Re: [josm-dev] JOSM donations?
Am 12.08.2011 17:28, schrieb Josh Doe: Agreed. People complain about the OSM wiki being out of date, but rarely update it or even report the problem. Perhaps we should have a notice on wiki's website, which articles might be too old and which might need an update. There are tons of pages, which haven't been visited or edited for ages... ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM donations?
I did not suggest there was an easy solution The only solution is slowing the pace of updates, and creating a team of volunteers that updates and approves the documentation ahead of a new release. But the price of that is obvious: a lot of work and less frequent updates and evolution of the software. But maybe the suggestion of having a history page in front of the help may do something. I imagine a contextual help function per item (it's more or less what we have now in the wiki) starting with a summary of what changed recently, and how it was done before. But again, I do not complain, and this is in no way a suggestion to modify the help system in such a way. I know what happens if I do so and burned my keyboard before ;)) Regards, Gert -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Dirk Stöcker [mailto:openstreet...@dstoecker.de] Verzonden: Thursday, August 11, 2011 11:39 PM Aan: josm-dev@openstreetmap.org Onderwerp: Re: [josm-dev] JOSM donations? On Thu, 11 Aug 2011, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote: But, if you happen to modify any function that you (or anyone else writing for this marvelous editor) may expect that may impact a lot of peoples edit life, a short drop-note would make many happy. Especially in this case it is nearly impossible to reach the relevant persons. JOSM's wiki is very open which also means even I as admin have very low chances the reach the autors. A lot of the registered email addresses fail or aren't read, so I don't even try anymore. Everything important is either announced in this list or on the JOSM start page. Alternately (but that is asking for a lot of programming effort), a context related help function, giving access to the history of a specific function (with history) would be a great enhancement. But that should not be considered a request from my side, being a simple leecher ;) JOSM's online help is a wiki. What is included there depends on the users. Descriptions what changed and how to handle this can be added anywhere. It's simple, but there must be people doing that. JOSM online help infrastructure is one of the best I know of. When there are only very few people who update these pages we developers can do anything against this. So many people know that JOSM documentation needs to be improved but only a few (less than 5 I would say) actually do anything. I myself am programmer. I don't write documentation when I'm not payed for it. Josm has a short cycle life, and maybe it's time to make that happen at a slower pace, so documentation will have less lag with the editor. Well, that's easy. Don't install newer versions. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM donations?
On Fri, 12 Aug 2011, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote: The only solution is slowing the pace of updates, and creating a team of volunteers that updates and approves the documentation ahead of a new release. This will never come. We are no commercial software. This is OpenSource. If there is a documention team, then we do everything to support them. But we don't adapt software development to this. We don't delay release for translators to finish, we wont delay for documentation. I imagine a contextual help function per item (it's more or less what we have now in the wiki) starting with a summary of what changed recently, and how it was done before. As said. It's a wiki. At every page can be added any relevant text. This also can be the information you suggest. It only must be added. There is no need to change anything for this. Simple to start: Go to http://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Translations#Statustable and pick one of the yellow fields in one of the languages you know and update it. Or add one of the grey ones. Or go to http://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/DevelopersGuide/HelpSystem/HelpTopicsList and choose a missing one. If you find outdated information either fix it or add a outdated= note at the translation macro. The only one I know caring for the base English help ATM is skyper. And da, ja and uk language translations are very active lately. But in the long time I'm software developer I heard many people complaining about missing documentation, but nobody of these every wrote a single paragraph to solve this situation. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM donations?
