Re: [jug-discussion] professional degree programs
In terms of interviewing a college degree tells me alot more about commitment level and staying power than it does about knowledge level. Craig I'm in the same boat as you (but going on 15 years as a SE). I really liked the WSU program but now that I'm consulting and don't have tuition reimbursement the Out of State tuition is kind of high. U of P os a good option but it could be more challenging to get into a traditional gradschool layer if you choose to go that route. Just my $.02 Jt Sent from my iPhone On Aug 23, 2007, at 9:35 PM, Bill Barr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Craig, Check out University of Maryland University College (www.umuc.edu). It's a full participant in the UMD system, they have several on-line IT/IS degrees and their credit transfer policy is very liberal plus they also offer co-op and a knowledge-for-credit transfer option. In practice I have found that all of the best developers I have hired over the years, regardless of which school they went to and how many degrees they had, all started programming before they could legally drive a car. As a hiring manager, I look at it this way. In a 4-year degree, only about half of that time is focused on the major. In a 2 year degree from a tech college, 100% is focused on the major. That leaves 2 extra years for real-world experience. I just say that for some added perspective; school only provides about 2 years of job-relevant instruction. Craig Barber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey All, I'm going on the 3rd year of my full-time career in software development now. Probably not unlike many others out there I was enticed away from completing my undergraduate degree for full-time work at a software development startup, and now Im looking into finishing up my degree. Unfortunately I've discovered that the UofA's CS program isn't really practical for professionals such as myself, as most of their CS courses are only offered during core business hours. I was wondering if any of you out there have experience and/or opinions on the quality of some of the programs out there tailored for professionals. For example, I've been researching the University of Phoenix. They have an online program which offers a BS tailored for software engineering: http://www.phoenix.edu/ online_and_campus_programs/degree_programs/ degree_programs_description.aspx?progversion=5locationid=-1 For you employers and/or educators out there: Which programs do you consider reputable and of good quality? Which programs would you recommend staying away from? How do you measure up a potential employee who has a degree from a program like this compared to a traditional university? Any feedback is welcome. -Craig Barber - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Bill Barr Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids.
Re: [jug-discussion] professional degree programs
Craig, As someone who has hired several people with and without degrees, and with degrees from various institutions I am going to confess that I am biased toward candidates with a degree, and with a degree from 4 year insititutions over a degree from a professional degree program. My view is that a degree from a university confers upon the bearer a bit more than simply mastery of their chosen subject. It suggests to me that the person has received a better rounded education than someone who has a degree focused only on building software skills. At most universities a graduate can be expected to have had experience juggling a diverse set of classes (and therefore responsibilities/schedules), can be expected to have completed courses that stress clear and concise written and verbal communication and can be expected to have learned research skills. These experiences provide some assurance that the individual is able to handle complex assignments and professional environments with some facility. Does this mean someone with a University of Phoenix degree lacks these qualities? Heck no! I've met high school students - young people with no degree whatsoever - that display responsibility and maturity well beyond that of many IT professionals. And a University of Phoenix degree does signal that one has mastery of technical concepts. But as a hiring manager sorting through a stack of resumes I don't have the pleasure nor the opportunity to get to know each and every candidate. I need some assurance that the applicant can not only implement a linked list, but that they can communicate well and can be trusted to manage tasks that involve ambiguity or require a bit of self-direction. I'm looking for safe bets and signals that have paid off in the past so that I can filter the stack down to a reasonable set to call for interviews. So if I see a University of Phoenix degree I'm certainly going to be looking for something else on a resume that makes the candidate stand out. I will scrutinize the application looking for things that I would simply think of as built in to a B.S. from a four-year university. Either their professional experience is so related to the position that the candidate stands out, or the work history shows multiple examples of success surviving and managing responsibility in a professional environment, or the candidate has a four year degree in an unrelated field. So I guess the long and the short of it is that, like others have written, I absolutely believe there are talented folks with great technical skill out there with varying accreditation and even some with none whatsoever. One does not need a degree nor a degree from a particular institution to have a successful career in software. But the reality of the situation is that a university degree will (fairly or not) open more doors. It holds more