[IRCA] Opinions requested on documenting station swaps
I'm playing with radio station history again and I'm doing battle with myself about how to document station swaps. I'll give two examples. Example #1: A few years back, KLOC/920/Ceres CA format moved to KVIN/1390/Turlock CA, and the KVIN format moved over to KLOC. The call letters swapped with the format change. From a listener's perspective, that is a frequency change and the city change is transparent to the listener. From the FCC perspective, its two call letter changes for two separate facilities and who cares about the formats. Example #2: Recently, KERN/1410/Bakersfield CA swapped formats and call letters with KERI/1180/Wasco CA. As with example #1, the listener finds their favorite station on a new frequency, and the city change is transparent. The FCC sees it as two call letter changes for two facilities. I'm on the fence and looking for opinions on how this should be properly documented. ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
[IRCA] Tone tester on 1540
At 04:15am CST someone is running a tone test. Steady tone, occasional shifting frequency up/down, occasionally on/off. Loop bearing nw/se under KXEL. Tom Jasinski Joliet, IL ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
[IRCA] wierd tones on 1520 and 1540
Am hearing wierd tones on both 1520 USB and 1540 LSB. Could this be generated by someone on 1530khz. Tom Jasinski Joliet, IL ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Re: [IRCA] Opinions requested on documenting station swaps
As for myself, I counted both KERN and KERI as new loggings at their new dial positions. I'll always think of KERN as being 1410 since they were there forever it seems. There have been so many two-way and even three-way frequency swaps in recent years that one cannot always keep track. I'll always think of KOY Phoenix AZ as the station on 550 (from the valley of the sun, as the jingle used to go.) Now they're on GY frequency 1230 where I've probably logged at least 8 sets of Phoenix call letters over the years. Perhaps putting a foot notation in your logbook of the whens, hows, and whys of the frequency swap / call swap would be the way to go. As for KERI, they evolved from the former KWSO 1050, a religious station in Wasco CA. In recent years when KERI would sign off they would mention that they were owned and operated by KWSO incorporated. KYNO Fresno switched from longtime dial position of 1300 to 940 recently. I think KAFY calls in Bakersfield have been on at least thr! ee different frequencies. What happened with KTRB Modesto almost defies logic. The only constant is change. It's up to each DXer to keep logs in a manner that works best for him or her (keeping honesty and accuracy as the focus.) I've always kept two log books, one chronological, and one by frequency. Another interesting aspect is what if a station changes call signs, then changes back again, then repeats the process and changes back yet again. Do you keep logging it?? I dont think I would log the same calls on the same frequency twice, but I might make a note of it (such as KEZY 1190 Anaheim coming back in 1984..) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 00:13:14 -0800 From: michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: [IRCA] Opinions requested on documenting station swaps I'm playing with radio station history again and I'm doing battle with myself about how to document station swaps. I'll give two examples. Example #1: A few years back, KLOC/920/Ceres CA format moved to KVIN/1390/Turlock CA, and the KVIN format moved over to KLOC. The call letters swapped with the format change. From a listener's perspective, that is a frequency change and the city change is transparent to the listener. From the FCC perspective, its two call letter changes for two separate facilities and who cares about the formats. Example #2: Recently, KERN/1410/Bakersfield CA swapped formats and call letters with KERI/1180/Wasco CA. As with example #1, the listener finds their favorite station on a new frequency, and the city change is transparent. The FCC sees it as two call letter changes for two facilities. I'm on the fence and looking for opinions on how this should be properly documented. ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Re: [IRCA] Opinions requested on documenting station swaps
To me these are call changes. I note them in my logs, ( and would do so again should they change again down the road ) but I don't count them in my totals. I know that others do things differently, but many do it this way also. At one time, I counted call changes, however I realized that as the different calls had no effect on my ability to hear the station or not, and the facilities were the same, that counting them no longer made sense, so I re-did my logs at the time to that effect. Russ Edmunds 15 mi NNW of Philadelphia Grid FN20id wb2...