Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[Wayne Stambaugh]

Fabrizio,

I pushed your patch to the master branch.  Thank you for your
contribution to KiCad.

Cheers,

Wayne

On 7/20/2017 8:45 AM, Fabrizio Tappero wrote:
> Hi Wayne,
> how are you? 
> 
> very cool. I have changed this patch so that everywhere: 
> 
> "Rotate 90 deg CW" -> "Rotate Clockwise"
> "Rotate 90 deg CCW" -> "Rotate Counterclockwise"
> 
> thanks a lot
> Fabrizio
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 3:35 PM, Wayne Stambaugh  > wrote:
> 
> On 7/19/2017 6:17 AM, Fabrizio Tappero wrote:
> > Hi Wayne,
> > Thanks for the many messages. I did not know that devs were so into
> > translation...
> >
> > My overall effort is to uniformise the Kicad UI and make it consistent
> > and as correct as possible.
> >
> > Currently in Kicad we are using "Rotate 90 deg CW" and "Rotate 90 deg
> > CCW" in many many menus (see below). This expression is also used in
> > Inkscape, a pretty high standard software for vector image manipulation.
> > I personally think that consistency is the most important aspect of my
> > contributions and, despite loving internal conversations about
> > translations, etc I think we need to pick what is considered the best
> > expression and use it coherently in all kicad menus. I have the feeling
> > that if I submit a similar patch in few months, this kind of discussion
> > will come up again. In a way this is typical of open-source software, so
> > maybe it is not a bad thing.
> 
> I'm fine with consistent but consistently incorrect or confusing is no
> better than inconsistent.
> 
> >
> > In my opinion I think it would be good not to reinvent expressions. I
> > think "CW" and "CCW" is a perfectly understandable and usable 
> expression.
> 
> CW and CCW are not expressions.  They are abbreviations which may not be
> understood outside of English.  I would prefer not to use abbreviations
> except for units unless space is at a premium.  In this case, I don't
> think there is a space issue.  Please use terms clockwise and
> counterclockwise.  These are the correct English terms for rotation
> direction.
> 
> >
> > The custom-defined rotation value is a new piece of info, thanks Wayne
> > for that! does it apply to all rotations?
> 
> This only applies when the user changes the default rotation angle from
> 90 to something else.  The rotation angle is fixed to 90 in the
> schematic, symbol library, and footprint library editors and is user
> configurable in the board editor.
> 
> >
> > Please advise how to modify this patch to make it submittable.
> 
> Use clockwise and counter clockwise instead of CW and CCW.  Either
> remove the 90 deg rotation angle or use the user rotation angle in the
> board editor menu string.  I don't have a preference.
> 
> >
> > Cheers
> > Fabrizio
> >
> >
> >
> > Inline image 1
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 2:47 AM, Wayne Stambaugh  
> > >> wrote:
> >
> > On 7/18/2017 8:24 PM, Chris Pavlina wrote:
> > >> (remember, this is localization, not literal translation)
> > >
> > > Thank you! en_US should be "counterclockwise" and "clockwise" (or
> > > even CCW/CW would be easily understood), and different phrasings
> > > should be used in different languages. Don't avoid "clockwise" in
> > > English because the French don't use it. It's up to the 
> translators
> > > to decide how things should be phrased in their locale.
> >
> > Yes!  This is how it should be done.
> >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 07:19:35PM -0500, José Ignacio wrote:
> > >> Clockwise and counter-clockwise are the most usual term in 
> American
> > >> Engish, other localizations should use the most usual term in 
> their
> > >> respective locales (remember, this is localization, not literal
> > >> translation). For example in Argentinian Spanish it should be
> > >> "Horario" and "Antihorario". Encoding information in the icons 
> only
> > >> is not a good idea, as users can disable them (or the system can
> > >> disable them by default) also screen readers can't read icons
> > >> (though i doubt many blind people would be using kicad to lay out
> > >> circuits).
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 4:00 PM, Clemens Koller  
> > >>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Hi!
> > >>>
> > >>> If we want to avoid clockwise (CW) and counterclockwise
> (CCW) I
> > >>> suggest to add a sign to 

Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[Fabrizio Tappero]

cheers and sorry for the back and forth.

Fabrizio


On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Wayne Stambaugh 
wrote:

> This look good to me.  I'm fine with the unified menu icons.  If no one
> has any objections, I will commit it.
>
> On 7/20/2017 8:45 AM, Fabrizio Tappero wrote:
> > Hi Wayne,
> > how are you?
> >
> > very cool. I have changed this patch so that everywhere:
> >
> > "Rotate 90 deg CW" -> "Rotate Clockwise"
> > "Rotate 90 deg CCW" -> "Rotate Counterclockwise"
> >
> > thanks a lot
> > Fabrizio
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 3:35 PM, Wayne Stambaugh  > > wrote:
> >
> > On 7/19/2017 6:17 AM, Fabrizio Tappero wrote:
> > > Hi Wayne,
> > > Thanks for the many messages. I did not know that devs were so into
> > > translation...
> > >
> > > My overall effort is to uniformise the Kicad UI and make it
> consistent
> > > and as correct as possible.
> > >
> > > Currently in Kicad we are using "Rotate 90 deg CW" and "Rotate 90
> deg
> > > CCW" in many many menus (see below). This expression is also used
> in
> > > Inkscape, a pretty high standard software for vector image
> manipulation.
> > > I personally think that consistency is the most important aspect
> of my
> > > contributions and, despite loving internal conversations about
> > > translations, etc I think we need to pick what is considered the
> best
> > > expression and use it coherently in all kicad menus. I have the
> feeling
> > > that if I submit a similar patch in few months, this kind of
> discussion
> > > will come up again. In a way this is typical of open-source
> software, so
> > > maybe it is not a bad thing.
> >
> > I'm fine with consistent but consistently incorrect or confusing is
> no
> > better than inconsistent.
> >
> > >
> > > In my opinion I think it would be good not to reinvent
> expressions. I
> > > think "CW" and "CCW" is a perfectly understandable and usable
> expression.
> >
> > CW and CCW are not expressions.  They are abbreviations which may
> not be
> > understood outside of English.  I would prefer not to use
> abbreviations
> > except for units unless space is at a premium.  In this case, I don't
> > think there is a space issue.  Please use terms clockwise and
> > counterclockwise.  These are the correct English terms for rotation
> > direction.
> >
> > >
> > > The custom-defined rotation value is a new piece of info, thanks
> Wayne
> > > for that! does it apply to all rotations?
> >
> > This only applies when the user changes the default rotation angle
> from
> > 90 to something else.  The rotation angle is fixed to 90 in the
> > schematic, symbol library, and footprint library editors and is user
> > configurable in the board editor.
> >
> > >
> > > Please advise how to modify this patch to make it submittable.
> >
> > Use clockwise and counter clockwise instead of CW and CCW.  Either
> > remove the 90 deg rotation angle or use the user rotation angle in
> the
> > board editor menu string.  I don't have a preference.
> >
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > Fabrizio
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Inline image 1
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 2:47 AM, Wayne Stambaugh <
> stambau...@gmail.com 
> > > >>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > On 7/18/2017 8:24 PM, Chris Pavlina wrote:
> > > >> (remember, this is localization, not literal translation)
> > > >
> > > > Thank you! en_US should be "counterclockwise" and
> "clockwise" (or
> > > > even CCW/CW would be easily understood), and different
> phrasings
> > > > should be used in different languages. Don't avoid
> "clockwise" in
> > > > English because the French don't use it. It's up to the
> translators
> > > > to decide how things should be phrased in their locale.
> > >
> > > Yes!  This is how it should be done.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 07:19:35PM -0500, José Ignacio wrote:
> > > >> Clockwise and counter-clockwise are the most usual term in
> American
> > > >> Engish, other localizations should use the most usual term
> in their
> > > >> respective locales (remember, this is localization, not
> literal
> > > >> translation). For example in Argentinian Spanish it should
> be
> > > >> "Horario" and "Antihorario". Encoding information in the
> icons only
> > > >> is not a good idea, as users can disable them (or the
> system can
> > > >> disable them by default) also screen readers can't read
> icons
> > > >> (though i doubt many blind people would be using kicad to
> lay out
> > > >> circuits).
> > >

Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[Wayne Stambaugh]

This look good to me.  I'm fine with the unified menu icons.  If no one
has any objections, I will commit it.

On 7/20/2017 8:45 AM, Fabrizio Tappero wrote:
> Hi Wayne,
> how are you? 
> 
> very cool. I have changed this patch so that everywhere: 
> 
> "Rotate 90 deg CW" -> "Rotate Clockwise"
> "Rotate 90 deg CCW" -> "Rotate Counterclockwise"
> 
> thanks a lot
> Fabrizio
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 3:35 PM, Wayne Stambaugh  > wrote:
> 
> On 7/19/2017 6:17 AM, Fabrizio Tappero wrote:
> > Hi Wayne,
> > Thanks for the many messages. I did not know that devs were so into
> > translation...
> >
> > My overall effort is to uniformise the Kicad UI and make it consistent
> > and as correct as possible.
> >
> > Currently in Kicad we are using "Rotate 90 deg CW" and "Rotate 90 deg
> > CCW" in many many menus (see below). This expression is also used in
> > Inkscape, a pretty high standard software for vector image manipulation.
> > I personally think that consistency is the most important aspect of my
> > contributions and, despite loving internal conversations about
> > translations, etc I think we need to pick what is considered the best
> > expression and use it coherently in all kicad menus. I have the feeling
> > that if I submit a similar patch in few months, this kind of discussion
> > will come up again. In a way this is typical of open-source software, so
> > maybe it is not a bad thing.
> 
> I'm fine with consistent but consistently incorrect or confusing is no
> better than inconsistent.
> 
> >
> > In my opinion I think it would be good not to reinvent expressions. I
> > think "CW" and "CCW" is a perfectly understandable and usable 
> expression.
> 
> CW and CCW are not expressions.  They are abbreviations which may not be
> understood outside of English.  I would prefer not to use abbreviations
> except for units unless space is at a premium.  In this case, I don't
> think there is a space issue.  Please use terms clockwise and
> counterclockwise.  These are the correct English terms for rotation
> direction.
> 
> >
> > The custom-defined rotation value is a new piece of info, thanks Wayne
> > for that! does it apply to all rotations?
> 
> This only applies when the user changes the default rotation angle from
> 90 to something else.  The rotation angle is fixed to 90 in the
> schematic, symbol library, and footprint library editors and is user
> configurable in the board editor.
> 
> >
> > Please advise how to modify this patch to make it submittable.
> 
> Use clockwise and counter clockwise instead of CW and CCW.  Either
> remove the 90 deg rotation angle or use the user rotation angle in the
> board editor menu string.  I don't have a preference.
> 
> >
> > Cheers
> > Fabrizio
> >
> >
> >
> > Inline image 1
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 2:47 AM, Wayne Stambaugh  
> > >> wrote:
> >
> > On 7/18/2017 8:24 PM, Chris Pavlina wrote:
> > >> (remember, this is localization, not literal translation)
> > >
> > > Thank you! en_US should be "counterclockwise" and "clockwise" (or
> > > even CCW/CW would be easily understood), and different phrasings
> > > should be used in different languages. Don't avoid "clockwise" in
> > > English because the French don't use it. It's up to the 
> translators
> > > to decide how things should be phrased in their locale.
> >
> > Yes!  This is how it should be done.
> >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 07:19:35PM -0500, José Ignacio wrote:
> > >> Clockwise and counter-clockwise are the most usual term in 
> American
> > >> Engish, other localizations should use the most usual term in 
> their
> > >> respective locales (remember, this is localization, not literal
> > >> translation). For example in Argentinian Spanish it should be
> > >> "Horario" and "Antihorario". Encoding information in the icons 
> only
> > >> is not a good idea, as users can disable them (or the system can
> > >> disable them by default) also screen readers can't read icons
> > >> (though i doubt many blind people would be using kicad to lay out
> > >> circuits).
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 4:00 PM, Clemens Koller  
> > >>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Hi!
> > >>>
> > >>> If we want to avoid clockwise (CW) and counterclockwise
> (CCW) I
> > >>> suggest to add a sign to 

Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[José Ignacio]

Most if not all of kicad is in US english, that can go in the en_UK
localization, together with spelling color as colour and -ise instead of
-ize.

