Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Kris Craig]

On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 10:16 PM Pierre Joye  wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2022, 10:31 AM Kris Craig  wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 4:51 AM Marco Pivetta  wrote:
>>
>>
>> But that doesn't mean we should be using the PHP website to start taking
>> sides in military conflicts.
>>
>
> There is no side to take but the population in Ukraine, friends, family,
> colleagues as well as in Russians, the victims of a dictatorship' lies.
>
> I don't see any issue to show our support for them, quite the opposite, I
> do see an issue not to show it. A link to red cross and other ong
> supporting refugees and civilians is not political, it is being a human.
>
> It does not mean we take a political side. As much as there is not much to
> discuss about that, but the deconstruction,  point by point, of every
> single claim to justify this invasion, but php.net is not the place for
> that.
>
> best,
>

I think we need to draw a really important distinction here then.  On the
one hand, you describe showing support for the Ukrainian people, civilians,
refugees, and relief organizations.  I agree with you on this, as I imagine
most would.  Helping the innocent shouldn't be political.  But on the other
hand, you have other people here advocating that we condemn the invasion,
itself, as well as Russia and Vladimir Putin.  While I agree they're fully
deserving of condemnation, this part is inherently political, and I
question the appropriateness of including such a blatantly political
message on our website.  I don't oppose the message, itself, but I do fear
the precedent it would set, especially in the absence of previous
condemnations by us of illegal invasions in the past.

If all we're talking about is a message of solidarity with the victims of
war, I'm all for it.  I'd also be for a general condemnation of all illegal
wars/invasions, including this one.  At least then we're being consistent
IMO.

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Pierre Joye]

On Sat, Mar 5, 2022, 10:31 AM Kris Craig  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 4:51 AM Marco Pivetta  wrote:
>
>
> But that doesn't mean we should be using the PHP website to start taking
> sides in military conflicts.
>

There is no side to take but the population in Ukraine, friends, family,
colleagues as well as in Russians, the victims of a dictatorship' lies.

I don't see any issue to show our support for them, quite the opposite, I
do see an issue not to show it. A link to red cross and other ong
supporting refugees and civilians is not political, it is being a human.

It does not mean we take a political side. As much as there is not much to
discuss about that, but the deconstruction,  point by point, of every
single claim to justify this invasion, but php.net is not the place for
that.

best,

>

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Kris Craig]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 4:51 AM Marco Pivetta  wrote:

> Hey Christian,
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:41 PM  wrote:
>
> > this is exactly the problem. Russia did not just invaded Ukrainia out of
> > nowhere. The story started in 2014 with the illegal coup d'etat against
> > Viktor Yanukovych and its acceptance by the western countries. Or even
> > earlier, with the eastern extension of the EU and the Nato, to get
> Ukriane
> > on their side, stoping the political neutrality of Ukraine between Russia
> > and the western.
> >
> > As you see, it is not as simple. Should we start a discussion now? I do
> > not think so. It would not help anybody. Wars or conflicts are never
> > simple. Usually there's a long story.
> > Taking ones side in political conflicts will separate the community for
> > sure.
> >
> > Please do not start that.
> >
> > You and anybody else can show their political position on twitter,
> > facebook or elsewhere. We do not need to do that on php.net.
> >
>
> Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, as they're
> busy enough with butchering civilians over there.
>
> Greets,
>
> Marco Pivetta
>
> http://twitter.com/Ocramius
>
> http://ocramius.github.io/


I find this deeply, deeply disturbing.  In response to someone making the
argument that using the PHP website to take sides in military conflicts
between nations would risk dividing our community, you told him to "get the
fuck out" and accused him of promoting "Putin's propaganda".  From where
I'm sitting, this looks like a blatant effort on your part to silence any
dissent on this by immediately demonizing critics of this idea as Russian
operatives.  Are you going to accuse me of being a Russian spy now, as well?

To be clear, I don't support Putin's invasion of Ukraine.  In fact, I was
denouncing Putin on social media as a brutal dictator before it was cool,
back when the western news media was still singing his praises.  He's a war
criminal piece of garbage and the world will be much better off when he's
finally gone.

But that doesn't mean we should be using the PHP website to start taking
sides in military conflicts.  I just don't like the precedent we'd be
setting, especially since, as others have already pointed out here, we
never took any such stand against the U.S. invasions of Afghanistan, Iraq,
or Libya.  So if we were to start doing that now, it would look pretty damn
hypocritical of us.  Plus I don't want us to start having to deal with
batshit conspiracy theories about how PHP is secretly controlled by the
U.S. government.  Besides, it should be noted that PHP is not a political
organization.