The problem with a wiki is that everyone can undo what you did. I remember trying to update the documentation for Potlatch once. Richard F. did not agree and undid my work the same day, because he as an author did not agree with my approach on help. True, it emphasized some aspects that were not the strong points of Potlatch, but it was meant to prevent users make silly mistakes. I lost my respect and appetite for Richard that same day. I appreciate the work of Dirk, but also witnessed his temper, and I do not even want to try to tempt him in something alike. Dirk, on this subject we both do what we do best. You program and I'll shut up. Gert -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Dirk Stöcker [mailto:openstreet...@dstoecker.de] Verzonden: vrijdag 12 augustus 2011 16:55 Aan: josm-dev@openstreetmap.org Onderwerp: Re: [josm-dev] JOSM donations? On Fri, 12 Aug 2011, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote: The only solution is slowing the pace of updates, and creating a team of volunteers that updates and approves the documentation ahead of a new release. This will never come. We are no commercial software. This is OpenSource. If there is a documention team, then we do everything to support them. But we don't adapt software development to this. We don't delay release for translators to finish, we wont delay for documentation. I imagine a contextual help function per item (it's more or less what we have now in the wiki) starting with a summary of what changed recently, and how it was done before. As said. It's a wiki. At every page can be added any relevant text. This also can be the information you suggest. It only must be added. There is no need to change anything for this. Simple to start: Go to http://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Translations#Statustable and pick one of the yellow fields in one of the languages you know and update it. Or add one of the grey ones. Or go to http://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/DevelopersGuide/HelpSystem/HelpTopicsList and choose a missing one. If you find outdated information either fix it or add a outdated= note at the translation macro. The only one I know caring for the base English help ATM is skyper. And da, ja and uk language translations are very active lately. But in the long time I'm software developer I heard many people complaining about missing documentation, but nobody of these every wrote a single paragraph to solve this situation. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM donations?
A new OSM member and already JOSM fan http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=13420. I'm sure there are a lot of them far outdating the disgruntled. Willi On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 1:44 PM, Dirk Stöcker openstreet...@dstoecker.dewrote: Sometimes I'm very discouraged to care for JOSM and I'm not sure if it is really worth the effort anymore. Each and every time something new is introduced or something is changed you get unacceptable comments and flames. Sometimes this can get too much even for me. On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Willi [wil...@gmx.de] wrote: Unfortunately it's a matter of fact that angry people tend to make much noise while happy people tend to be calm. I'm one of these happy people, who I assume are by far the majority. Being retired I've the time to enjoy this great tool almost every day for several hours. I like it more and more. And the many continuous improvements and enhancements allow me to contribute more and more data. Thanks a lot. Willi ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM donations?
JOSM is an excellent piece of software, and is difficult to improve. However, as a simple user only I am sometimes surprised too by changes(improvements) in functions and additions that I was not prepared to cope with at that particular moment. If you found out that just a few edits could be made before taking off to . (fill-in) and it don't work out, a call for help does not necessary help you out in time to do what you wanted. I know and understand that keeping track of all changes in a word of the day fashion is too much to ask from anyone, so we all have to live with a piece of software that evaluates faster then we can edit. But, if you happen to modify any function that you (or anyone else writing for this marvelous editor) may expect that may impact a lot of peoples edit life, a short drop-note would make many happy. Alternately (but that is asking for a lot of programming effort), a context related help function, giving access to the history of a specific function (with history) would be a great enhancement. But that should not be considered a request from my side, being a simple leecher ;) Josm has a short cycle life, and maybe it's time to make that happen at a slower pace, so documentation will have less lag with the editor. Gert -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Dirk Stöcker [mailto:openstreet...@dstoecker.de] Verzonden: woensdag 3 augustus 2011 10:41 Aan: josm-dev@openstreetmap.org Onderwerp: Re: [josm-dev] JOSM donations? On Tue, 2 Aug 2011, Frederik Ramm wrote: Not related to this thread on the German forum by any chance? http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=13269 Yes. I hope you draw some consolation from the fact that a large number of people actually tried to explain things to this guy. I know that most people aren't like this, but sometimes a few get to your nerves. It is not like he was not polite, but writing lengthy explaining mails and then receiving total ignorance at the other side is hard for me (I have more problems with ignorance than I have with flames and harsh language). The problem is, that after each change and each release I have to handle people of the you did silly changes, revert it and especially for minor things (In this case he simple needs to enter a valid URL to point to his file instead of uploading them to the wiki as attachement). Which does not mean such discussion are bad in any case. Some discussions in the past lead to much better implementations then the original design was. But as always this needs the will to understand both views and try to find a solution which are improvement for both sides involved. Sometimes I'm very discouraged to care for JOSM and I'm not sure if it is really worth the effort anymore. Each and every time something new is introduced or something is changed you get unacceptable comments and flames. Sometimes this can get too much even for me. In the thread I mentioned above, someone cautioned the complainant to be polite when writing to you because you were more important than 50 mappers. The mass of silently people who actually appreciate my work and that of our contributors are the only reason why I do it. Otherwise I would have dropped somewhere near release 700 when all this fuss started with the virtual nodes implementation. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM donations?