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 8:51 AM, Chris Goddard  wrote:

> Just to add my 2p, Counter-clockwise is an American term. In the UK it's
> Anticlockwise.
>
> Cheers
>
> Chris
>
>
> On 19/07/2017 14:35, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:
>
>> On 7/19/2017 6:17 AM, Fabrizio Tappero wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Wayne,
>>> Thanks for the many messages. I did not know that devs were so into
>>> translation...
>>>
>>> My overall effort is to uniformise the Kicad UI and make it consistent
>>> and as correct as possible.
>>>
>>> Currently in Kicad we are using "Rotate 90 deg CW" and "Rotate 90 deg
>>> CCW" in many many menus (see below). This expression is also used in
>>> Inkscape, a pretty high standard software for vector image manipulation.
>>> I personally think that consistency is the most important aspect of my
>>> contributions and, despite loving internal conversations about
>>> translations, etc I think we need to pick what is considered the best
>>> expression and use it coherently in all kicad menus. I have the feeling
>>> that if I submit a similar patch in few months, this kind of discussion
>>> will come up again. In a way this is typical of open-source software, so
>>> maybe it is not a bad thing.
>>>
>>
>> I'm fine with consistent but consistently incorrect or confusing is no
>> better than inconsistent.
>>
>>
>>> In my opinion I think it would be good not to reinvent expressions. I
>>> think "CW" and "CCW" is a perfectly understandable and usable expression.
>>>
>>
>> CW and CCW are not expressions.  They are abbreviations which may not be
>> understood outside of English.  I would prefer not to use abbreviations
>> except for units unless space is at a premium.  In this case, I don't
>> think there is a space issue.  Please use terms clockwise and
>> counterclockwise.  These are the correct English terms for rotation
>> direction.
>>
>>
>>> The custom-defined rotation value is a new piece of info, thanks Wayne
>>> for that! does it apply to all rotations?
>>>
>>
>> This only applies when the user changes the default rotation angle from
>> 90 to something else.  The rotation angle is fixed to 90 in the
>> schematic, symbol library, and footprint library editors and is user
>> configurable in the board editor.
>>
>>
>>> Please advise how to modify this patch to make it submittable.
>>>
>>
>> Use clockwise and counter clockwise instead of CW and CCW.  Either
>> remove the 90 deg rotation angle or use the user rotation angle in the
>> board editor menu string.  I don't have a preference.
>>
>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Fabrizio
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Inline image 1
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 2:47 AM, Wayne Stambaugh >> > wrote:
>>>
>>>  On 7/18/2017 8:24 PM, Chris Pavlina wrote:
>>>  >> (remember, this is localization, not literal translation)
>>>  >
>>>  > Thank you! en_US should be "counterclockwise" and "clockwise" (or
>>>  > even CCW/CW would be easily understood), and different phrasings
>>>  > should be used in different languages. Don't avoid "clockwise" in
>>>  > English because the French don't use it. It's up to the
>>> translators
>>>  > to decide how things should be phrased in their locale.
>>>
>>>  Yes!  This is how it should be done.
>>>
>>>  >
>>>  > On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 07:19:35PM -0500, José Ignacio wrote:
>>>  >> Clockwise and counter-clockwise are the most usual term in
>>> American
>>>  >> Engish, other localizations should use the most usual term in
>>> their
>>>  >> respective locales (remember, this is localization, not literal
>>>  >> translation). For example in Argentinian Spanish it should be
>>>  >> "Horario" and "Antihorario". Encoding information in the icons
>>> only
>>>  >> is not a good idea, as users can disable them (or the system can
>>>  >> disable them by default) also screen readers can't read icons
>>>  >> (though i doubt many blind people would be using kicad to lay out
>>>  >> circuits).
>>>  >>
>>>  >> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 4:00 PM, Clemens Koller >>  >
>>>  >> wrote:
>>>  >>
>>>  >>> Hi!
>>>  >>>
>>>  >>> If we want to avoid clockwise (CW) and counterclockwise (CCW) I
>>>  >>> suggest to add a sign to the rotation, which should be trivial
>>> to
>>>  >>> translate:
>>>  >>>
>>>  >>> Mathematics/complex plane stuff tells that: CCW = positive
>>>  >>> rotation =  rotate + = rot+ CW = negative rotation = rotate - =
>>>  >>> rot-
>>>  >>>
>>>  >>> In german we can use "rotieren +" und "rotieren -".
>>>  >>>
>>>  >>> Regards,
>>>  >>>
>>>  >>> Clemens
>>>  >>>
>>>  >>>
>>>  >>> On 2017-07-18 19:34, jp charras wrote:
>>>   Le 18/07/2017 à 19:14, "Jörg Hermann" a 

Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[Kevin Cozens]

On 2017-07-19 06:17 AM, Fabrizio Tappero wrote:
Currently in Kicad we are using "Rotate 90 deg CW" and "Rotate 90 deg CCW" 
in many many menus (see below).


I don't see the use of CW and CCW as a problem. Anyone who understands 
English will know (or should know) what it means. Translators should know 
the proper translation. As long as they properly translate "Rotate" the 
icons beside the menu entries leave little doubt about the direction of the 
rotation.


--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/   |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
| powerful!"
#include  | --Chris Hardwick

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Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[Chris Goddard]

Just to add my 2p, Counter-clockwise is an American term. In the UK it's 
Anticlockwise.


Cheers

Chris

On 19/07/2017 14:35, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:

On 7/19/2017 6:17 AM, Fabrizio Tappero wrote:

Hi Wayne,
Thanks for the many messages. I did not know that devs were so into
translation...

My overall effort is to uniformise the Kicad UI and make it consistent
and as correct as possible.

Currently in Kicad we are using "Rotate 90 deg CW" and "Rotate 90 deg
CCW" in many many menus (see below). This expression is also used in
Inkscape, a pretty high standard software for vector image manipulation.
I personally think that consistency is the most important aspect of my
contributions and, despite loving internal conversations about
translations, etc I think we need to pick what is considered the best
expression and use it coherently in all kicad menus. I have the feeling
that if I submit a similar patch in few months, this kind of discussion
will come up again. In a way this is typical of open-source software, so
maybe it is not a bad thing.


I'm fine with consistent but consistently incorrect or confusing is no
better than inconsistent.



In my opinion I think it would be good not to reinvent expressions. I
think "CW" and "CCW" is a perfectly understandable and usable expression.


