Re: z10BC Memory Upgrade All-But Impossible
greatjust greatpolitics and $$$(as they see it) as well as no sense wins again .. From: ibmmain nitz-...@gmx.net To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Date: 11/12/2012 12:08 AM Subject:Re: z10BC Memory Upgrade All-But Impossible Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU And if you listen to Martin, everyone out there on zSeries (of any sort) is apparently wallowing in memory anyway. They are. The memory just isn't for z/OS, it is for zLinux. After all, everybody knows that z/OS makes do without adequate resources, when Linux applications fail. You wouldn't believe the fight I went through to get our z/OS lpars enough real to get paging below the 25% threshold when we migrated from 1.10 to 1.12. Not to mention to stop the RSM abends we experienced that IBM was unable to debug and that were most probably due to not enough real and a serialization problem somewhere. That was about 30GB of real for 10 lpars. 30GB were thrown easily at one Linux runnig under VM, on the other hand. Customers rebelled against the constant need to update the OS we've had to dance to over the last few years, and IBM changed its tune. As someone else said, I don't think customers rebelled. I think that IBMs own resources are spread so thin that the previous cycle couldn't be maintained anymore. Did you notice lately that BCP questions are answered from China on this forum? It looks to me like some of the development labs went there. While I can appreciate that IBM is innovating the platform, economics like this is really putting the squeeze on many IBM customers. This is a very disturbing trend in zSystem economics, which IBM should reverse but likely won't. If you're not one of the big customers, you have lost. In a few years there will be 50 large mainframe installations around the world and all small ones will have been absorbed into those 50. Recent development in z/OS only helps large customers who can afford 'large' hardware. Also, I attended Bob Rogers' 'crystal ball' session at the last zConference in Berlin in May. I think he was talking about the architecture of what is now called z12EC. What I got out of that is that the instruction set for z/OS (our zArchitecture) is basically tacked on to a completely different type (forgot which). And given how much z/OS is made to look and feel like what the clickers are used to (which is the only area IBM spends development dollars on), I firmly believe that z/OS is doomed. I just hope that I'll be able to work on z/OS until I retire. Which is entirely too far into the future. How's that for gloom on a Monday morning? Barbara -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Email Disclaimer This E-mail contains confidential information belonging to the sender, which may be legally privileged information. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity addressed above. If you are not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of the E-mail or attached files is strictly prohibited. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z10BC Memory Upgrade All-But Impossible
W dniu 2012-11-11 00:45, Edward Jaffe pisze: On 11/10/2012 2:25 PM, John Gilmore wrote: It is possible, even usual in many shops, to continue to use machines well after they have been withdrawn from marketing. The inability to obtain more storage or to activate a spare, already acquired CP is another, much more serious matter. That sort of thing apparently came later. How much later? Hardware memory upgrade MES for z10BC was discontinued after June 2012--coincident with marketing withdrawal. If you have pre-planned memory installed but not activated, you can still get the microcode memory activation MES until June 2013. But, the price has been jacked up so high ($8K/GB) that it might as well not be available at all! Well, $8k/GB is special price for you, which includes all possible discounts. I mean in Poland. And I'm not talking about discontinued machines - hat was the prices when z9 or z10 was the newest machine. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- Tre tej wiadomoci moe zawiera informacje prawnie chronione Banku przeznaczone wycznie do uytku subowego adresata. Odbiorc moe by jedynie jej adresat z wyczeniem dostpu osób trzecich. Jeeli nie jeste adresatem niniejszej wiadomoci lub pracownikiem upowanionym do jej przekazania adresatowi, informujemy, e jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie, rozprowadzanie lub inne dziaanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie zabronione i moe by karalne. Jeeli otrzymae t wiadomo omykowo, prosimy niezwocznie zawiadomi nadawc wysyajc odpowied oraz trwale usun t wiadomo wczajc w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub zapisane na dysku. This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorised to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive. BRE Bank SA, 00-950 Warszawa, ul. Senatorska 18, tel. +48 (22) 829 00 00, fax +48 (22) 829 00 33, www.brebank.pl, e-mail: i...@brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2012 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci wpacony) wynosi 168.410.984 zotych. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z10BC Memory Upgrade All-But Impossible
