Re: Jenkins Plugin Install Wizard - check out the progress (video) ...

2015-10-02 Thread Victor Martinez 
I really appreciate your feedback again, it is constructive and probably 
when I started this thread I was not constructive in the way I wanted, so I 
apologize about it. 

So coming back to those points, I'm giving that feedback according to my 
own experience, as you can imagine. But I feel somehow the Workflow plugin 
is being highlighted as recommended plugin IMO, as I mentioned previously 
Configuration as Code for someone fairly new is likely a 3 years approach 
(from the standardization point of view) compared to the CI approach which 
is likely a 15 years approach. In that case that list of plugins  as long 
as it's only focused in less experienced users with less experimental 
concepts should be more tiny, and somehow shouldn't "promote" anything 
hardcore complex even though it's something I like and I use quite often, 
but being strict about those 4 criteria points. What do you think?

In any case, I don't want to be blocker on this feature, just highlight my 
concerns

Thanks again

On Friday, 2 October 2015 02:36:33 UTC+2, Daniel Beck wrote:
>
>
> On 01.10.2015, at 15:36, Victor Martinez  > wrote: 
>
> > - Does the plugin integrate well with Jenkins? Does it work well in 
> secured and distributed Jenkins? 
> >As I already mention "secured" shouldn't pruned any plugins as long 
> as those are heavily used by the community and it is an open source version 
>
> I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. If a plugin, without warning 
> you, undermines whatever security the admin sets up, it should not be 
> available in this dialog. 
>
> > - Are the features it provides useful to someone fairly new to Jenkins? 
> >What do you mean about someone fairly new to Jenkins? Configuration 
> as Code (Workflow, JobDSL or jenkins builder) will be fairly complex to 
> understand by someone new to Jenkins, even using  you use Workflow, don't 
> you think?Then some of those recommended plugins don't follow this 
> criteria. 
>
> You'll notice I left out plugins that, secured or not, are mostly useful 
> when scripting around in Jenkins internals. The kind of plugin that makes 
> people file issues like JENKINS-26416 or JENKINS-24790. For example, Groovy 
> Postbuild and Scriptler fall into this category. 
>
> Looking at the list of plugins you're showing me I can say with confidence 
> that this setup dialog is not meant for you, but that's okay -- it's not 
> meant for me either! It is for getting less (or in-)experienced users 
> started with a useful set of features, rather than dumping them into an 
> empty instance that doesn't even have their SCM. 
>
>

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Re: Jenkins Plugin Install Wizard - check out the progress (video) ...

2015-10-02 Thread Tom Fennelly 
On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 1:36:33 AM UTC+1, Daniel Beck wrote:
>
>
> On 01.10.2015, at 15:36, Victor Martinez  > wrote: 
>
> > - Does the plugin integrate well with Jenkins? Does it work well in 
> secured and distributed Jenkins? 
> >As I already mention "secured" shouldn't pruned any plugins as long 
> as those are heavily used by the community and it is an open source version 
>
> I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. If a plugin, without warning 
> you, undermines whatever security the admin sets up, it should not be 
> available in this dialog. 
>
> > - Are the features it provides useful to someone fairly new to Jenkins? 
> >What do you mean about someone fairly new to Jenkins? Configuration 
> as Code (Workflow, JobDSL or jenkins builder) will be fairly complex to 
> understand by someone new to Jenkins, even using  you use Workflow, don't 
> you think?Then some of those recommended plugins don't follow this 
> criteria. 
>
> You'll notice I left out plugins that, secured or not, are mostly useful 
> when scripting around in Jenkins internals. The kind of plugin that makes 
> people file issues like JENKINS-26416 or JENKINS-24790. For example, Groovy 
> Postbuild and Scriptler fall into this category. 
>
> Looking at the list of plugins you're showing me I can say with confidence 
> that this setup dialog is not meant for you, but that's okay -- it's not 
> meant for me either! It is for getting less (or in-)experienced users 
> started with a useful set of features, rather than dumping them into an 
> empty instance that doesn't even have their SCM. 
>

I think we all agree that the wizard should have a trimmed down list of 
"suggested" plugins, where the "suggested" plugins are a subset of "all" 
plugins and the "recommended" plugins are a subset of the "suggested" 
plugins:

   - "all" (> 1000 plugins)
  - "suggested" (< 100 plugins atm)
 - "recommended" (< 20 plugins atm)
  
I'd hope all would agree that having the wizard display "all" plugins (by 
default) is just plain nuts :) That's not going to help anyone (new or 
veteran Jenkins user). I'd hope all would agree that we just list/show the 
"suggested" plugins (by default).

