Re: [jdev] a vision
On 3/13/09 4:21 AM, Pedro Melo wrote: On Mar 12, 2009, at 5:48 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: On 3/12/09 11:24 AM, Pedro Melo wrote: On Mar 11, 2009, at 8:05 PM, Justin Karneges wrote: The big question of all is whether it is the job of jabber.org to compete with Skype. Aren't there others in this space already trying to do that? If jabber.org is truly competitive, and no longer a self-defeating reference service, is it still fair to use the Jabber name? Peter, you may remember, one of the options we discussed was to actually get rid of jabber.org entirely. ;-) I don't think its the role of jabber.org to compete direcly with Skype. But there are certain services that would make the network better (like a network of sock5 proxys, and all the NAT-busting stuff) that require some form of central coordination, and that fits perfectly for jabber.org. As for the IM service, I would keep it running and continue to accept new users as the backup route for new jabber users: if they are not introduced to a more local jabber service then you can always have Jabber.org. Look, if we don't do it nobody will. Much as I like the folks who work on services like Google Talk and Nimbuzz and SAPO (etc.), they need to justify their services to people at their companies. That means they try to funnel users to their domains. It's not in their interest to run an open infrastructure for IM / file transfer / voice / video. Whether we call it Jabber or FreeTalk or something else doesn't matter. (I rather like FreeTalk, myself.) The point is that we have the chance to federate with all those other services but also offer something more open. I missed something. I think we are agreeing, right? I do agree that the IM service should continue. Yes, we are in violent agreement. Your message was the one I found most quickly to reply to Justin. :) Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 2:57 AM, Peter Saint-Andre stpe...@stpeter.im wrote: 3. Do we try to deploy the kinds of services that are needed in order for people to have a better experience? As far as I can see, those services are SOCKS5 and TURN relays for file transfer and voice/video. But we can't deploy just one of those (it would be overloaded) so we need to deploy them more widely -- perhaps just Europe and North America to start, but eventually in many locations so that people can use local relays everywhere. If we're going to do #3, then we'll have something that starts to look like a free and open alternative to Skype. Perhaps it would not be marketed as such, but it would be something like that in reality. + abuse reporting and spam blocking. this is a thing that initially can be handled only in centralized way (it's the olny way to make it happen, then there is time for finding better solutions) -- Fabio Forno, Ph.D. Bluendo srl http://www.bluendo.com jabber id: f...@jabber.bluendo.com ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
Am 11.03.2009 um 19:43 schrieb Dirk Meyer: Right. It is all about marketing. It would help (not for my sister) if we easy MSN/AIM/ICQ integration (gateway) in the servers and an EASY way to provide the credentials. That makes switching painless for everything except Skype (You can still talk to your friends). Heh, that's what I've been suggesting for years. Take a look at the Skype website: it is presented in German for me (I giess based on the IP address), a big photo (makes no sense, but it looks like web 2.0), and a button download. I guess that is what we need. The download would be a problem: Yup, that's the way to go - and how many clients websites are actually designed. 1. Do not let the user choose between x clients. Jabber.org should have one default client for Windows/MAC users (Linux users are grown up, they already know how to choose stuff). That's quite a problem. It would be unfair to make one client the official client. It would get more attention than all other clients, thus more deveopers etc. It would hurt the other clients. But there _IS_ one solution: Do it like GTalk. Promote your client, not XMPP. You can say it's compatible with Jabber, that's enough. Or tell something like Supports the Jabber Network. But the people will be refering to it with the client name. Actually, I could convince quite a few non-geeks to try Gajim - nobody of them spoke about Jabber, they always talked about Gajim. Like See you in Gajim this afternoon!. 2. The client must have Jingle support incl. Video I _TOTALLY_ agree! This was one of the most requested features when I conviced some non-geeks to try Gajim! 3. Userfriendly setup. E.g. a wizzard asking me if I already have an account or if one should be created. It has to include a list of XMPP servers for the user to choose. The list should be short. The Gajim wizward was - besides being asked for a server - fine. I just told them before they installed it that when they were asked for a server, they should just type webkeks.org there. That worked for them. But of course, this only works when some geek recommends it to non-geeks. Solution here that eliminates the problem, but not choice? Have a dropdown list like Gajim has in that you can also type, but have jabber.org or your client's server (e.g. gajim.org) inserted there by default. Why I know this won't confuse users? It's the same like if you register an e-mail adress at a provider which has multiple domains. Of course, if you have a form like this, it _WILL_ be confusing: Username: [] Server: [ ][v] Password: [] ([ ] is a text entry, [v] is the button of a combobox) But if you do it like this, the user won't be confused: ID: [ ]...@[ ][v] Password: [ ] (The @ here is a label which is shown between the two text entrys). (@Asterix, would you mind if we change it like this in Gajim?) 4. The client must be able to auto-update itself. Users do not check for new versions, the software has to do that. Definitely! They always had old versions of Gajim and when I told them to get the new one, they often had 2 installations on their machine and it was random which they used. Don't forgot to offer adding the client to the autostart on installation like we do in Gajim ;). -- Jonathan PGP.sig Description: Signierter Teil der Nachricht ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
Am 12.03.2009 um 16:13 schrieb Peter Saint-Andre: Heh, that's what I've been suggesting for years. It's easy for those who don't run the services to make suggestions. Gateways are a royal pain in the ass, which is why we haven't run them at jabber.org since 2000 or 2001. I know that and I wouldn't deploy that on jabber.org either. Plus, it might look strange if the jabber.org server offers such services. But what would be possible is to have a list of public gateways and use one of these ;). That's quite a problem. It would be unfair to make one client the official client. It would get more attention than all other clients, thus more deveopers etc. It would hurt the other clients. No matter what happens, someone's feelings will be hurt. We can't list every client under the sun -- it's too confusing. Of course, but having one client which we call the official client will be contraproductive for every other client. I have no time to reply to the rest. Sad, as the beginning to which you replied was the rather boring stuff, while it got more interesting at the end ;). -- Jonathan PGP.sig Description: Signierter Teil der Nachricht ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
On Thu Mar 12 16:09:41 2009, Jonathan Schleifer wrote: No matter what happens, someone's feelings will be hurt. We can't list every client under the sun -- it's too confusing. Of course, but having one client which we call the official client will be contraproductive for every other client. This is no different to jabber.org picking a single server, though. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:d...@cridland.net - xmpp:d...@dave.cridland.net - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
On 3/12/09 10:35 AM, Jonathan Schleifer wrote: jabber.org is just a server. It's run by the XSF. The jabber.org server is not run by the XSF, it is run by a team of volunteers from the community. However, it hosted on machines owned by the XSF. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
On Thu Mar 12 16:35:56 2009, Jonathan Schleifer wrote: It's not. An open source client can be developed by everybody. Everybody can participate, write patches, etc. If it's the official client, everybody will focus on that. Well, I'm certainly not denying that any officially selected client would have a massive advantage, but I think all clients would benefit from attempting to be the chosen one, and as long as we were careful about reselecting the client on a regular basis for each platform, I think that wouldn't end with one client being selected. jabber.org is just a server. It's run by the XSF. Not everybody can administrate it and thus abandon other servers. Sure, one could develop for ejabberd and hope jabber.org will be updated to the latest rev. But it's still different, as ejabberd isn't the official server software. Ah, but ejabberd certainly derives a massive advantage by running the jabber.org service. You can't quite describe it as the official server, but you could quite easily describe it as the server chosen to run the flagship Jabber service sponsored by the XSF, or in any other number of quite accurate, and highly flattering, terms. PS: Please don't CC me, I'm on the list - I have to be on the list, otherwise I can't write. Yes, but my client ignores mailing list managers which (erroneously) fiddle with the Reply-To header, so unless I remember (or change the default reply type for the list), it decides to reply to the sender, and copy the list. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:d...@cridland.net - xmpp:d...@dave.cridland.net - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