On Thu, 11 Aug 2011, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote: But, if you happen to modify any function that you (or anyone else writing for this marvelous editor) may expect that may impact a lot of peoples edit life, a short drop-note would make many happy. Especially in this case it is nearly impossible to reach the relevant persons. JOSM's wiki is very open which also means even I as admin have very low chances the reach the autors. A lot of the registered email addresses fail or aren't read, so I don't even try anymore. Everything important is either announced in this list or on the JOSM start page. Alternately (but that is asking for a lot of programming effort), a context related help function, giving access to the history of a specific function (with history) would be a great enhancement. But that should not be considered a request from my side, being a simple leecher ;) JOSM's online help is a wiki. What is included there depends on the users. Descriptions what changed and how to handle this can be added anywhere. It's simple, but there must be people doing that. JOSM online help infrastructure is one of the best I know of. When there are only very few people who update these pages we developers can do anything against this. So many people know that JOSM documentation needs to be improved but only a few (less than 5 I would say) actually do anything. I myself am programmer. I don't write documentation when I'm not payed for it. Josm has a short cycle life, and maybe it's time to make that happen at a slower pace, so documentation will have less lag with the editor. Well, that's easy. Don't install newer versions. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM donations?
On Tue, 2 Aug 2011, Frederik Ramm wrote: Not related to this thread on the German forum by any chance? http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=13269 Yes. I hope you draw some consolation from the fact that a large number of people actually tried to explain things to this guy. I know that most people aren't like this, but sometimes a few get to your nerves. It is not like he was not polite, but writing lengthy explaining mails and then receiving total ignorance at the other side is hard for me (I have more problems with ignorance than I have with flames and harsh language). The problem is, that after each change and each release I have to handle people of the you did silly changes, revert it and especially for minor things (In this case he simple needs to enter a valid URL to point to his file instead of uploading them to the wiki as attachement). Which does not mean such discussion are bad in any case. Some discussions in the past lead to much better implementations then the original design was. But as always this needs the will to understand both views and try to find a solution which are improvement for both sides involved. Sometimes I'm very discouraged to care for JOSM and I'm not sure if it is really worth the effort anymore. Each and every time something new is introduced or something is changed you get unacceptable comments and flames. Sometimes this can get too much even for me. In the thread I mentioned above, someone cautioned the complainant to be polite when writing to you because you were more important than 50 mappers. The mass of silently people who actually appreciate my work and that of our contributors are the only reason why I do it. Otherwise I would have dropped somewhere near release 700 when all this fuss started with the virtual nodes implementation. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM donations?
On 02.08.2011 20:45, Josh Doe: Thank you for your hard work! +10 just chiming in here with a big thank you to the whole JOSM team. Besides the Happy SysAdmin day we would need a Thank your OSS contributor day. I can only forward the good experience I'm sharing when recommending JOSM to OpenStreetMap contributors from all over the world. After a short (and constantly becoming shorter) setup and training period they can achieve better contributions in shorter time than with the editor they used before ;) Keep it up! Claudius ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM donations?
+3 For - better rendering with MapCSS style inclusion - JOSM wiki styles and selection of styles from preference menu - JOSM wiki presets and selection of presets from preference menu Pierre 66.gif___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM donations?
Hello, after careful considerations I drop that idea completely. Although I still think it is a good idea I'm not willing to care for the resulting trouble to be expected. Beside the reaction from Karl and missing answers from Frederik also another discussion with the author of NewTags preset is the reason. He does not like the new possibilities the wiki style editing of presets offers - which I can accept even if I don't understand it (NOTE: all attachements to the Presets page have been converted to wiki style, external links stay as they are). So instead of following my advice to either use that new collaborative system or simply add a link to the file hosted on his page and me deleting the wiki we had a lengthy discussion with the result that he states due to security reasons it is no longer possible to offer that through JOSM presets list. Well, this is total nonsense. Sometimes I'm very discouraged to care for JOSM and I'm not sure if it is really worth the effort anymore. Each and every time something new is introduced or something is changed you get unacceptable comments and flames. Sometimes this can get too much even for me. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM donations?