So what do I mean by "by default" ? To me, the scrollable list of 
"suggested" plugins is most useful to new Jenkins users (and probably even 
new to CI/CD). I think it's really only new users that will NOT filter the 
list in some way - simply coz they're not sure what they're looking for and 
so wouldn't know what to filter on. To me, this is the only group to which 
the "suggested" list of plugins makes sense. Most other users will very 
likely know what they're looking  and so will filter the list Vs scrolling 
all the suggested plugins (~100 of).

I think once the user starts applying a filter to the selection (by typing 
in the search box) then we could actually filter on "all" Jenkins plugins 
(all 1000+ of them). In other words, we can think of the "suggested" 
plugins as just being the "default" filtered list.

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Re: Jenkins Plugin Install Wizard - check out the progress (video) ...

2015-10-01 Thread Daniel Beck 

On 30.09.2015, at 08:30, Victor Martinez  wrote:

> On the other hand, if the security is one of the important pieces then any 
> Builder might be affected easily since AFAIK they don't run in any sandbox 
> therefore you might run "rm -rf /" and change the restriction label as 
> "master". Does it mean "Shell plugin" (I know it's part of the core) is 
> unsecured? If so, does it mean any other plugins which are using it are also 
> unsecured? And that's an example of bypassing the "security layout". Don't 
> get me wrong, I do like the idea of adding value to Jenkins with this wizard 
> feature, but what I don't like is the way of filtering plugins which are 
> useful IMO.

(Accidentally sent this to Victor directly)

It's possible to secure an instance well enough from this by e.g. setting the 
number of executors on master to 0. Another option would be plugins that limit 
what can be built where using the QueueTaskDispatcher extension point. Sure, 
users can still wreak havoc on slaves, but that's probably less of an issue 
than having unrestricted access to JENKINS_HOME.

Regarding the plugin criteria, it looked like a good idea to not surprise users 
by including plugins that make any security configuration they may configure 
irrelevant. Maybe I'm wrong about this and nobody cares (but then I wonder why 
Role Strategy is so popular, complex security setups that are too painful doing 
with matrix-auth is the one thing it does). So if there are others who think 
that plugins undermining an admin-defined security setup should be allowed into 
the wizard, please say so.

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Re: Jenkins Plugin Install Wizard - check out the progress (video) ...

2015-10-01 Thread Daniel Beck 

On 01.10.2015, at 08:42, Victor Martinez  wrote:

> Therefore, IMO those categories and recommended plugin as long as they are 
> not part of any Commercial version shouldn't be blocked by those 3 "filters", 
> don't you think? I mean, if I was Company who provides a Jenkins enterprise 
> version I shouldn't allow any unsecured plugins for bare things even though 
> it's also based on OSS, but as long as this is an open source version it 
> shouldn't restrict those plugins at all. 
> 
> Again, I strongly believe this wizard is a great idea but this approach 
> prunes too much plugins.

Please provide an alternative list of criteria, or plugins -- right now it's 
not clear how you'd like to proceed here. Or are you rejecting the concept of a 
curated list entirely, preferring to show all 1000+ plugins?

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Re: Jenkins Plugin Install Wizard - check out the progress (video) ...

2015-10-01 Thread Victor Martinez 
Sure, Since there was already an agreement of having a single wizard as Tom 
already noticed, sorry about that suggestion, I joint the thread a bit 
late, I believe in the below criteria (see my red and blue comments)

- Is the plugin useful, and does it actually work? (Mostly approximated by 
install count) 
   Agree
- Does the plugin integrate well with Jenkins? Does it work well in secured and 
distributed Jenkins? 
   As I already mention "secured" shouldn't pruned any plugins as long as 
those are heavily used by the community and it is an open source version
- Are the features it provides useful to someone fairly new to Jenkins? 
   What do you mean about someone fairly new to Jenkins? Configuration as 
Code (Workflow, JobDSL or jenkins builder) will be fairly complex to 
understand by someone new to Jenkins, even using  you use Workflow, don't 
you think?Then some of those recommended plugins don't follow this criteria.
- Even if it's not popular, is it a reasonably common SCM? (SCM's are so 
fundamental to successful Jenkins use that these shouldn't be as heavily 
restricted as some of the other categories.) 
   Agree

As an example of one of my production jenkins instances, there are a bunch 
of plugins and probably some of them will not part of the recommended list, 
since the above list criteria.