CW and CCW are not expressions.  They are abbreviations which may not be
understood outside of English.  I would prefer not to use abbreviations
except for units unless space is at a premium.  In this case, I don't
think there is a space issue.  Please use terms clockwise and
counterclockwise.  These are the correct English terms for rotation
direction.



The custom-defined rotation value is a new piece of info, thanks Wayne
for that! does it apply to all rotations?


This only applies when the user changes the default rotation angle from
90 to something else.  The rotation angle is fixed to 90 in the
schematic, symbol library, and footprint library editors and is user
configurable in the board editor.



Please advise how to modify this patch to make it submittable.


Use clockwise and counter clockwise instead of CW and CCW.  Either
remove the 90 deg rotation angle or use the user rotation angle in the
board editor menu string.  I don't have a preference.



Cheers
Fabrizio



Inline image 1

  


On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 2:47 AM, Wayne Stambaugh > wrote:

 On 7/18/2017 8:24 PM, Chris Pavlina wrote:
 >> (remember, this is localization, not literal translation)
 >
 > Thank you! en_US should be "counterclockwise" and "clockwise" (or
 > even CCW/CW would be easily understood), and different phrasings
 > should be used in different languages. Don't avoid "clockwise" in
 > English because the French don't use it. It's up to the translators
 > to decide how things should be phrased in their locale.

 Yes!  This is how it should be done.

 >
 > On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 07:19:35PM -0500, José Ignacio wrote:
 >> Clockwise and counter-clockwise are the most usual term in American
 >> Engish, other localizations should use the most usual term in their
 >> respective locales (remember, this is localization, not literal
 >> translation). For example in Argentinian Spanish it should be
 >> "Horario" and "Antihorario". Encoding information in the icons only
 >> is not a good idea, as users can disable them (or the system can
 >> disable them by default) also screen readers can't read icons
 >> (though i doubt many blind people would be using kicad to lay out
 >> circuits).
 >>
 >> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 4:00 PM, Clemens Koller >
 >> wrote:
 >>
 >>> Hi!
 >>>
 >>> If we want to avoid clockwise (CW) and counterclockwise (CCW) I
 >>> suggest to add a sign to the rotation, which should be trivial to
 >>> translate:
 >>>
 >>> Mathematics/complex plane stuff tells that: CCW = positive
 >>> rotation =  rotate + = rot+ CW = negative rotation = rotate - =
 >>> rot-
 >>>
 >>> In german we can use "rotieren +" und "rotieren -".
 >>>
 >>> Regards,
 >>>
 >>> Clemens
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> On 2017-07-18 19:34, jp charras wrote:
  Le 18/07/2017 à 19:14, "Jörg Hermann" a écrit :
 > Translation of Clockwise and Counterclockwise are long texts
 > in many
 >>> languages:
 > Uhrzeigersinn and Gegenuhrzeigersinn in german for example.
 >
 > If the icon depicts (dynamically) the sense of rotation, the
 > text can
 >>> be short as "Rotate" - which
 > is short in many languages. Just an idea?
 >
 > Jörg Hermann
 >
 
  I agree icons should show the rotation.
 
  However Rotate Clockwise (or Counter Clockwise ) is still
  needed (just
 >>> "Rotate" is not acceptable)
  

Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[Wayne Stambaugh]

On 7/19/2017 6:17 AM, Fabrizio Tappero wrote:
> Hi Wayne,
> Thanks for the many messages. I did not know that devs were so into
> translation...
> 
> My overall effort is to uniformise the Kicad UI and make it consistent
> and as correct as possible.
> 
> Currently in Kicad we are using "Rotate 90 deg CW" and "Rotate 90 deg
> CCW" in many many menus (see below). This expression is also used in
> Inkscape, a pretty high standard software for vector image manipulation.
> I personally think that consistency is the most important aspect of my
> contributions and, despite loving internal conversations about
> translations, etc I think we need to pick what is considered the best
> expression and use it coherently in all kicad menus. I have the feeling
> that if I submit a similar patch in few months, this kind of discussion
> will come up again. In a way this is typical of open-source software, so
> maybe it is not a bad thing.

I'm fine with consistent but consistently incorrect or confusing is no
better than inconsistent.

> 
> In my opinion I think it would be good not to reinvent expressions. I
> think "CW" and "CCW" is a perfectly understandable and usable expression. 

CW and CCW are not expressions.  They are abbreviations which may not be
understood outside of English.  I would prefer not to use abbreviations
except for units unless space is at a premium.  In this case, I don't
think there is a space issue.  Please use terms clockwise and
counterclockwise.  These are the correct English terms for rotation
direction.

> 
> The custom-defined rotation value is a new piece of info, thanks Wayne
> for that! does it apply to all rotations? 

This only applies when the user changes the default rotation angle from
90 to something else.  The rotation angle is fixed to 90 in the
schematic, symbol library, and footprint library editors and is user
configurable in the board editor.

> 
> Please advise how to modify this patch to make it submittable.

Use clockwise and counter clockwise instead of CW and CCW.  Either
remove the 90 deg rotation angle or use the user rotation angle in the
board editor menu string.  I don't have a preference.

> 
> Cheers
> Fabrizio
> 
> 
> 
> Inline image 1
> 
>  
> 
> On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 2:47 AM, Wayne Stambaugh  > wrote:
> 
> On 7/18/2017 8:24 PM, Chris Pavlina wrote:
> >> (remember, this is localization, not literal translation)
> >
> > Thank you! en_US should be "counterclockwise" and "clockwise" (or
> > even CCW/CW would be easily understood), and different phrasings
> > should be used in different languages. Don't avoid "clockwise" in
> > English because the French don't use it. It's up to the translators
> > to decide how things should be phrased in their locale.
> 
> Yes!  This is how it should be done.
> 
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 07:19:35PM -0500, José Ignacio wrote:
> >> Clockwise and counter-clockwise are the most usual term in American
> >> Engish, other localizations should use the most usual term in their
> >> respective locales (remember, this is localization, not literal
> >> translation). For example in Argentinian Spanish it should be
> >> "Horario" and "Antihorario". Encoding information in the icons only
> >> is not a good idea, as users can disable them (or the system can
> >> disable them by default) also screen readers can't read icons
> >> (though i doubt many blind people would be using kicad to lay out
> >> circuits).
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 4:00 PM, Clemens Koller  >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi!
> >>>
> >>> If we want to avoid clockwise (CW) and counterclockwise (CCW) I
> >>> suggest to add a sign to the rotation, which should be trivial to
> >>> translate:
> >>>
> >>> Mathematics/complex plane stuff tells that: CCW = positive
> >>> rotation =  rotate + = rot+ CW = negative rotation = rotate - =
> >>> rot-
> >>>
> >>> In german we can use "rotieren +" und "rotieren -".
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>>
> >>> Clemens
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 2017-07-18 19:34, jp charras wrote:
>  Le 18/07/2017 à 19:14, "Jörg Hermann" a écrit :
> > Translation of Clockwise and Counterclockwise are long texts
> > in many
> >>> languages:
> > Uhrzeigersinn and Gegenuhrzeigersinn in german for example.
> >
> > If the icon depicts (dynamically) the sense of rotation, the
> > text can
> >>> be short as "Rotate" - which
> > is short in many languages. Just an idea?
> >
> > Jörg Hermann
> >
> 
>  I agree icons should show the rotation.
> 
>  However Rotate Clockwise (or Counter Clockwise ) is still
>  needed (just
> >>> "Rotate" is not acceptable)
>  because icons are 

Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[Fabrizio Tappero]

Hi Wayne,
Thanks for the many messages. I did not know that devs were so into
translation...

My overall effort is to uniformise the Kicad UI and make it consistent and
as correct as possible.

Currently in Kicad we are using "Rotate 90 deg CW" and "Rotate 90 deg CCW"
in many many menus (see below). This expression is also used in Inkscape, a
pretty high standard software for vector image manipulation. I personally
think that consistency is the most important aspect of my contributions
and, despite loving internal conversations about translations, etc I think
we need to pick what is considered the best expression and use it
coherently in all kicad menus. I have the feeling that if I submit a
similar patch in few months, this kind of discussion will come up again. In
a way this is typical of open-source software, so maybe it is not a bad
thing.

In my opinion I think it would be good not to reinvent expressions. I think
"CW" and "CCW" is a perfectly understandable and usable expression.

The custom-defined rotation value is a new piece of info, thanks Wayne for
that! does it apply to all rotations?

Please advise how to modify this patch to make it submittable.

Cheers
Fabrizio



[image: Inline image 1]



On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 2:47 AM, Wayne Stambaugh 
wrote:

> On 7/18/2017 8:24 PM, Chris Pavlina wrote:
> >> (remember, this is localization, not literal translation)
> >
> > Thank you! en_US should be "counterclockwise" and "clockwise" (or
> > even CCW/CW would be easily understood), and different phrasings
> > should be used in different languages. Don't avoid "clockwise" in
> > English because the French don't use it. It's up to the translators
> > to decide how things should be phrased in their locale.
>
> Yes!  This is how it should be done.
>
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 07:19:35PM -0500, José Ignacio wrote:
> >> Clockwise and counter-clockwise are the most usual term in American
> >> Engish, other localizations should use the most usual term in their
> >> respective locales (remember, this is localization, not literal
> >> translation). For example in Argentinian Spanish it should be
> >> "Horario" and "Antihorario". Encoding information in the icons only
> >> is not a good idea, as users can disable them (or the system can
> >> disable them by default) also screen readers can't read icons
> >> (though i doubt many blind people would be using kicad to lay out
> >> circuits).
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 4:00 PM, Clemens Koller 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi!
> >>>
> >>> If we want to avoid clockwise (CW) and counterclockwise (CCW) I
> >>> suggest to add a sign to the rotation, which should be trivial to
> >>> translate:
> >>>
> >>> Mathematics/complex plane stuff tells that: CCW = positive
> >>> rotation =  rotate + = rot+ CW = negative rotation = rotate - =
> >>> rot-
> >>>
> >>> In german we can use "rotieren +" und "rotieren -".
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>>
> >>> Clemens
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 2017-07-18 19:34, jp charras wrote:
>  Le 18/07/2017 à 19:14, "Jörg Hermann" a écrit :
> > Translation of Clockwise and Counterclockwise are long texts
> > in many
> >>> languages:
> > Uhrzeigersinn and Gegenuhrzeigersinn in german for example.
> >
> > If the icon depicts (dynamically) the sense of rotation, the
> > text can
> >>> be short as "Rotate" - which
> > is short in many languages. Just an idea?
> >
> > Jörg Hermann
> >
> 
>  I agree icons should show the rotation.
> 
>  However Rotate Clockwise (or Counter Clockwise ) is still
>  needed (just
> >>> "Rotate" is not acceptable)
>  because icons are not always displayed: - On OSX by default
>  (although they can be shown, this is an option in
> >>> Kicad, now)
>  - On Linux, some WM do not display icons in menus.
> 
>  Besides, English language is know for its short words and
>  sentences. Translations are using most of time longer words and
>  sentences, and this
> >>> is sometimes an issue in menus.
>  We (translators) have to live with that.
> 
> >>>
> >>> ___ Mailing list:
> >>> https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers Post to :
> >>> kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe :
> >>> https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers More help   :
> >>> https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >>>
> >
> >
> > ___ Mailing list:
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Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[Wayne Stambaugh]

On 7/18/2017 8:24 PM, Chris Pavlina wrote:
>> (remember, this is localization, not literal translation)
> 
> Thank you! en_US should be "counterclockwise" and "clockwise" (or
> even CCW/CW would be easily understood), and different phrasings
> should be used in different languages. Don't avoid "clockwise" in
> English because the French don't use it. It's up to the translators
> to decide how things should be phrased in their locale.

Yes!  This is how it should be done.

