[jQuery] Re: asp.net and jquery - reactions to this letter
Perhaps as jQuery gets incorporated into VS, more resources specifically for ASP.net + jQuery will appear, and that will help with the 'mindset' issue that George speaks of. I appreciate all of these comments On Nov 19, 1:48 pm, Berke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have been the sole developer for the last 9 months on a site that was using ASP.Net Web Forms, Component Art's Controls when I inherited it since then I have added many of the controls from their Ajax toolkit and within the last month have started using jquery. So far I have had zero clashes, and now have a wide variety of tools to solve the problems, I'm faced. I'm also starting to go back and clean out my older pre jquery javascript. I've also had success using jquery to call wcf services page methods which a lot of success (there were some blog posts out there but I don't have the links anymore). I am using all of these technologies together in some of my more complex pages. On Nov 19, 12:34 pm, George Adamson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm very surprised by his comments. We always rely on jQuery to get grips with the monster that is ASP.Net+AJAX.Net, regardless of project size. jQuery's extraordiary convenience requires a slightly different mindset from conventional .net languages (one that I miss on the server side!) so perhaps the author could use some help to learn more about it. On Nov 18, 9:52 pm, rolfsf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: is it truly a monster? http://reddevnews.com/response/response.aspx?rdnid=1189-Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -
[jQuery] Re: asp.net and jquery - reactions to this letter
He does like to complain, but he's a very good guy and a very good programmer. I sincerely hope he joins this conversation and that some of these comments, ideas, and folks might coax him back for a second look - I've never had the depth of knowledge (of either javascript, jquery or .net) to assist him - and I know he's never touched on jQuery's best stuff. It's been good for me, anyway, to hear from so many ASP.net developers who are using it regularly. On Nov 19, 8:33 pm, ajpiano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: sounds like someone wants to complain about his lack of a clue rather than get one. --adam
[jQuery] Re: asp.net and jquery - reactions to this letter
Personally I find debugging jQuery a snap -- even on my current project which is in excess of 25,000 lines of js code. I will say that I stay away from the ASP.NET ajax system completely, all of my hooks between jQuery and .NET are my own and I have had no problems. The original AJAX.NET library struck me as complex and unwieldy so I stayed away from it. MS now says they're going to use jQuery in the MVC platform and ship it with VS. http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2008/09/28/jquery-and-microsoft.aspx JK -Original Message- From: jquery-en@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ricardobeat Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 11:20 PM To: jQuery (English) Subject: [jQuery] Re: asp.net and jquery - reactions to this letter Judging by this post by the sender of the letter I don't think you should take that argument seriously: http://www.nabble.com/Do-I-really-need-to-do-an-%27eval%27-in-JQuery--td9483 409s27240.html I don't know IntelliSense, but debugging jQuery with firebug is really easy. And there's no reason to check the object's methods when you know they will always be the same... - ricardo On Nov 18, 8:05 pm, Brian Cummiskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: rolfsf wrote: A friend had sent this rant in to microsoft, regarding jquery, which is published on their developer site. Not being an asp.net developer, I don't know what to make of his points. I'd be interested to hear from some asp.net developers who have embraced jquery - is it truly a monster? http://reddevnews.com/response/response.aspx?rdnid=1189 Thanks! IMO, .net is the monster, not jQuery. -Brian, an ASP code for a living
[jQuery] Re: asp.net and jquery - reactions to this letter
On Nov 18, 11:52 pm, rolfsf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A friend had sent this rant in to microsoft, regarding jquery, which is published on their developer site. Not being an asp.net developer, I don't know what to make of his points. I'd be interested to hear from some asp.net developers who have embraced jquery - is it truly a monster? http://reddevnews.com/response/response.aspx?rdnid=1189 Thanks! Working on a pretty heavy application with .NET and jQuery - no problems at all. Debugging with firebug and avoiding all kind of javascript that comes from MS. I really can't get that rant...