Hi, On Mar 11, 2009, at 8:05 PM, Justin Karneges wrote: On Tuesday 10 March 2009 16:24:50 Peter Saint-Andre wrote: None of this would be exclusive. We'd still strongly encourage people to run their own XMPP services and join the network. But we'd also work hard to have worldwide coverage under the jabber.org banner. This proposal reminds me of our discussion in Portland last year with Christopher Zorn, about the future of Psi. I was all tied up in a knot because I felt that to truly target average users, Psi would have to be bound with a service, but that doing so would taint Psi's image and go against the point of Jabber. huhs? Why would it go against the point of Jabber? wouldn't the Psi server be federated with all the others? would the Psi server only accept Psi clients? I'm not saying that you should run a server, its a lot of work, but I don't think that it is against the spirit of jabber. You see, I have this idea that there's generic Jabber services and clients and then there's integrated services like Google Talk and SAPO, but only the generic offerings count as being part of the Jabber ideal. Well, apart from working at SAPO in the past :), I really do not agree. As long as open federation is there, and you can use any client with the service, I don't see what offense is there to the jabber ideal. Sure (and here I'm talking about some parts at SAPO) we could have used more standards in the clients, but in my defense (and other before me), they weren't there at the time, and we where both young and stupid. Christopher basically said this view is too limiting. Is Chesspark not part of the Jabber ideal then? His point was that in the end it's all about offering great software and services, and holding on to this generic client idea is self-defeating. Normal people don't want generic building blocks. Exactly. I'm not a crusader against MSN/AIM/ICQ/Skype. I'm ok that they exist. The only thing I really want from them is open federation. Maybe my view is too limiting, but people who use MSN clients and Skype clients really like them. They would be kick-ass Jabber clients for a lot of people out there, with all the bells and whistles that I loath. So yes, if you do want to go against those guys, then you should be selling the client, a very cool, feature-full, integrated with cool web-N.0 tools and what not. But I don't expect that to be the end-result of Jabber.org. I would be very happy for jabber.org to provide a simple IM service, with a simple Web Interface, with functional file transfer it at all possible. Speaking of first they visit the Psi website, Christopher argued that users will start at the client, mainly because it is the face of the service. They will see the software running on a friend's computer, or they'll see a screenshot or such, and think Hey, that's pretty cool, I want that. The approach of going to jabber.org and having to pick a client is backwards. Sure, but still Jabber.org is the top hit in google for Jabber. I don't think we should underestimate that. The big question of all is whether it is the job of jabber.org to compete with Skype. Aren't there others in this space already trying to do that? If jabber.org is truly competitive, and no longer a self-defeating reference service, is it still fair to use the Jabber name? Peter, you may remember, one of the options we discussed was to actually get rid of jabber.org entirely. ;-) I don't think its the role of jabber.org to compete direcly with Jabber. But there are certain services that would make the network better (like a network of sock5 proxys, and all the NAT-busting stuff) that require some form of central coordination, and that fits perfectly for jabber.org. As for the IM service, I would keep it running and continue to accept new users as the backup route for new jabber users: if they are not introduced to a more local jabber service then you can always have Jabber.org. Best regards, -- Pedro Melo Blog: http://www.simplicidade.org/notes/ XMPP ID: m...@simplicidade.org Use XMPP! ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
On Thursday 12 March 2009 10:24:21 Pedro Melo wrote: As for the IM service, I would keep it running and continue to accept new users as the backup route for new jabber users: if they are not introduced to a more local jabber service then you can always have Jabber.org. A friend once said to me: I hate Jabber, it's always down! True, jabber.org had gone down for several minutes while he was in the middle of chatting, on multiple occasions. He can be rightfully angry about that, but I had to explain to him that it was jabber.org, not Jabber which was at fault. From then on I always recommended Google Talk to new users. It doesn't really matter if Google has better uptime. The point is to get the blame right. -Justin ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
On 3/12/09 11:24 AM, Pedro Melo wrote: On Mar 11, 2009, at 8:05 PM, Justin Karneges wrote: The big question of all is whether it is the job of jabber.org to compete with Skype. Aren't there others in this space already trying to do that? If jabber.org is truly competitive, and no longer a self-defeating reference service, is it still fair to use the Jabber name? Peter, you may remember, one of the options we discussed was to actually get rid of jabber.org entirely. ;-) I don't think its the role of jabber.org to compete direcly with Skype. But there are certain services that would make the network better (like a network of sock5 proxys, and all the NAT-busting stuff) that require some form of central coordination, and that fits perfectly for jabber.org. As for the IM service, I would keep it running and continue to accept new users as the backup route for new jabber users: if they are not introduced to a more local jabber service then you can always have Jabber.org. Look, if we don't do it nobody will. Much as I like the folks who work on services like Google Talk and Nimbuzz and SAPO (etc.), they need to justify their services to people at their companies. That means they try to funnel users to their domains. It's not in their interest to run an open infrastructure for IM / file transfer / voice / video. Whether we call it Jabber or FreeTalk or something else doesn't matter. (I rather like FreeTalk, myself.) The point is that we have the chance to federate with all those other services but also offer something more open. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
Am 12.03.2009 um 17:50 schrieb Dave Cridland: Well, I'm certainly not denying that any officially selected client would have a massive advantage, but I think all clients would benefit from attempting to be the chosen one, and as long as we were careful about reselecting the client on a regular basis for each platform, I think that wouldn't end with one client being selected. That's not possible: We'd need to call that client just Jabber, so the user is not confused. If the user downloads Jabber but then gets for example Psi, the user will be very confused. But if we call a client Jabber, we can't just make another client the official one. The user will be very confused then, because now he got another application. Now as we can't have clients competing about being the official Jabber client (for the beforementioned reasons), it would hurt all other clients. Ah, but ejabberd certainly derives a massive advantage by running the jabber.org service. You can't quite describe it as the official server, but you could quite easily describe it as the server chosen to run the flagship Jabber service sponsored by the XSF, or in any other number of quite accurate, and highly flattering, terms. Yes, and this has been criticized before as well :). It sure is an advantage for ejabberd, but not as much as an official client would be. Yes, but my client ignores mailing list managers which (erroneously) fiddle with the Reply-To header, so unless I remember (or change the default reply type for the list), it decides to reply to the sender, and copy the list. Mine does something similar on many MLs: It sometimes doesn't include the ML at all… -- Jonathan PGP.sig Description: Signierter Teil der Nachricht ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 12:24 AM, Peter Saint-Andre stpe...@stpeter.im wrote: As posted at my blog [...] I agree with most of the points, except: 3. Internationalized versions of everything so that volunteers around the world can run sites like de.jabber.org (Germany) and pt.jabber.org (Portugal). We already have strong local communities worldwide that do an amazing job : http://www.jabber.org.au/ http://www.jabberes.org/ http://www.jabberfr.org/ http://www.jabber.no/ http://www.jabber.cz/ http://www.jabber.org.uk/ http://www.jabber.ru/ http://web.swissjabber.ch/ Again, watch closer the french example, the one I know the most, we got: * website: http://www.jabberfr.org/ * wiki: http://wiki.jabberfr.org/ * forum: http://forum.jabberfr.org/ * MUC server: xmpp:chat.jabberfr.org * web MUC: http://chat.jabberfr.org/ * blog: http://news.jabberfr.org/ * blog agregator: http://planet.jabberfr.org/ * directory: xmpp:users.jabberfr.org http://annuaire.jabberfr.org/ * randomchat: http://randomchat.jabberfr.org/ * notification bot: xmpp:jabbe...@im.apinc.org * cooperation between french services: http://wiki.jabberfr.org/Coop%C3%A9ration * web presence: xmpp:presence.jabberfr.org * proxy: proxy.jabberfr.org * transports... Plus small initiatives, plus what we do IRL... But that's not enough, we need more, like PubSub applications (like microblogging), real-time agregator (like Mimir), maybe games, collaboration tools, etc. In short, we demo every day, in real-time, a portion of the power of XMPP technologies. IMHO, I don't thing jabber.org should drive/lead/take over already existing local communities, a great deal of job is already done, and we don't need to dilute the effort. IMHO, I think jabber.org should first look at what's done worldwide (especially the spanish, czech, and russian powerful examples). You can use (should?) online translation tools so that you can browse the sites. However IMHO I think jabber.org should ignite/foster non yet existent local communities. But enough speaking, I've contributed this: http://www.jabber.org/web/Category:Feature Much like we've done on: http://wiki.jabberfr.org/Cat%C3%A9gorie:Fonctionnalit%C3%A9_Jabber This page lists all the Jabber/XMPP features, as people really don't know half of them, we have to publicise them. All the pages are just created as empty shells. I have used a category, and redirects. I'll create a model or category Draft or TODO, so that we can have a todo-list. Please review, and feel free to contribute an introductory text on each page/feature, it is a good basis. If a feature is missing, please create the page and put [[Category:Feature]] at the end of the page. If you create a synonymous page, put #REDIRECT [[Synonymous]] at the top of the page, and don't forget [[Category:Feature]] at the end of the page (well... two lines below). Nÿco -- Nicolas Vérité (Nÿco) mailto:nicolas.ver...@gmail.com Jabber ID : xmpp:n...@jabber.fr http://linuxfr.org/ - http://fr.wikipedia.org/ - http://www.jabberfr.org/ - http://qsos.org/ Adhérez à l'April : http://april.org/ ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
