola wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 08:44:30AM +0100, Rupert Reynolds wrote: >> I remember using ed. Via a 2400bps modem :-) > > Aha. Ed and vi are still being praised by various people for their > ability to use such a narrow bandwith. > >> I'm told the thing with emacs is that, if you like it, it can end up being >> almost your whole development environment, so you feel lost without it. > > Sure, I agree. But this same thing can be told about any kind of tool > which does its jobs so well that one does not want to search for > anything better. Not perfect, just good enough. Part of this is > avoiding "avalanche" type of changes to the way a tool works. Changes > are introduced, allright, but usually they are acceptable to me. In > some cases, I had to include an ELisp snippet into my dot-emacs. > > I suspect that I would be able to transplant old version of some code > I rely upon into newer emacs, but this might prove to be troublesome. > > BTW, emacs is not very good with big files. I have now one such ~30 > megabyte text file, with Unicode and some stuff describing a structure > of it - it contains my notes, calendar things, but in essence it is > just a magnafied bookmarks file. It loads quite fast, but not > blazingly fast - about five seconds. > > Emacs has a hex viewer too. I use it rarely, because I prefer > "hexdump -C > BTW2, emacs is the only editor I know about that has built in > psychiatric help. And no, this is not one of those Lady Gaga > jokes. Try "M-x doctor". > >> I ended up writing my own editor twice (once for TSO and 3278, again for >> Windoze). Both can run without line numbers and use F-keys to get things >> done, mostly matching the keys I used with the ISPF editor to insert, >> delete, split and join lines etc. > > U-hum. I never felt such inclination (except once when I was very very > young). Learning the tool and using it well enough, seems like > attanaible goal for me :-). > > -- > Regards, > Tomasz Rola > > -- > ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** > ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home** > ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** > ** ** > ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com ** > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
