Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Martin Graesslin]

On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 4:37:33 PM CET Alexander Dymo wrote:
> > So a vision which would ensure that also future technologies could be
> > served, would not harm that? Let's just not close doors.
> 
> Sure. But let's also not spread thin. Do you think it makes sense to
> find a middle ground between two proposals?

If we just look at the vision statement (which is in your draft not really 
defined) then yes I think they are extremely close. I see the explicit mention 
of GUI as a problem, because we already do more than GUI and saying GUI closes 
the door to any non GUI future technology.

On the mission side I think we are further apart, but that's a topic to 
discuss once the vision is settled.

Cheers
Martin

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Alexander Neundorf]

On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 08:01:01 Martin Graesslin wrote:
> On Monday, February 15, 2016 10:22:20 PM CET Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> > On Monday, February 15, 2016 15:11:47 Martin Graesslin wrote:
> > ...
> > 
> > > Maybe you could start thinking about that. What does it mean if THE GUI
> > > maintainer doesn't want that? Maybe he has a better look on it with THE
> > > GUI
> > > knowledge?
> > > 
> > > Please don't completely dismiss my feedback. Think about it.
> > 
> > Yes, but I have really a hard time understanding it. I'm actually assuming
> > there must be some misunderstanding, different bias or interpretation...
> > 
> > If the future interfaces won't be graphical, what other options do you see
> > ?
> I'm not a prophet, I have no clue what will be after graphical interfaces.

Hopefully not direct brain interfaces ;-)

> But some things we already see today emerging: speech for starters. Another
> example are all this Virtual Reality stuff which is not graphical in the
> sense of a GUI. Our phones notifies through vibration. We have smart
> watches interacting through sensors with the body. All without a GUI.

Thanks.

I think then we indeed have just different interpretations.

Sensors and speech input are to me "just" input devices, like keyboard, mouse, 
touchpad/screen, trackpoint, joystick, etc. Using them is IMO fully included 
in the term "GUI".

For the output: VR - I agree that "GUI" is typically not used for this. Still, 
"graphical (user) interfaces", can be interpreted to include it.
Speech output - it sure is (very) useful, but I am sure some graphical 
presentation will stay, and I think the vision should just emphasize the main 
points (I still think speech output won't become the main user interface for 
software in general).
Vibration alarm - I'd count that under additional peripheral.

So, the intention of "graphical user interfaces and applications" is:
- we do applications
- we do "user interfaces", i.e. desktop for normal computers and also e.g. 
Plasma Mobile. Do you have a better term ?
- "graphical" is there to point out that they typically have a graphical 
interface, they draw stuff somewhere
- point out that our *main* goal is not CLI
(- and of course everything supporting it/related to it)

Alex

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Alexander Neundorf]

On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 10:12:06 Mario Fux wrote:
> On Montag, 15. Februar 2016 21:25:52 CET Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> > Hallo Ingo,
> 
> Morning Alex and Co
> 
> > On Monday, February 15, 2016 14:31:09 Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> > > Hi Ingo,
> > 
> > > On Saturday, February 13, 2016 21:35:22 Ingo Klöcker wrote:
> > ...
> > 
> > > > I think your concern is that the vision does not function as
> > > > differentiation from other free software communities. That's correct,
> > > > but setting KDE apart from other free software communities is not the
> > > > purpose of the vision. What differentiates us from other free software
> > > > communities is not our goal, but the way we want to reach (resp.
> > > > approach) this goal. And this way should be spelled out in the
> > > > mission.
> > > 
> > > Ok.
> > > I doubt anybody wants to fight about the definition, whether its the
> > > vision, or the mission, or the product vision, or vision+mission
> > > combined.
> > > 
> > > What our group wants to have, is getting some more attention back to the
> > > products created by the KDE community.
> > 
> > IOW: it seems to me that our alternate vision draft is more a
> > vision+mission ?
> > 
> > If so, I guess the introdcution statement is what is usually called
> > "vision" ?
> > 
> > "KDE is a community of free software enthusiasts that strives to provide
> > graphical user interfaces and applications for end-users for all types of
> > computers across the device spectrum: desktops PCs, laptops, tablet,
> > smartphones, etc.
> > We believe that software should be free and respectful of the privacy of
> > our users. Our values are stated in the KDE Manifesto."
> 
> As I see it the "graphical user interfaces and applications" (which is an
> enumeration of different paradigms/things anyway ;-) could/should be
> substituted with "software" and there would be an agreement more or less
> between the two groups.

Yes, the main difference is "software" vs. "software with a GUI".

Alex

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Riccardo Iaconelli]

On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 10:12:06 AM Mario Fux wrote:
> As I see it the "graphical user interfaces and applications" (which is an 
> enumeration of different paradigms/things anyway  could/should be 
> substituted with "software" and there would be an agreement more or less 
> between the two groups.