We already have strong local communities worldwide that do an amazing job : I still think there's more value in making jabber.org a uniform service across international boundaries, the way Peter described. Every local community doing its own thing is nice and fun, but it's confusing to newcomers as well. It also means that you have a Jabber ID that is bound to the particular service. I think that localized versions of the same site would have much more impact, less investment (localized sites don't need to run their own jabber service), and would be much more practical. cheers, Remko ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 1:00 PM, Remko Tronçon re...@el-tramo.be wrote: We already have strong local communities worldwide that do an amazing job : I still think there's more value in making jabber.org a uniform service across international boundaries, the way Peter described. But all the past initiatives have failed to bring contributions... The process of centralizing contributions in english at jabber.org, and then translate to many language.jabber.org subdomains... and update, and update, will be quite heavy, and the synchronization is quite undoable, we don't have a framework for that. If we do Wikipedia-like, which means no coordination or so between languages, then what's the added value to host the language on jabber.org? Every local community doing its own thing is nice and fun, but it's confusing to newcomers as well. True, but the contribution barrier is lower. What we can do is just mention the local community in the central jabber.org site, instead of re-doing its work. It also means that you have a Jabber ID that is bound to the particular service. Can you explain? I think that localized versions of the same site would have much more impact, less investment (localized sites don't need to run their own jabber service), and would be much more practical. True for the service hosting. Untrue for the practical aspect, only from a centralized point of view. Contributors to the central place would have to follow a heavy process through english and his language. Plus it would fork the local community. I maybe repeating, but IMHO we should just *first* gather contributors, *then* inquire what's done in local communities, bring the ideas to jabber.org and implement them the 'rough consensus' way, *and then* translate to languages IF the corresponding local community is not yet existent. Who can help? Who can read and review what follows? For example, if we just keep in the wiki perimeter, we (JabberFr) have: * Made a kickstart wiki-based wizzard named Jabber in ten minutes with [client], including animated GIFs screencasts and Next buttons, quite a heavy work, not be dropped, but updated http://wiki.jabberfr.org/Jabber_en_dix_minutes_avec_Spark http://wiki.jabberfr.org/Jabber_en_dix_minutes_avec_Gajim http://wiki.jabberfr.org/Jabber_en_dix_minutes_avec_Psi * drafted portals: user, dev, admin, enterprise (to be done, somewhere in time) http://wiki.jabberfr.org/Portail:Utilisateur http://wiki.jabberfr.org/Portail:D%C3%A9veloppeurur http://wiki.jabberfr.org/Portail:Administrateur http://wiki.jabberfr.org/Portail:Entreprise * inventoried and classified clients: almost exhaustively up-to-date http://wiki.jabberfr.org/Clients All we have to do here, is just copy-paste-translate the already existing framework, if you think these are good ideas. Anyone who wants two cents? ;-) Nÿco -- Nicolas Vérité (Nÿco) mailto:nicolas.ver...@gmail.com Jabber ID : xmpp:n...@jabber.fr http://linuxfr.org/ - http://fr.wikipedia.org/ - http://www.jabberfr.org/ - http://qsos.org/ Adhérez à l'April : http://april.org/ ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
True, but the contribution barrier is lower. If that is true, then we just have to make the contribution barrier lower. I don't expect the jabber.org site to be as dynamic as Wikipedia, so I don't expect maintenance effort. And the maintenance effort that is there should be made as easy as possible. Can you explain? If you register with the jabberfr.org service, you get a Jabber ID 'm...@jabberfr.org'. This isn't necessarily a bad thing in itself. There's just problems that you need to migrate accounts when it turns out that the jabberfr.org isn't very well run. There's also the problem that the user has to pick a server in a list of 100 servers, a choice *nobody* (not even I) can make when joining the Jabber network. It could make some arbitrary choice based on the language, but it could run into bad luck that it's a server badly run, and the net result is a bad image for Jabber. All this can be avoided with one central 'jabber.org' service: you have a core team of people focusing on running an excellent XMPP service, and another team focusing on keeping the website up, and another team for the translations. Combined efforts give much better results. cheers, Remko ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
As posted at my blog *** I have this vision for jabber.org services: 1. A clean and simple website with minimal text that will help end users get started with Jabber. 2. Web chat for a real-time window into one end-user chatroom and one developer chatroom (and perhaps one additional room, such as a language-specific or country-specific room). 3. Internationalized versions of everything so that volunteers around the world can run sites like de.jabber.org (Germany) and pt.jabber.org (Portugal). 4. Extension of this international model to XMPP services, so that we can run SOCKS5 data proxies for file transfer and TURN media relays for voice+video all over the world (we'll need to convince companies and ISPs and non-profit organizations that this is in their interest, since they are the people with the bandwidth). For me the idea here is that jabber.org will be the community-driven running code laboratory for the formal rough consensus technologies produced by the XMPP Standards Foundation. The goal is to build an open and distributed IM, presence, data, and VoIP service that can provide a realistic alternative to closed systems like Skype. None of this would be exclusive. We'd still strongly encourage people to run their own XMPP services and join the network. But we'd also work hard to have worldwide coverage under the jabber.org banner. Call this Jabber 2.0 if you must. In any case, I think it's time for a strong community centered at jabber.org to provide technology leadership in the communication space and thus help us all achieve the original mission that Jeremie Miller set out long ago: freedom of conversation. Great but... who's the target? The client if you will? Because the pitch will be different if you're a CTO, a third-party service, a developer, some random user. I read your bullet points list and I wonder: who is he speaking to? Not to downplay your motivation Peter but how will you measure success or failure if you can't tell who you were targeting in the first place. XMPP and Jabber have been driven mostly by technologists and developers so far and we all know those usually suck at making things appetizing for the rest of the World. Once you know who is your market, you can go and find the best people in each arena and get them excited about Jabber, not as a technology, but as a mean, a vision like you say. - Sylvain -- Sylvain Hellegouarch http://www.defuze.org ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
Great but... who's the target? The client if you will? Because the pitch will be different if you're a CTO, a third-party service, a developer, some random user. You are targeting normal users. As Peter said, jabber.org will still explain the possibilities of running your own server, but this will interest only a very small part of the potential Jabber(.org) users. All the other users don't care about this choice (they don't on MSN, they don't on Skype, they don't on anything). The 'advanced' users will look further to see how they can set up their own server behind their corporation firewall, ... And developers are the target of xmpp.org. cheers, Remko ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