@yahoo.com FM: Yamaha T-80 Onkyo T-450RDS w/ APS9B @15'; Grundig G8 AM: Modified Sony ICF 2010's barefoot --- On Tue, 1/18/11, Mike Hawkins michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com wrote: From: Mike Hawkins michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com Subject: [IRCA] Opinions requested on documenting station swaps To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America irca@hard-core-dx.com Date: Tuesday, January 18, 2011, 3:13 AM I'm playing with radio station history again and I'm doing battle with myself about how to document station swaps. I'll give two examples. Example #1: A few years back, KLOC/920/Ceres CA format moved to KVIN/1390/Turlock CA, and the KVIN format moved over to KLOC. The call letters swapped with the format change. From a listener's perspective, that is a frequency change and the city change is transparent to the listener. From the FCC perspective, its two call letter changes for two separate facilities and who cares about the formats. Example #2: Recently, KERN/1410/Bakersfield CA swapped formats and call letters with KERI/1180/Wasco CA. As with example #1, the listener finds their favorite station on a new frequency, and the city change is transparent. The FCC sees it as two call letter changes for two facilities. I'm on the fence and looking for opinions on how this should be properly documented. ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Re: [IRCA] Opinions requested on documenting station swaps
My approach is, I guess, to log the actual stick in the ground (the tower/antenna) on a given frequency. If the same antenna switches frequency, then for me it would be a new station. However, I treat call sign changes about the same way I would treat format changes, and note them as sorta cosmetic changes on the same station. The one thing I am on the fence about is where the station gets approval for a pattern and/or power change. For example, KRKO-1380 up here recently went to a jillion watts compared to what they were putting out before, and have a new tower, transmitter and IBOC exciter (sigh...). Logging them now is a lot easier than it was. For someone in Montana, they went from being a tough catch to perhaps a pest. It's as if there is a completely different station there from a DXing point of view, yet they have the same physical location and frequency. What to do? Kevin S Bainbridge Island, WA --- Original Message --- From: Russ Edmunds[mailto:wb2...@yahoo.com] Sent: 1/18/2011 5:01:57 AM To : irca@hard-core-dx.com Cc : Subject : RE: Re: [IRCA] Opinions requested on documenting station swaps To me these are call changes. I note them in my logs, ( and would do so again should they change again down the road ) but I don't count them in my totals. I know that others do things differently, but many do it this way also. At one time, I counted call changes, however I realized that as the different calls had no effect on my ability to hear the station or not, and the facilities were the same, that counting them no longer made sense, so I re-did my logs at the time to that effect. Russ Edmunds 15 mi NNW of Philadelphia Grid FN20id wb2...@yahoo.com FM: Yamaha T-80 Onkyo T-450RDS w/ APS9B @15'; Grundig G8 AM: Modified Sony ICF 2010's barefoot --- On Tue, 1/18/11, Mike Hawkins michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com wrote: From: Mike Hawkins michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com Subject: [IRCA] Opinions requested on documenting station swaps To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America irca@hard-core-dx.com Date: Tuesday, January 18, 2011, 3:13 AM I'm playing with radio station history again and I'm doing battle with myself about how to document station swaps. I'll give two examples. Example #1: A few years back, KLOC/920/Ceres CA format moved to KVIN/1390/Turlock CA, and the KVIN format moved over to KLOC. The call letters swapped with the format change. From a listener's perspective, that is a frequency change and the city change is transparent to the listener. From the FCC perspective, its two call letter changes for two separate facilities and who cares about the formats. Example #2: Recently, KERN/1410/Bakersfield CA swapped formats and call letters with KERI/1180/Wasco CA. As with example #1, the listener finds their favorite station on a new frequency, and the city change is transparent. The FCC sees it as two call letter changes for two facilities. I'm on the fence and looking for opinions on how this should be properly documented. ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Re: [IRCA] Opinions requested on documenting station swaps
Mike Hawkins wrote: I'm playing with radio station history again and I'm doing battle with myself about how to document station swaps. I'll give two examples. Example #1: A few years back, KLOC/920/Ceres CA format moved to KVIN/1390/Turlock CA, and the KVIN format moved over to KLOC. The call letters swapped with the format change. From a listener's perspective, that is a frequency change and the city change is transparent to the listener. From the FCC perspective, its two call letter changes for two separate facilities and who cares about the formats. Example #2: Recently, KERN/1410/Bakersfield CA swapped formats and call letters with KERI/1180/Wasco CA. As with example #1, the listener finds their favorite station on a new frequency, and the city change is transparent. The FCC sees it as two call letter changes for two facilities. I'm on the fence and looking for opinions on how this should be properly documented. There's really no difference between those examples from the FCC's point of view. Let me back up a little: when the FCC implemented its current database system (CDBS, Consolidated Database System) in the 90s, it moved away from using callsigns as