We explicitly re-labeled it "technology" to include icons, wallpapers and 
other kind of content which might not be software.

I am actually very curious to hear what people think of our new draft... :-)

Bye,
-Riccardo


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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Mario Fux]

On Montag, 15. Februar 2016 21:25:52 CET Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> Hallo Ingo,

Morning Alex and Co

> On Monday, February 15, 2016 14:31:09 Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> > Hi Ingo,
> 
> > On Saturday, February 13, 2016 21:35:22 Ingo Klöcker wrote:
> ...
> 
> > > I think your concern is that the vision does not function as
> > > differentiation from other free software communities. That's correct,
> > > but setting KDE apart from other free software communities is not the
> > > purpose of the vision. What differentiates us from other free software
> > > communities is not our goal, but the way we want to reach (resp.
> > > approach) this goal. And this way should be spelled out in the mission.
> > 
> > Ok.
> > I doubt anybody wants to fight about the definition, whether its the
> > vision, or the mission, or the product vision, or vision+mission
> > combined.
> > 
> > What our group wants to have, is getting some more attention back to the
> > products created by the KDE community.
> 
> IOW: it seems to me that our alternate vision draft is more a vision+mission
> ?
> 
> If so, I guess the introdcution statement is what is usually called "vision"
> ?
> 
> "KDE is a community of free software enthusiasts that strives to provide
> graphical user interfaces and applications for end-users for all types of
> computers across the device spectrum: desktops PCs, laptops, tablet,
> smartphones, etc.
> We believe that software should be free and respectful of the privacy of our
> users. Our values are stated in the KDE Manifesto."

As I see it the "graphical user interfaces and applications" (which is an 
enumeration of different paradigms/things anyway ;-) could/should be 
substituted with "software" and there would be an agreement more or less 
between the two groups.

Thus we'd have a common vision and could work on the mission(s).

> After all the discussions, I guess the manifesto doesn't really have to be
> mentioned there, since this is a separate issue ?

+1

> Alex

Thanks
Mario

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Martin Graesslin]

On Monday, February 15, 2016 10:22:20 PM CET Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> On Monday, February 15, 2016 15:11:47 Martin Graesslin wrote:
> ...
> 
> > Maybe you could start thinking about that. What does it mean if THE GUI
> > maintainer doesn't want that? Maybe he has a better look on it with THE
> > GUI
> > knowledge?
> > 
> > Please don't completely dismiss my feedback. Think about it.
> 
> Yes, but I have really a hard time understanding it. I'm actually assuming
> there must be some misunderstanding, different bias or interpretation...
> 
> If the future interfaces won't be graphical, what other options do you see ?

I'm not a prophet, I have no clue what will be after graphical interfaces. But 
some things we already see today emerging: speech for starters. Another 
example are all this Virtual Reality stuff which is not graphical in the sense 
of a GUI. Our phones notifies through vibration. We have smart watches 
interacting through sensors with the body. All without a GUI.

There is a world beyond GUI. Things relevant to our users. Things relevant to 
privacy. I want KDE to be there, to give secure and privacy aware solutions 
also on future interaction patterns and not be limited by saying we only do 
GUI.

Cheers
Martin



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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Alexander Neundorf]

On Monday, February 15, 2016 15:11:47 Martin Graesslin wrote:
...
> Maybe you could start thinking about that. What does it mean if THE GUI
> maintainer doesn't want that? Maybe he has a better look on it with THE GUI
> knowledge?
> 
> Please don't completely dismiss my feedback. Think about it.

Yes, but I have really a hard time understanding it. I'm actually assuming 
there must be some misunderstanding, different bias or interpretation...

If the future interfaces won't be graphical, what other options do you see ?

Alex

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Jaroslaw Staniek]

On 15 February 2016 at 20:40, Alexander Dymo  wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 7:51 AM, A. Spehr  wrote:
> > "World domination through free software."
> >
> > Maybe that's too flippant, or more the vision of Linux and not KDE, but
> that
> > was my first thought as I glanced at this in the middle of the night,
> while
> > half asleep. Who doesn't want to take over the world with cool toys?
>
> I'm all for world domination :) But as the start, I'd be OK with KDE
> dominating the software that people use on their personal computing
> devices (both mobile and not). Aren't all these devices cool?
>

​No surprise you are :)​

​http://i.imgur.com/f3rJdnN.png​


​/me hides
​

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-- 
regards, Jaroslaw Staniek

KDE:
: A world-wide network of software engineers, artists, writers, translators
: and facilitators committed to Free Software development - http://kde.org
Calligra Suite:
: A graphic art and office suite - http://calligra.org
Kexi:
: A visual database apps builder - http://calligra.org/kexi
Qt Certified Specialist:
: http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Alexander Dymo]

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 7:51 AM, A. Spehr  wrote:
> "World domination through free software."
>
> Maybe that's too flippant, or more the vision of Linux and not KDE, but that
> was my first thought as I glanced at this in the middle of the night, while
> half asleep. Who doesn't want to take over the world with cool toys?