But all the past initiatives have failed to bring contributions... By the way, I think one of the most important parts of failure on jabber.org contributions is the fact that it was Wiki-driven. I agree that this is impossible to keep in sync, and I don't believe a Wiki-based approach can work. Peter talks about A clean and simple website with minimal text that will help end users get started with Jabber. That should be much easier to maintain and internationalize, without resorting to Wikis. cheers, Remko ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 1:53 PM, Remko Tronçon re...@el-tramo.be wrote: All this can be avoided with one central 'jabber.org' service: you have a core team of people focusing on running an excellent XMPP service, and another team focusing on keeping the website up, and another team for the translations. Combined efforts give much better results. Why not call it MSN or QQ? (just kidding..). Combiend efforts are already in place in local communities. On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Remko Tronçon re...@el-tramo.be wrote: But all the past initiatives have failed to bring contributions... By the way, I think one of the most important parts of failure on jabber.org contributions is the fact that it was Wiki-driven. Most of the reasons why it failed was because... we failed to gather contributions. Everything non-mediawiki has a high barrier of entry. I agree that this is impossible to keep in sync, and I don't believe a Wiki-based approach can work. Communties that have a wiki (that works): http://www.jabber.cz/ http://www.jabberfr.org/ Please, plse, take a look! ;-) Peter talks about A clean and simple website with minimal text that will help end users get started with Jabber. That should be much easier to maintain and internationalize, without resorting to Wikis. I disagree, having exeprienced it many times in many places, every potential contributor already knows and contributes at least a bit to Wikipedia (and its syntax), thus a Medawiki-based place is an excellent way to go. It works. Period. Unless you don't seed work and let it die. My seed is here: a small cleaning and features. Please help. Nÿco -- Nicolas Vérité (Nÿco) mailto:nicolas.ver...@gmail.com Jabber ID : xmpp:n...@jabber.fr http://linuxfr.org/ - http://fr.wikipedia.org/ - http://www.jabberfr.org/ - http://qsos.org/ Adhérez à l'April : http://april.org/ ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
Wikipedia (and its syntax), thus a Medawiki-based place is an excellent way to go. Wikipedia is the only wiki that works AFAIK, and that is because it has a huge amount of review. All other Wikis I have seen and used so far have failed, and caused more confusion and misinformation than actually give good information. When I surf to jabber.org, I want to see a professional looking page with 2 things: - A 3-line explanation of what jabber is - A button with Join now, which creates me an account on the Jabber network by only asking me questions that I know the answer to (Name, Email, Preferred login name) What I do see is: - A website that looks like a perpetual work in progress. Pretty scary, doesn't really sound like a good IM service to me. - About 50 links, many of which are uninteresting (the sidebar, because it's a wiki) - Create account links that don't create a Jabber account - Links to events that have passed, but nobody dares to touch the front page, because nobody owns that page - Links to things like 'discussion' that give me an error - A quickstart guide that tells me to pick a server (a what? why?) - A box saying that there have been GMail issues. When was that? This morning? Last week? It seems this Jabber thing has lots of issues with GMail, because it's been there for quite a while. (Why is it there? Exactly, nobody dares to touch it) Want me to go on? :) Anyway, I'm not going to rant about Wikis anymore, this isn't helping. I do believe that Peter's suggestion is a good one: one simple page to get people hooked up with Jabber fast, that we can refer people to if they want to chat on Jabber. One translator per language would be nice to have the site translated, with a good system in place that notifies of changes (which shouldn't happen often) to this page. cheers, Remko ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Remko Tronçon re...@el-tramo.be wrote: When I surf to jabber.org, I want to see a professional looking page with 2 things: - A 3-line explanation of what jabber is Where is the text of the Drupal-based former website? - A button with Join now, which creates me an account on the Jabber network by only asking me questions that I know the answer to (Name, Email, Preferred login name) You got now the Join now!, but still no form ;-) What I do see is: - A website that looks like a perpetual work in progress. Pretty scary, doesn't really sound like a good IM service to me. - About 50 links, many of which are uninteresting (the sidebar, because it's a wiki) I've minimized the size of this sidebar (can be reverted). - Create account links that don't create a Jabber account True, still no form, it's page full of text. Who has got such a piece of script/software? - Links to events that have passed, but nobody dares to touch the front page, because nobody owns that page Done. - Links to things like 'discussion' that give me an error This does'nt to me although I understand some people might think so watching a big input field. - A quickstart guide that tells me to pick a server (a what? why?) We can drive the user to jabber.org IM service', but shouldn't we be software/service-agnostic? - A box saying that there have been GMail issues. When was that? This morning? Last week? It seems this Jabber thing has lots of issues with GMail, because it's been there for quite a while. (Why is it there? Exactly, nobody dares to touch it) Done. Want me to go on? :) Yes, please! ;-) Anyway, I'm not going to rant about Wikis anymore, this isn't helping. I do believe that Peter's suggestion is a good one: one simple page to get people hooked up with Jabber fast, that we can refer people to if they want to chat on Jabber. One translator per language would be nice to have the site translated, with a good system in place that notifies of changes (which shouldn't happen often) to this page. cheers, Remko If it's an overworked-two-persons, closed-loop work, the don't rant about the lack of contributions. No? ;-) If not, then let the contributions come in by seeding/starting/igniting, like we both do today here. Nÿco -- Nicolas Vérité (Nÿco) mailto:nicolas.ver...@gmail.com Jabber ID : xmpp:n...@jabber.fr http://linuxfr.org/ - http://fr.wikipedia.org/ - http://www.jabberfr.org/ - http://qsos.org/ Adhérez à l'April : http://april.org/ ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
Hi, On Mar 11, 2009, at 2:25 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: 1. Strong user/admin/developer communities throughout the world so that we have a strong base of volunteers to help out. This I get. 2. One or more easy-to-deploy IM + media relay (+web?) server packages so that volunteers around the world can quickly deploy services in their localities. why IM? media, socks, I get, but a IM server? Isn't the idea that we would suggest creating the account at @jabber.org? Or would @pt.jabber.org IM accounts exist also? 3. Easy-to-use clients that support the full range of features we'll be deploying (perhaps different profiles such as IM and IM+media). Agreed, although I don't think that the volunteers could do much here except translate the how-to's for each client. 4. Good integration between the IM, media, and website services so that we have easy web-based user registration, straightforward discovery of media relays, web interfaces to chatrooms, etc. I'm still a bit confused with this one. If we have the IM server @ jabber.org, isn't all this common? Or something for client developers to consider? 5. A compelling story that will encourage companies and non-profit organizations to deploy services. Yep. 6. Simple templates for internationalized / localized websites, clients, etc. Yep. 7. Effective management of the DNS aspects because if all does well we will have a lot of subdomains to manage. Yep. 8. Perhaps centralized registration at jabber.org, which you can then use to connect to any local xmpp service (pt.jabber.org or whatever). Yeah, confused again. 9. Collaboration with other global-but-localized services such as Fon. Can't see that far right now. 10. Keep everything as local as possible. Keep local what should be local, I think. Relays, for example. Best regards, -- Pedro Melo Blog: http://www.simplicidade.org/notes/ XMPP ID: m...@simplicidade.org Use XMPP! ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
Wikipedia (and its syntax), thus a Medawiki-based place is an excellent way to go. Wikipedia is the only wiki that works AFAIK, and that is because it has a huge amount of review. All other Wikis I have seen and used so far have failed, and caused more confusion and misinformation than actually give good information. When I surf to jabber.org, I want to see a professional looking page with 2 things: - A 3-line explanation of what jabber is - A button with Join now, which creates me an account on the Jabber network by only asking me questions that I know the answer to (Name, Email, Preferred login name) What I do see is: - A website that looks like a perpetual work in progress. Pretty scary, doesn't really sound like a good IM service to me. - About 50 links, many of which are uninteresting (the sidebar, because it's a wiki) - Create account links that don't create a Jabber account - Links to events that have passed, but nobody dares to touch the front page, because nobody owns that page - Links to things like 'discussion' that give me an error - A quickstart guide that tells me to pick a server (a what? why?) - A box saying that there have been GMail issues. When was that? This morning? Last week? It seems this Jabber thing has lots of issues with GMail, because it's been there for quite a while. (Why is it there? Exactly, nobody dares to touch it) Want me to go on? :) Anyway, I'm not going to rant about Wikis anymore, this isn't helping. I do believe that Peter's suggestion is a good one: one simple page to get people hooked up with Jabber fast, that we can refer people to if they want to chat on Jabber. One translator per language would be nice to have the site translated, with a good system in place that notifies of changes (which shouldn't happen often) to this page. +1 now that I know who's the target. On a more personal note, I can only agree with you. I seldom see Wikis that actually work and to be honest Wikis layout and usability are rather cumbersome but I digress :) - Sylvain -- Sylvain Hellegouarch http://www.defuze.org ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