the primary internal identifier for each station. Instead, they assign each station a unique facility ID number. So to the FCC, 1410 in Bakersfield is 6640 and 1180 in Wasco is 35899, and all that happened, as you correctly note, was that 6640 changed calls from KERN to KERI and 1180 changed calls from KERI to KERN. However it was promoted to listeners - KERN Newsradio is moving to 1180! - is of no interest to the FCC. Having said that, then, the guidance I'd offer is to treat call swaps like this no differently from the way you'd handle any other call change. If you'd have counted a new logging if 1410 had changed calls from KERN to KQPX, then you should also count it as new if you logged them after changing from KERN to KERI. But if you don't count a garden-variety call change as a new logging, there's no reason to treat these swaps as new loggings. (Given the rapidity with which callsigns change these days, and the fact that a call change by itself makes no difference in a station's DXability, I am not in favor of counting call changes as new loggings, period, but that's a separate discussion.) As for the larger question of what *should* then constitute a new logging, there's now a huge amount of information available for the DXer interested in learning the specific details of a station change. A generation ago (heck, even a decade and change ago), you pretty much had to go to the FCC in Washington to see the files that contained stations' engineering applications. Today, those details are as close as the FCC's own website (or a bunch of others, like the excellent and free FCCInfo.com, that present it in a more understandable form.) So the technology and data exist (at least for US and Canadian stations) for us to slice and dice the definition of new logging however we'd like. Many of us maintain home DX logs that contain only loggings made within 25 miles of our QTH. One could do the same with transmitter sites: if a station moves more than 25 miles, consider it a new logging. (That would handle the what to do with KTRB question neatly.) Or, with a bit of more sophisticated data management, one *could* say that any change made by a station that would alter its predicted signal strength at your QTH by more than some determined number (+/- 3 dB? 6 dB? 10 dB?) would be considered a new logging. But this is a hobby, after all, not a science. I *have* to track all these FCC changes because it's my job. I wouldn't want to do it as a hobby; life is too short, at least from where I sit. The point I'm making here is simply that it's probably worth having this discussion in greater depth at some point, given how much information is available to us *if* we want to avail ourselves of it. s ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Re: [IRCA] Opinions requested on documenting station swaps
For me, if the station changes frequency or city of license, then I count as a new station. As for Call letter or format changes I do re-log the station but it does not add to my totals since there is no change at the transmitter site. This is my 2 cents worth. James Niven Cedar Creek, Texas jni...@austin.rr.com -Original Message- From: irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com [mailto:irca-boun...@hard-core-dx.com] On Behalf Of sa...@sounddsl.com Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 9:18 AM To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] Opinions requested on documenting station swaps My approach is, I guess, to log the actual stick in the ground (the tower/antenna) on a given frequency. If the same antenna switches frequency, then for me it would be a new station. However, I treat call sign changes about the same way I would treat format changes, and note them as sorta cosmetic changes on the same station. The one thing I am on the fence about is where the station gets approval for a pattern and/or power change. For example, KRKO-1380 up here recently went to a jillion watts compared to what they were putting out before, and have a new tower, transmitter and IBOC exciter (sigh...). Logging them now is a lot easier than it was. For someone in Montana, they went from being a tough catch to perhaps a pest. It's as if there is a completely different station there from a DXing point of view, yet they have the same physical location and frequency. What to do? Kevin S Bainbridge Island, WA --- Original Message --- From: Russ Edmunds[mailto:wb2...@yahoo.com] Sent: 1/18/2011 5:01:57 AM To : irca@hard-core-dx.com Cc : Subject : RE: Re: [IRCA] Opinions requested on documenting station swaps To me these are call changes. I note them in my logs, ( and would do so again should they change again down the road ) but I don't count them in my totals. I know that others do things differently, but many do it this way also. At one time, I counted call changes, however I realized that as the different calls had no effect on my ability to hear the station or not, and the facilities were the same, that counting them no longer made sense, so I re-did my logs at the time to that effect. Russ Edmunds 15 mi NNW of Philadelphia Grid FN20id wb2...