> 
> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 07:19:35PM -0500, José Ignacio wrote:
>> Clockwise and counter-clockwise are the most usual term in American
>> Engish, other localizations should use the most usual term in their
>> respective locales (remember, this is localization, not literal
>> translation). For example in Argentinian Spanish it should be
>> "Horario" and "Antihorario". Encoding information in the icons only
>> is not a good idea, as users can disable them (or the system can
>> disable them by default) also screen readers can't read icons
>> (though i doubt many blind people would be using kicad to lay out
>> circuits).
>> 
>> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 4:00 PM, Clemens Koller 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi!
>>> 
>>> If we want to avoid clockwise (CW) and counterclockwise (CCW) I
>>> suggest to add a sign to the rotation, which should be trivial to
>>> translate:
>>> 
>>> Mathematics/complex plane stuff tells that: CCW = positive
>>> rotation =  rotate + = rot+ CW = negative rotation = rotate - =
>>> rot-
>>> 
>>> In german we can use "rotieren +" und "rotieren -".
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> Clemens
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 2017-07-18 19:34, jp charras wrote:
 Le 18/07/2017 à 19:14, "Jörg Hermann" a écrit :
> Translation of Clockwise and Counterclockwise are long texts
> in many
>>> languages:
> Uhrzeigersinn and Gegenuhrzeigersinn in german for example.
> 
> If the icon depicts (dynamically) the sense of rotation, the
> text can
>>> be short as "Rotate" - which
> is short in many languages. Just an idea?
> 
> Jörg Hermann
> 
 
 I agree icons should show the rotation.
 
 However Rotate Clockwise (or Counter Clockwise ) is still
 needed (just
>>> "Rotate" is not acceptable)
 because icons are not always displayed: - On OSX by default
 (although they can be shown, this is an option in
>>> Kicad, now)
 - On Linux, some WM do not display icons in menus.
 
 Besides, English language is know for its short words and
 sentences. Translations are using most of time longer words and
 sentences, and this
>>> is sometimes an issue in menus.
 We (translators) have to live with that.
 
>>> 
>>> ___ Mailing list:
>>> https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers Post to :
>>> kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe :
>>> https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers More help   :
>>> https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>> 
> 
> 
> ___ Mailing list:
> https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers Post to :
> kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe :
> https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers More help   :
> https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> 



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Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[Chris Pavlina]

> (remember, this is localization, not literal translation)

Thank you! en_US should be "counterclockwise" and "clockwise" (or even
CCW/CW would be easily understood), and different phrasings should be
used in different languages. Don't avoid "clockwise" in English because
the French don't use it. It's up to the translators to decide how things
should be phrased in their locale.

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 07:19:35PM -0500, José Ignacio wrote:
> Clockwise and counter-clockwise are the most usual term in American Engish,
> other localizations should use the most usual term in their respective
> locales (remember, this is localization, not literal translation). For
> example in Argentinian Spanish it should be "Horario" and "Antihorario".
> Encoding information in the icons only is not a good idea, as users can
> disable them (or the system can disable them by default) also screen
> readers can't read icons (though i doubt many blind people would be using
> kicad to lay out circuits).
> 
> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 4:00 PM, Clemens Koller  wrote:
> 
> > Hi!
> >
> > If we want to avoid clockwise (CW) and counterclockwise (CCW) I suggest to
> > add a sign to the rotation, which should be trivial to translate:
> >
> > Mathematics/complex plane stuff tells that:
> > CCW = positive rotation =  rotate + = rot+
> > CW = negative rotation = rotate - = rot-
> >
> > In german we can use "rotieren +" und "rotieren -".
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Clemens
> >
> >
> > On 2017-07-18 19:34, jp charras wrote:
> > > Le 18/07/2017 à 19:14, "Jörg Hermann" a écrit :
> > >> Translation of Clockwise and Counterclockwise are long texts in many
> > languages:
> > >> Uhrzeigersinn and Gegenuhrzeigersinn in german for example.
> > >>
> > >> If the icon depicts (dynamically) the sense of rotation, the text can
> > be short as "Rotate" - which
> > >> is short in many languages.
> > >> Just an idea?
> > >>
> > >> Jörg Hermann
> > >>
> > >
> > > I agree icons should show the rotation.
> > >
> > > However Rotate Clockwise (or Counter Clockwise ) is still needed (just
> > "Rotate" is not acceptable)
> > > because icons are not always displayed:
> > > - On OSX by default (although they can be shown, this is an option in
> > Kicad, now)
> > > - On Linux, some WM do not display icons in menus.
> > >
> > > Besides, English language is know for its short words and sentences.
> > > Translations are using most of time longer words and sentences, and this
> > is sometimes an issue in menus.
> > > We (translators) have to live with that.
> > >
> >
> > ___
> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >


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Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[José Ignacio]

Clockwise and counter-clockwise are the most usual term in American Engish,
other localizations should use the most usual term in their respective
locales (remember, this is localization, not literal translation). For
example in Argentinian Spanish it should be "Horario" and "Antihorario".
Encoding information in the icons only is not a good idea, as users can
disable them (or the system can disable them by default) also screen
readers can't read icons (though i doubt many blind people would be using
kicad to lay out circuits).

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 4:00 PM, Clemens Koller  wrote:

> Hi!
>
> If we want to avoid clockwise (CW) and counterclockwise (CCW) I suggest to
> add a sign to the rotation, which should be trivial to translate:
>
> Mathematics/complex plane stuff tells that:
> CCW = positive rotation =  rotate + = rot+
> CW = negative rotation = rotate - = rot-
>
> In german we can use "rotieren +" und "rotieren -".
>
> Regards,
>
> Clemens
>
>
> On 2017-07-18 19:34, jp charras wrote:
> > Le 18/07/2017 à 19:14, "Jörg Hermann" a écrit :
> >> Translation of Clockwise and Counterclockwise are long texts in many
> languages:
> >> Uhrzeigersinn and Gegenuhrzeigersinn in german for example.
> >>
> >> If the icon depicts (dynamically) the sense of rotation, the text can
> be short as "Rotate" - which
> >> is short in many languages.
> >> Just an idea?
> >>
> >> Jörg Hermann
> >>
> >
> > I agree icons should show the rotation.
> >
> > However Rotate Clockwise (or Counter Clockwise ) is still needed (just
> "Rotate" is not acceptable)
> > because icons are not always displayed:
> > - On OSX by default (although they can be shown, this is an option in
> Kicad, now)
> > - On Linux, some WM do not display icons in menus.
> >
> > Besides, English language is know for its short words and sentences.
> > Translations are using most of time longer words and sentences, and this
> is sometimes an issue in menus.
> > We (translators) have to live with that.
> >
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[Clemens Koller]

Hi!

If we want to avoid clockwise (CW) and counterclockwise (CCW) I suggest to add 
a sign to the rotation, which should be trivial to translate:

Mathematics/complex plane stuff tells that:
CCW = positive rotation =  rotate + = rot+
CW = negative rotation = rotate - = rot-

In german we can use "rotieren +" und "rotieren -".