On 3/11/09 8:24 AM, Pedro Melo wrote: 2. One or more easy-to-deploy IM + media relay (+web?) server packages so that volunteers around the world can quickly deploy services in their localities. why IM? media, socks, I get, but a IM server? Isn't the idea that we would suggest creating the account at @jabber.org? By IM I really meant xmpp -- that is, there would be an xmpp service running at pt.jabber.org but it *might* only give you in-band access to the SOCKS5 proxy, the media relay, and other services. Or would @pt.jabber.org IM accounts exist also? I'm not sure yet -- we're exploring this idea together. :) On the one hand I think it would be great to scale up the jabber.org service by giving everyone jabber.org IDs. You might connect to the physical machine for pt.jabber.org if you're in Portugal, but your ID would be u...@jabber.org. On the other hand people have local pride so they might *want* an ID like u...@pt.jabber.org (but what if they move from Portugal to Finland or whatever?). 3. Easy-to-use clients that support the full range of features we'll be deploying (perhaps different profiles such as IM and IM+media). Agreed, although I don't think that the volunteers could do much here except translate the how-to's for each client. True. But even localized versions of client interfaces and HOWTOs are a good thing. 4. Good integration between the IM, media, and website services so that we have easy web-based user registration, straightforward discovery of media relays, web interfaces to chatrooms, etc. I'm still a bit confused with this one. If we have the IM server @ jabber.org, isn't all this common? Or something for client developers to consider? I think we all agree on the need for web-based registration. Web-based chatrooms are also great because they enable you to participate and learn (e.g., join h...@muc.pt.jabber.org and get assistance in your native language) without downloding a client. By IM (xmpp) and media integration I meant better discovery of your local SOCKS5 and TURN relays (in part via XEP-0215), and perhaps other services like localized chatrooms. 8. Perhaps centralized registration at jabber.org, which you can then use to connect to any local xmpp service (pt.jabber.org or whatever). Yeah, confused again. Your credentials might be registered at jabber.org (we would not redirect you to pt.jabber.org to register an account) and then you could use those credentials to log in to the physical machine at pt.jabber.org (discovered via SRV or Geo-IP). I'm not sure yet. 9. Collaboration with other global-but-localized services such as Fon. Can't see that far right now. Why not relays right on the local FON access point? 10. Keep everything as local as possible. Keep local what should be local, I think. Relays, for example. Yes, perhaps that is the way. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
Or would @pt.jabber.org IM accounts exist also? I'm not sure yet -- we're exploring this idea together. :) I wouldn't offer pt.jabber.org for IM accounts, exactly for the reasons you mentioned (you would have to migrate if you move somewhere etc.). Maybe I lack national pride, but I wouldn't want a be.jabber.org account, just plain, short, and simple jabber.org :-) cheers, Remko ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
On 3/11/09 9:54 AM, Remko Tronçon wrote: Or would @pt.jabber.org IM accounts exist also? I'm not sure yet -- we're exploring this idea together. :) I wouldn't offer pt.jabber.org for IM accounts, exactly for the reasons you mentioned (you would have to migrate if you move somewhere etc.). Maybe I lack national pride, but I wouldn't want a be.jabber.org account, just plain, short, and simple jabber.org :-) Is Belgium even a nation anymore? ;-) Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
Hi, On Mar 11, 2009, at 3:54 PM, Remko Tronçon wrote: Or would @pt.jabber.org IM accounts exist also? I'm not sure yet -- we're exploring this idea together. :) I wouldn't offer pt.jabber.org for IM accounts, exactly for the reasons you mentioned (you would have to migrate if you move somewhere etc.). Maybe I lack national pride, but I wouldn't want a be.jabber.org account, just plain, short, and simple jabber.org :-) Yeah... I can see right now being able to support pt.jabber.org services (socks, turn, translation, etc), but running a full IM service, not so much. But I also understand that other, who already have a bigger community, might want that to. Best regards, -- Pedro Melo Blog: http://www.simplicidade.org/notes/ XMPP ID: m...@simplicidade.org Use XMPP! ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
I think we all agree on the need for web-based registration. Web-based chatrooms are also great because they enable you to participate and learn (e.g., join h...@muc.pt.jabber.org and get assistance in your native language) But why? Why would someone go to jabber.org in the first place? Before you even need help to move forward you need a reason to get there in the first place. MSN didn't win over because it was better (I mean we all know how dreadful it is at every level) but people had a reason to use it because their relatives, loved ones, friends were using it. Regular people don't care about making jabber.org a better place. They want to communicate but they need a good reason to do so through it. without downloding a client. Considering the term client means nothing for most common users it's a good idea to avoid such term altogether. People use MSN or Skype... they have no idea they use the MSN client application that connects to the MSN servere. Jabber.org should probably have a webchat but I believe it should also consider having its own client named just that Jabber (or whatever foxy name that could trademark it). Even if it's just one of the existing OSS one with a nice looking skin. Even if you talk about browsers, people don't use a browser client, quite often they don't even use Firefox, IE or Opera... they use the Internet. client is a dev. term that has no concrete meaning for regular end user IMO. Well perhaps we should experiment by asking our relatives. If I ask my parents about client, they'll probably stare at me even though they use many on a daily basis. - Sylvain -- Sylvain Hellegouarch http://www.defuze.org ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
On 3/11/09 10:00 AM, Pedro Melo wrote: Hi, On Mar 11, 2009, at 3:54 PM, Remko Tronçon wrote: Or would @pt.jabber.org IM accounts exist also? I'm not sure yet -- we're exploring this idea together. :) I wouldn't offer pt.jabber.org for IM accounts, exactly for the reasons you mentioned (you would have to migrate if you move somewhere etc.). Maybe I lack national pride, but I wouldn't want a be.jabber.org account, just plain, short, and simple jabber.org :-) Yeah... I can see right now being able to support pt.jabber.org services (socks, turn, translation, etc), but running a full IM service, not so much. Yes, it's a lot of work to support a full IM service. :) But if we make jabber.org too popular then we need to put more time into it. We'll need clustering at the least, because running everything on one machine in Iowa would not be enough. But I also understand that other, who already have a bigger community, might want that to. Perhaps it's enough for now to figure out worldwide clustering of the jabber.org address space and deployment of minimal xmpp services (not hosting IM accounts) for bootstrapping of SOCKS5 and TURN relays. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
On Mar 11, 2009, at 4:08 PM, Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote: I think we all agree on the need for web-based registration. Web-based chatrooms are also great because they enable you to participate and learn (e.g., join h...@muc.pt.jabber.org and get assistance in your native language) But why? Why would someone go to jabber.org in the first place? http://www.google.com/search?q=jabber If someone hears about Jabber, thats the query they will use to know more, right? Before you even need help to move forward you need a reason to get there in the first place. MSN didn't win over because it was better (I mean we all know how dreadful it is at every level) but people had a reason to use it because their relatives, loved ones, friends were using it. Regular people don't care about making jabber.org a better place. They want to communicate but they need a good reason to do so through it. I don't disagree, but if/when they ear the 'jabber' name for instant messaging, don't you think that the first hit on google should actually be helpful and have them talking in the least amount of time possible? without downloding a client. Considering the term client means nothing for most common users it's a good idea to avoid such term altogether. People use MSN or Skype... they have no idea they use the MSN client application that connects to the MSN servere. Jabber.org should probably have a webchat but I believe it should also consider having its own client named just that Jabber (or whatever foxy name that could trademark it). Even if it's just one of the existing OSS one with a nice looking skin. Even if you talk about browsers, people don't use a browser client, quite often they don't even use Firefox, IE or Opera... they use the Internet. The usual text applies I think: Start talking now with our web-based chat, or download one of this applications for your PC/Mac. client is a dev. term that has no concrete meaning for regular end user IMO. Well perhaps we should experiment by asking our relatives. If I ask my parents about client, they'll probably stare at me even though they use many on a daily basis. Try Application. Best regards, -- Pedro Melo Blog: http://www.simplicidade.org/notes/ XMPP ID: m...@simplicidade.org Use XMPP! ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