@yahoo.com FM: Yamaha T-80 Onkyo T-450RDS w/ APS9B @15'; Grundig G8 AM: Modified Sony ICF 2010's barefoot --- On Tue, 1/18/11, Mike Hawkins michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com wrote: From: Mike Hawkins michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com Subject: [IRCA] Opinions requested on documenting station swaps To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America irca@hard-core-dx.com Date: Tuesday, January 18, 2011, 3:13 AM I'm playing with radio station history again and I'm doing battle with myself about how to document station swaps. I'll give two examples. Example #1: A few years back, KLOC/920/Ceres CA format moved to KVIN/1390/Turlock CA, and the KVIN format moved over to KLOC. The call letters swapped with the format change. From a listener's perspective, that is a frequency change and the city change is transparent to the listener. From the FCC perspective, its two call letter changes for two separate facilities and who cares about the formats. Example #2: Recently, KERN/1410/Bakersfield CA swapped formats and call letters with KERI/1180/Wasco CA. As with example #1, the listener finds their favorite station on a new frequency, and the city change is transparent. The FCC sees it as two call letter changes for two facilities. I'm on the fence and looking for opinions on how this should be properly documented. ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Re: [IRCA] Opinions requested on documenting station swaps
I like that Facility ID number as the identifier. Hmmany way to get that incorporated into the AM Log? On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 1:19 PM, Scott Fybush sc...@fybush.com wrote: Mike Hawkins wrote: I'm playing with radio station history again and I'm doing battle with myself about how to document station swaps. I'll give two examples. Example #1: A few years back, KLOC/920/Ceres CA format moved to KVIN/1390/Turlock CA, and the KVIN format moved over to KLOC. The call letters swapped with the format change. From a listener's perspective, that is a frequency change and the city change is transparent to the listener. From the FCC perspective, its two call letter changes for two separate facilities and who cares about the formats. Example #2: Recently, KERN/1410/Bakersfield CA swapped formats and call letters with KERI/1180/Wasco CA. As with example #1, the listener finds their favorite station on a new frequency, and the city change is transparent. The FCC sees it as two call letter changes for two facilities. I'm on the fence and looking for opinions on how this should be properly documented. There's really no difference between those examples from the FCC's point of view. Let me back up a little: when the FCC implemented its current database system (CDBS, Consolidated Database System) in the 90s, it moved away from using callsigns as the primary internal identifier for each station. Instead, they assign each station a unique facility ID number. So to the FCC, 1410 in Bakersfield is 6640 and 1180 in Wasco is 35899, and all that happened, as you correctly note, was that 6640 changed calls from KERN to KERI and 1180 changed calls from KERI to KERN. However it was promoted to listeners - KERN Newsradio is moving to 1180! - is of no interest to the FCC. Having said that, then, the guidance I'd offer is to treat call swaps like this no differently from the way you'd handle any other call change. If you'd have counted a new logging if 1410 had changed calls from KERN to KQPX, then you should also count it as new if you logged them after changing from KERN to KERI. But if you don't count a garden-variety call change as a new logging, there's no reason to treat these swaps as new loggings. (Given the rapidity with which callsigns change these days, and the fact that a call change by itself makes no difference in a station's DXability, I am not in favor of counting call changes as new loggings, period, but that's a separate discussion.) As for the larger question of what *should* then constitute a new logging, there's now a huge amount of information available for the DXer interested in learning the specific details of a station change. A generation ago (heck, even a decade and change ago), you pretty much had to go to the FCC in Washington to see the files that contained stations' engineering applications. Today, those details are as close as the FCC's own website (or a bunch of others, like the excellent and free FCCInfo.com, that present it in a more understandable form.) So the technology and data exist (at least for US and Canadian stations) for us to slice and dice the definition of new logging however we'd like. Many of us maintain home DX logs that contain only loggings made within 25 miles of our QTH. One could do the same with transmitter sites: if a station moves more than 25 miles, consider it a new logging. (That would handle the what to do with KTRB question neatly.) Or, with a bit of more sophisticated data management, one *could* say that any change made by a station that would alter its predicted signal strength at your QTH by more than some determined number (+/- 3 dB? 6 dB? 10 dB?) would be considered a new logging. But this is a hobby, after all, not a science. I *have* to track all these FCC changes because it's my job. I wouldn't want to do it as a hobby; life is too short, at least from where I sit. The point I'm making here is simply that it's probably worth having this discussion in greater depth at some point, given how much information is available to us *if* we want to avail ourselves of it. s ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com -- * The beginning of wisdom is to recognize the world as it is, not as what we wish it to be. * ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA,