weight in my evaluation as, I believe, it does in the evaluation of many others. Substituted by a professional program certificate I believe many employers will want a demonstration of your professional maturity or will want to see something on your resume that makes you uniquely qualified for their position. And that's my $0.02, Duffy On Thu, 23 Aug 2007, Craig Barber wrote: Hey All, I'm going on the 3rd year of my full-time career in software development now. Probably not unlike many others out there I was enticed away from completing my undergraduate degree for full-time work at a software development startup, and now Im looking into finishing up my degree. Unfortunately I've discovered that the UofA's CS program isn't really practical for professionals such as myself, as most of their CS courses are only offered during core business hours. I was wondering if any of you out there have experience and/or opinions on the quality of some of the programs out there tailored for professionals. For example, I've been researching the University of Phoenix. They have an online program which offers a BS tailored for software engineering: http://www.phoenix.edu/online_and_campus_programs/degree_programs/degree_programs_description.aspx?progversion=5locationid=-1 For you employers and/or educators out there: Which programs do you consider reputable and of good quality? Which programs would you recommend staying away from? How do you measure up a potential employee who has a degree from a program like this compared to a traditional university? Any feedback is welcome. -Craig Barber - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] professional degree programs
I'll throw in my .02 as I'm in the boat that you're in now. I left college a long time ago (about 14 years to be exact), for a variety of reasons, but the primary was I didn't really know what I wanted to get my degree in. 2 years ago I made the conscious decision that it was time to finish my degree once and for all and I got the opportunity to work at the UofA. Of course one of the nice about working at the U is that you get a nice tuition break, and your employer (most of the departments) can be flexible with your schedule so you can actually go to class. What I do find to be inflexible is some of the teachers, they don't care that you work full-time and sometimes may have to travel (not all teachers just some) and what they really don't realize is that someone in my position is going to be a better student, because I want to be there. Anyways, kindof got of the track there. Here are some of the things that I like about 4 year programs (and actually attending a real class): - I learn other stuff that I might not have gotten an opportunity to learn (like Japanese literature) - This helps me approach problems from different points of view - I tend to get more out of my CS classes now that I have work experience to back that up - I get to interact with people from different backgrounds on a regular basis Bottom line, I do think that it is good to get a degree (for many of the reasons listed in other responses), but you should do it because you want to do it, not because you should get a degree. By the way I've met many people who got into programming who were never in CS and are some of the best programmers I've ever worked with. And I've met people with CS degrees who I wouldn't let anywhere near a project I'm working on. Just my .02 -warner On Aug 23, 2007, at 6:32 PM, Craig Barber wrote: Hey All, I'm going on the 3rd year of my full-time career in software development now. Probably not unlike many others out there I was enticed away from completing my undergraduate degree for full-time work at a software development startup, and now Im looking into finishing up my degree. Unfortunately I've discovered that the UofA's CS program isn't really practical for professionals such as myself, as most of their CS courses are only offered during core business hours. I was wondering if any of you out there have experience and/or opinions on the quality of some of the programs out there tailored for professionals. For example, I've been researching the University of Phoenix. They have an online program which offers a BS tailored for software engineering: http:// www.phoenix.edu/online_and_campus_programs/degree_programs/ degree_programs_description.aspx?progversion=5locationid=-1 For you employers and/or educators out there: Which programs do you consider reputable and of good quality? Which programs would you recommend staying away from? How do you measure up a potential employee who has a degree from a program like this compared to a traditional university? Any feedback is welcome. -Craig Barber - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Warner Onstine - Programmer/Author New book on Tapestry 4! Tapestry 101 available at http://sourcebeat.com/books/tapestrylive.html [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://warneronstine.com/blog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] professional degree programs