On Mar 11, 2009, at 4:10 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: On 3/11/09 10:00 AM, Pedro Melo wrote: Hi, On Mar 11, 2009, at 3:54 PM, Remko Tronçon wrote: Or would @pt.jabber.org IM accounts exist also? I'm not sure yet -- we're exploring this idea together. :) I wouldn't offer pt.jabber.org for IM accounts, exactly for the reasons you mentioned (you would have to migrate if you move somewhere etc.). Maybe I lack national pride, but I wouldn't want a be.jabber.org account, just plain, short, and simple jabber.org :-) Yeah... I can see right now being able to support pt.jabber.org services (socks, turn, translation, etc), but running a full IM service, not so much. Yes, it's a lot of work to support a full IM service. :) But if we make jabber.org too popular then we need to put more time into it. We'll need clustering at the least, because running everything on one machine in Iowa would not be enough. Not sure what the solution is here... Need some thinking time. But I also understand that other, who already have a bigger community, might want that to. Perhaps it's enough for now to figure out worldwide clustering of the jabber.org address space and deployment of minimal xmpp services (not hosting IM accounts) for bootstrapping of SOCKS5 and TURN relays. Global clustering of jabber.org address space is wicked... hmms :) Best regards, -- Pedro Melo Blog: http://www.simplicidade.org/notes/ XMPP ID: m...@simplicidade.org Use XMPP! ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
On Wed Mar 11 17:39:27 2009, Pedro Melo wrote: The usual text applies I think: Start talking now with our web-based chat, or download one of this applications for your PC/Mac. It might be worthwhile jabber.org holding some kind of (regular) competition in order to get a blessed Jabber.org client for each platform. I can see horrible disadvantages to this, but the upside would be that client developers would have a real incentive to be an ideal XMPP client. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:d...@cridland.net - xmpp:d...@dave.cridland.net - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
On 3/11/09 11:41 AM, Pedro Melo wrote: On Mar 11, 2009, at 4:10 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: Perhaps it's enough for now to figure out worldwide clustering of the jabber.org address space and deployment of minimal xmpp services (not hosting IM accounts) for bootstrapping of SOCKS5 and TURN relays. Global clustering of jabber.org address space is wicked... hmms :) Well, perhaps we don't need that right away. Focusing on the relays will provide more value. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
Peter Saint-Andre wrote: For me the idea here is that jabber.org will be the community-driven running code laboratory for the formal rough consensus technologies produced by the XMPP Standards Foundation. The goal is to build an open and distributed IM, presence, data, and VoIP service that can provide a realistic alternative to closed systems like Skype. We should be prepared to answer the question why Jabber? My sister has a Skype account and her friends also have one. Why should she download this Jabber thing? Don't answer with freedom and open -- that has no meaning for the average user. Dirk -- Microsoft Windows didn't get as bad as it is overnight -- it took over ten years of careful development ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
On Wed Mar 11 18:00:08 2009, Dirk Meyer wrote: Peter Saint-Andre wrote: For me the idea here is that jabber.org will be the community-driven running code laboratory for the formal rough consensus technologies produced by the XMPP Standards Foundation. The goal is to build an open and distributed IM, presence, data, and VoIP service that can provide a realistic alternative to closed systems like Skype. We should be prepared to answer the question why Jabber? My sister has a Skype account and her friends also have one. Why should she download this Jabber thing? Don't answer with freedom and open -- that has no meaning for the average user. Security, accountability, and transparency. If any of these don't fit well, yet, then we should fix 'em. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:d...@cridland.net - xmpp:d...@dave.cridland.net - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
We should be prepared to answer the question why Jabber? My sister has a Skype account and her friends also have one. Why should she download this Jabber thing? Don't answer with freedom and open -- that has no meaning for the average user. As a goal, this doesn't say much to the average user indeed. However, you could swing it in a way that says Connects/Works with/... popular services such as Google Talk, Live Journal, ... Security could indeed also appeal to some (I think people like to hear that what they're doing is 'secure', they don't even need to understand). Accountability and transparency, that I don't really know why that would be useful. I agree we should make a strong case for switching. And that's why we need deployed and working features such as Jingle to leverage this. cheers, Remko ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
On Wed Mar 11 18:16:32 2009, Remko Tronçon wrote: We should be prepared to answer the question why Jabber? My sister has a Skype account and her friends also have one. Why should she download this Jabber thing? Don't answer with freedom and open -- that has no meaning for the average user. As a goal, this doesn't say much to the average user indeed. However, you could swing it in a way that says Connects/Works with/... popular services such as Google Talk, Live Journal, ... Security could indeed also appeal to some (I think people like to hear that what they're doing is 'secure', they don't even need to understand). Accountability and transparency, that I don't really know why that would be useful. Oh. I didn't think this was about useful. I thought this was about convincing Dirk's sister with impressive sounding buzzwords that we can backup with some kind of fact. I agree we should make a strong case for switching. And that's why we need deployed and working features such as Jingle to leverage this. Jingle, etc, yes. But really, we need to make it cool. The only way I can see to do that is to add on social networking as a core feature of Jabber. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:d...@cridland.net - xmpp:d...@dave.cridland.net - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
Dave Cridland wrote: On Wed Mar 11 18:16:32 2009, Remko Tronçon wrote: As a goal, this doesn't say much to the average user indeed. However, you could swing it in a way that says Connects/Works with/... popular services such as Google Talk, Live Journal, ... Security could indeed also appeal to some (I think people like to hear that what they're doing is 'secure', they don't even need to understand). Accountability and transparency, that I don't really know why that would be useful. Oh. I didn't think this was about useful. I thought this was about convincing Dirk's sister with impressive sounding buzzwords that we can backup with some kind of fact. Right. It is all about marketing. It would help (not for my sister) if we easy MSN/AIM/ICQ integration (gateway) in the servers and an EASY way to provide the credentials. That makes switching painless for everything except Skype (You can still talk to your friends). Take a look at the Skype website: it is presented in German for me (I giess based on the IP address), a big photo (makes no sense, but it looks like web 2.0), and a button download. I guess that is what we need. The download would be a problem: 1. Do not let the user choose between x clients. Jabber.org should have one default client for Windows/MAC users (Linux users are grown up, they already know how to choose stuff). 2. The client must have Jingle support incl. Video 3. Userfriendly setup. E.g. a wizzard asking me if I already have an account or if one should be created. It has to include a list of XMPP servers for the user to choose. The list should be short. 4. The client must be able to auto-update itself. Users do not check for new versions, the software has to do that. World domination is a slow process. :) Dirk -- My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely. ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
2009/3/11 Remko Tronçon re...@el-tramo.be: But all the past initiatives have failed to bring contributions... By the way, I think one of the most important parts of failure on jabber.org contributions is the fact that it was Wiki-driven. I agree that this is impossible to keep in sync, and I don't believe a Wiki-based approach can work. Don't blame the technology when a missing tightly defined goal caused failure. You can do great things with bad technology if you have a tightly defined and motivating goal. -- Mvg, Sander Devrieze. ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