If anybody's open to a compromise proposal, how about a general statement
of support for the peoples of Ukraine and any other nation currently
besieged by foreign invaders.  That I think would be far less divisive, as
evidenced by some of the messages we're seeing in this thread.  Accusing
every random dissenter of being an agent of Vladimir Putin just reeks of
logical fallacies, not to mention paranoia.  Reverting back to a
McCarthyist mindset will not help the people of Ukraine.

So can we please try to tone this down a bit?  I read through this entire
thread (painful though it was in places) and was not able to find anything
that any reasonable observer would regard as "Putin propaganda".  Nobody
here is a Russian secret agent trying to mindfuck us.  What I see is a
group of people who believe PHP needs to take a stand on this issue and
another group of people who believe PHP has no business getting involved.
Both are valid arguments worthy of debate, which means there's absolutely
NO NEED to question people's motives or demonize them as being agents of
Putin or the U.S. or whatever else.  Just debate the merits of the issue,
take a vote, and we're good.

Alternatively, I also like Viktor's idea of making a broader statement
against war in general.

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Chase Peeler]

On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 8:53 PM Michael Morris  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 3:31 AM Victor Bolshov 
> wrote:
>
> > Hello internals.
> >
> > In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
> > of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
> > to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
> > aggression.
> >
> > I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
> > the header of php.net website.
> >
> > Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
> > lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
> > still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
> > that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
> > the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.
> >
> > This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
> > an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
> >  and their clear statement.
> >
> > Say NO to war!
> >
>
> This original post has been met with some controversy. I don't know how
> much my voice counts, but I will say this.
>
> The occasions in history where one side is utterly and completely in the
> wrong are rare, but they do occur. Russia had no right to invade - period.
> Attempts on this list have been made to justify Russia's actions, but they
> are logically tortured as the Nazi justifications for invading Poland or
> Soviet Russia.


Maybe I missed them, but I don’t recall anyone justifying Russias actions.
Can you cite them please?


>
> Speaking of the Nazis, even Hitler didn't stoop so low as to send in troops
> utterly unprepared for what they were about to face while lying to them
> that they'd be lauded as heroes. Neither did Stalin.  Putin has done that.
>
> Now, you can try to justify certain things. You can try to justify Putin's
> War, but you will never convince anyone of your position - you can only
> succeed in proving yourself to be evil. Evil is the complete absence of
> compassion for the suffering of others, and only someone who is evil can
> advocate for Putin's War or try to justify it in any measure.
>
> Evil is a powerful word - one I do not use lightly. When one side calls
> another evil they say that there can be no more dialog, no more compromise,
> no more cooperation. The only correct response to evil is opposition.
>
-- 
Chase Peeler
chasepee...@gmail.com

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Michael Morris]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 3:31 AM Victor Bolshov  wrote:

> Hello internals.
>
> In these dark days for humanity, we as people of civilization, people
> of sanity, kind and caring people with children and families - we have
> to speak up, loud and clear, in support for Ukraine. To stop Russian
> aggression.
>
> I suggest to add Ukranian flag and a supportive anti-war disclaimer to
> the header of php.net website.
>
> Why is this important? There are a lot of PHP developers in Russia. A
> lot of them, sadly, have been brainwashed by Putin's propaganda. They
> still must have a lot of respect to PHP authors and creators. Seeing
> that these people, who have their respect, are against the war and for
> the freedom of Ukraine, might have an impact.
>
> This is not the time to "stay away from politics", we are experiencing
> an attack on humanity itself. Take example from
>  and their clear statement.
>
> Say NO to war!
>

This original post has been met with some controversy. I don't know how
much my voice counts, but I will say this.

The occasions in history where one side is utterly and completely in the
wrong are rare, but they do occur. Russia had no right to invade - period.
Attempts on this list have been made to justify Russia's actions, but they
are logically tortured as the Nazi justifications for invading Poland or
Soviet Russia.

Speaking of the Nazis, even Hitler didn't stoop so low as to send in troops
utterly unprepared for what they were about to face while lying to them
that they'd be lauded as heroes. Neither did Stalin.  Putin has done that.

Now, you can try to justify certain things. You can try to justify Putin's
War, but you will never convince anyone of your position - you can only
succeed in proving yourself to be evil. Evil is the complete absence of
compassion for the suffering of others, and only someone who is evil can
advocate for Putin's War or try to justify it in any measure.

Evil is a powerful word - one I do not use lightly. When one side calls
another evil they say that there can be no more dialog, no more compromise,
no more cooperation. The only correct response to evil is opposition.

[PHP-DEV] Re: [RFC] Deprecate and Remove utf8_encode and utf8_decode

[Rowan Tommins]

On 20/02/2022 18:55, Rowan Tommins wrote:

Good $daypart everybody,

I would like to open discussion on an RFC to deprecate and later 
remove the functions utf8_encode() and utf8_decode()


https://wiki.php.net/rfc/remove_utf8_decode_and_utf8_encode



Hi all,

I have made some minor updates to this RFC, to explicitly recommend 
mb_convert_encoding as the alternative. See the "Alternatives to Removed 
Functionality" for the reasoning.