Re: [IRCA] Opinions requested on documenting station swaps
Same principle here as in Kevin's first paragraph but unless it moves more than ~25-30 miles, I do not count local location / facilities changes on the same frequency. If a 250 watter in Iowa went to 10 Kw (or vice versa) on the same channel, I do not count it as new. I do count frequency changes, even on the same stick / site as each frequency would be a unique challenge. I do not note format / call changes in my logs or notes. Sometimes that bites me with rarely heard stations. -- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 07:17:49 -0800 From: sa...@sounddsl.com sa...@sounddsl.com To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] Opinions requested on documenting station swaps Message-ID: e1d45546640e480f870db5f1e4af1577.sa...@sounddsl.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 My approach is, I guess, to log the actual stick in the ground (the tower/antenna) on a given frequency. If the same antenna switches frequency, then for me it would be a new station. However, I treat call sign changes about the same way I would treat format changes, and note them as sorta cosmetic changes on the same station. The one thing I am on the fence about is where the station gets approval for a pattern and/or power change. For example, KRKO-1380 up here recently went to a jillion watts compared to what they were putting out before, and have a new tower, transmitter and IBOC exciter (sigh...). Logging them now is a lot easier than it was. For someone in Montana, they went from being a tough catch to perhaps a pest. It's as if there is a completely different station there from a DXing point of view, yet they have the same physical location and frequency. What to do? Kevin S Bainbridge Island, WA ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Re: [IRCA] Opinions requested on documenting station swaps
Scott, I used your reply as a reference here because it addresses two things. First is that FCC's website has so little information on it that is accessible outside the FCC that its rather useless. Tracking applications always results in major change, minor change, STA or license. I have not been able to view an authorization for many moons. There is little if any correspondence, and legal action is rare. Even asking FCC people about how to find info, the response has been that the site isn't designed to give much to people outside. If you can point me to a way to get meaningful info from their website, I'm all ears. Its obvious that their website frustrates me. Second is that I asked the question from the perspective of documenting radio history without any regard for logging of stations. DXers would be interested in history to varying degrees, but the perspective may be radically different. The two examples I gave - as well as the one Mike Sanburn mentioned - really highlight two different perspectives ... the listener noticing two frequency changes, and the FCC noting two call changes. Please note that I am not at all dismissing the DXer point of view (and obviously welcome that point of view since I asked the question here), but I am trying to consider as many different perspectives as possible...as long as they hold water. Mike On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 10:19 AM, Scott Fybush sc...@fybush.com wrote: As for the larger question of what *should* then constitute a new logging, there's now a huge amount of information available for the DXer interested in learning the specific details of a station change. A generation ago (heck, even a decade and change ago), you pretty much had to go to the FCC in Washington to see the files that contained stations' engineering applications. Today, those details are as close as the FCC's own website (or a bunch of others, like the excellent and free FCCInfo.com, that present it in a more understandable form.) Or, with a bit of more sophisticated data management, one *could* say that any change made by a station that would alter its predicted signal strength at your QTH by more than some determined number (+/- 3 dB? 6 dB? 10 dB?) would be considered a new logging. But this is a hobby, after all, not a science. I *have* to track all these FCC changes because it's my job. I wouldn't want to do it as a hobby; life is too short, at least from where I sit. The point I'm making here is simply that it's probably worth having this discussion in greater depth at some point, given how much information is available to us *if* we want to avail ourselves of it. s ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Re: [IRCA] Opinions requested on documenting station swaps