It is unlikely that jabber.org (as a community run effort) could turn into a consumer service that could take on Skype or Gtalk - and perhaps that shouldn't be its purpose. If the intent is to support XMPP - then there is a consumer service that uses XMPP she could use- GTalk. There may be other reasons for her to use other Google services. As previously noted: Consumers vote for functionality, not standards. This is not to say a commercial service based on XMPP wont be viable - but just to keep up with the state of the art it would need audio, video, document sharing, micro blogging and other integrated services before your every day user would download yet another IM client. Yes - there are several highly functional XMPP clients out there - but only us XMPP geeks could possibly love them. My sense is that the best use for a jabber.org service would be a sandbox for developers to expose unique features (say pub/sub, persistent chat), interesting adaptations like Chesspark, and other skunk works projects. This exposition will encourage other developers to use XMPP in their product/service offerings and XMPP would just become embedded everywhere - which is the larger goal. My 2 jabbers worth. --- On Wed, 3/11/09, Dirk Meyer dme...@tzi.de wrote: We should be prepared to answer the question why Jabber? My sister has a Skype account and her friends also have one. Why should she download this Jabber thing? Don't answer with freedom and open -- that has no meaning for the average user. Dirk ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
Wednesday 11 March 2009 15:20:39 Nicolas Vérité napisał(a): You got now the Join now!, but still no form ;-) Based on my personal experience in promoting Jabber among my friends I'd say that this button should not only create jabber account, but also give you a download link to one client. People new to jabber don't want to browse huge list of clients and compare features - they'd rather have someone else choose client for them. Also, it would be nice to have transport configuration + roster import built in this form as well. I'd love to be able to just go to pl.jabber.org, type my new username, Gadu-Gadu number and password and have usable jabber account with my old (gadu-gadu) contats on it. I suppose other countries could use such feature as well (with ICQ/MSN/etc) Regards Adam ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
On Tuesday 10 March 2009 16:24:50 Peter Saint-Andre wrote: None of this would be exclusive. We'd still strongly encourage people to run their own XMPP services and join the network. But we'd also work hard to have worldwide coverage under the jabber.org banner. This proposal reminds me of our discussion in Portland last year with Christopher Zorn, about the future of Psi. I was all tied up in a knot because I felt that to truly target average users, Psi would have to be bound with a service, but that doing so would taint Psi's image and go against the point of Jabber. You see, I have this idea that there's generic Jabber services and clients and then there's integrated services like Google Talk and SAPO, but only the generic offerings count as being part of the Jabber ideal. Christopher basically said this view is too limiting. Is Chesspark not part of the Jabber ideal then? His point was that in the end it's all about offering great software and services, and holding on to this generic client idea is self-defeating. Normal people don't want generic building blocks. One compromise we discussed was to have Psi affiliate with jabber.org (rather than some Psi-specific service) to attempt to retain client/service separation while still making it easier for end-users to get set up. I think Christopher also felt this was silly (again, why *not* capitalize on this opportunity to offer your own service?), but what can I say I'm a Jabber philosophy idiot. In any case, we reasoned that users would find the dual-branding confusing. First they visit the Psi website, then suddenly they are signing up for a jabber.org account... WTF? Seems shady. Speaking of first they visit the Psi website, Christopher argued that users will start at the client, mainly because it is the face of the service. They will see the software running on a friend's computer, or they'll see a screenshot or such, and think Hey, that's pretty cool, I want that. The approach of going to jabber.org and having to pick a client is backwards. If your vision is to take on Skype directly, it sounds like what is needed is a strong front-running client that has matching branding of the service itself. To most users, the client and service would be synonymous with each other, as is the case with Skype, MSN, etc. The big question of all is whether it is the job of jabber.org to compete with Skype. Aren't there others in this space already trying to do that? If jabber.org is truly competitive, and no longer a self-defeating reference service, is it still fair to use the Jabber name? Peter, you may remember, one of the options we discussed was to actually get rid of jabber.org entirely. ;-) -Justin ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
Justin Karneges a écrit : On Tuesday 10 March 2009 16:24:50 Peter Saint-Andre wrote: None of this would be exclusive. We'd still strongly encourage people to run their own XMPP services and join the network. But we'd also work hard to have worldwide coverage under the jabber.org banner. This proposal reminds me of our discussion in Portland last year with Christopher Zorn, about the future of Psi. I was all tied up in a knot because I felt that to truly target average users, Psi would have to be bound with a service, but that doing so would taint Psi's image and go against the point of Jabber. I can't quite remember for Psi but I know many existing clients already make a clear distinction between Jabber and Google Talk when you signup. I actually use the Google Talk because, for some unknown reason, it feels like it fits better when I use my GTalk account. This is of course not the case. - Sylvain ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
2009/3/11 Justin Karneges justin-keyword-jabber.093...@affinix.com: snip The big question of all is whether it is the job of jabber.org to compete with Skype. Aren't there others in this space already trying to do that? If jabber.org is truly competitive, and no longer a self-defeating reference service, is it still fair to use the Jabber name? Peter, you may remember, one of the options we discussed was to actually get rid of jabber.org entirely. ;-) I was just discussion with Peter about the idea to host a blank page on the jabber.org domain...so yes, count me in for that idea! B-) -- Mvg, Sander Devrieze. ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
Hi, On 3/10/09 5:24 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: 1. A clean and simple website with minimal text that will help end users get started with Jabber. 2. Web chat for a real-time window into one end-user chatroom and one developer chatroom (and perhaps one additional room, such as a language-specific or country-specific room). 3. Internationalized versions of everything so that volunteers around the world can run sites like de.jabber.org (Germany) and pt.jabber.org (Portugal). 4. Extension of this international model to XMPP services, so that we can run SOCKS5 data proxies for file transfer and TURN media relays for voice+video all over the world (we'll need to convince companies and ISPs and non-profit organizations that this is in their interest, since they are the people with the bandwidth). To make this happen, I think we need the following: 8. Perhaps centralized registration at jabber.org, which you can then use to connect to any local xmpp service (pt.jabber.org or whatever). I really like this idea ! As we are speaking XMPP, why not use (or even abuse) pubsub stuff when something is published onto the website ? We could easily imagine a dual publishing flow: one for the old HTTP and one dedicated for the bright new XMPP ? This way we could both satisfy users like me and we could also demo that PubSub *is really a damn killer feature*. Regards Xavier -- http://www.gnu.org http://www.april.org http://www.lolica.org ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
Hi, I have this vision for jabber.org services: 1. A clean and simple website with minimal text that will help end users get started with Jabber. Yeah. Less content but precious one. 3. Internationalized versions of everything so that volunteers around the world can run sites like de.jabber.org (Germany) and pt.jabber.org (Portugal). In case fr.jabber.org would emerge, I am willing to volunteer in helping maintaining it (with other french pokes). For me the idea here is that jabber.org will be the community-driven running code laboratory for the formal rough consensus technologies produced by the XMPP Standards Foundation. The goal is to build an open and distributed IM, presence, data, and VoIP service that can provide a realistic alternative to closed systems like Skype. None of this would be exclusive. We'd still strongly encourage people to run their own XMPP services and join the network. But we'd also work hard to have worldwide coverage under the jabber.org banner. Server federation is a good way to go, IMO. Call this Jabber 2.0 if you must. In any case, I think it's time for a strong community centered at jabber.org to provide technology leadership in the communication space and thus help us all achieve the original mission that Jeremie Miller set out long ago: freedom of conversation. Amen ! Xavier -- http://www.gnu.org http://www.april.org http://www.lolica.org ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 8:05 PM, Justin Karneges justin-keyword-jabber.093...