[jQuery] Re: asp.net and jquery - reactions to this letter
I'd also disagree with these. I'm developing an application using jQuery with a asp.net developer, both of us having no problems at all. Stamen Georgiev wrote: On Nov 18, 11:52 pm, rolfsf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A friend had sent this rant in to microsoft, regarding jquery, which is published on their developer site. Not being an asp.net developer, I don't know what to make of his points. I'd be interested to hear from some asp.net developers who have embraced jquery - is it truly a monster? http://reddevnews.com/response/response.aspx?rdnid=1189 Thanks! Working on a pretty heavy application with .NET and jQuery - no problems at all. Debugging with firebug and avoiding all kind of javascript that comes from MS. I really can't get that rant...
[jQuery] Re: asp.net and jquery - reactions to this letter
I'm very surprised by his comments. We always rely on jQuery to get grips with the monster that is ASP.Net+AJAX.Net, regardless of project size. jQuery's extraordiary convenience requires a slightly different mindset from conventional .net languages (one that I miss on the server side!) so perhaps the author could use some help to learn more about it. On Nov 18, 9:52 pm, rolfsf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: is it truly a monster? http://reddevnews.com/response/response.aspx?rdnid=1189
[jQuery] Re: asp.net and jquery - reactions to this letter
I have been the sole developer for the last 9 months on a site that was using ASP.Net Web Forms, Component Art's Controls when I inherited it since then I have added many of the controls from their Ajax toolkit and within the last month have started using jquery. So far I have had zero clashes, and now have a wide variety of tools to solve the problems, I'm faced. I'm also starting to go back and clean out my older pre jquery javascript. I've also had success using jquery to call wcf services page methods which a lot of success (there were some blog posts out there but I don't have the links anymore). I am using all of these technologies together in some of my more complex pages. On Nov 19, 12:34 pm, George Adamson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm very surprised by his comments. We always rely on jQuery to get grips with the monster that is ASP.Net+AJAX.Net, regardless of project size. jQuery's extraordiary convenience requires a slightly different mindset from conventional .net languages (one that I miss on the server side!) so perhaps the author could use some help to learn more about it. On Nov 18, 9:52 pm, rolfsf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: is it truly a monster? http://reddevnews.com/response/response.aspx?rdnid=1189- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -
[jQuery] Re: asp.net and jquery - reactions to this letter
sounds like someone wants to complain about his lack of a clue rather than get one. --adam On Nov 19, 4:48 pm, Berke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have been the sole developer for the last 9 months on a site that was using ASP.Net Web Forms, Component Art's Controls when I inherited it since then I have added many of the controls from their Ajax toolkit and within the last month have started using jquery. So far I have had zero clashes, and now have a wide variety of tools to solve the problems, I'm faced. I'm also starting to go back and clean out my older pre jquery javascript. I've also had success using jquery to call wcf services page methods which a lot of success (there were some blog posts out there but I don't have the links anymore). I am using all of these technologies together in some of my more complex pages. On Nov 19, 12:34 pm, George Adamson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm very surprised by his comments. We always rely on jQuery to get grips with the monster that is ASP.Net+AJAX.Net, regardless of project size. jQuery's extraordiary convenience requires a slightly different mindset from conventional .net languages (one that I miss on the server side!) so perhaps the author could use some help to learn more about it. On Nov 18, 9:52 pm, rolfsf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: is it truly a monster? http://reddevnews.com/response/response.aspx?rdnid=1189-Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -
[jQuery] Re: asp.net and jquery - reactions to this letter
Probably any complaints would only come from users of the WebForms model, not asp.net MVC or Monorail. The debugging argument just points to a need for a better testing setup...unit tests maybe?
[jQuery] Re: asp.net and jquery - reactions to this letter
I can see some of his points, and there are some clashes with the asp.net ajax toolkit - but all the problems I've had have been with microsoft's javascript, not jQuery. the ajax toolkit is so hard wired into asp.net sometimes, it's hard to replace it with a better written and better looking jQuery alternative. On Nov 18, 3:52 pm, rolfsf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A friend had sent this rant in to microsoft, regarding jquery, which is published on their developer site. Not being an asp.net developer, I don't know what to make of his points. I'd be interested to hear from some asp.net developers who have embraced jquery - is it truly a monster? http://reddevnews.com/response/response.aspx?rdnid=1189 Thanks!