I'm all for world domination :) But as the start, I'd be OK with KDE
dominating the software that people use on their personal computing
devices (both mobile and not). Aren't all these devices cool?
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Martin Graesslin]

On Monday, February 15, 2016 2:31:09 PM CET Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> Ok.
> I doubt anybody wants to fight about the definition, whether its the vision,
> or the mission, or the product vision, or vision+mission combined.
> 
> What our group wants to have, is getting some more attention back to the
> products created by the KDE community.
> 
> How do we call the stuff which is what most KDE software is typically doing
> ? It's not CLI, it's not braille, voice output (while great) is also not
> the core of KDE, it's not machine interfaces, "Free Software" is just too
> generic. (I'd call it GUI, since the computer presents information in a
> graphical way.)

Hi Alex,

I'm the maintainer of the application which makes your products visible on the 
screen. So to say my application is "THE GUI". I'm the one telling you over 
and over again that I don't want KDE to focus on GUI, to not have that written 
into the vision.

Maybe you could start thinking about that. What does it mean if THE GUI 
maintainer doesn't want that? Maybe he has a better look on it with THE GUI 
knowledge?

Please don't completely dismiss my feedback. Think about it.

Cheers
Martin



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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[A. Spehr]

On Feb 15, 2016 5:30 AM, "Alexander Neundorf"  wrote:
> On Saturday, February 13, 2016 21:35:22 Ingo Klöcker wrote:
> > On Monday 08 February 2016 17:07:26 Alexander Dymo wrote:
> ...
> > > Defining it in writing as the goal of KDE adds neither value nor
> > > attractiveness to KDE as a project.

[???]

> > Well, that's debatable (and I disagree with it), but I hope you agree
> > that not defining it in writing as the goal of KDE can only reduce KDE's
> > attractiveness (because some potential contributors might fail to see
> > our goal and decide to join another community).
>
> > I think your concern is that the vision does not function as
> > differentiation from other free software communities. That's correct,
> > but setting KDE apart from other free software communities is not the
> > purpose of the vision. What differentiates us from other free software
> > communities is not our goal, but the way we want to reach (resp.
> > approach) this goal. And this way should be spelled out in the mission.

"World domination through free software."

Maybe that's too flippant, or more the vision of Linux and not KDE, but
that was my first thought as I glanced at this in the middle of the night,
while half asleep. Who doesn't want to take over the world with cool toys?

> How do we call the stuff which is what most KDE software is typically
doing ?
> It's not CLI, it's not braille, voice output (while great) is also not the
> core of KDE, it's not machine interfaces, "Free Software" is just too
generic.
> (I'd call it GUI, since the computer presents information in a graphical
way.)

"GUI Interfacing"?

Alex Spehr
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Ingo Klöcker]

On Monday 08 February 2016 17:07:26 Alexander Dymo wrote:
> > We define the goal for KDE not in technical terms, but in terms of
> > Freedom, user control and privacy.
> 
> I understand this part clearly. I just say that this goal is too
> broadly defined, and, therefore hardly reachable by a single
> organization like KDE.

I think you misunderstand what (the purpose of) a vision is. Let's look 
at an example.

Oxfam's vision is "a just world without poverty". 
https://www.oxfam.org/en/our-purpose-and-beliefs

This goal is hardly reachable by a single organization like Oxfam.


> Most free software communities, including KDE, already work towards
> that goal.

Exactly. Just as many other NGOs are working towards the same goal as 
Oxfam.


> Defining it in writing as the goal of KDE adds neither value nor
> attractiveness to KDE as a project.

Well, that's debatable (and I disagree with it), but I hope you agree 
that not defining it in writing as the goal of KDE can only reduce KDE's 
attractiveness (because some potential contributors might fail to see 
our goal and decide to join another community).

I think your concern is that the vision does not function as 
differentiation from other free software communities. That's correct, 
but setting KDE apart from other free software communities is not the 
purpose of the vision. What differentiates us from other free software 
communities is not our goal, but the way we want to reach (resp. 
approach) this goal. And this way should be spelled out in the mission.


Regards,
Ingo


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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Alexander Dymo]

> So a vision which would ensure that also future technologies could be served,
> would not harm that? Let's just not close doors.