Edward Jaffe wrote: begin extract Understand, this is not the price for the memory. This is just the price to _enable_ the memory. end extract It is indeed the price of some trivial, off-the-shelf µcode changes; and these changes are not very size-sensitive. A [small] flat charge would have been more appropriate. I said here on another occasion that some microprocessor assembly languages had clearly been designed to discourage their use; but here we have something subtler: this scheme will produce some high-margin revenue too. John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z10BC Memory Upgrade All-But Impossible
On Friday 09 November 2012 19:59:33 Edward Jaffe wrote: Those of you with z10BC machines waiting for the z12BC to come out had better learn to make do with what you have. Keep in mind that z10BC is just _one_ generation removed from the current z114 business class machine. Nevertheless, hardware MES were withdrawn earlier this year and microcode MES are announced withdrawn as of June 2013. A memory upgrade is both hardware (the physical DIMMs) and microcode (enabling the memory). The only way to get additional memory for a z10 these days is to buy it on the used market. And, IBM is charging a premium price for the magic screwdriver to enable this memory: $8K/GB! Thus, a 16GB memory upgrade would cost $128K in services PLUS the cost of the memory itself! (FYI. You can buy a brand new z114 machine for that...) This reminds me of the System/3 that I worked on in my college days; the school purchased an upgrade to larger DASD (for I don't know how much), and the field engineer's implementation was to open the DASD drawer and clip off the wire loop that prevented the access arm from extending all the way into the drive's inner tracks... Leslie -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z10BC Memory Upgrade All-But Impossible
And if you listen to Martin, everyone out there on zSeries (of any sort) is apparently wallowing in memory anyway. They are. The memory just isn't for z/OS, it is for zLinux. After all, everybody knows that z/OS makes do without adequate resources, when Linux applications fail. You wouldn't believe the fight I went through to get our z/OS lpars enough real to get paging below the 25% threshold when we migrated from 1.10 to 1.12. Not to mention to stop the RSM abends we experienced that IBM was unable to debug and that were most probably due to not enough real and a serialization problem somewhere. That was about 30GB of real for 10 lpars. 30GB were thrown easily at one Linux runnig under VM, on the other hand. Customers rebelled against the constant need to update the OS we've had to dance to over the last few years, and IBM changed its tune. As someone else said, I don't think customers rebelled. I think that IBMs own resources are spread so thin that the previous cycle couldn't be maintained anymore. Did you notice lately that BCP questions are answered from China on this forum? It looks to me like some of the development labs went there. While I can appreciate that IBM is innovating the platform, economics like this is really putting the squeeze on many IBM customers. This is a very disturbing trend in zSystem economics, which IBM should reverse but likely won't. If you're not one of the big customers, you have lost. In a few years there will be 50 large mainframe installations around the world and all small ones will have been absorbed into those 50. Recent development in z/OS only helps large customers who can afford 'large' hardware. Also, I attended Bob Rogers' 'crystal ball' session at the last zConference in Berlin in May. I think he was talking about the architecture of what is now called z12EC. What I got out of that is that the instruction set for z/OS (our zArchitecture) is basically tacked on to a completely different type (forgot which). And given how much z/OS is made to look and feel like what the clickers are used to (which is the only area IBM spends development dollars on), I firmly believe that z/OS is doomed. I just hope that I'll be able to work on z/OS until I retire. Which is entirely too far into the future. How's that for gloom on a Monday morning? Barbara -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z10BC Memory Upgrade All-But Impossible
From what I can see, IBM announced the z10EC in February 2008, and the z10BC in October 2008. Consider that most clients did not get them for 6-12 months after the announcements, and the June 2012 end of life statement gives just a little over 3 years useful life. You can't even depreciate a mainframe over 5 years now, let alone 7. While I can appreciate that IBM is innovating the platform, economics like this is really putting the squeeze on many IBM customers. How about government, where procurement can delay new systems for years? This is a very disturbing trend in zSystem economics, which IBM should reverse but likely won't. Regards, Tom Conley -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z10BC Memory Upgrade All-But Impossible
On 11/10/2012 12:10 PM, Thomas Conley wrote: From what I can see, IBM announced the z10EC in February 2008, and the z10BC in October 2008. Consider that most clients did not get them for 6-12 months after the announcements, and the June 2012 end of life statement gives just a little over 3 years useful life. You can't even depreciate a mainframe over 5 years now, let alone 7. While I can appreciate that IBM is innovating the platform, economics like this is really putting the squeeze on many IBM customers. How about government, where procurement can delay new systems for years? This is a very disturbing trend in zSystem economics, which IBM should reverse but likely won't. I guess I was researching this at the exact same time you were... z10BC became first available in 4Q08 and was withdrawn from marketing after 2Q12; the life cycle of these machines was 3 1/2 years. By comparison, z9BC first became available in 2Q06 and was withdrawn from marketing after 2Q10. So, its life cycle was FOUR years! -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 831 Parkview Drive North El Segundo, CA 90245 http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z10BC Memory Upgrade All-But Impossible
