Re: [PHP-DEV] Opcache::get($key), set($key, $value) to shared memory, is planned in PHP 7.1?

[Joe Watkins]

Morning Yasuo,

> Mm save handler does not compile with ZTS currently.

libmm is not intended for use in multi-threaded environments ... mostly
because threads don't need to map memory to share, they are already in the
same address space.

Another problem is processing models. PHP in NTS mode is highly likely to
be deployed in some prefork multi processing model, this is a suitable
environment for sharing with mapped memory.

In ZTS mode, multi processing models are different, they are not always
prefork, and so it's not always possible to share memory, nor is it always
possible to create the right kind of synchronization primitives, some
systems just lack that ability.

There's probably not much point in trying to do anything about the mm
handler, I doubt it is really used that much ...

Cheers
Joe


On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Yasuo Ohgaki  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 4:44 PM, Remi Collet 
> wrote:
> > Le 25/04/2016 à 16:09, S.A.N a écrit :
> >> In userland  lacks the ability to store data in the shared memory
> >> modules, do not use pecl modules, it would be very nice to have a
> >> function:
> >>
> >> opcache_get($key);
> >> opcache_set($key, $value);
> >
> > Opcache is an opcode cache.
> >
> > A user data cache is something really different.
> >
> > We learn from the past, having both in the same extension (APC) was an
> > mistake.
> >
> > So I really think, this doesn't have to be added in opache.
> >
> > And various extensions already exist (apcu, yac, memcache(d), redis...)
> > each for different needs.
>
> They are different thing. That said
>
> Are we going to have race condition free shared memory API by default?
>
> If yes, I'll use it for mm save handler (session save handler that
> uses shared memory) storage. Mm save handler does not compile with ZTS
> currently. Mm save handler would be nice for small web sites. It could
> be default save handler and many apps/sites will have performance
> boost.
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Yasuo Ohgaki
> yohg...@ohgaki.net
>
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>
>

Re: [PHP-DEV] Opcache::get($key), set($key, $value) to shared memory, is planned in PHP 7.1?

[Yasuo Ohgaki]

Hi all,

On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 4:44 PM, Remi Collet  wrote:
> Le 25/04/2016 à 16:09, S.A.N a écrit :
>> In userland  lacks the ability to store data in the shared memory
>> modules, do not use pecl modules, it would be very nice to have a
>> function:
>>
>> opcache_get($key);
>> opcache_set($key, $value);
>
> Opcache is an opcode cache.
>
> A user data cache is something really different.
>
> We learn from the past, having both in the same extension (APC) was an
> mistake.
>
> So I really think, this doesn't have to be added in opache.
>
> And various extensions already exist (apcu, yac, memcache(d), redis...)
> each for different needs.

They are different thing. That said

Are we going to have race condition free shared memory API by default?

If yes, I'll use it for mm save handler (session save handler that
uses shared memory) storage. Mm save handler does not compile with ZTS
currently. Mm save handler would be nice for small web sites. It could
be default save handler and many apps/sites will have performance
boost.

Regards,

--
Yasuo Ohgaki
yohg...@ohgaki.net

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Opcache::get($key), set($key, $value) to shared memory, is planned in PHP 7.1?

[S.A.N]

2016-04-26 10:44 GMT+03:00 Remi Collet :
> Le 25/04/2016 à 16:09, S.A.N a écrit :
>> In userland  lacks the ability to store data in the shared memory
>> modules, do not use pecl modules, it would be very nice to have a
>> function:
>>
>> opcache_get($key);
>> opcache_set($key, $value);
>
> Opcache is an opcode cache.
>
> A user data cache is something really different.
>
> We learn from the past, having both in the same extension (APC) was an
> mistake.
>
> So I really think, this doesn't have to be added in opache.
>
> And various extensions already exist (apcu, yac, memcache(d), redis...)

Ok, I agree.
Thank.

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Opcache::get($key), set($key, $value) to shared memory, is planned in PHP 7.1?

[Remi Collet]

Le 25/04/2016 à 16:09, S.A.N a écrit :
> In userland  lacks the ability to store data in the shared memory
> modules, do not use pecl modules, it would be very nice to have a
> function:
> 
> opcache_get($key);
> opcache_set($key, $value);

Opcache is an opcode cache.