Sure. But let's also not spread thin. Do you think it makes sense to
find a middle ground between two proposals?
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Alexander Neundorf]

On Tuesday, February 09, 2016 07:55:08 Martin Graesslin wrote:
...
> This was more a rhetorical question. Apparently it didn't make it through.
> I'm worried about your vision closing a path for the future. Your vision
> setting a focus on past technologies, which will result in stagnation,
> shrinking and death

I actually don't consider normal desktop PCs, notebooks, tablets, smartphones, 
smart watches etc. etc, everything that displays something, all as "past 
technology" not worth putting effort into it.

Even if it may not be the technology we'll have in 20 years, it is IMO still 
worth putting work into it, e.g. all Android-devices, for the next few years.

Alex

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Alexander Dymo]

Sorry, I think we simply cannot understand one another. We repeatedly
expressed the same idea several times.

We keep coming up with different words? That's natural. We're at the
"draft" stage, right?

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 12:44 AM, Martin Graesslin  wrote:
> On Monday, February 8, 2016 5:09:35 PM CET Alexander Dymo wrote:
>> In that mail I omitted the "GUI" somewhere near the "free software".
>> We do agree with Alex N about that.
>
> Just follow the last three replies to that thread and try to understand why I
> think your answers are contradicting and there is no focus. You are jumping
> around. I have a hard time following that and a hard time to understand the
> aims of your vision. A vision which is difficult to understand, is not 
> helpful.
> Sorry to say so.
>
> Cheers
> Martin
>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 5:05 PM, Riccardo Iaconelli  wrote:
>> > On Monday, February 08, 2016 01:12:51 PM Alexander Dymo wrote:
>> >> We pointed many times that the focus is on free software
>> >> for mobile: hybrid laptop, tablet, phone, and any existing or future
>> >> personal computing device.
>> >
>> > So your vision wants KDE to target mobile computing?  What about desktops,
>> > web, and other platforms we're targetting right now? Alex says, for
>> > example
>> > something broader and different: local UIs.
>> >
>> > Bye,
>> > -Riccardo
>>
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Martin Graesslin]

On Tuesday, February 9, 2016 11:00:52 PM CET Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 09, 2016 07:55:08 Martin Graesslin wrote:
> ...
> 
> > This was more a rhetorical question. Apparently it didn't make it through.
> > I'm worried about your vision closing a path for the future. Your vision
> > setting a focus on past technologies, which will result in stagnation,
> > shrinking and death
> 
> I actually don't consider normal desktop PCs, notebooks, tablets,
> smartphones, smart watches etc. etc, everything that displays something,
> all as "past technology" not worth putting effort into it.

And that's not what I said. " I'm worried about your vision closing a path for 
the future" - that doesn't say anything about the present.

> 
> Even if it may not be the technology we'll have in 20 years, it is IMO still
> worth putting work into it, e.g. all Android-devices, for the next few
> years.

So a vision which would ensure that also future technologies could be served, 
would not harm that? Let's just not close doors.

Cheers
Martin

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Martin Graesslin]

Hi,

thank you for your replies. Unfortunately I don't find these satisfying 
answers. I asked for explanations why not. This is completely missing. A we 
should do GUI is no explanation on why we should not be a leader in the next 
big thing. So please explain in more detail, why you think KDE should not be a 
leader in future technologies.

Please also consider how you want to attract new developers, young students to 
work on KDE? How are we going to get in new developers if we discourage 
working on the new shiny stuff everybody wants? That's how we all got into 
KDE. We worked on the new shiny stuff. How are we going to attract students to 
work on desktop apps, when they maybe have never seen a desktop? How will they 
know at all about KDE which is currently non-existing on mobile even?

Furthermore how are you convincing the existing developer base to continue to 
work on KDE software if there is no prospect of leading in the next big thing? 
How do you convince me to continue to develop the desktop when I don't see a 
future for KDE due to not willing to go to the next thing?