PluginVersionNumber of jobshipchat 
0.1.6449throttle-
concurrents 

1.8.3292rebuild 
1.22291timestamper 
1.5.13261build-failure-analyzer 
1.13.0254
envinject 1.90
236mercurial 
1.50163build-blocker-plugin 
1.6157
heavy-job 1.1
157mailer 1.15150jira 
1.39114git 
2.3.589multiple-scms 
0.375ws-
cleanup 
0.2156
ownership 0.7
47parameterized-trigger 
2.
2545github 1.11.3
26matrix-project 
1.624
gradle 1.2422build
-timeout 1.
14.120ant 1.220groovy 
1.1920conditional-
buildstep 
1.
3.316junit 1.915
chucknorris 
0.510groovy-postbuild 
1.108
copyartifact 
1.318build-
user-vars-plugin 
1.47email
-ext 2.38.26job
-dsl 1.385
postbuildscript 
0.165
jenkins-multijob-plugin 
1.135ircbot 
2.255custom-tools-
plugin 0.
4.44htmlpublisher 
1.44sonar 
2.13
subversion 2.5
.13ghprb 

1.28.62scriptler 
2.72javadoc 
1.12locks-and-
latches 0
.62xvnc 1.172
findbugs 4.562cobertura 
1.9.52feature-
branch-notifier

Re: Jenkins Plugin Install Wizard - check out the progress (video) ...

2015-10-01 Thread Baptiste Mathus 
IIUC, though it seems a good idea to try and base the list to the actual
usage of plugins, this wouldn't work for many plugins that do not have to
be configured.

For example, it wouldn't work for mine which is enabled globally (
buildtriggerbadge
,
obviously required in the list if you ask me).

2015-10-01 15:36 GMT+02:00 Victor Martinez :

> Sure, Since there was already an agreement of having a single wizard as
> Tom already noticed, sorry about that suggestion, I joint the thread a bit
> late, I believe in the below criteria (see my red and blue comments)
>
> - Is the plugin useful, and does it actually work? (Mostly approximated by
> install count)
>Agree
> - Does the plugin integrate well with Jenkins? Does it work well in
> secured and distributed Jenkins?
>As I already mention "secured" shouldn't pruned any plugins as long as
> those are heavily used by the community and it is an open source version
> - Are the features it provides useful to someone fairly new to Jenkins?
>What do you mean about someone fairly new to Jenkins? Configuration as
> Code (Workflow, JobDSL or jenkins builder) will be fairly complex to
> understand by someone new to Jenkins, even using  you use Workflow, don't
> you think?Then some of those recommended plugins don't follow this criteria.
> - Even if it's not popular, is it a reasonably common SCM? (SCM's are so
> fundamental to successful Jenkins use that these shouldn't be as heavily
> restricted as some of the other categories.)
>Agree
>
> As an example of one of my production jenkins instances, there are a bunch
> of plugins and probably some of them will not part of the recommended list,
> since the above list criteria.
>
> PluginVersionNumber of jobshipchat
> 0.1.6449
> throttle-concurrents
> 
> 1.8.3292rebuild
> 1.22291
> timestamper 1.5.13
> 261build-failure-analyzer
> 1.13.0
> 254envinject
> 1.90236
> mercurial 
> 1.50163build-blocker-plugin
> 1.6157
> heavy-job 1.
> 1157mailer 1.15150jira
> 1.39114git
> 2.3.589multiple-
> scms 0.3
> 75ws-cleanup
> 0.21
> 56ownership 
> 0.747parameterized-trigger
> 2
> .2545github 1.11
> .326matrix-project
> 1.624
> gradle 1.2422
> build-timeout
> 1.14.120
> ant 1.220groovy
> 1.1920
> conditional-buildstep
> 
> 1.3.316junit 1.9
> 15chucknorris
> 0.510groovy
> -postbuild
> 1.108
> copyartifact
> 1.318
> build-user-vars-plugin
> 1.47
> email-ext 2.
> 38.26job-dsl 1
> .385postbuildscript
> 0.165
> jenkins-multijob-plugin
> 1.135ircbot
> 2.255custom-tools-
> plugin 0.
> 4.44htmlpublisher
> 1.44
> sonar 
> 2.13subversion
> 2.5.13ghprb
>

Re: Jenkins Plugin Install Wizard - check out the progress (video) ...

2015-10-01 Thread Daniel Beck 

On 01.10.2015, at 15:36, Victor Martinez  wrote:

> - Does the plugin integrate well with Jenkins? Does it work well in secured 
> and distributed Jenkins? 
>As I already mention "secured" shouldn't pruned any plugins as long as 
> those are heavily used by the community and it is an open source version

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. If a plugin, without warning you, 
undermines whatever security the admin sets up, it should not be available in 
this dialog.

> - Are the features it provides useful to someone fairly new to Jenkins? 
>What do you mean about someone fairly new to Jenkins? Configuration as 
> Code (Workflow, JobDSL or jenkins builder) will be fairly complex to 
> understand by someone new to Jenkins, even using  you use Workflow, don't you 
> think?Then some of those recommended plugins don't follow this criteria.

You'll notice I left out plugins that, secured or not, are mostly useful when 
scripting around in Jenkins internals. The kind of plugin that makes people 
file issues like JENKINS-26416 or JENKINS-24790. For example, Groovy Postbuild 
and Scriptler fall into this category.