Man I haven't seen this many big responses on the list in a long time :) My .02 - many of the smartest developers I've worked with in recent years have had non-tech degrees like English, Sociology, etc. On a related note: IMHO, quality companies who get it with regards to quality programmers don't care too much about degrees if you have street cred. For example, my company's interview process involves pair-programming with the CEO technical lead, and pairing on real-live projects. I think suggesting this approach to potential employees is a great way to distinguish yourself, and find out a lot about the company in the process. -- Chad On 8/23/07, Craig Barber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey All, I'm going on the 3rd year of my full-time career in software development now. Probably not unlike many others out there I was enticed away from completing my undergraduate degree for full-time work at a software development startup, and now Im looking into finishing up my degree. Unfortunately I've discovered that the UofA's CS program isn't really practical for professionals such as myself, as most of their CS courses are only offered during core business hours. I was wondering if any of you out there have experience and/or opinions on the quality of some of the programs out there tailored for professionals. For example, I've been researching the University of Phoenix. They have an online program which offers a BS tailored for software engineering: http://www.phoenix.edu/ online_and_campus_programs/degree_programs/ degree_programs_description.aspx?progversion=5locationid=-1 For you employers and/or educators out there: Which programs do you consider reputable and of good quality? Which programs would you recommend staying away from? How do you measure up a potential employee who has a degree from a program like this compared to a traditional university? Any feedback is welcome. -Craig Barber - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] professional degree programs
you like to use question mark statements.? :P - Aaron.? --- Steve Shucker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - I agree with Jon and Rob that a degree is not a prerequisite to asuccessful career and doesn't say as much about your abilities as yourexperience.� The degree did give me some formal terminology (like big-Onotation) to analyze and discuss concepts that would otherwise requirefuzzy descriptions, though.� I can also tell you that my experienceworking with people who earned CIS degrees at University of Phoenixwasn't on par with CompSci graduates from four year researchinstitutions.� My own time at UofA also taught me that some of the mostvaluable learning experiences come as much from sitting down withfellow students in a lab as from lectures. At my previous employer, I had a running debate with my boss and theCIO about college degree requirements.� They were necessary to applyfor programming positions.� I've worked with a number of brilliantpeople who didn't have a formal education and tried repeatedly to getthat requirement dropped.� In the end, the CIO told me that as anon-technology company (healthcare), they didn't have the HR expertiseto separate the wheat from the chaff without using formal requirementslike a degree.� HR would get a stack of resumes for an open position,reject 3/4 of them for not meeting requirements and send the rest tothe IT department to evaluate or interview.� As far as I was concerned,the value of a degree at that job was that it got your resume throughHR. -Steve Jon Thomas wrote: In terms of interviewing a college degree tells me alot moreabout commitment level and staying power than it does about knowledgelevel.� Craig I'm in the same boat as you (but going on 15 years as aSE).� I really liked the WSU program but now that I'm consulting anddon't have tuition reimbursement the Out of State tuition is kind ofhigh.� U of P os a good option but it could be more challenging to getinto a traditional gradschool layer if you choose to go that route.�Just my $.02 Jt Sent from my iPhone On Aug 23, 2007, at 9:35 PM, Bill Barr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Craig, Check out University of Maryland University College (www.umuc.edu).It's a full participant in the UMD system, they have several on-lineIT/IS degrees and their credit transfer policy is very liberal plusthey also offer co-op and a knowledge-for-credit transfer option. In practice I have found that all of the best developers I have hiredover the years, regardless of which school they went to and how manydegrees they had, all started programming before they could legallydrive a car. As a hiring manager, I look at it this way. In a 4-yeardegree, only about half of that time is focused on the major. In a 2year degree from a tech college, 100% is focused on the major. Thatleaves 2 extra years for real-world experience.� I just say that forsome added perspective; school only provides about 2 years ofjob-relevant instruction. Craig Barber [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:Hey All, I'm going on the 3rd year of my full-time career in software development now. Probably not unlike many others out there I was enticed away from completing my undergraduate degree for full-time work at a software development startup, and now Im looking into finishing up my degree. Unfortunately I've discovered that the UofA's CS program isn't really practical for professionals such as myself, as most of their CS courses are only offered during core business hours. I was wondering if any of you out there have experience and/or opinions on the quality of some of the programs out there tailored for professionals. For example, I've been researching the University of Phoenix. They have an online program which offers a BS tailored for software engineering: http://www.phoenix.edu/ online_and_campus_programs/degree_programs/ degree_programs_description.aspx?progversion=5locationid=-1 For you employers and/or educators out there: Which programs do you consider reputable and of good quality? Which programs would you recommend staying away from? How do you measure up a potential employee who has a degree from a program like this compared to a traditional university? Any feedback is welcome. -Craig Barber - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Bill Barr - Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summeractivities for kids. -To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel
[jug-discussion] Go back to school!