A user data cache is something really different.

We learn from the past, having both in the same extension (APC) was an
mistake.

So I really think, this doesn't have to be added in opache.

And various extensions already exist (apcu, yac, memcache(d), redis...)
each for different needs.

Remi.


> 
> Is planned in PHP 7.1?
> 




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Re: [PHP-DEV] Opcache::get($key), set($key, $value) to shared memory, is planned in PHP 7.1?

[Joe Watkins]

Morning,

To answer the question; No, there is no plan to add that.

The allocator in opcache is simply not suitable for that kind of use.
We could make it suitable, but the optimal allocator for a user cache, and
the optimal allocator for a code cache, are different things.

IMO they belong separately.

Cheers
Joe

On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 4:17 AM, Xinchen Hui  wrote:

> Hey:
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 10:09 PM, S.A.N  wrote:
>
> > In userland  lacks the ability to store data in the shared memory
> > modules, do not use pecl modules, it would be very nice to have a
> > function:
> >
> > opcache_get($key);
> > opcache_set($key, $value);
> >
> > Is planned in PHP 7.1?
> >
> you could try https://github.com/laruence/yac
>
> it's a  "A fast shared memory user data cache for PHP "
>
> thanks
>
> > --
> > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Xinchen Hui
> @Laruence
> http://www.laruence.com/
>

Re: [PHP-DEV] Opcache::get($key), set($key, $value) to shared memory, is planned in PHP 7.1?

[Xinchen Hui]

Hey:



On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 10:09 PM, S.A.N  wrote:

> In userland  lacks the ability to store data in the shared memory
> modules, do not use pecl modules, it would be very nice to have a
> function:
>
> opcache_get($key);
> opcache_set($key, $value);
>
> Is planned in PHP 7.1?
>
you could try https://github.com/laruence/yac

it's a  "A fast shared memory user data cache for PHP "

thanks

> --
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>



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@Laruence
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Re: [PHP-DEV] Opcache::get($key), set($key, $value) to shared memory, is planned in PHP 7.1?

[S.A.N]

> Meanwhile, you haven't addressed the point being made as a reason not to
> bundle, which is that this is not a universally-useful solution, and there
> needs to be some reason why this needs to be incorporated - under whatever
> name - any more urgently than a memcache driver, or a redis driver, or
> igbinary serialisation, or any one of dozens of other extensions.

Redis, Memcached - single threaded and network latency.

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Opcache::get($key), set($key, $value) to shared memory, is planned in PHP 7.1?

[Rowan Collins]

On 25/04/2016 19:07, S.A.N wrote:

I am not against third-party libraries, I want to have this
functionality out of the box, it seems to me correct to make these
functions in OPCache, instead of adding  Apcu to PHP core, IMHO...


Literally the only difference between including APCu in core and adding 
this to OpCache is the name of the resulting functions. The result 
either way is that you would have the functionality out of the box, and 
the PHP core devs would need to maintain it.


Meanwhile, you haven't addressed the point being made as a reason not to 
bundle, which is that this is not a universally-useful solution, and 
there needs to be some reason why this needs to be incorporated - under 
whatever name - any more urgently than a memcache driver, or a redis 
driver, or igbinary serialisation, or any one of dozens of other extensions.


Regards,

--
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[IMSoP]


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Re: [PHP-DEV] Opcache::get($key), set($key, $value) to shared memory, is planned in PHP 7.1?