If there is no further feedback, I will open voting some time next week, 
so if you have any concerns or queries please let me know.


Regards,

--
Rowan Tommins
[IMSoP]

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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Hamza Ahmad]

A yes from my side.

On 3/4/22, Joe Watkins  wrote:
> Morning internals,
>
> Today, some friends of the project, people we consider leaders even, are
> waking up in a war zone.
>
> They are living an unimaginable horror, and as I sit here and type, I fight
> back tears for them ... I am afraid for them, their families, their lives.
>
> The feeling of helplessness is overwhelming.
>
> However, here is where we develop PHP: This space is free of everything
> that is nothing to do with the development of PHP.
>
> Obviously, we are not bad people for not wanting to make this space about
> non-php things.
>
> I would kindly ask that this conversation, which is not about PHP
> development, is moved to more appropriate channels:
>
> Please remember that when you email the list you are communicating not only
> with the person you are replying to, but with everyone that ever subscribed
> to the list.
>
> When you conduct protracted conversations that are nothing to do with PHP,
> it is tantamount to spamming those people.
>
> Cheers
> Joe
>
> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 at 09:25, Lynn  wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 9:17 AM Kalle Sommer Nielsen 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Den fre. 4. mar. 2022 kl. 01.18 skrev Lynn :
>> > > Not making a statement is also making a statement.
>> >
>> > I disagree, assuming a stance without understanding the context is
>> insanity
>> >
>> >
>> What context are we not understanding?
>>
>

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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Joe Watkins]

Morning internals,

Today, some friends of the project, people we consider leaders even, are
waking up in a war zone.

They are living an unimaginable horror, and as I sit here and type, I fight
back tears for them ... I am afraid for them, their families, their lives.

The feeling of helplessness is overwhelming.

However, here is where we develop PHP: This space is free of everything
that is nothing to do with the development of PHP.

Obviously, we are not bad people for not wanting to make this space about
non-php things.

I would kindly ask that this conversation, which is not about PHP
development, is moved to more appropriate channels:

Please remember that when you email the list you are communicating not only
with the person you are replying to, but with everyone that ever subscribed
to the list.

When you conduct protracted conversations that are nothing to do with PHP,
it is tantamount to spamming those people.

Cheers
Joe

On Fri, 4 Mar 2022 at 09:25, Lynn  wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 9:17 AM Kalle Sommer Nielsen  wrote:
>
> > Den fre. 4. mar. 2022 kl. 01.18 skrev Lynn :
> > > Not making a statement is also making a statement.
> >
> > I disagree, assuming a stance without understanding the context is
> insanity
> >
> >
> What context are we not understanding?
>

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Victor Bolshov]

Exactly. What context are we not understanding? Condemn war. Peace is 
the only side PHP is about to take, it is ALWAYS good to be for peace 
and against war. Is this going to separate the PHP community in any 
way? No. Just - NO. Easy as that.


On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 09:25, Lynn  wrote:
On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 9:17 AM Kalle Sommer Nielsen > wrote:


 Den fre. 4. mar. 2022 kl. 01.18 skrev Lynn >:

 > Not making a statement is also making a statement.

 I disagree, assuming a stance without understanding the context is 
insanity




What context are we not understanding?

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Lynn]

On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 9:17 AM Kalle Sommer Nielsen  wrote:

> Den fre. 4. mar. 2022 kl. 01.18 skrev Lynn :
> > Not making a statement is also making a statement.
>
> I disagree, assuming a stance without understanding the context is insanity
>
>
What context are we not understanding?

Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Kalle Sommer Nielsen]

Den fre. 4. mar. 2022 kl. 01.38 skrev Eugene Sidelnyk :
>
> You can't just go the usual way like nothing happens. This is the same as if 
> you know someone dying and say: well, I can't help with anything, so I will 
> do nothing against it. Inaction in such cases offends people. Banner is the 
> least possible, still useful way to help and people will know you are trying 
> to help whatever you think you can help.

Trying to push on people's feelings is also offending, or rather
trying to weaponize it as part of your personal agenda to get what you
want.

-- 
regards,

Kalle Sommer Nielsen
ka...@php.net

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Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP Community to support Ukraine and help to stop Russian agression

[Kalle Sommer Nielsen]

Den fre. 4. mar. 2022 kl. 01.18 skrev Lynn :
> Not making a statement is also making a statement.

I disagree, assuming a stance without understanding the context is insanity

-- 
regards,

Kalle Sommer Nielsen
ka...@php.net

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