Oh but a critical two years it is! I can only speak for the last seven years that I have been hiring programmers and I can say that occasionally I have dropped someone from a pool of candidates for senior and architect positions if they had no real 4 year degree. Often I have hired and worked with junior and mid level developers who had no degree or associates degrees from U of Phoenix, UAT or the like. My consistent experience is that they are decent programmers and mediocre to poor Software Engineers. One of the first things I usually do is make them take a Data structures and algorithms class, and get Java programmer certified. While this doesn't make up for all that you can get out of a solid CS or CE degree it helps. IT and IS and MIS degrees generally fall for me half way between a BS in CS and an associates degree. My general experience is the associates degree people often end up tending towards programming in PHP, Ruby, Visual Basic, or ASP for less pay than a degreed CS guy who usually moves between multiple languages having a favorite compiled language and a favorite scripting language. Experience is great but the lack of a four year degree can end up being a ceiling. The clear path to being the exception to the ceiling is to become a poster child for an open source project or a particular technology. E.G. become a major committer for Grails or something that demonstrates competence. Write a book. Become the de facto speaker on a topic/technology at No Fluff Just Stuff etc... Food for thought. One friend of mine recently got a Masters in Engineering from ASU on top of his CIS degree from UofPhoenix. Getting the ASU on top of the UofP I believe closes the door on his questionable past. -Todd *** Todd R. Ellermann Chairman PHXJUG.org Acting CTO HWHC, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 602-738-6187 cell *** Does getting an ASU MBA with existing UofA BSCE make me a SunCat? or a WildDevil? - Original Message From: Bill Barr [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 9:35:16 PM Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] professional degree programs Craig, Check out University of Maryland University College (www.umuc.edu). It's a full participant in the UMD system, they have several on-line IT/IS degrees and their credit transfer policy is very liberal plus they also offer co-op and a knowledge-for-credit transfer option. In practice I have found that all of the best developers I have hired over the years, regardless of which school they went to and how many degrees they had, all started programming before they could legally drive a car. As a hiring manager, I look at it this way. In a 4-year degree, only about half of that time is focused on the major. In a 2 year degree from a tech college, 100% is focused on the major. That leaves 2 extra years for real-world experience. I just say that for some added perspective; school only provides about 2 years of job-relevant instruction. Craig Barber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey All, I'm going on the 3rd year of my full-time career in software development now. Probably not unlike many others out there I was enticed away from completing my undergraduate degree for full-time work at a software development startup, and now Im looking into finishing up my degree. Unfortunately I've discovered that the UofA's CS program isn't really practical for professionals such as myself, as most of their CS courses are only offered during core business hours. I was wondering if any of you out there have experience and/or opinions on the quality of some of the programs out there tailored for professionals. For example, I've been researching the University of Phoenix. They have an online program which offers a BS tailored for software engineering: http://www.phoenix.edu/ online_and_campus_programs/degree_programs/ degree_programs_description.aspx?progversion=5locationid=-1 For you employers and/or educators out there: Which programs do you consider reputable and of good quality? Which programs would you recommend staying away from? How do you measure up a potential employee who has a degree from a program like this compared to a traditional university? Any feedback is welcome. -Craig Barber - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Bill Barr Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=listsid=396545469
Re: [jug-discussion] professional degree programs
Don't blame him. He didn't send it from his iPhone... On 8/24/07, Aaron Rubin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: you like to use question mark statements.? :P - Aaron.? --- Steve Shucker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - I agree with Jon and Rob that a degree is not a prerequisite to asuccessful career and doesn't say as much about your abilities as yourexperience.� The
[jug-discussion] Re: Delivery Status Notification(Failure)
Does everyone else get this when responding to messages? If so, can whoever is responsible kill this subscription? On 8/24/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: has not been delivered to the recipient's BlackBerry Handheld. The returned error status is DB_USER_SUSPENDED_MODE - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] professional degree programs
For good or ill - I'll toss in my $.02: I did recruitment for Archon/3M when I was there. I viewed a degree as a show of commitment - not necessarily a quantification of a candidate's background or skill-set or any of that. At the very least, you knew they jumped through the numerous hoops and cleared the hurdles. So that's a base to start with. I'm with Duffy, I probably did favor candidate's with degrees. Still, how a candidate interviewed was always important to me (Rob's right - the experience becomes huge when you're looking at someone without a degree). On 8/24/07, Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For example, my company's interview process involves pair-programming with the CEO technical lead, and pairing on real-live projects. I think suggesting this approach to potential employees is a great way to distinguish yourself, and find out a lot about the company in the process. Thanks for sharing that bit about pair-programming - I think that's an awesome way to see a candidate's knowledge-base and potential.