Looking at the list of plugins you're showing me I can say with confidence that 
this setup dialog is not meant for you, but that's okay -- it's not meant for 
me either! It is for getting less (or in-)experienced users started with a 
useful set of features, rather than dumping them into an empty instance that 
doesn't even have their SCM.

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Re: Jenkins Plugin Install Wizard - check out the progress (video) ...

2015-09-30 Thread Tom Fennelly 
On 30 September 2015 at 17:51, Victor Martinez <
victormartinezru...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I wonder whether we could somehow provide certain type of wizards. Let's
> say if you are using an enterprise version of Jenkins you might require the
> below recommend and secured plugins, if you use Jenkins for php then you
> might require another recommend list of plugins, and so on.
>
> An an example, eclipse already provide those default installations based
> on those needs:
> - https://eclipse.org/ide/
>
> Then that wizard installation might be more flexible and provide different
> solutions for different organizations.
>
> What do you think? Is it something feasible from the implementation point
> of view?
>
> Cheers
>

Hi Victor.

We did debate creating such as wizard on the other thread but came to the
conclusion that it would be too difficult to get agreement on it. So, we
just decided to go for the easier option as a v1, see how that goes and
then decide how it might evolve.

T.

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Re: Jenkins Plugin Install Wizard - check out the progress (video) ...

2015-09-30 Thread Tom Fennelly 
On 29 September 2015 at 23:24, Slide  wrote:

> I thought I saw workflow as one of the plugins that was a "recommended"
> plugin. If it wasn't there, then I misread and you can ignore me.
>

Workflow is there but it's not a cloudbees plugin.

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Re: Jenkins Plugin Install Wizard - check out the progress (video) ...

2015-09-30 Thread Victor Martinez 
That's a fair point actually, thanks for your answer. 

On the other hand, if the security is one of the important pieces then any 
Builder might be affected easily since AFAIK they don't run in any sandbox 
therefore you might run "rm -rf /" and change the restriction label as 
"master". Does it mean "Shell plugin" (I know it's part of the core) is 
unsecured? If so, does it mean any other plugins which are using it are 
also unsecured? And that's an example of bypassing the "security layout". 
Don't get me wrong, I do like the idea of adding value to Jenkins with this 
wizard feature, but what I don't like is the way of filtering plugins which 
are useful IMO.

Thanks again

On Tuesday, 29 September 2015 23:55:03 UTC+2, Daniel Beck wrote:
>
>
> On 29.09.2015, at 23:23, Victor Martinez  > wrote: 
>
> > Just went through the list of plugins and I'm really surprise there is 
> no references about the JobDSL plugin at all. I do understand the JobDSL 
> and Workflow might coexist and be somehow related but knowing it's been 
> available longer with more number of installations, it's actively 
> maintained by the community and it was one of the first plugins talking 
> about Configuration as Code paradigm I believe it should be part of the 
> Recommended plugins too. What do you think? 
>
> Last I checked, Job DSL does not integrate well with secured instances. 
> Grant one user Job/Configure on a single freestyle job and they can do 
> whatever they want to your instance. Therefore it fails the second 
> criterion I mentioned. 
>
>

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Re: Jenkins Plugin Install Wizard - check out the progress (video) ...

2015-09-30 Thread Tom Fennelly 
On 30 September 2015 at 10:51, Robert Sandell 
wrote:

> Yes, so when coding it up you can make sure that the categories can be
> ordered, not by sorting on the name and that there also could be
> description text for each category ;)
>
> /B
>

That's how it is now ... they're not sorted by name or anything. The
categories are displayed in the order in which they are "loaded", as are
the plugins within the categories. So ... we can easily change that order.

So it sounds as though you've spotted a problem somewhere but I don't hear
you say where specifically. If you have, please let us know.

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Re: Jenkins Plugin Install Wizard - check out the progress (video) ...

2015-09-30 Thread Tom Fennelly 
On 30 September 2015 at 10:22, Robert Sandell 
wrote:

> Tom, my brain is still stuck on the categories ;)
>
> I think the experience could be made a bit better if the categories was
> ordered in a bit of a smarter way, both to follow some sort of thought
> pattern and to ease the user into the depths of what plugins can do.
>
> An example:
>
> Source Code Management
> Build Tools
> Reporters and Notifiers
>
> CD etc
> Job Organisation (folders, views et.al.)
> "All"
>
> *(I didn't remember what categories you chose exactly so I made some up)*
>
> By having the user first think about their build environment (the CI
> part), the scm, tools and report types etc. And then show conceptual things
> like CD pipelines. And at the end get the user thinking about how to
> organise it all into folders and such. and maybe some explanatory texts
> about the category itself.
> That could make the experience a bit easier and more thought through?
>
> /B
>

Yeah, you may be right. I didn't come up with the categories (I think
Daniel did) and, to be honest, I'm not too hung up on that right now
because I know we'll probably need to go through a few rounds before we
find what works "best" in the general sense.