[jQuery] Re: asp.net and jquery - reactions to this letter
mm Ive notices some clashes with asp.net but there is plenty info around ( from some of the top .net guys that realy take Jquery and asp.net combo to the edge.) how to make it deal wit this much better. Problem is that a lot of the ajax is hardwired into .net and therefore jquery alternatives take a bit more time but after that its much cleaner and easier to modify. He does have a point wit the debugging but I dont see that as such a big point, if you combine the .net debugging and firebug you can pretty much almost pinpoint your errors. If you are not realy stuck too much into the .net toolkit and dare to step outside of the bounds a bit Jquery in teh end will only save time On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 10:52 PM, rolfsf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A friend had sent this rant in to microsoft, regarding jquery, which is published on their developer site. Not being an asp.net developer, I don't know what to make of his points. I'd be interested to hear from some asp.net developers who have embraced jquery - is it truly a monster? http://reddevnews.com/response/response.aspx?rdnid=1189 Thanks! -- Armand Datema CTO SchwingSoft
[jQuery] Re: asp.net and jquery - reactions to this letter
rolfsf wrote: A friend had sent this rant in to microsoft, regarding jquery, which is published on their developer site. Not being an asp.net developer, I don't know what to make of his points. I'd be interested to hear from some asp.net developers who have embraced jquery - is it truly a monster? http://reddevnews.com/response/response.aspx?rdnid=1189 Thanks! IMO, .net is the monster, not jQuery. -Brian, an ASP code for a living
[jQuery] Re: asp.net and jquery - reactions to this letter
Are any of these clashes with asp.net that you and c.barr refer to anything that could be remedied by the jQuery Core team if they know about it? Or are these due to deeper structural philosophies that are unlikely to be resolved any time soon? On Nov 18, 2:27 pm, Armand Datema [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: mm Ive notices some clashes with asp.net but there is plenty info around ( from some of the top .net guys that realy take Jquery and asp.net combo to the edge.) how to make it deal wit this much better. Problem is that a lot of the ajax is hardwired into .net and therefore jquery alternatives take a bit more time but after that its much cleaner and easier to modify. He does have a point wit the debugging but I dont see that as such a big point, if you combine the .net debugging and firebug you can pretty much almost pinpoint your errors. If you are not realy stuck too much into the .net toolkit and dare to step outside of the bounds a bit Jquery in teh end will only save time On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 10:52 PM, rolfsf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A friend had sent this rant in to microsoft, regarding jquery, which is published on their developer site. Not being an asp.net developer, I don't know what to make of his points. I'd be interested to hear from some asp.net developers who have embraced jquery - is it truly a monster? http://reddevnews.com/response/response.aspx?rdnid=1189 Thanks! -- Armand Datema CTO SchwingSoft
[jQuery] Re: asp.net and jquery - reactions to this letter
We've done a number of asp.net projects that use jQuery heavily. We do not use the MS Ajax stuff, because it's not vendor neutral. Many of our apps use C# web services and js-based widgets rendered client-side via Trimpath _javascript_ Templates, with some tie-ins to the asp.net security model. The main hurdles we've found have been relatively easy to workaround and have nothing to do with jquery: 1. asp.net forms by default render the whole page inside a single form, which means we can't nest forms easily unless we override the default asp.net forms behavior, which then introduces some other side-effects. In general, we've been able to work around this limitation pretty easily. 