Re: [jug-discussion] professional degree programs
I know for sure that I lost out on at least one job because I had a minor instead of a major in CS. I'm still considering going for my MS at some point, but the University wants me to reapply and take 8 classes to get my BS before applying for my Master's. You should always be able to find jobs in programming without the degree. If you want to work on more technically interesting problems (as I now realize I do), the advanced degree starts showing its use. On 8/23/07, Craig Barber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey All, I'm going on the 3rd year of my full-time career in software development now. Probably not unlike many others out there I was enticed away from completing my undergraduate degree for full-time work at a software development startup, and now Im looking into finishing up my degree. Unfortunately I've discovered that the UofA's CS program isn't really practical for professionals such as myself, as most of their CS courses are only offered during core business hours. I was wondering if any of you out there have experience and/or opinions on the quality of some of the programs out there tailored for professionals. For example, I've been researching the University of Phoenix. They have an online program which offers a BS tailored for software engineering: http://www.phoenix.edu/ online_and_campus_programs/degree_programs/ degree_programs_description.aspx?progversion=5locationid=-1 For you employers and/or educators out there: Which programs do you consider reputable and of good quality? Which programs would you recommend staying away from? How do you measure up a potential employee who has a degree from a program like this compared to a traditional university? Any feedback is welcome. -Craig Barber - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] professional degree programs
Nick L. started doing that at eBlox before he left. I think it is a great idea. There are people who seem wonderful during an interview but can't code to save their lives. - Original Message - From: Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 10:37 AM Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] professional degree programs Man I haven't seen this many big responses on the list in a long time :) My .02 - many of the smartest developers I've worked with in recent years have had non-tech degrees like English, Sociology, etc. On a related note: IMHO, quality companies who get it with regards to quality programmers don't care too much about degrees if you have street cred. For example, my company's interview process involves pair-programming with the CEO technical lead, and pairing on real-live projects. I think suggesting this approach to potential employees is a great way to distinguish yourself, and find out a lot about the company in the process. -- Chad On 8/23/07, Craig Barber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey All, I'm going on the 3rd year of my full-time career in software development now. Probably not unlike many others out there I was enticed away from completing my undergraduate degree for full-time work at a software development startup, and now Im looking into finishing up my degree. Unfortunately I've discovered that the UofA's CS program isn't really practical for professionals such as myself, as most of their CS courses are only offered during core business hours. I was wondering if any of you out there have experience and/or opinions on the quality of some of the programs out there tailored for professionals. For example, I've been researching the University of Phoenix. They have an online program which offers a BS tailored for software engineering: http://www.phoenix.edu/ online_and_campus_programs/degree_programs/ degree_programs_description.aspx?progversion=5locationid=-1 For you employers and/or educators out there: Which programs do you consider reputable and of good quality? Which programs would you recommend staying away from? How do you measure up a potential employee who has a degree from a program like this compared to a traditional university? Any feedback is welcome. -Craig Barber - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[jug-discussion] Clear path Re: [jug-discussion] Go back to school!