Mike Hawkins wrote: I used your reply as a reference here because it addresses two things. First is that FCC's website has so little information on it that is accessible outside the FCC that its rather useless. Tracking applications always results in major change, minor change, STA or license. I have not been able to view an authorization for many moons. There is little if any correspondence, and legal action is rare. Two things here: First, the FCC will soon be abandoning the CDBS database in favor of a new, more versatile database system that's being billed as having more direct public access. So much of what I'm about to explain will soon be obsolete. That said: there's actually lots of information accessible there. You just have to know where to look. Here are a few basic tips; I'm happy to go into greater detail either on- or off-list if there's interest. I find the quickest way into CDBS is through FCCInfo.com. It's a privately-operated site, and it's free. The basic searches are right at the top of the front page: search by callsign, COL, distance from a given community or set of coordinates, FCC facility ID number, etc. KTRB offers a good example. Plug those calls into the callsign search box, be sure you've checked the AM radio button to the left, and be sure you've checked the Include Archive Records box beneath the callsign. What comes up is this (watch for word wrap): http://fccinfo.com/CMDProFacLookup.php?sCurrentService=AMcalls=ktrbArchiveRecords=YtabSearchType=Call+Sign+Search There's a lot of chaff here, but also a lot of good information. Ignore all the 0 kW power entries for now - they represent FCC records with no engineering data attached. Ignore anything with a blank space or App in the Status column on the left. What matters to us are actual license records and construction permit records...and here's what turns up: there's a set of license records for the old Modesto facility, with 50 kW days and 10 kW nights. We know that's no longer active, because it shows up as an archived record. Then we see another set of licenses for the former 50/50 San Francisco-licensed facility. Those show up as archive records, too...but we can get at the engineering data for those, or for the Modesto facility, by clicking on the callsign for each entry. Then we have the current license. Unless the database records are screwy (and occasionally they are), there should only be one active set of license records for any given station. Click on those and we learn more about the current KTRB 50/50 facility - location (with a link to a Google map), tower layout, directional pattern and more. This page also gives us a link called Other KTRB Applications, which returns us to the FCC's own website, to the Application Search Page that can also be accessed directly from the FCC's AM Query: http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_list.pl?Facility_id=66246 This page links us to all the applications that are in CDBS; generally, that will include at least some information about anything filed after 1978, though detailed electronic applications only exist from the last decade or so. If the application was filed electronically (look for the E in the Paper/Elect column), you can see it by clicking the application list. Which brings us to the complex system of prefixes the FCC uses for apps. The ones that matter to us as DXers are BL-, which indicates an AM station's application for a license, BP-, an application for a construction permit, BMP-, an app to modify an existing construction permit, BMJP-, an application for a major modification (change COL, change frequency more than 30 kHz) and BSTA/BLSTA-, an application for special temporary authority. What you get when you click on the application link is the application itself, which often includes a full engineering narrative that explains in detail what the application intends to do. A good example is in the KTRB app to move from Modesto to San Francisco, which appears on the application list as BMJP-20020910AAB. The first part of the application consists of a bunch of form entries that are filled out by the applicant, but the meat is in the attachments. Keep scrolling down to the section marked exhibits, and here's your meat - a link marked ENGINEERING STATEMENT. That brings up this: https://licensing.fcc.gov/cdbs/CDBS_Attachment/getattachment.jsp?appn=100662136qnum=5110copynum=1exhcnum=1 which in turn tells us this: The application appended to this Statement proposes relocation of the transmitting site of AM Radio Station KTRB, pursuant to Commission Decision (Reference 1800B3-TSN, copy attached), which authorizes reassignment of community of license from Modesto, California to San Francisco, California. The transmitting site proposed herein is on Jersey Island within the delta region of the San Joaquin River. From this site predicted signal strength over
Re: [IRCA] Opinions requested on documenting station swaps
Scott, Thank you for this. I'm at work right now, so I have to remember my priorities, but I will try a few examples on the FCC site tonight when I have time. I have tracked almost all of the AM stations that have existed in US and Canada (its well over 20,000 entries), keeping track of changes in call/freq/COL. The 1950-1978 period is messy because FCC had nothing available before 1978. I have tons of docs covering up to 1950. I find it interesting that all of the docs I have are not on David Gleason's lists. If he could NOT kill the docs in the process, I would let him scan and add them to the collection. More later... Mike On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 11:59 AM, Scott Fybush sc...