I emphasise "best" there because I think no matter what we do it will not
be perfect and there will be situations where some may find it's not
logical (or smart) in some way. That's just the nature of this kind of
thing I think. So, if we concentrate on the mechanics of how the wizard
looks/works and make sure we provide a way to easily change the
categorisations etc later (without having to rewrite code etc), then we
should be good. That's my hope anyway.

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Re: Jenkins Plugin Install Wizard - check out the progress (video) ...

2015-09-30 Thread Robert Sandell 
Yes, so when coding it up you can make sure that the categories can be
ordered, not by sorting on the name and that there also could be
description text for each category ;)

/B

On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Tom Fennelly 
wrote:

> On 30 September 2015 at 10:22, Robert Sandell 
> wrote:
>
>> Tom, my brain is still stuck on the categories ;)
>>
>> I think the experience could be made a bit better if the categories was
>> ordered in a bit of a smarter way, both to follow some sort of thought
>> pattern and to ease the user into the depths of what plugins can do.
>>
>> An example:
>>
>> Source Code Management
>> Build Tools
>> Reporters and Notifiers
>>
>> CD etc
>> Job Organisation (folders, views et.al.)
>> "All"
>>
>> *(I didn't remember what categories you chose exactly so I made some up)*
>>
>> By having the user first think about their build environment (the CI
>> part), the scm, tools and report types etc. And then show conceptual things
>> like CD pipelines. And at the end get the user thinking about how to
>> organise it all into folders and such. and maybe some explanatory texts
>> about the category itself.
>> That could make the experience a bit easier and more thought through?
>>
>> /B
>>
>
> Yeah, you may be right. I didn't come up with the categories (I think
> Daniel did) and, to be honest, I'm not too hung up on that right now
> because I know we'll probably need to go through a few rounds before we
> find what works "best" in the general sense.
>
> I emphasise "best" there because I think no matter what we do it will not
> be perfect and there will be situations where some may find it's not
> logical (or smart) in some way. That's just the nature of this kind of
> thing I think. So, if we concentrate on the mechanics of how the wizard
> looks/works and make sure we provide a way to easily change the
> categorisations etc later (without having to rewrite code etc), then we
> should be good. That's my hope anyway.
>
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Re: Jenkins Plugin Install Wizard - check out the progress (video) ...

2015-09-30 Thread Daniel Beck 

On 29.09.2015, at 23:49, 'Laurence Bordowitz' via Jenkins Developers 
 wrote:

> What constitutes admission into this special class of "curated" plugins? 
> There will be so many requests of, "I would prefer if my plugin, or a plugin 
> that I love, be in this special list," so knowing how to make the grade, or 
> having a process/committee, will help manage the chaos somewhat.

True, we'll probably need to establish some (lightweight) process here -- this 
may be as simple as what we're currently doing wrt pull requests to core, 
basically waiting to build enough consensus until someone presses the button.

But note that the majority of plugins will already fail the "popularity" test 
-- if you don't have 1k+ installs, it's unlikely you'll get onto the list. 
Unless you all agree this criterion is stupid; in that case, we'll need to 
think of something :-)

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Re: Jenkins Plugin Install Wizard - check out the progress (video) ...

2015-09-30 Thread Robert Sandell 
Tom, my brain is still stuck on the categories ;)

I think the experience could be made a bit better if the categories was
ordered in a bit of a smarter way, both to follow some sort of thought
pattern and to ease the user into the depths of what plugins can do.

An example:

Source Code Management
Build Tools
Reporters and Notifiers

CD etc
Job Organisation (folders, views et.al.)
"All"

*(I didn't remember what categories you chose exactly so I made some up)*

By having the user first think about their build environment (the CI part),
the scm, tools and report types etc. And then show conceptual things like
CD pipelines. And at the end get the user thinking about how to organise it
all into folders and such. and maybe some explanatory texts about the
category itself.
That could make the experience a bit easier and more thought through?

/B

On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Tom Fennelly 
wrote:

> On 29 September 2015 at 23:24, Slide  wrote:
>
>> I thought I saw workflow as one of the plugins that was a "recommended"
>> plugin. If it wasn't there, then I misread and you can ignore me.
>>
>
> Workflow is there but it's not a cloudbees plugin.
>
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Re: Jenkins Plugin Install Wizard - check out the progress (video) ...

2015-09-30 Thread James Nord 
OT: That's why you should never run builds on your master...

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Re: Jenkins Plugin Install Wizard - check out the progress (video) ...

2015-09-30 Thread Michael Neale 
However, wasn't the statistic that greater than 60% of installations (may 
have been 80%) run builds only on master, non distributed across slaves? 