RE: The clear path to being the exception to the ceiling is to become a poster child for an open source project or a particular technology. E.G. become a major committer for Grails or something that demonstrates competence. Write a book. Become the de facto speaker on a topic/technology at No Fluff Just Stuff etc... You are misled. None of that matters much. Neither does the degree. The thing that matters the most is what you can do at work. The degree (the book and speaking) just opens the door. Success is what happens once you are inside. Never rest on your laurrels. I worked in a big, well-known fortune 100 in a department full of 300 people with CS degrees. I consistently got promoted over people who were more educated from very good schools much to their dismay. In the end, what matters the most was the teams I lead delivered the software to run the factories, and that had a large part to the blood, sweat and tears I put into the effort. I worked in a company were promotions were based on merit. I hear they are rare. Don't feel a degree makes one entitled--it does not. In the ends, it is the guy who can deliver what the business needs. When I started working at this same company I was the only one in the department who did not have a B.S. degree. When I left, I was the only one in my new department who did not have a PHD. If you love what you are doing, and you are truly interested and you work hard, (and you are successful), you will succeed degree or no degree. To the original poster... That said... by all means go back to school. It is much easier to get your foot in the door. I might go back and get a CS degree simply because I love school. It won't be because I need a job. I know guys who can write books and can't perform really well. I know guys who can talk a good game and can't perform really well. I know guys who have CS degrees who (quoting Warner) I would not let near my project. I currently employ eight developer in the U.S. (1) One has a CS degree. (3)Three have enigneering degress (electrical, mechanical, aeropsace). (1)One has a CS degree from a professional school. (2)Two have no degree (but between them have 40 years experience). (1) One has a non-techncial degree. They are all very good. It would be hard to pick the best one. - Original Message - From: Todd Ellermann To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 10:56 AM Subject: [jug-discussion] Go back to school! Oh but a critical two years it is! I can only speak for the last seven years that I have been hiring programmers and I can say that occasionally I have dropped someone from a pool of candidates for senior and architect positions if they had no real 4 year degree. Often I have hired and worked with junior and mid level developers who had no degree or associates degrees from U of Phoenix, UAT or the like. My consistent experience is that they are decent programmers and mediocre to poor Software Engineers. One of the first things I usually do is make them take a Data structures and algorithms class, and get Java programmer certified. While this doesn't make up for all that you can get out of a solid CS or CE degree it helps. IT and IS and MIS degrees generally fall for me half way between a BS in CS and an associates degree. My general experience is the associates degree people often end up tending towards programming in PHP, Ruby, Visual Basic, or ASP for less pay than a degreed CS guy who usually moves between multiple languages having a favorite compiled language and a favorite scripting language. Experience is great but the lack of a four year degree can end up being a ceiling. The clear path to being the exception to the ceiling is to become a poster child for an open source project or a particular technology. E.G. become a major committer for Grails or something that demonstrates competence. Write a book. Become the de facto speaker on a topic/technology at No Fluff Just Stuff etc... Food for thought. One friend of mine recently got a Masters in Engineering from ASU on top of his CIS degree from UofPhoenix. Getting the ASU on top of the UofP I believe closes the door on his questionable past. -Todd *** Todd R. Ellermann Chairman PHXJUG.org Acting CTO HWHC, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 602-738-6187 cell *** Does getting an ASU MBA with existing UofA BSCE make me a SunCat? or a WildDevil? - Original Message From: Bill Barr [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 9:35:16 PM Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] professional degree programs Craig, Check out University of Maryland University College (www.umuc.edu). It's a full participant in the UMD system, they have
[jug-discussion] A little off topic... I thought I would actually talk about Java for a moment....