@affinix.com wrote: snip First they visit the Psi website, then suddenly they are signing up for a jabber.org account... WTF? Seems shady. Speaking of first they visit the Psi website, Christopher argued that users will start at the client, mainly because it is the face of the service. They will see the software running on a friend's computer, or they'll see a screenshot or such, and think Hey, that's pretty cool, I want that. The approach of going to jabber.org and having to pick a client is backwards. Interesting. I had never quite thought about it this way before. I agree. The problem though is that it is the ideal. What we currently have is far from ideal, because we still have to serve these thousands of users who simply type Jabber into Google. The ideal is that operating systems will come pre-installed with clients, and that ISPs will be hosting servers. The former is already achieved in 2 major operating systems, the latter has been achieved in at least one case. Still a long way to go though. If your vision is to take on Skype directly, it sounds like what is needed is a strong front-running client that has matching branding of the service itself. To most users, the client and service would be synonymous with each other, as is the case with Skype, MSN, etc. Again, I can't wait :) The big question of all is whether it is the job of jabber.org to compete with Skype. Aren't there others in this space already trying to do that? If jabber.org is truly competitive, and no longer a self-defeating reference service, is it still fair to use the Jabber name? Peter, you may remember, one of the options we discussed was to actually get rid of jabber.org entirely. ;-) Well by using the Jabber name we no doubt bring upon ourselves responsibilities associated with doing so. This includes being a reference service (on XMPP) and inevitably a kind of hub site for the network in general (on HTTP). If we were to disband jabber.org I think it would set adoption back quite some way, confuse users and leave them with nowhere official-looking to turn to. (Not that we're official-looking right now, but I'm hoping that's to change). I had told myself not to reply to this thread, but your post at least stood out as something worth thinking about :) Matthew. ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
On 3/11/09 2:05 PM, Justin Karneges wrote: The big question of all is whether it is the job of jabber.org to compete with Skype. Aren't there others in this space already trying to do that? If jabber.org is truly competitive, and no longer a self-defeating reference service, is it still fair to use the Jabber name? Peter, you may remember, one of the options we discussed was to actually get rid of jabber.org entirely. ;-) Well, we have 400,000+ users of the jabber.org IM service. Shutting down the service seems unworkable. So the questions are: 1. Do we turn off registration for new users and redirect people elsewhere? 2. Do we leave the jabber.org service as basic IM but nothing more? 3. Do we try to deploy the kinds of services that are needed in order for people to have a better experience? As far as I can see, those services are SOCKS5 and TURN relays for file transfer and voice/video. But we can't deploy just one of those (it would be overloaded) so we need to deploy them more widely -- perhaps just Europe and North America to start, but eventually in many locations so that people can use local relays everywhere. If we're going to do #3, then we'll have something that starts to look like a free and open alternative to Skype. Perhaps it would not be marketed as such, but it would be something like that in reality. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
On Wednesday 11 March 2009 18:57:36 Peter Saint-Andre wrote: Well, we have 400,000+ users of the jabber.org IM service. Shutting down the service seems unworkable. So the questions are: Right, you wouldn't want to really remove it. Instead: 1. Do we turn off registration for new users and redirect people elsewhere? Yes. 2. Do we leave the jabber.org service as basic IM but nothing more? I don't think there's anything wrong with improving the service for the people already using it, but it would be with the understanding that jabber.org is a very generic IM service, only good for testers, geeks, and anyone who already has an account there. It would no longer be a place you'd send your mom. You'd send your mom to Google Talk, or any service competing on that level. Feel free to spearhead such a competing service. I didn't disagree with your vision. In fact, this idea of a collaborative, open, world-wide service sounds incredible, if you can pull it off and maintain five nines. :) I just don't think using the name Jabber is wise. A giant service named Jabber, with a client named Jabber (JIM? :)) only adds naming confusion, and may be perceived by competitors as unfair (we want them to use the word Jabber as much as possible, and not be afraid of it). I think you'd have just as much success calling the client+service Andre-IM (ahn-dream?), which could then be promoted as a Jabber-based Skype killer. This would be fair as well as easier to market. 3. Do we try to deploy the kinds of services that are needed in order for people to have a better experience? As far as I can see, those services are SOCKS5 and TURN relays for file transfer and voice/video. But we can't deploy just one of those (it would be overloaded) so we need to deploy them more widely -- perhaps just Europe and North America to start, but eventually in many locations so that people can use local relays everywhere. I don't think it can hurt to do this, if the resources are there. -Justin ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
On 3/11/09 9:18 PM, Justin Karneges wrote: I didn't disagree with your vision. In fact, this idea of a collaborative, open, world-wide service sounds incredible, if you can pull it off and maintain five nines. :) I just don't think using the name Jabber is wise. A giant service named Jabber, with a client named Jabber (JIM? :)) only adds naming confusion, and may be perceived by competitors as unfair (we want them to use the word Jabber as much as possible, and not be afraid of it). We could call it FreeTalk or something, but that name is already taken: http://www.gnu.org/software/freetalk/ http://share.skype.com/sites/skypegear/2008/01/skypegear_roadtest_freetalk_st.html smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
Awesomelooks like a great vision to me! Hope it becomes a reality. Geof Lambert | 916.225.6769 Chat: Google Talk: geof.lambert Skype: geof.lambert MSN: geof.lamb...@gmail.com Contact Me: [image: Linkedin] http://www.linkedin.com/in/geoflambert[image: Twitter] http://twitter.com/digitaldivide[image: MySpace]http://www.myspace.com/greenprotocol On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 4:24 PM, Peter Saint-Andre stpe...@stpeter.imwrote: As posted at my blog *** I have this vision for jabber.org services: 1. A clean and simple website with minimal text that will help end users get started with Jabber. 2. Web chat for a real-time window into one end-user chatroom and one developer chatroom (and perhaps one additional room, such as a language-specific or country-specific room). 3. Internationalized versions of everything so that volunteers around the world can run sites like de.jabber.org (Germany) and pt.jabber.org (Portugal). 4. Extension of this international model to XMPP services, so that we can run SOCKS5 data proxies for file transfer and TURN media relays for voice+video all over the world (we'll need to convince companies and ISPs and non-profit organizations that this is in their interest, since they are the people with the bandwidth). For me the idea here is that jabber.org will be the community-driven running code laboratory for the formal rough consensus technologies produced by the XMPP Standards Foundation. The goal is to build an open and distributed IM, presence, data, and VoIP service that can provide a realistic alternative to closed systems like Skype. None of this would be exclusive. We'd still strongly encourage people to run their own XMPP services and join the network. But we'd also work hard to have worldwide coverage under the jabber.org banner. Call this Jabber 2.0 if you must. In any case, I think it's time for a strong community centered at jabber.org to provide technology leadership in the communication space and thus help us all achieve the original mission that Jeremie Miller set out long ago: freedom of conversation. *** ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___ ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] a vision
On 3/10/09 5:24 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: 1. A clean and simple website with minimal text that will help end users get started with Jabber. 2. Web chat for a real-time window into one end-user chatroom and one developer chatroom (and perhaps one additional room, such as a language-specific or country-specific room). 3. Internationalized versions of everything so that volunteers around the world can run sites like de.jabber.org (Germany) and pt.jabber.org (Portugal). 4. Extension of this international model to XMPP services, so that we can run SOCKS5 data proxies for file transfer and TURN media relays for voice+video all over the world (we'll need to convince companies and ISPs and non-profit organizations that this is in their interest, since they are the people with the bandwidth). To make this happen, I think we need the following: 1. Strong user/admin/developer communities throughout the world so that we have a strong base of volunteers to help out. 2. One or more easy-to-deploy IM + media relay (+web?) server packages so that volunteers around the world can quickly deploy services in their localities. 3. Easy-to-use clients that support the full range of features we'll be deploying (perhaps different profiles such as IM and IM+media). 4. Good integration between the IM, media, and website services so that we have easy web-based user registration, straightforward discovery of media relays, web interfaces to chatrooms, etc. 5. A compelling story that will encourage companies and non-profit organizations to deploy services. 6. Simple templates for internationalized / localized websites, clients, etc. 7. Effective management of the DNS aspects because if all does well we will have a lot of subdomains to manage. 8. Perhaps centralized registration at jabber.org, which you can then use to connect to any local xmpp service (pt.jabber.org or whatever). 9. Collaboration with other global-but-localized services such as Fon. 10. Keep everything as local as possible. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