[Arvids Godjuks]

On Mon, 25 Apr 2016, 21:07 S.A.N,  wrote:

> 2016-04-25 20:56 GMT+03:00 Rowan Collins :
> > S.A.N wrote on 25/04/2016 18:49:
> >>>
> >>> There's not really a huge connection between opcode caching and
> >>> optimization
> >>> >(OpCache) and shared memory data caches (APCu, memcached, etc), so I
> >>> > don't
> >>> >think there's any particular logic to calling such functions
> "opcache".
> >>> >
> >>> >So I guess the question becomes: "should APCu be made part of core?"
> I'm
> >>> > not
> >>> >aware of anyone having proposed that, so don't know if there are
> strong
> >>> >feelings for or against such a thing.
> >>
> >> Yes, there are a lot of libraries to work with shared memory, but why
> >> should they if there OPcache in core PHP?
> >> Functions get, set key values will be useful and in demand.
> >
> >
> > Because different situations call for different functionality. If the
> only
> > reason not to use APCu was the need to install a PECL extension, then
> nobody
> > would have implemented a PECL extension for Memcache, or Redis, etc.
> >
> > Storing data in PHP's shared memory has several downsides - for instance,
> > inability to share with CLI / services built in other languages,
> > non-persistent across server restarts, not shareable across instances,
> etc.
> > For you, these may not be an issue, but to say that "if APCu
> functionality
> > was in core, nobody would need any other memory cache" is somewhat naive.
>
> I am not against third-party libraries, I want to have this
> functionality out of the box, it seems to me correct to make these
> functions in OPCache, instead of adding  Apcu to PHP core, IMHO...
>

A little history lesson - combining an opcode cache and data storage is one
of the reasons APC died - it got too complex and too convoluted in the end.
Yes, there were other reasons too, but this one was one of the big one.

Getting that functionality into the core is not bad idea, but never ever
ever mix it with the opcode cache. Keep them separate.

>

Re: [PHP-DEV] Opcache::get($key), set($key, $value) to shared memory, is planned in PHP 7.1?

[Lester Caine]

On 25/04/16 19:07, S.A.N wrote:
> I am not against third-party libraries, I want to have this
> functionality out of the box, it seems to me correct to make these
> functions in OPCache, instead of adding  Apcu to PHP core, IMHO...

So how do you then manage the data when the PHP servers are spread
across multiple machines? Shared data needs to exist across space as
well as time, and the increasing use of virtual services needs
persistent data that is not reliant on the same memory storing that
data? This is not something that can easily be added unless all the
restrictions are fully understood.

-- 
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Re: [PHP-DEV] Opcache::get($key), set($key, $value) to shared memory, is planned in PHP 7.1?

[Marco Pivetta]

On 25 April 2016 at 20:07, S.A.N  wrote:

> 2016-04-25 20:56 GMT+03:00 Rowan Collins :
> > S.A.N wrote on 25/04/2016 18:49:
> >>>
> >>> There's not really a huge connection between opcode caching and
> >>> optimization
> >>> >(OpCache) and shared memory data caches (APCu, memcached, etc), so I
> >>> > don't
> >>> >think there's any particular logic to calling such functions
> "opcache".
> >>> >
> >>> >So I guess the question becomes: "should APCu be made part of core?"
> I'm
> >>> > not
> >>> >aware of anyone having proposed that, so don't know if there are
> strong
> >>> >feelings for or against such a thing.
> >>
> >> Yes, there are a lot of libraries to work with shared memory, but why
> >> should they if there OPcache in core PHP?
> >> Functions get, set key values will be useful and in demand.
> >
> >
> > Because different situations call for different functionality. If the
> only
> > reason not to use APCu was the need to install a PECL extension, then
> nobody
> > would have implemented a PECL extension for Memcache, or Redis, etc.
> >
> > Storing data in PHP's shared memory has several downsides - for instance,
> > inability to share with CLI / services built in other languages,
> > non-persistent across server restarts, not shareable across instances,
> etc.
> > For you, these may not be an issue, but to say that "if APCu
> functionality
> > was in core, nobody would need any other memory cache" is somewhat naive.
>
> I am not against third-party libraries, I want to have this
> functionality out of the box, it seems to me correct to make these
> functions in OPCache, instead of adding  Apcu to PHP core, IMHO...
>

You are still asking for a tool that does a very precise and single thing
to be re-purposed into a completely different scope.

Use the right tool for the right job: including APCu would be much
clearer/simpler than making OpCache an all-purpose shared memory space for
userland.

Marco Pivetta

http://twitter.com/Ocramius

http://ocramius.github.com/

Re: [PHP-DEV] Opcache::get($key), set($key, $value) to shared memory, is planned in PHP 7.1?