(this does not change your point, McDonalds is still one of the most 
popular restaurants in the world, popularity doesn't necessarily mean a 
good idea!). 

On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 8:12:02 AM UTC+10, James Nord wrote:
>
> OT: That's why you should never run builds on your master...

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Re: Jenkins Plugin Install Wizard - check out the progress (video) ...

2015-09-30 Thread evernat 
I suggest to add the findbugs and warnings plugins next to checkstyle. They 
are both largely used. And using findbugs is common when using checkstyle 
and pmd.

By the way, a wizard suggesting 78 plugins instead of 1100 plugins is 
really great for newcomers. This list even remind me of 2 or 3 plugins I 
should have installed.

- Emeric

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Re: Jenkins Plugin Install Wizard - check out the progress (video) ...

2015-09-30 Thread Victor Martinez 
I wonder whether we could somehow provide certain type of wizards. Let's 
say if you are using an enterprise version of Jenkins you might require the 
below recommend and secured plugins, if you use Jenkins for php then you 
might require another recommend list of plugins, and so on. 

An an example, eclipse already provide those default installations based on 
those needs:
- https://eclipse.org/ide/

Then that wizard installation might be more flexible and provide different 
solutions for different organizations.

What do you think? Is it something feasible from the implementation point 
of view?

Cheers

On Wednesday, 30 September 2015 16:53:18 UTC+2, evernat wrote:
>
> I suggest to add the findbugs and warnings plugins next to checkstyle. 
> They are both largely used. And using findbugs is common when using 
> checkstyle and pmd.
>
> By the way, a wizard suggesting 78 plugins instead of 1100 plugins is 
> really great for newcomers. This list even remind me of 2 or 3 plugins I 
> should have installed.
>
> - Emeric
>
>

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Jenkins Plugin Install Wizard - check out the progress (video) ...

2015-09-29 Thread Tom Fennelly 
Hi.

Falling out of the "Revisiting bundled plugins 
"
 
thread, we now have ongoing work in PR #1822 
 (Keith Zantow, Gus Reiber 
and myself) to unbundle plugins from Jenkins core. As part of that, we are 
working on adding a Plugin Install Wizard as a way of making it easy to 
configure the initial set of plugin in Jenkins (for new or existing users).

Here's a short (rough) video showing the 
wizard: https://youtu.be/9pq5tHm4nWs

Keith did all the UI work with help from Gus, so kudos to them.

Also, please download and try he build from the CI server: jenkins.war 

.

Regards,

T.

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Re: Jenkins Plugin Install Wizard - check out the progress (video) ...

2015-09-29 Thread Victor Martinez 
Hi there,

Just went through the list of plugins and I'm really surprise there is no 
references about the JobDSL plugin at all. I do understand the JobDSL and 
Workflow might coexist and be somehow related but knowing it's been 
available longer with more number of installations, it's actively 
maintained by the community and it was one of the first plugins talking 
about Configuration as Code paradigm I believe it should be part of the 
Recommended plugins too. What do you think?

Cheers
 

On Tuesday, 29 September 2015 21:57:07 UTC+2, Daniel Beck wrote:
>
>
> On 29.09.2015, at 21:45, James Nord  
> wrote: 
>
> > matrix-plugin seems to be in the wrong bucket, fits better with "Build 
> Tools" which I have yet to come up for a better name even though I don;t 
> think it works as is. 
>
> The idea here was that the label axis feature is pretty cool here, and it 
> also lets you build on different nodes even without that. But you're right, 
> it's a weird one. 
>
>

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Re: Jenkins Plugin Install Wizard - check out the progress (video) ...

2015-09-29 Thread Slide 
I thought I saw workflow as one of the plugins that was a "recommended"
plugin. If it wasn't there, then I misread and you can ignore me.

On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 3:20 PM Daniel Beck  wrote:

>
> On 30.09.2015, at 00:03, Slide  wrote:
>
> > I hate to say this, but this effort is really coming off the wrong way,
> at least to me. I understand the idea of making the user experience better,
> but to me its coming across as CloudBees employees pushing CloudBees
> plugins into this new user experience. It may be my own personal
> perception, but that is how its coming across.
>
> Could you be a bit more specific?
>
> I mean, yes, I included CloudBees Folders, but that's because it works
> well and is useful. Nested views aren't nearly as nice, and they don't play
> well with permissions (while folders integrate e.g. with matrix-auth,
> allowing for nice per-team folders).
>
> But other than that, I don't remember including a single "CloudBees
> plugin".
>
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Re: Jenkins Plugin Install Wizard - check out the progress (video) ...