Cheers
Martin

On Friday, February 5, 2016 4:54:31 PM CET Alexander Dymo wrote:
> A couple of years ago everybody though people will do all their tasks
> through the web browser. That turned out not to be the case.
> Applications made a huge comeback to mobile, and now to desktop. I
> agree with AlexN that this is where KDE's opportunity lies. Not in a
> cloud, not in knowledge management. It's here, in app development, the
> area of our expertise.
> 
> PS: not to say we should ignore the cloud. There are myriad of ways of
> integrating with cloud services which individual apps should
> definitely explore and implement.
> 
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 4:44 PM, Alexander Neundorf  wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > ...
> > 
> >> Thus now my question: How will this vision provide us guidance for the
> >> next
> >> disruption? How will we be able to use this vision to be a leader in the
> >> next disruption? Please explain why you think that the vision will help
> >> in
> >> the next disruption. If you don't think that the vision is for that
> >> please
> >> also explain why you think that. E.g. if you think we shouldn't care
> >> about
> >> the next disruption, please explain the reasoning for it.
> > 
> > just answering for myself: for me, KDE actually doesn't have to be the
> > leader in the next disruption. For me, it is ambitious enough to become
> > the leader in a defined, but still wide area. Also in the future there
> > will be the need for local GUI software on normal PCs, notebooks,
> > tablets, smartphones, maybe projected interfaces. I want KDE to stay
> > focused on that for now, this is where we have expertise, we don't need
> > to throw that away.
> > Once such local software is not needed anymore (will that happen ? I don't
> > know), something will happen with KDE. Either it will fade away, or it
> > will
> > have slowly shifted by itself into some new direction. As I wrote, this
> > draft is not for eternity, it gives a focus for today.
> > 
> > And today, I still see so much work to do for the next few years. I don't
> > want us to give up on mobile. I have an awful mix of various apps on my
> > personal tablet/smartphones. We as KDE can do so much better than that:
> > free software, no ads, consistent user interfaces, reliable quality, etc.
> > 
> > Alex
> > 
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Martin Graesslin]

On Sunday, February 7, 2016 2:00:43 PM CET Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> On Saturday, February 06, 2016 19:39:35 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> > On Samstag, 6. Februar 2016 16:47:31 CET Ingo Klöcker wrote:
> > > Yes. I think the vision statement needs to be complemented by a mission
> > > statement. But I think, before we tackle the mission statement, we
> > > should
> > > nail down the vision.
> 
> I think the main difference is that it mentions local applications/software
> with GUIs explicitely (that's the "focus" ;-) ).

I have followed the discussion so far and asked many questions to try to 
understand where the difference is and where the focus is. My interpretation 
of the gathered answer is that there is no "focus". The provided answers were 
contradicting and whenever one went on towards "so you want to have this not 
in KDE" it was "oh no, we want that". Server software is fine, cloud is fine. 
Everything seems to be included. I don't see where the focus is you want. I 
was not able to derive any rule on what would fit into KDE and what not. I was 
not able to see the focus.

What I gathered from the replies looked like that anything coming from within 
KDE is fine. If I would start writing server software from within KDE it will 
be fine, but if I would start to work it outside it's not fine to get in. 
That's 
what I gathered from the replies. This worries me.

From the replies I read I have a feeling that you haven't made up your mind 
yet what the "focus" means. It gives me a feeling that each project to join 
would be questioned in detail, whether it matches the perceived "focus". Not 
very welcoming.

Cheers
Martin

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Martin Graesslin]

On Monday, February 8, 2016 5:09:35 PM CET Alexander Dymo wrote:
> In that mail I omitted the "GUI" somewhere near the "free software".
> We do agree with Alex N about that.

Just follow the last three replies to that thread and try to understand why I 
think your answers are contradicting and there is no focus. You are jumping 
around. I have a hard time following that and a hard time to understand the 
aims of your vision. A vision which is difficult to understand, is not helpful. 
Sorry to say so.

Cheers
Martin

> 
> On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 5:05 PM, Riccardo Iaconelli  wrote:
> > On Monday, February 08, 2016 01:12:51 PM Alexander Dymo wrote:
> >> We pointed many times that the focus is on free software
> >> for mobile: hybrid laptop, tablet, phone, and any existing or future
> >> personal computing device.
> > 
> > So your vision wants KDE to target mobile computing?  What about desktops,
> > web, and other platforms we're targetting right now? Alex says, for
> > example
> > something broader and different: local UIs.
> > 
> > Bye,
> > -Riccardo
> 
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Martin Graesslin]

On Monday, February 8, 2016 1:02:47 PM CET Alexander Dymo wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 2:15 AM, Martin Graesslin  wrote:
> > why you think KDE should not be a leader in future technologies.
> 
> What are these future technologies?
> I think you're just not convinced this is the future, right?

Sorry, I dont' have the capabilities to see what will be the future 
technologies. And I think neither do you. I consider it as likely that we will 
have a GUI less future, due to emerging technologies which I had already 
listed in another mail to show that a focus on GUI is not sufficient:
* speech recognition
* IoT
* sensors

But anyway I asked a question and would like to see an answer to it.

> 
> > How do you convince me to continue to develop the desktop when I don't see
> > a future for KDE due to not willing to go to the next thing?
> 
> You've already listed several "things". Which ones from them do you
> think are most important to work on?

This was more a rhetorical question. Apparently it didn't make it through. I'm 
worried about your vision closing a path for the future. Your vision setting a 
focus on past technologies, which will result in stagnation, shrinking and 
death. I'm asking you why I as a developer should contribute my time for a 
dieing community?