Regards,

Clemens


On 2017-07-18 19:34, jp charras wrote:
> Le 18/07/2017 à 19:14, "Jörg Hermann" a écrit :
>> Translation of Clockwise and Counterclockwise are long texts in many 
>> languages:
>> Uhrzeigersinn and Gegenuhrzeigersinn in german for example.
>>  
>> If the icon depicts (dynamically) the sense of rotation, the text can be 
>> short as "Rotate" - which
>> is short in many languages.
>> Just an idea?
>>  
>> Jörg Hermann
>>  
> 
> I agree icons should show the rotation.
> 
> However Rotate Clockwise (or Counter Clockwise ) is still needed (just 
> "Rotate" is not acceptable)
> because icons are not always displayed:
> - On OSX by default (although they can be shown, this is an option in Kicad, 
> now)
> - On Linux, some WM do not display icons in menus.
> 
> Besides, English language is know for its short words and sentences.
> Translations are using most of time longer words and sentences, and this is 
> sometimes an issue in menus.
> We (translators) have to live with that.
> 

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Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[Chris Pavlina]

Watch out for Ubuntu, they have some weird patches on top of GTK that
they use with Unity. This may explain some of the weirdness under Unity.
It's not a WM thing though, they've actually patched GTK. It may also be
related to a difference in GTK version, or a setting respected by GTK.

The WM itself has no knowledge of menus though.

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 08:04:41PM +0200, jp charras wrote:
> Le 18/07/2017 à 19:35, Chris Pavlina a écrit :
> > On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 07:34:25PM +0200, jp charras wrote:
> >> Le 18/07/2017 à 19:14, "Jörg Hermann" a écrit :
> >>> Translation of Clockwise and Counterclockwise are long texts in many 
> >>> languages:
> >>> Uhrzeigersinn and Gegenuhrzeigersinn in german for example.
> >>>  
> >>> If the icon depicts (dynamically) the sense of rotation, the text can be 
> >>> short as "Rotate" - which
> >>> is short in many languages.
> >>> Just an idea?
> >>>  
> >>> Jörg Hermann
> >>>  
> >>
> >> I agree icons should show the rotation.
> >>
> >> However Rotate Clockwise (or Counter Clockwise ) is still needed (just 
> >> "Rotate" is not acceptable)
> >> because icons are not always displayed:
> >> - On OSX by default (although they can be shown, this is an option in 
> >> Kicad, now)
> >> - On Linux, some WM do not display icons in menus.
> > 
> > What? WM has no control over menus.
> > 
> 
> Really?
> 
> I am talking about icons in menus.
> This issue (no icons in menus) was already reported by users.
> 
> I have 2 Linux installs on my computer:
> 
> the first is ubuntu 14.04 and uses KDE : icons are displayed in Kicad menus.
> the other is ubuntu 16.04 and uses Unity: icons are *not* displayed in Kicad 
> menus.
> (I also used ubuntu 14.04 on Unity: no icons)
> 
> Displaying icons in menus or not is a problem reported by users, not only for 
> Kicad.
> 
> Just Goggling about this topic (like I did a long time ago).
> 
> -- 
> Jean-Pierre CHARRAS

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Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[José Ignacio]

Well, WM is technically incorrect, but GTK3 has icons off by default unless
the application forces them on (vs on by default in GTK2)

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Chris Pavlina 
wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 07:34:25PM +0200, jp charras wrote:
> > Le 18/07/2017 à 19:14, "Jörg Hermann" a écrit :
> > > Translation of Clockwise and Counterclockwise are long texts in many
> languages:
> > > Uhrzeigersinn and Gegenuhrzeigersinn in german for example.
> > >
> > > If the icon depicts (dynamically) the sense of rotation, the text can
> be short as "Rotate" - which
> > > is short in many languages.
> > > Just an idea?
> > >
> > > Jörg Hermann
> > >
> >
> > I agree icons should show the rotation.
> >
> > However Rotate Clockwise (or Counter Clockwise ) is still needed (just
> "Rotate" is not acceptable)
> > because icons are not always displayed:
> > - On OSX by default (although they can be shown, this is an option in
> Kicad, now)
> > - On Linux, some WM do not display icons in menus.
>
> What? WM has no control over menus.
>
> >
> > Besides, English language is know for its short words and sentences.
> > Translations are using most of time longer words and sentences, and this
> is sometimes an issue in menus.
> > We (translators) have to live with that.
> >
> > --
> > Jean-Pierre CHARRAS
> >
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Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[firewalker]

How about Sun-wise?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1QbNL0VAVM

But then again it will be an issue for south hemisphere...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJo674TYGMs

Sore for the off topic!

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 8:16 PM, Wayne Stambaugh 
wrote:

> Not sure English was a language before clocks.  Clocks have been around
> for a long time.
>
> On 7/18/2017 1:09 PM, firewalker wrote:
> > How about before clocks? :P :P :P
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 7:49 PM, Wayne Stambaugh  > > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On 7/18/2017 12:26 PM, firewalker wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > This probably should be left to the knowledge of the
> translators rather
> > > than try to come up with an English string that works in all
> cases
> > > (which is doubtful).  I would think someone translating
> "clockwise" and
> > > "counter clockwise" to Greek would use your "rightwise" and
> "leftwise"
> > > translations.  I'm assuming that is how the direction of a
> clock's
> > > movement is defined in Greek.
> > >
> > >
> > > This is correct. We rarely use the clock's hands to indicate
> direction
> > > of rotation.
> > >
> > > We say that the hands of a clocks move in a righwise manner.
> Αcording to the
> > > Right-Hand rule. How someone describes the movements of the clock
> in
> > > English?
> >
> > English is just as described above, "clockwise" and "counter
> clockwise".
> >  This is why translation is tricky.  The Greek should be translated
> into
> > the words for "rightwise" and "leftwise" you proposed rather than the
> > more wordy definition that you defined that is the literal meaning of
> > "clockwise" and "counter clockwise".
> >
> > > I guess using Chirality? Left-Handiness and Right-Handiness? So
> > > Left-hand and
> > > Right-hand rotation?  :D :D :D
> > >
> >
> >
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[Chris Pavlina]

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 07:34:25PM +0200, jp charras wrote:
> Le 18/07/2017 à 19:14, "Jörg Hermann" a écrit :
> > Translation of Clockwise and Counterclockwise are long texts in many 
> > languages:
> > Uhrzeigersinn and Gegenuhrzeigersinn in german for example.
> >  
> > If the icon depicts (dynamically) the sense of rotation, the text can be 
> > short as "Rotate" - which
> > is short in many languages.
> > Just an idea?
> >  
> > Jörg Hermann
> >  
> 
> I agree icons should show the rotation.
> 
> However Rotate Clockwise (or Counter Clockwise ) is still needed (just 
> "Rotate" is not acceptable)
> because icons are not always displayed:
> - On OSX by default (although they can be shown, this is an option in Kicad, 
> now)
> - On Linux, some WM do not display icons in menus.