2015-09-29 Thread Daniel Beck 

On 30.09.2015, at 00:03, Slide  wrote:

> I hate to say this, but this effort is really coming off the wrong way, at 
> least to me. I understand the idea of making the user experience better, but 
> to me its coming across as CloudBees employees pushing CloudBees plugins into 
> this new user experience. It may be my own personal perception, but that is 
> how its coming across.

Could you be a bit more specific?

I mean, yes, I included CloudBees Folders, but that's because it works well and 
is useful. Nested views aren't nearly as nice, and they don't play well with 
permissions (while folders integrate e.g. with matrix-auth, allowing for nice 
per-team folders).

But other than that, I don't remember including a single "CloudBees plugin".

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Re: Jenkins Plugin Install Wizard - check out the progress (video) ...

2015-09-29 Thread Daniel Beck 

On 29.09.2015, at 23:23, Victor Martinez  wrote:

> Just went through the list of plugins and I'm really surprise there is no 
> references about the JobDSL plugin at all. I do understand the JobDSL and 
> Workflow might coexist and be somehow related but knowing it's been available 
> longer with more number of installations, it's actively maintained by the 
> community and it was one of the first plugins talking about Configuration as 
> Code paradigm I believe it should be part of the Recommended plugins too. 
> What do you think?

Last I checked, Job DSL does not integrate well with secured instances. Grant 
one user Job/Configure on a single freestyle job and they can do whatever they 
want to your instance. Therefore it fails the second criterion I mentioned.

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Re: Jenkins Plugin Install Wizard - check out the progress (video) ...

2015-09-29 Thread Daniel Beck 
Hi everyone,

While it is a much desired feature to have an initial setup experience that 
includes the ability to choose plugins, I'd rather not overwhelm inexperienced 
users by exposing them to the full list of plugins from the start. Forcing 
those with no experience to choose between 1000+ plugins before they can even 
start using Jenkins is an impossible task. They may not even be fully aware 
what plugins are for, and that Jenkins doesn't really do much without any of 
them. Who points them to Folders, Timestamper, or Build Timeout Plugin? Sure, 
they can always accept the defaults, but what if they want to modify something 
that should be simple enough, like add support for a less popular SCM like 
Mercurial?

A selection of known good plugins is a much better choice for this particular 
setup dialog, and that's how it's currently implemented. The initial selection 
of 'curated' (= available for selection) plugins was provided to Gus and Tom by 
me (and tweaked by them after some early reviewer feedback). I used the stats 
data[1] as a starting point and then tried to define useful categories for 
them. Those aren't always perfect, but should be close enough to work. The 
specific selections were made based on the following criteria:

- Is the plugin useful, and does it actually work? (Mostly approximated by 
install count)
- Does the plugin integrate well with Jenkins? Does it work well in secured and 
distributed Jenkins?
- Are the features it provides useful to someone fairly new to Jenkins?
- Even if it's not popular, is it a reasonably common SCM? (SCM's are so 
fundamental to successful Jenkins use that these shouldn't be as heavily 
restricted as some of the other categories.)

I admit the initial choices are somewhat colored by personal preferences, but 
note that these are simply that -- initial choices to unblock Tom, Gus and 
Keith, and get the discussion going. I also requested the data be moved into 
the update site, so we can review the choices periodically and update to what 
we consider the best choices of plugins for new users. This may not make it 
into the first version, but would then be added shortly afterwards.

Likewise, the plugins to be selected for installation by default are a subset 
of the curated list. For the SCMs, I used the 2014 Eclipse survey[2] to 
determine what's popular. Otherwise I selected a list of what I considered most 
universally useful, things that have people wondering why they're not core 
features. Again, despite the criteria above, there's probably some personal 
bias in this selection, but I'm not sure there's a much better way to provide a 
first draft.

So please take a look at the current choices and let us know what you think:


https://github.com/jenkinsci/jenkins/blob/unbundling-plugins/war/src/main/js/api/plugins.js

Do you think the criteria above aren't really useful? Do you have other 
suggestions for the categories, the curated list of plugins, or the default 
selection? Please let us know. If you're proposing specific changes, please 
provide some details -- don't just ask why some plugin isn't part of the list.

Thanks in advance,
Daniel

1: http://stats.jenkins-ci.org/jenkins-stats/svg/201508-top-plugins1000.svg
2: http://www.slideshare.net/IanSkerrett/eclipse-community-survey-2014 slide 24


On 29.09.2015, at 16:31, Tom Fennelly  wrote:

> Hi.
> 
> Falling out of the "Revisiting bundled plugins" thread, we now have ongoing 
> work in PR #1822 (Keith Zantow, Gus Reiber and myself) to unbundle plugins 
> from Jenkins core. As part of that, we are working on adding a Plugin Install 
> Wizard as a way of making it easy to configure the initial set of plugin in 
> Jenkins (for new or existing users).
> 
> Here's a short (rough) video showing the wizard: https://youtu.be/9pq5tHm4nWs
> 
> Keith did all the UI work with help from Gus, so kudos to them.
> 
> Also, please download and try he build from the CI server: jenkins.war.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> T.
> 
> -- 
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Re: Jenkins Plugin Install Wizard - check out the progress (video) ...