On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 1:44 PM, Dirk Stöcker openstreet...@dstoecker.dewrote: Sometimes I'm very discouraged to care for JOSM and I'm not sure if it is really worth the effort anymore. Each and every time something new is introduced or something is changed you get unacceptable comments and flames. Sometimes this can get too much even for me. Unfortunately this always happens, especially with popular software. Let me just say that I am very thankful for the effort you (and others) put into JOSM, as it is a very well designed piece of software that has made mapping OSM so much easier and better. Thank you for your hard work! -Josh ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM donations?
On 8/2/11 2:45 PM, Josh Doe wrote: On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 1:44 PM, Dirk Stöckeropenstreet...@dstoecker.dewrote: Sometimes I'm very discouraged to care for JOSM and I'm not sure if it is really worth the effort anymore. Each and every time something new is introduced or something is changed you get unacceptable comments and flames. Sometimes this can get too much even for me. Unfortunately this always happens, especially with popular software. Let me just say that I am very thankful for the effort you (and others) put into JOSM, as it is a very well designed piece of software that has made mapping OSM so much easier and better. yes, thanks. JOSM is my preferred editor for OSM by a very substantial margin. please keep up the good work. richard ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM donations?
On Mon, 1 Aug 2011, Frederik Ramm wrote: Things for which possible donations could be used: * awards for implementing enhancements, fixing bugs I'm skeptical of such bounties. They haven't worked for OSM in the past and they seldom work for any open source project (why work for free when you can get money). I didn't think about much money here. Only more like a thank's well done in the range of 30-50 EUR. It's meant more like a little encouragement in hope that maybe some of the authors feel like staying with JOSM later as well. Maybe instead of money we make JOSM coffee cups or T-shirts with I did improve JOSM and send them. I also doubt that a bounty system as you call it will work. Also, I expect there to be disagreement over which bits are worth a bounty and which aren't. Probably. But I think for small money the disagreement will not be that much. * awards for improving translations We're an open source project. Translations need to be done by the people who want to use them. If those who would like JOSM in Swahili cannot muster the manpower to produce it then no money in the world will help - it's just like with data imports, you might be able to improve things for a moment by paying someone, but every change that is made will require new effort, and that only works if there are people who care. Here I disagree. Translation issue is a bit more difficult. Contrary to programming software translating is a stupid task which nevertheless needs a lot of experience. A little encouragement may help here. Only very few translators really maintain translation later, so a pay per job improves a translation and result is not different from volunteers. * better SSL certificate Another project has received funding from FOSSGIS for that. I believe we could too, or we could ask OSMF. I already asked FOSSGIS if you remember. Currently my plan would be to implement Flattr and a PayPal donation button (if possible not to prominently on every page, otherwise only on startup page). I see an accountability issue. One person would have to be the account holder for this and nobody would know how much money arrives in that account. Even if the account were handled by someone I trust, there would be enough others who would not trust that person and express suspicion. Yes true. That's why I said it is in any way only for small amounts. E.g. in Germany it would be possible to handle max. 410 EUR a year for a single person. There are always People who can't be satisfied and actually I don't care much about them. Actually I myself think it is may be a good idea to have a bit of own money for josm. When I developed Shareware in the past it was always an encouragement to me when someone actually registered the software and payed the fee. I would take the job of managing that money when necessary, but actually I fear that I may get tax troubles when I'm not very carefully. So e.g. FOSSGIS as donation collector would be fine. But there should be a possibility to mark the money as for JOSM and also to have a chance for us to choose a possibility to spend that money. Currently if FOSSGIS gets money it is FOSSGIS money and we would come as petitioner. I don't like this (see last section below). And own server - you know what I think about JOSM being more and more a client to some JOSM server somewhere. I'd like to get rid of the server instead of building up even more capacity which will doubtless be filled by you with lots of clever Python contraptions that nobody else can maintain. I know, but nevertheless I think you are wrong here. And regarding maintaining I already told you, that it is relatively good documented and easy to do (much easier than at the time when I started and compared to this time it is much more powerful). Please have a look before complaining again. I don't know if you followed admin discussion recently, but TagWatch has constant attacks from FOSSGIS admins and JOSM hosting is also called an accident and we have resource trouble with the tile server from time to time. I simply don't trust FOSSGIS in this topic currently. Instead of collect money then see how we spend it, I'd suggest define what we want, find out what it costs, then ask people to donate to OSM/FOSSGIS for that specific cause. - If a cause can be found that is worth spending money on, and I'm not convinced yet. Which is a good approach for larger issues, but for 10 EUR there and 20 EUR there it is much to much overhead to discuss every issue multiple days. The result simply means it is not done, as I already spend enough time for JOSM - I wont spend time discussing politics again and again for such small amounts. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM donations?