@fybush.com wrote: Mike Hawkins wrote: I used your reply as a reference here because it addresses two things. First is that FCC's website has so little information on it that is accessible outside the FCC that its rather useless. Tracking applications always results in major change, minor change, STA or license. I have not been able to view an authorization for many moons. There is little if any correspondence, and legal action is rare. Two things here: First, the FCC will soon be abandoning the CDBS database in favor of a new, more versatile database system that's being billed as having more direct public access. So much of what I'm about to explain will soon be obsolete. That said: there's actually lots of information accessible there. You just have to know where to look. Here are a few basic tips; I'm happy to go into greater detail either on- or off-list if there's interest. I find the quickest way into CDBS is through FCCInfo.com. It's a privately-operated site, and it's free. The basic searches are right at the top of the front page: search by callsign, COL, distance from a given community or set of coordinates, FCC facility ID number, etc. KTRB offers a good example. Plug those calls into the callsign search box, be sure you've checked the AM radio button to the left, and be sure you've checked the Include Archive Records box beneath the callsign. What comes up is this (watch for word wrap): http://fccinfo.com/CMDProFacLookup.php?sCurrentService=AMcalls=ktrbArchiveRecords=YtabSearchType=Call+Sign+Search There's a lot of chaff here, but also a lot of good information. Ignore all the 0 kW power entries for now - they represent FCC records with no engineering data attached. Ignore anything with a blank space or App in the Status column on the left. What matters to us are actual license records and construction permit records...and here's what turns up: there's a set of license records for the old Modesto facility, with 50 kW days and 10 kW nights. We know that's no longer active, because it shows up as an archived record. Then we see another set of licenses for the former 50/50 San Francisco-licensed facility. Those show up as archive records, too...but we can get at the engineering data for those, or for the Modesto facility, by clicking on the callsign for each entry. Then we have the current license. Unless the database records are screwy (and occasionally they are), there should only be one active set of license records for any given station. Click on those and we learn more about the current KTRB 50/50 facility - location (with a link to a Google map), tower layout, directional pattern and more. This page also gives us a link called Other KTRB Applications, which returns us to the FCC's own website, to the Application Search Page that can also be accessed directly from the FCC's AM Query: http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_list.pl?Facility_id=66246 This page links us to all the applications that are in CDBS; generally, that will include at least some information about anything filed after 1978, though detailed electronic applications only exist from the last decade or so. If the application was filed electronically (look for the E in the Paper/Elect column), you can see it by clicking the application list. Which brings us to the complex system of prefixes the FCC uses for apps. The ones that matter to us as DXers are BL-, which indicates an AM station's application for a license, BP-, an application for a construction permit, BMP-, an app to modify an existing construction permit, BMJP-, an application for a major modification (change COL, change frequency more than 30 kHz) and BSTA/BLSTA-, an application for special temporary authority. What you get when you click on the application link is the application itself, which often includes a full engineering narrative that explains in detail what the application intends to do. A good example is in the KTRB app to move from Modesto to San Francisco, which appears on the application list as BMJP-20020910AAB. The first part of the application consists of a bunch of form entries that are filled out by the applicant, but the meat is in the attachments. Keep
[IRCA] WWV Solar Report
:Product: Geophysical Alert Message wwv.txt :Issued: 2011 Jan 18 2105 UTC # Prepared by the US Dept. of Commerce, NOAA, Space Weather Prediction Center # # Geophysical Alert Message # Solar-terrestrial indices for 18 January follow. Solar flux 81 and estimated mid-latitude A-Index 4. The mid-latitude K-index at 2100 UTC on 18 January was 2 (12 nT). No space weather storms were observed for the past 24 hours. No space weather storms are expected for the next 24 hours. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Trends -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Date 17 17 17 17 17 17 18 18 18 18 18 18 18 18 UTC 0600 0900 1200 1500 1800 2100 0300 0600 0900 1200 1500 1800 2100 SFlx 80 80 80 80 80 82 82 82 82 82 82 82 82 81 A-in 44444555555554 K-in 21122122121012 ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Re: [IRCA] Opinions requested on documenting station swaps