[S.A.N]

2016-04-25 20:56 GMT+03:00 Rowan Collins :
> S.A.N wrote on 25/04/2016 18:49:
>>>
>>> There's not really a huge connection between opcode caching and
>>> optimization
>>> >(OpCache) and shared memory data caches (APCu, memcached, etc), so I
>>> > don't
>>> >think there's any particular logic to calling such functions "opcache".
>>> >
>>> >So I guess the question becomes: "should APCu be made part of core?" I'm
>>> > not
>>> >aware of anyone having proposed that, so don't know if there are strong
>>> >feelings for or against such a thing.
>>
>> Yes, there are a lot of libraries to work with shared memory, but why
>> should they if there OPcache in core PHP?
>> Functions get, set key values will be useful and in demand.
>
>
> Because different situations call for different functionality. If the only
> reason not to use APCu was the need to install a PECL extension, then nobody
> would have implemented a PECL extension for Memcache, or Redis, etc.
>
> Storing data in PHP's shared memory has several downsides - for instance,
> inability to share with CLI / services built in other languages,
> non-persistent across server restarts, not shareable across instances, etc.
> For you, these may not be an issue, but to say that "if APCu functionality
> was in core, nobody would need any other memory cache" is somewhat naive.

I am not against third-party libraries, I want to have this
functionality out of the box, it seems to me correct to make these
functions in OPCache, instead of adding  Apcu to PHP core, IMHO...

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Opcache::get($key), set($key, $value) to shared memory, is planned in PHP 7.1?

[Rowan Collins]

S.A.N wrote on 25/04/2016 18:49:

There's not really a huge connection between opcode caching and optimization
>(OpCache) and shared memory data caches (APCu, memcached, etc), so I don't
>think there's any particular logic to calling such functions "opcache".
>
>So I guess the question becomes: "should APCu be made part of core?" I'm not
>aware of anyone having proposed that, so don't know if there are strong
>feelings for or against such a thing.

Yes, there are a lot of libraries to work with shared memory, but why
should they if there OPcache in core PHP?
Functions get, set key values will be useful and in demand.


Because different situations call for different functionality. If the 
only reason not to use APCu was the need to install a PECL extension, 
then nobody would have implemented a PECL extension for Memcache, or 
Redis, etc.


Storing data in PHP's shared memory has several downsides - for 
instance, inability to share with CLI / services built in other 
languages, non-persistent across server restarts, not shareable across 
instances, etc. For you, these may not be an issue, but to say that "if 
APCu functionality was in core, nobody would need any other memory 
cache" is somewhat naive.


Regards,
--
Rowan Collins
[IMSoP]

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Opcache::get($key), set($key, $value) to shared memory, is planned in PHP 7.1?

[Marco Pivetta]

This seems to mix the concerns of an opcode cache (saves opcodes) with a
user-cache (saves mixed data).

You should just use APCu for that.

Marco Pivetta

http://twitter.com/Ocramius

http://ocramius.github.com/

On 25 April 2016 at 19:49, S.A.N  wrote:

> 2016-04-25 17:36 GMT+03:00 Rowan Collins :
> > S.A.N wrote on 25/04/2016 15:09:
> >>
> >> In userland  lacks the ability to store data in the shared memory
> >> modules, do not use pecl modules, it would be very nice to have a
> >> function:
> >>
> >> opcache_get($key);
> >> opcache_set($key, $value);
> >>
> >> Is planned in PHP 7.1?
> >>
> >
> > This was identified as a difference between APC and OpCache when the
> latter
> > was added to core several releases ago, and that's exactly why APCu
> exists:
> > http://php.net/apcu
> >
> > There's not really a huge connection between opcode caching and
> optimization
> > (OpCache) and shared memory data caches (APCu, memcached, etc), so I
> don't
> > think there's any particular logic to calling such functions "opcache".
> >
> > So I guess the question becomes: "should APCu be made part of core?" I'm
> not
> > aware of anyone having proposed that, so don't know if there are strong
> > feelings for or against such a thing.
>
> Yes, there are a lot of libraries to work with shared memory, but why
> should they if there OPcache in core PHP?
> Functions get, set key values will be useful and in demand.
>
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>
>

Re: [PHP-DEV] Opcache::get($key), set($key, $value) to shared memory, is planned in PHP 7.1?