On 11/10/2012 2:25 PM, John Gilmore wrote: It is possible, even usual in many shops, to continue to use machines well after they have been withdrawn from marketing. The inability to obtain more storage or to activate a spare, already acquired CP is another, much more serious matter. That sort of thing apparently came later. How much later? Hardware memory upgrade MES for z10BC was discontinued after June 2012--coincident with marketing withdrawal. If you have pre-planned memory installed but not activated, you can still get the microcode memory activation MES until June 2013. But, the price has been jacked up so high ($8K/GB) that it might as well not be available at all! -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 831 Parkview Drive North El Segundo, CA 90245 http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z10BC Memory Upgrade All-But Impossible
Thank you. It's difficult to avoid the conclusion that the objective of these moves was the very short-term replacement of the z10BC by another, newer and less 'specialized' model. John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z10BC Memory Upgrade All-But Impossible
On Nov 10, 2012, at 5:45 PM, Edward Jaffe wrote: Hardware memory upgrade MES for z10BC was discontinued after June 2012--coincident with marketing withdrawal. If you have pre-planned memory installed but not activated, you can still get the microcode memory activation MES until June 2013. But, the price has been jacked up so high ($8K/GB) that it might as well not be available at all! SIGH... remember when a megabyte of storage cost 50K ? ED -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z10BC Memory Upgrade All-But Impossible
On 11/10/2012 4:11 PM, John Gilmore wrote: Thank you. It's difficult to avoid the conclusion that the objective of these moves was the very short-term replacement of the z10BC by another, newer and less 'specialized' model. Or perhaps a way to increase hardware revenues? -- Edward E Jaffe Chief Technology Officer Phoenix Software International, Inc 831 Parkview Drive North El Segundo, CA 90245 http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
z10BC Memory Upgrade All-But Impossible
Those of you with z10BC machines waiting for the z12BC to come out had better learn to make do with what you have. Keep in mind that z10BC is just _one_ generation removed from the current z114 business class machine. Nevertheless, hardware MES were withdrawn earlier this year and microcode MES are announced withdrawn as of June 2013. A memory upgrade is both hardware (the physical DIMMs) and microcode (enabling the memory). The only way to get additional memory for a z10 these days is to buy it on the used market. And, IBM is charging a premium price for the magic screwdriver to enable this memory: $8K/GB! Thus, a 16GB memory upgrade would cost $128K in services PLUS the cost of the memory itself! (FYI. You can buy a brand new z114 machine for that...) -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 831 Parkview Drive North El Segundo, CA 90245 310-338-0400 x318 edja...@phoenixsoftware.com http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z10BC Memory Upgrade All-But Impossible
On Fri, 9 Nov 2012 16:59:33 -0800, Edward Jaffe wrote: A memory upgrade is both hardware (the physical DIMMs) and microcode (enabling the memory). The only way to get additional memory for a z10 these days is to buy it on the used market. And, IBM is charging a premium price for the magic screwdriver to enable this memory: $8K/GB! Thus, a 16GB memory upgrade would cost $128K in services PLUS the cost of the memory itself! (FYI. You can buy a brand new z114 machine for that...) ... which is precisely the point I guess. And if you listen to Martin, everyone out there on zSeries (of any sort) is apparently wallowing in memory anyway. I suspect a lot of small(er) customers do as I see happening here - shunt the z10 out to DR, buy in a z114 for the main site. When the next BC arrives, wash, rinse, repeat ... Customers rebelled against the constant need to update the OS we've had to dance to over the last few years, and IBM changed its tune. Maybe the same will come to pass on the hardware side as well. Shane ... -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z10BC Memory Upgrade All-But Impossible
On 11/9/2012 5:46 PM, Shane Ginnane wrote: Customers rebelled against the constant need to update the OS we've had to dance to over the last few years, and IBM changed its tune. To the best of my knowledge, there was no customer rebellion. Rather, customers were taken completely by surprise by IBM's sudden z/OS release schedule change. There never was a constant need to upgrade the OS; upgrading every year was optional. Now that choice has been stripped away in an effort to reduce costs. Maybe the same will come to pass on the hardware side as well. I don't follow processor hardware life cycle details quite as closely as z/OS, but it seems to me that memory upgrades were withdrawn much earlier for z10 than for previous models. That is perception only; I have not verified as fact. -- Edward E Jaffe Phoenix Software International, Inc 831 Parkview Drive North El Segundo, CA 90245 http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