I read you opinion, I accept it, I don't necessarily agree with it, but I won't discuss it on the list. 2011/8/1 Dirk Stöcker openstreet...@dstoecker.de On Mon, 1 Aug 2011, Paul Hartmann wrote: after this is mainly flaming against me and no longer private I may answer. And own server - you know what I think about JOSM being more and more a client to some JOSM server somewhere. I'd like to get rid of the server instead of building up even more capacity which will doubtless be filled by you with lots of clever Python contraptions that nobody else can maintain. Exactly, for god's sake, don't put stoeckr in a position where he can hack up even more Perl spagetti, which is closed source for security reasons. I still don't know what your problem is Karl. You have been a valuably contributor in the past but as soon as not everything went the way you wanted it, you went mad. It is an accident this text got to the mailing list, but actually I find it rather strange, that you send flames to Paul, but never had the courage to contact me. Instead of collect money then see how we spend it, I'd suggest define what we want, find out what it costs, then ask people to donate to OSM/FOSSGIS for that specific cause. - If a cause can be found that is worth spending money on, and I'm not convinced yet. Exactly, there is clearly potential for payed work from which both a potential sponsor and the community benefits, without the community to be compromised. It is possible, we've all done this in the past, but I very much doubt that it would be possible again, if stoeckr was involved Well, what do you refer to? I only know one time when we had something like this in the past and this is turnrestrictions plugin. And actually this is an example which shows the opposite: The author got money for it, but he no longer cares about. The plugin was abandoned shortly after it has been created. Nobody does necessary bug fixes ATM. So this is an argument for Frederik, who says that bounties wont work. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) __**_ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/josm-devhttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] JOSM donations?
Hi, Dirk Stöcker wrote: Things for which possible donations could be used: * awards for implementing enhancements, fixing bugs I'm skeptical of such bounties. They haven't worked for OSM in the past and they seldom work for any open source project (why work for free when you can get money). Also, I expect there to be disagreement over which bits are worth a bounty and which aren't. * awards for improving translations We're an open source project. Translations need to be done by the people who want to use them. If those who would like JOSM in Swahili cannot muster the manpower to produce it then no money in the world will help - it's just like with data imports, you might be able to improve things for a moment by paying someone, but every change that is made will require new effort, and that only works if there are people who care. * better SSL certificate Another project has received funding from FOSSGIS for that. I believe we could too, or we could ask OSMF. Currently my plan would be to implement Flattr and a PayPal donation button (if possible not to prominently on every page, otherwise only on startup page). I see an accountability issue. One person would have to be the account holder for this and nobody would know how much money arrives in that account. Even if the account were handled by someone I trust, there would be enough others who would not trust that person and express suspicion. And own server - you know what I think about JOSM being more and more a client to some JOSM server somewhere. I'd like to get rid of the server instead of building up even more capacity which will doubtless be filled by you with lots of clever Python contraptions that nobody else can maintain. Instead of collect money then see how we spend it, I'd suggest define what we want, find out what it costs, then ask people to donate to OSM/FOSSGIS for that specific cause. - If a cause can be found that is worth spending money on, and I'm not convinced yet. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