[S.A.N]

2016-04-25 17:36 GMT+03:00 Rowan Collins :
> S.A.N wrote on 25/04/2016 15:09:
>>
>> In userland  lacks the ability to store data in the shared memory
>> modules, do not use pecl modules, it would be very nice to have a
>> function:
>>
>> opcache_get($key);
>> opcache_set($key, $value);
>>
>> Is planned in PHP 7.1?
>>
>
> This was identified as a difference between APC and OpCache when the latter
> was added to core several releases ago, and that's exactly why APCu exists:
> http://php.net/apcu
>
> There's not really a huge connection between opcode caching and optimization
> (OpCache) and shared memory data caches (APCu, memcached, etc), so I don't
> think there's any particular logic to calling such functions "opcache".
>
> So I guess the question becomes: "should APCu be made part of core?" I'm not
> aware of anyone having proposed that, so don't know if there are strong
> feelings for or against such a thing.

Yes, there are a lot of libraries to work with shared memory, but why
should they if there OPcache in core PHP?
Functions get, set key values will be useful and in demand.

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Opcache::get($key), set($key, $value) to shared memory, is planned in PHP 7.1?

[Rowan Collins]

André Rømcke wrote on 25/04/2016 18:00:

>So I guess the question becomes: "should APCu be made part of core?" I'm not 
aware of anyone having proposed that, so don't know if there are strong feelings for or 
against such a thing.

As long as it’s cache is not shared among processes, rather not.
A user cache needs to be able to be shared between cli and web process to cover 
the main use cases imo.



Yeah, there are many key-value, document-based, and NoSQL stores these 
days (memcached, redis, couchbase, mongo, etc), and while APCu might be 
the best in some circumstances, I'm inclined to say it doesn't deserve 
special privilege within default builds.


Regards,
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[IMSoP]

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Re: [PHP-DEV] Opcache::get($key), set($key, $value) to shared memory, is planned in PHP 7.1?

[André Rømcke]

> On 25 Apr 2016, at 16:36 , Rowan Collins  wrote:
> 
> S.A.N wrote on 25/04/2016 15:09:
>> In userland  lacks the ability to store data in the shared memory
>> modules, do not use pecl modules, it would be very nice to have a
>> function:
>> 
>> opcache_get($key);
>> opcache_set($key, $value);
>> 
>> Is planned in PHP 7.1?
>> 
> 
> This was identified as a difference between APC and OpCache when the latter 
> was added to core several releases ago, and that's exactly why APCu exists: 
> http://php.net/apcu
> 
> There's not really a huge connection between opcode caching and optimization 
> (OpCache) and shared memory data caches (APCu, memcached, etc), so I don't 
> think there's any particular logic to calling such functions "opcache".
> 
> So I guess the question becomes: "should APCu be made part of core?" I'm not 
> aware of anyone having proposed that, so don't know if there are strong 
> feelings for or against such a thing.


As long as it’s cache is not shared among processes, rather not.
A user cache needs to be able to be shared between cli and web process to cover 
the main use cases imo.

Re: [PHP-DEV] Opcache::get($key), set($key, $value) to shared memory, is planned in PHP 7.1?

[Rowan Collins]

S.A.N wrote on 25/04/2016 15:09:

In userland  lacks the ability to store data in the shared memory
modules, do not use pecl modules, it would be very nice to have a
function:

opcache_get($key);
opcache_set($key, $value);

Is planned in PHP 7.1?



This was identified as a difference between APC and OpCache when the 
latter was added to core several releases ago, and that's exactly why 
APCu exists: http://php.net/apcu


There's not really a huge connection between opcode caching and 
optimization (OpCache) and shared memory data caches (APCu, memcached, 
etc), so I don't think there's any particular logic to calling such 
functions "opcache".


So I guess the question becomes: "should APCu be made part of core?" I'm 
not aware of anyone having proposed that, so don't know if there are 
strong feelings for or against such a thing.


Regards,
--
Rowan Collins
[IMSoP]

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