2. asp.net controls render with id's that asp.net creates (so that nested objects can be managed by asp.net's intrernal logic). Because of that, we add a sprinkle of code sometimes that passes the id's of the controls we want to touch into a js init function, then assign those values to our js vars inside our js libraries. That said, we only have to do that when we want the js to be aware of some controls rendered by asp.net. Firebug's our primary js debugging tool and has worked out fine. Sometimes we use the MS script debugger, but only because there's no firebug in IE. - Jack rolfsf wrote: Are any of these clashes with asp.net that you and c.barr refer to anything that could be remedied by the jQuery Core team if they know about it? Or are these due to deeper structural philosophies that are unlikely to be resolved any time soon? On Nov 18, 2:27pm, "Armand Datema" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: mm Ive notices some clashes with asp.net but there is plenty info around ( from some of the top .net guys that realy take Jquery and asp.net combo to the edge.) how to make it deal wit this much better. Problem is that a lot of the ajax is hardwired into .net and therefore jquery alternatives take a bit more time but after that its much cleaner and easier to modify. He does have a point wit the debugging but I dont see that as such a big point, if you combine the .net debugging and firebug you can pretty much almost pinpoint your errors. If you are not realy stuck too much into the .net toolkit and dare to step outside of the bounds a bit Jquery in teh end will only save time On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 10:52 PM, rolfsf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A friend had sent this rant in to microsoft, regarding jquery, which is published on their developer site. Not being an asp.net developer, I don't know what to make of his points. I'd be interested to hear from some asp.net developers who have embraced jquery - is it truly a monster? http://reddevnews.com/response/response.aspx?rdnid=1189 Thanks! -- Armand Datema CTO SchwingSoft
[jQuery] Re: asp.net and jquery - reactions to this letter
Thanks Jack Are there any asp.net + jquery blogs/resources/developer links that are particularly good? It's difficult for me to gauge how good (clean code, solid principles, brilliant thinking) some of the asp.net oriented jquery postings on the web are as I don't know it. Any recommendations I can pass on? - rolfsf On Nov 18, 3:52 pm, Jack Killpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We've done a number of asp.net projects that use jQuery heavily. We do not use the MS Ajax stuff, because it's not vendor neutral. Many of our apps use C# web services and js-based widgets rendered client-side via Trimpath javascript Templates, with some tie-ins to the asp.net security model. The main hurdles we've found have been relatively easy to workaround and have nothing to do with jquery: 1. asp.net forms by default render the whole page inside a single form, which means we can't nest forms easily unless we override the default asp.net forms behavior, which then introduces some other side-effects. In general, we've been able to work around this limitation pretty easily. 2. asp.net controls render with id's that asp.net creates (so that nested objects can be managed by asp.net's intrernal logic). Because of that, we add a sprinkle of code sometimes that passes the id's of the controls we want to touch into a js init function, then assign those values to our js vars inside our js libraries. That said, we only have to do that when we want the js to be aware of some controls rendered by asp.net. Firebug's our primary js debugging tool and has worked out fine. Sometimes we use the MS script debugger, but only because there's no firebug in IE. - Jack rolfsf wrote:Are any of these clashes with asp.net that you and c.barr refer to anything that could be remedied by the jQuery Core team if they know about it? Or are these due to deeper structural philosophies that are unlikely to be resolved any time soon? On Nov 18, 2:27 pm, Armand Datema[EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:mm Ive notices some clashes with asp.net but there is plenty info around ( from some of the top .net guys that realy take Jquery and asp.net combo to the edge.) how to make it deal wit this much better. Problem is that a lot of the ajax is hardwired into .net and therefore jquery alternatives take a bit more time but after that its much cleaner and easier to modify. He does have a point wit the debugging but I dont see that as such a big point, if you combine the .net debugging and firebug you can pretty much almost pinpoint your errors. If you are not realy stuck too much into the .net toolkit and dare to step outside of the bounds a bit Jquery in teh end will only save time On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 10:52 PM, rolfsf[EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:A friend had sent this rant in to microsoft, regarding jquery, which is published on their developer site. Not being an asp.net developer, I don't know what to make of his points. I'd be interested to hear from some asp.net developers who have embraced jquery - is it truly a monster?http://reddevnews.com/response/response.aspx?rdnid=1189Thanks!-- Armand Datema CTO SchwingSoft
[jQuery] Re: asp.net and jquery - reactions to this letter