Cheers
Martin

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Alexander Dymo]

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 2:15 AM, Martin Graesslin  wrote:
> why you think KDE should not be a leader in future technologies.

What are these future technologies? Our group thinks that personal
computing devices are a big thing. Apps working on these devices are
going to be even more important than the devices themselves. It's
already the case with phones and tablets. Smartwatches are emerging.
More devices will arrive, each requiring a shell/launcher and the
apps. KDE can, and should be a leader there. Unlike cloud, services,
embedded programming, it is within our area of expertise.

I think you're just not convinced this is the future, right?

> How do you convince me to continue to develop the desktop when I don't see a
> future for KDE due to not willing to go to the next thing?

You've already listed several "things". Which ones from them do you
think are most important to work on?
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Monday, February 08, 2016 13:02:47 Alexander Dymo wrote:
> More devices will arrive, each requiring a shell/launcher and the
> apps.

I think devices without a graphical user interface, driven by speech or 
sensors will be more and more common.

The point really is, are we sure that important future technology will be 
driven by graphical user interfaces? Some probably will, but I wouldn't make 
it a deciding aspect for what we accept as KDE projects. The further you look 
into the future, the less likely this kind of assumption is to hold true.
-- 
sebas

Sebastian Kügler|http://vizZzion.org| http://kde.org

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Monday, February 08, 2016 13:12:51 Alexander Dymo wrote:
> The "inclusive" vision naturally doesn't have this problem because its
> attitude is: "let's have everybody on board".

You're misunderstanding this draft then, let me clarify: 

We define the goal for KDE not in technical terms, but in terms of Freedom, 
user control and privacy.
-- 
sebas

Sebastian Kügler|http://vizZzion.org| http://kde.org

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Alexander Dymo]

In that mail I omitted the "GUI" somewhere near the "free software".
We do agree with Alex N about that.

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 5:05 PM, Riccardo Iaconelli  wrote:
> On Monday, February 08, 2016 01:12:51 PM Alexander Dymo wrote:
>> We pointed many times that the focus is on free software
>> for mobile: hybrid laptop, tablet, phone, and any existing or future
>> personal computing device.
>
> So your vision wants KDE to target mobile computing?  What about desktops,
> web, and other platforms we're targetting right now? Alex says, for example
> something broader and different: local UIs.
>
> Bye,
> -Riccardo
>
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Alexander Dymo]

> We define the goal for KDE not in technical terms, but in terms of Freedom,
> user control and privacy.

I understand this part clearly. I just say that this goal is too
broadly defined, and, therefore hardly reachable by a single
organization like KDE. Most free software communities, including KDE,
already work towards that goal. Defining it in writing as the goal of
KDE adds neither value nor attractiveness to KDE as a project.

What we propose actually talks about the same things: freedom, user
control, privacy. But it limits the scope from "all aspects of digital
life" to "software that powers up your computing devices".
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Alexander Neundorf]

On Saturday, February 06, 2016 19:39:35 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> On Samstag, 6. Februar 2016 16:47:31 CET Ingo Klöcker wrote:
> > Yes. I think the vision statement needs to be complemented by a mission
> > statement. But I think, before we tackle the mission statement, we should
> > nail down the vision.

I think the main difference is that it mentions local applications/software 
with GUIs explicitely (that's the "focus" ;-) ).

> That exactly was our (the "inclusive vision group") plan.
> And it now looks to me that maybe the actual Vision part of the "focused
> version" isn't all that different form the other one.

That's good :-)
 
> It feels to me that we all agree far more on the vision than the mission. We
> all want the same in the end (end-users are in control of their devices and
> software, and can keep their privacy), we just prefer different paths
> toward that goal (the mission).
> 
> Am I right or am I missing something?

Well, a one-sentence vision statement probably always leaves a lot of room for 
interpretation...
I think there's no need to rush.
Things are going much better now, that we see what has been written down. :-)
So, let's just continue, gather opinions and views, and maybe head towards the 
mission ?

Alex

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

On Samstag, 6. Februar 2016 16:47:31 CET Ingo Klöcker wrote:
> Yes. I think the vision statement needs to be complemented by a mission
> statement. But I think, before we tackle the mission statement, we should
> nail down the vision.

That exactly was our (the "inclusive vision group") plan. 
And it now looks to me that maybe the actual Vision part of the "focused 
version" isn't all that different form the other one.

It feels to me that we all agree far more on the vision than the mission. We 
all want the same in the end (end-users are in control of their devices and 
software, and can keep their privacy), we just prefer different paths toward 
that goal (the mission).