Since you've raised a new question, I'll respond. I don't count power/pattern changes. Mostly this is so because there's no easy way to identify them all, and good way to design criteria to be reasonable. If a semi-local goes from semi-regular to pest status, so what ? If a local changes and I can't even tell the difference, why should I count it twice ? And so on. To me that's just way too much work. Russ Edmunds 15 mi NNW of Philadelphia Grid FN20id wb2...@yahoo.com FM: Yamaha T-80 Onkyo T-450RDS w/ APS9B @15'; Grundig G8 AM: Modified Sony ICF 2010's barefoot --- On Tue, 1/18/11, sa...@sounddsl.com sa...@sounddsl.com wrote: From: sa...@sounddsl.com sa...@sounddsl.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] Opinions requested on documenting station swaps To: irca@hard-core-dx.com Date: Tuesday, January 18, 2011, 10:17 AM My approach is, I guess, to log the actual stick in the ground (the tower/antenna) on a given frequency. If the same antenna switches frequency, then for me it would be a new station. However, I treat call sign changes about the same way I would treat format changes, and note them as sorta cosmetic changes on the same station. The one thing I am on the fence about is where the station gets approval for a pattern and/or power change. For example, KRKO-1380 up here recently went to a jillion watts compared to what they were putting out before, and have a new tower, transmitter and IBOC exciter (sigh...). Logging them now is a lot easier than it was. For someone in Montana, they went from being a tough catch to perhaps a pest. It's as if there is a completely different station there from a DXing point of view, yet they have the same physical location and frequency. What to do? Kevin S Bainbridge Island, WA --- Original Message --- From : Russ Edmunds[mailto:wb2...@yahoo.com] Sent : 1/18/2011 5:01:57 AM To : irca@hard-core-dx.com Cc : Subject : RE: Re: [IRCA] Opinions requested on documenting station swaps To me these are call changes. I note them in my logs, ( and would do so again should they change again down the road ) but I don't count them in my totals. I know that others do things differently, but many do it this way also. At one time, I counted call changes, however I realized that as the different calls had no effect on my ability to hear the station or not, and the facilities were the same, that counting them no longer made sense, so I re-did my logs at the time to that effect. Russ Edmunds 15 mi NNW of Philadelphia Grid FN20id wb2...@yahoo.com FM: Yamaha T-80 Onkyo T-450RDS w/ APS9B @15'; Grundig G8 AM: Modified Sony ICF 2010's barefoot --- On Tue, 1/18/11, Mike Hawkins michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com wrote: From: Mike Hawkins michael.d.hawk...@gmail.com Subject: [IRCA] Opinions requested on documenting station swaps To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America irca@hard-core-dx.com Date: Tuesday, January 18, 2011, 3:13 AM I'm playing with radio station history again and I'm doing battle with myself about how to document station swaps. I'll give two examples. Example #1: A few years back, KLOC/920/Ceres CA format moved to KVIN/1390/Turlock CA, and the KVIN format moved over to KLOC. The call letters swapped with the format change. From a listener's perspective, that is a frequency change and the city change is transparent to the listener. From the FCC perspective, its two call letter changes for two separate facilities and who cares about the formats. Example #2: Recently, KERN/1410/Bakersfield CA swapped formats and call letters with KERI/1180/Wasco CA. As with example #1, the listener finds their favorite station on a new frequency, and the city change is transparent. The FCC sees it as two call letter changes for two facilities. I'm on the fence and looking for opinions on how this should be properly documented. ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com ___ IRCA mailing
[IRCA] Leo Meyerson, W0GFQ, turns 100
This is from another list, but I know there are a number of, ahem, we radio veterans here. If you are not a ham, I'm sure a local post card would be equally appreciated. Bob Coomler Tucson, AZ Hi Everybody, On Feb 24th QCWA Chapter 154 in West Palm Springs is celebrating Leo's 100th birthday. For those that don't remember Leo owned and operated World Radio Laboratories in Council Bluffs, Iowa for many years. So here's the plan, take a QSL card, write 'Happy 100th Birthday Leo' on it and send it to: Leo Meyerson, W0GFQ 19 Park Lane Rancho Mirage, CA 92270 Gene Pentecost, President of Chapter 154 will make sure they get to the party so everyone that attends can enjoy them. One last thing, tell every ham you know to do the same thing, QCWA member or not. Spread the word, at every radio club meeting you attend, at every net you check into. I want Leo to get hundreds, maybe even thousands of cards. tnx es 73, Bob Roske, NØUF QCWA President __ ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
[IRCA] WWV Solar Report
:Product: Geophysical Alert Message wwv.txt :Issued: 2011 Jan 19 0005 UTC # Prepared by the US Dept. of Commerce, NOAA, Space Weather Prediction Center # # Geophysical Alert Message # Solar-terrestrial indices for 18 January follow. Solar flux 81 and mid-latitude A-index 4. The mid-latitude K-index at UTC on 19 January was 2 (10 nT). No space weather storms were observed for the past 24 hours. No space weather storms are expected for the next 24 hours. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Trends -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Date 17 17 17 17 17 18 18 18 18 18 18 18 18 19 UTC 0900 1200 1500 1800 2100 0300 0600 0900 1200 1500 1800 2100 SFlx 80 80 80 80 82 82 82 82 82 82 82 82 81 81 A-in 44445555555544 K-in 11221221210122 ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