I wish I had some specific developer's blogs/resources to give you, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. However, for the last couple of years, all my software development has been C#/SQL backend with jQuery frontend, and it's been a perfect marriage as far as I'm concerned. If you have any specific questions I'd be happy to answer. JK -Original Message- From: jquery-en@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of rolfsf Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 8:52 PM To: jQuery (English) Subject: [jQuery] Re: asp.net and jquery - reactions to this letter Thanks Jack Are there any asp.net + jquery blogs/resources/developer links that are particularly good? It's difficult for me to gauge how good (clean code, solid principles, brilliant thinking) some of the asp.net oriented jquery postings on the web are as I don't know it. Any recommendations I can pass on? - rolfsf On Nov 18, 3:52 pm, Jack Killpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We've done a number of asp.net projects that use jQuery heavily. We do not use the MS Ajax stuff, because it's not vendor neutral. Many of our apps use C# web services and js-based widgets rendered client-side via Trimpath javascript Templates, with some tie-ins to the asp.net security model. The main hurdles we've found have been relatively easy to workaround and have nothing to do with jquery: 1. asp.net forms by default render the whole page inside a single form, which means we can't nest forms easily unless we override the default asp.net forms behavior, which then introduces some other side-effects. In general, we've been able to work around this limitation pretty easily. 2. asp.net controls render with id's that asp.net creates (so that nested objects can be managed by asp.net's intrernal logic). Because of that, we add a sprinkle of code sometimes that passes the id's of the controls we want to touch into a js init function, then assign those values to our js vars inside our js libraries. That said, we only have to do that when we want the js to be aware of some controls rendered by asp.net. Firebug's our primary js debugging tool and has worked out fine. Sometimes we use the MS script debugger, but only because there's no firebug in IE. - Jack rolfsf wrote:Are any of these clashes with asp.net that you and c.barr refer to anything that could be remedied by the jQuery Core team if they know about it? Or are these due to deeper structural philosophies that are unlikely to be resolved any time soon? On Nov 18, 2:27 pm, Armand Datema[EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:mm Ive notices some clashes with asp.net but there is plenty info around ( from some of the top .net guys that realy take Jquery and asp.net combo to the edge.) how to make it deal wit this much better. Problem is that a lot of the ajax is hardwired into .net and therefore jquery alternatives take a bit more time but after that its much cleaner and easier to modify. He does have a point wit the debugging but I dont see that as such a big point, if you combine the .net debugging and firebug you can pretty much almost pinpoint your errors. If you are not realy stuck too much into the .net toolkit and dare to step outside of the bounds a bit Jquery in teh end will only save time On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 10:52 PM, rolfsf[EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:A friend had sent this rant in to microsoft, regarding jquery, which is published on their developer site. Not being an asp.net developer, I don't know what to make of his points. I'd be interested to hear from some asp.net developers who have embraced jquery - is it truly a monster?http://reddevnews.com/response/response.aspx?rdnid=1189Thanks!-- Armand Datema CTO SchwingSoft
[jQuery] Re: asp.net and jquery - reactions to this letter
Judging by this post by the sender of the letter I don't think you should take that argument seriously: http://www.nabble.com/Do-I-really-need-to-do-an-%27eval%27-in-JQuery--td9483409s27240.html I don't know IntelliSense, but debugging jQuery with firebug is really easy. And there's no reason to check the object's methods when you know they will always be the same... - ricardo On Nov 18, 8:05 pm, Brian Cummiskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: rolfsf wrote: A friend had sent this rant in to microsoft, regarding jquery, which is published on their developer site. Not being an asp.net developer, I don't know what to make of his points. I'd be interested to hear from some asp.net developers who have embraced jquery - is it truly a monster? http://reddevnews.com/response/response.aspx?rdnid=1189 Thanks! IMO, .net is the monster, not jQuery. -Brian, an ASP code for a living