Am I right or am I missing something?
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Alexander Neundorf]

Hi Ingo,

On Friday, February 05, 2016 16:43:06 Ingo Klöcker wrote:
> On Wednesday 03 February 2016 22:05:20 Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> > KDE is an end-user focused, openly governed community of free software
> > enthusiasts
> 
> This is a description of what you (and me) think KDE is (or should be), but
> not what its goal (vision) is, unless you think that our goal should be to
> be "an end-user focused, openly governed community of free software
> enthusiasts".
> > that strives to provide graphical user interfaces and
> > applications for end-users for all types of computers across the device
> > spectrum: desktops PCs, laptops, tablets, smartphones, etc.
> 
> Providing end-user software for all kinds of devices sounds like a mission
> statement to me, i.e. like a plan to reach some goal. 

Maybe.
One result of "Evolve KDE" was that users want a vision or strategy or 
something.
Now, what does that mean...
Personally I doubt that they wanted a one.sentence pitch.
I think (just guessing), they just want to have some clear goal or direction 
KDE is working towards. At least that's what I want.
I think this draft would serve that purpose.
Matthias Ettrichs initial KDE-email certainly didn't match the definition of a 
vision, but it worked really well.
"I have a dream" was also more than one sentence. ;-)

Maybe vision+mission belong together ?

We could just tweak the opening sentences so they form a proper "vision", and 
keep the remainder as "mission" ?

> It totally lacks the What and Why, i.e. the greater goal. Why do we strive
> to provide ...? What is in it for the end-users that they do not get from
> any other software vendor?

For me this is hard to put in one meaningfull sentence.
The first sentence basically says "free GUI software for all devices/OSs" with 
slightly different words. The "free software enthusiasts" implies that we want 
to give freedom to the users and developers. Should this be spelled out ?

Why are we doing this ?
For me, I'm in KDE for two reasons: it is fun, and it gives people freedom, 
independence from companies for their everyday GUI software needs.

What is in it for the users they do not get anywhere else ?
One could say that the 4 items relate to 4 different types of users:

- "normal users": "manage their 'digital life' using free software no matter
  on which OS. ..familiar and consistent user experience"

- desktop Linux users: we have a great desktop, and we want to continue that

- tinkerers or companies working with mobile/embedded Linux: we provide a good 
(best) free user interface

- Qt developers: you get awesome libraries from us, free, stable, etc.

Those are very concrete, and also quite different "benefits" for users.

> > We believe that software should be free and respectful of the privacy of
> > our users.
> 
> This sentence seems to hint at a vision I could identify with. Free Software
> that protects the users privacy.
> 
> > Our values are stated in the KDE Manifesto.
> 
> This sentence isn't really part of a vision or mission statement. It makes
> sense to put it somewhere, e.g. on the page which shows our vision (and
> mission), but not as part of the vision (or mission).

Maybe.
it is just a draft, supposed to be changed. :-)
 
> Since Mirko posted a link to this website, I assume that you have read the
> list of 30 example vision statements.
> https://topnonprofits.com/examples/vision-statements/

Yes.

...
> A possible vision for KDE derived from your draft but being more in line
> with the example would be
> "KDE enables everyone to make best use of their digital devices without
> compromising their privacy."

I have to admit, while this certainly matches better the definition of a 
"vision", and I agree with it, to me, as a boring German engineer, this 
sentence alone is not useful.
When I read it, I think, Ok, that's an introduction, marketing, nothing 
concrete, now where is the real stuff ? Such a sentence alone doesn't make me 
excited, nor curious. I have seen enough of those slogans, everybody has one, 
they are usually "deep", "thought provoking", "engaging", etc., I'm actually 
tired of those.
Yes, we can tweak the first few sentences so they match that format.
I think an important point this draft wants to make is to spell out what KDE 
is trying to achieve in concrete software categories, so a reader understands 
what we are doing, and doesn't have to guess and assume.
As I said above, that's maybe vision+mission ?

Alex

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Ingo Klöcker]

On Wednesday 03 February 2016 22:05:20 Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> KDE is an end-user focused, openly governed community of free software
> enthusiasts

This is a description of what you (and me) think KDE is (or should be), but 
not what its goal (vision) is, unless you think that our goal should be to be 
"an end-user focused, openly governed community of free software enthusiasts".


> that strives to provide graphical user interfaces and
> applications for end-users for all types of computers across the device
> spectrum: desktops PCs, laptops, tablets, smartphones, etc.

Providing end-user software for all kinds of devices sounds like a mission 
statement to me, i.e. like a plan to reach some goal. It totally lacks the 
What and Why, i.e. the greater goal. Why do we strive to provide ...? What is 
in it for the end-users that they do not get from any other software vendor?


> We believe that software should be free and respectful of the privacy of our
> users.

This sentence seems to hint at a vision I could identify with. Free Software 
that protects the users privacy.