2015-09-29 Thread James Nord 
I think we should include description-setter plugin.  It's very useful when 
building parametrized jobs to see from the last 10 built which is the build 
you are interested in.

matrix-plugin seems to be in the wrong bucket, fits better with "Build 
Tools" which I have yet to come up for a better name even though I don;t 
think it works as is.

On Tuesday, September 29, 2015 at 8:32:59 PM UTC+1, Daniel Beck wrote:
>
> Hi everyone, 
>
> While it is a much desired feature to have an initial setup experience 
> that includes the ability to choose plugins, I'd rather not overwhelm 
> inexperienced users by exposing them to the full list of plugins from the 
> start. Forcing those with no experience to choose between 1000+ plugins 
> before they can even start using Jenkins is an impossible task. They may 
> not even be fully aware what plugins are for, and that Jenkins doesn't 
> really do much without any of them. Who points them to Folders, 
> Timestamper, or Build Timeout Plugin? Sure, they can always accept the 
> defaults, but what if they want to modify something that should be simple 
> enough, like add support for a less popular SCM like Mercurial? 
>
> A selection of known good plugins is a much better choice for this 
> particular setup dialog, and that's how it's currently implemented. The 
> initial selection of 'curated' (= available for selection) plugins was 
> provided to Gus and Tom by me (and tweaked by them after some early 
> reviewer feedback). I used the stats data[1] as a starting point and then 
> tried to define useful categories for them. Those aren't always perfect, 
> but should be close enough to work. The specific selections were made based 
> on the following criteria: 
>
> - Is the plugin useful, and does it actually work? (Mostly approximated by 
> install count) 
> - Does the plugin integrate well with Jenkins? Does it work well in 
> secured and distributed Jenkins? 
> - Are the features it provides useful to someone fairly new to Jenkins? 
> - Even if it's not popular, is it a reasonably common SCM? (SCM's are so 
> fundamental to successful Jenkins use that these shouldn't be as heavily 
> restricted as some of the other categories.) 
>
> I admit the initial choices are somewhat colored by personal preferences, 
> but note that these are simply that -- initial choices to unblock Tom, Gus 
> and Keith, and get the discussion going. I also requested the data be moved 
> into the update site, so we can review the choices periodically and update 
> to what we consider the best choices of plugins for new users. This may not 
> make it into the first version, but would then be added shortly afterwards. 
>
> Likewise, the plugins to be selected for installation by default are a 
> subset of the curated list. For the SCMs, I used the 2014 Eclipse survey[2] 
> to determine what's popular. Otherwise I selected a list of what I 
> considered most universally useful, things that have people wondering why 
> they're not core features. Again, despite the criteria above, there's 
> probably some personal bias in this selection, but I'm not sure there's a 
> much better way to provide a first draft. 
>
> So please take a look at the current choices and let us know what you 
> think: 
>
> 
> https://github.com/jenkinsci/jenkins/blob/unbundling-plugins/war/src/main/js/api/plugins.js
>  
>
> Do you think the criteria above aren't really useful? Do you have other 
> suggestions for the categories, the curated list of plugins, or the default 
> selection? Please let us know. If you're proposing specific changes, please 
> provide some details -- don't just ask why some plugin isn't part of the 
> list. 
>
> Thanks in advance, 
> Daniel 
>
> 1: 
> http://stats.jenkins-ci.org/jenkins-stats/svg/201508-top-plugins1000.svg 
> 2: http://www.slideshare.net/IanSkerrett/eclipse-community-survey-2014 
> slide 24 
>
>
> On 29.09.2015, at 16:31, Tom Fennelly  
> wrote: 
>
> > Hi. 
> > 
> > Falling out of the "Revisiting bundled plugins" thread, we now have 
> ongoing work in PR #1822 (Keith Zantow, Gus Reiber and myself) to unbundle 
> plugins from Jenkins core. As part of that, we are working on adding a 
> Plugin Install Wizard as a way of making it easy to configure the initial 
> set of plugin in Jenkins (for new or existing users). 
> > 
> > Here's a short (rough) video showing the wizard: 
> https://youtu.be/9pq5tHm4nWs 
> > 
> > Keith did all the UI work with help from Gus, so kudos to them. 
> > 
> > Also, please download and try he build from the CI server: jenkins.war. 
> > 
> > Regards, 
> > 
> > T. 
> > 
> > -- 
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups "Jenkins Developers" group. 
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
> an email to jenkinsci-de...@googlegroups.com . 
> > To view this discussion on the web visit 
>