I wrote up some design docs for the Crank Crud bits and I'd love some feedback. http://code.google.com/p/krank/wiki/CrankCrudDesignDocs Crank Crud should work with Tapestry/OGNL, WebWork/OGNL, Swing and GWT. Of course, being the JSF bigot that I am (I am really not), the first version works with JSF. The JSF code is seperate from the Crank Code. There is a guy poritng Crank Crud to work with Spring MVC although I don't think it will fit Spring MVC as well as Struts 2 (a.k.a.) or Tapestry. It seems to me it needs something like OGNL or JSF-EL to be successful. The UML diagrams should give one a guide to how Crank Crud is architected. Crank Crud builds on top of Crank's Criteria API. Solid feedback welcome. BTW I dislike Ruby so if your feedback is why don't you use RoR... feel free to keep it to yourself. I invite you to in fact. Frankly, I heard it before. Java for me thanks Maybe a bit of Groovy too... :o) I'd love some feedback on the overall design. (There are some warts in there) This should be the first document in a series of design documents. I need to document the following: * Crank DAO support ** DAO implementation of DAO support * Crank Criteria DSL (a DSL written in Java) * Crank Validation (produce Ajax, client side JavaScript, JSF validations, Spring MVC validations based on Java Annotations) * Crank Crud JSF integration * Crank Crud Spring integration (when it exists) Crank has been downloaded over 1,000 (not including access to the SVN repository). We have 11 committers and around 5 people asking to be committers. This is my first OS project. I am hoping the documents will help people become commiters and port Crank to other things like Tapestry, Struts 2, GWT, etc.
Re: [jug-discussion] A little off topic... I thought I would actually talk about Java for a moment....
I'd love someone to port the sample app to Struts 2/OGNL (aka WebWork) and/or Tapestry. BTW Crank is divided into 12 projects as follows: crank-coreCORE crank-crudJava CRUD, DAO, JPA support, Criteria DSL crank-validation Annotation driven validations crank-crud-webapp-sampleSample app that uses the whole stack crank-springmvc-validationIntegration between validation framework and Spring MVC crank-springmvc-validation-sampleSample app that uses the Annotaiton driven validation and Spring MVC crank-jsf-supportJSF support classes crank-jsf-validationIntegration between validation framework and Spring MVC crank-jsf-validation-sample (Uses annotation driven annotations to produce JSF validaiton, and JavaScript) crank-test-supportSupport for testing crud-jsf-archetypeArchetype for generating sample app crank-cache-web-test Darwinian vestige? Which coud be divided into areas as follows: The JSF crud sample apps builds on top of Facelets, Ajax4JSF, Tomahawk, Spring, JSF and JPA. - Original Message - From: Rick Hightower To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 4:38 PM Subject: [jug-discussion] A little off topic... I thought I would actually talk about Java for a moment I wrote up some design docs for the Crank Crud bits and I'd love some feedback. http://code.google.com/p/krank/wiki/CrankCrudDesignDocs Crank Crud should work with Tapestry/OGNL, WebWork/OGNL, Swing and GWT. Of course, being the JSF bigot that I am (I am really not), the first version works with JSF. The JSF code is seperate from the Crank Code. There is a guy poritng Crank Crud to work with Spring MVC although I don't think it will fit Spring MVC as well as Struts 2 (a.k.a.) or Tapestry. It seems to me it needs something like OGNL or JSF-EL to be successful. The UML diagrams should give one a guide to how Crank Crud is architected. Crank Crud builds on top of Crank's Criteria API. Solid feedback welcome. BTW I dislike Ruby so if your feedback is why don't you use RoR... feel free to keep it to yourself. I invite you to in fact. Frankly, I heard it before. Java for me thanks Maybe a bit of Groovy too... :o) I'd love some feedback on the overall design. (There are some warts in there) This should be the first document in a series of design documents. I need to document the following: * Crank DAO support ** DAO implementation of DAO support * Crank Criteria DSL (a DSL written in Java) * Crank Validation (produce Ajax, client side JavaScript, JSF validations, Spring MVC validations based on Java Annotations) * Crank Crud JSF integration * Crank Crud Spring integration (when it exists) Crank has been downloaded over 1,000 (not including access to the SVN repository). We have 11 committers and around 5 people asking to be committers. This is my first OS project. I am hoping the documents will help people become commiters and port Crank to other things like Tapestry, Struts 2, GWT, etc.