> Our values are stated in the KDE Manifesto.

This sentence isn't really part of a vision or mission statement. It makes 
sense to put it somewhere, e.g. on the page which shows our vision (and 
mission), but not as part of the vision (or mission).


Since Mirko posted a link to this website, I assume that you have read the 
list of 30 example vision statements.
https://topnonprofits.com/examples/vision-statements/

I will cite the vision statement of Creative Commons because they are closest 
to us:
Creative Commons: Our vision is nothing less than realizing the full potential 
of the Internet — universal access to research and education, full 
participation in culture — to drive a new era of development, growth, and 
productivity.


As you can see it does not say what Creative Commons is. Neither does it 
mention any plans how to reach their vision (e.g. by providing licenses). The 
same is true for the other 29 examples listed on the above page.


A possible vision for KDE derived from your draft but being more in line with 
the example would be
"KDE enables everyone to make best use of their digital devices without 
compromising their privacy."

"digital devices" most likely isn't the best term, but I couldn't think of a 
better concise term for "all types of computers across the device spectrum". 
Maybe "computing devices"?


Regards,
Ingo


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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Jos Poortvliet]

On donderdag 4 februari 2016 07:45:54 CET Martin Graesslin wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 10:05:20 PM CET Alexander Neundorf 
wrote:
> > We are happy to get comments or any other feedback on this draft, and 
we
> > are looking forward to a lively and constructive discussion about the
> > future of KDE.
> 
> I'm sorry to say, but I don't see any vision in your document. What is the
> essence I should grasp from reading that document? The one thing which 
the
> community can combine and rally behind it? What I see instead are various
> goals/missions which I think would be covered by the vision draft shared by
> Lydia.
> 
> So can I have a TLDR of your vision statement?

==
KDE is an end-user focused, openly governed community of free software 
enthusiasts that strives to provide graphical user interfaces and applications 
for end-users for all types of computers across the device spectrum: desktops 
PCs, laptops, tablets, smartphones, etc.

We believe that software should be free and respectful of the privacy of our 
users. Our values are stated in the KDE Manifesto.
===

That seems a decent TLDR. In bullet points:
* end user focus
* open government
* FOSS
* GUI applications for device spectrum
* privacy

This would put focus on developing Plasma, the various Applications and the 
Frameworks. Things like ownCloud, WikiFM, OCS or Kolab are relevant as far 
as desktop/application integration is concerned, but not core part of the KDE 
mission.

Note that I'm not arguing for or against this, just trying to answer your 
question.

> Cheers
> Martin


-- 
Disclaimer:
Everything I do and say is based on my view of the world today. I am not 
responsible for changes in the world, nor my view on it. Everything I say is 
meant in a positive and friendly way, unless explicitly stated otherwise.
find me on blog.jospoortvliet.com

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Alexander Neundorf]

Hi Adriaan,

On Wednesday, February 03, 2016 23:18:26 Adriaan de Groot wrote:
> On Wednesday 03 February 2016 22:05:20 Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> > Let's make KDE rule the world of free GUI software !
> 
> I'll be a little flippant and say that this is a second vision, different
> from the first one presented in your mail.

Well, maybe. ;-)
I think it says about the same (just very terse and unclear).

> But on-topic: Just a quick question: the paragraphs between - lines is
> the vision-statement from this vision-group? The text on the wiki-page
> https://community.kde.org/KDE/VisionDraftA  is slightly longer, with an
> introduction as well.

The "this document..." introduction didn't make sense to me as part of the 
email. It basically duplicated what the rest of the mail said already.

> I'm asking this because I want to know what I should put into my
> vision-ometer (a contraption that measures the visionariness) and what
> (same) text I should compare to any other vision-statement that is
> proposed.

I don't know.

To me, having a one-sentence vision statement alone is not overly important, 
I'm more interested in having a document which tells people what KDE is trying 
to achieve. That may need more than one sentence.

Having said that, the "core" is the first sentence ("KDE is").

The four items basically just go into more details to explain what that "core" 
statement is supposed to cover.

The whole thing is just a first, rough draft, waiting for feedback, 
suggestions, etc.
If you think this is not a vision, but a vision+mission, or something else, 
say so. :-)

Alex

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Martin Graesslin]

On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 10:05:20 PM CET Alexander Neundorf wrote: 
> We are happy to get comments or any other feedback on this draft, and we are
> looking forward to a lively and constructive discussion about the future of
> KDE.

I'm sorry to say, but I don't see any vision in your document. What is the 
essence I should grasp from reading that document? The one thing which the 
community can combine and rally behind it? What I see instead are various 
goals/missions which I think would be covered by the vision draft shared by 
Lydia.

So can I have a TLDR of your vision statement?

Cheers
Martin


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