What? WM has no control over menus.

> 
> Besides, English language is know for its short words and sentences.
> Translations are using most of time longer words and sentences, and this is 
> sometimes an issue in menus.
> We (translators) have to live with that.
> 
> -- 
> Jean-Pierre CHARRAS
> 
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Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[jp charras]

Le 18/07/2017 à 19:14, "Jörg Hermann" a écrit :
> Translation of Clockwise and Counterclockwise are long texts in many 
> languages:
> Uhrzeigersinn and Gegenuhrzeigersinn in german for example.
>  
> If the icon depicts (dynamically) the sense of rotation, the text can be 
> short as "Rotate" - which
> is short in many languages.
> Just an idea?
>  
> Jörg Hermann
>  

I agree icons should show the rotation.

However Rotate Clockwise (or Counter Clockwise ) is still needed (just "Rotate" 
is not acceptable)
because icons are not always displayed:
- On OSX by default (although they can be shown, this is an option in Kicad, 
now)
- On Linux, some WM do not display icons in menus.

Besides, English language is know for its short words and sentences.
Translations are using most of time longer words and sentences, and this is 
sometimes an issue in menus.
We (translators) have to live with that.

-- 
Jean-Pierre CHARRAS

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Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[Wayne Stambaugh]

Not sure English was a language before clocks.  Clocks have been around
for a long time.

On 7/18/2017 1:09 PM, firewalker wrote:
> How about before clocks? :P :P :P
> 
> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 7:49 PM, Wayne Stambaugh  > wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 7/18/2017 12:26 PM, firewalker wrote:
> >
> >
> > This probably should be left to the knowledge of the translators 
> rather
> > than try to come up with an English string that works in all cases
> > (which is doubtful).  I would think someone translating "clockwise" 
> and
> > "counter clockwise" to Greek would use your "rightwise" and 
> "leftwise"
> > translations.  I'm assuming that is how the direction of a clock's
> > movement is defined in Greek.
> >
> >
> > This is correct. We rarely use the clock's hands to indicate direction
> > of rotation.
> >
> > We say that the hands of a clocks move in a righwise manner. Αcording 
> to the
> > Right-Hand rule. How someone describes the movements of the clock in
> > English?
> 
> English is just as described above, "clockwise" and "counter clockwise".
>  This is why translation is tricky.  The Greek should be translated into
> the words for "rightwise" and "leftwise" you proposed rather than the
> more wordy definition that you defined that is the literal meaning of
> "clockwise" and "counter clockwise".
> 
> > I guess using Chirality? Left-Handiness and Right-Handiness? So
> > Left-hand and
> > Right-hand rotation?  :D :D :D
> >
> 
> 

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Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[Chris Pavlina]

Little known fact: no object prior to the invention of the clock had
ever rotated before, so words for this before then were not required~~~

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 08:09:52PM +0300, firewalker wrote:
> How about before clocks? :P :P :P
> 
> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 7:49 PM, Wayne Stambaugh 
> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > On 7/18/2017 12:26 PM, firewalker wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > This probably should be left to the knowledge of the translators
> > rather
> > > than try to come up with an English string that works in all cases
> > > (which is doubtful).  I would think someone translating "clockwise"
> > and
> > > "counter clockwise" to Greek would use your "rightwise" and
> > "leftwise"
> > > translations.  I'm assuming that is how the direction of a clock's
> > > movement is defined in Greek.
> > >
> > >
> > > This is correct. We rarely use the clock's hands to indicate direction
> > > of rotation.
> > >
> > > We say that the hands of a clocks move in a righwise manner. Αcording to
> > the
> > > Right-Hand rule. How someone describes the movements of the clock in
> > > English?
> >
> > English is just as described above, "clockwise" and "counter clockwise".
> >  This is why translation is tricky.  The Greek should be translated into
> > the words for "rightwise" and "leftwise" you proposed rather than the
> > more wordy definition that you defined that is the literal meaning of
> > "clockwise" and "counter clockwise".
> >
> > > I guess using Chirality? Left-Handiness and Right-Handiness? So
> > > Left-hand and
> > > Right-hand rotation?  :D :D :D
> > >
> >


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Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[Jörg Hermann]

Translation of Clockwise and Counterclockwise are long texts in many languages:

Uhrzeigersinn and Gegenuhrzeigersinn in german for example.

 

If the icon depicts (dynamically) the sense of rotation, the text can be short as "Rotate" - which is short in many languages.

Just an idea?

 


Jörg Hermann



 
 

Gesendet: Dienstag, 18. Juli 2017 um 17:31 Uhr
Von: "Wayne Stambaugh" <stambau...@gmail.com>
An: kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
Betreff: Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

On 7/18/2017 11:00 AM, jp charras wrote:
> Le 18/07/2017 à 16:31, Wayne Stambaugh a écrit :
>> I'm fine with the icon improvements. The rotate menu entry string
>> changes are technically incorrect. The rotation angle is user
>> configurable and may not always be 90 degrees so "Rotate 90 deg CW" is
>> not always going to be correct. That is why there is no rotation angle
>> in the current string. I would rather the string be "Rotate Clockwise"
>> or create the appropriate string at run time using the current user
>> rotation setting to "Rotate 45.0 deg Clockwise". Also, "CW" may not be
>> understood as clockwise or easily translatable in all languages. I
>> guess we cannot use the degrees character '°' due to font issues. It
>> would be nice to use the symbol rather than spell it out so the menu
>> string doesn't get too long.
>
> I confirm:
> * CW and CCW and not really translatable. (the best way is to have 2 different icons)


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Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[firewalker]

How about before clocks? :P :P :P

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 7:49 PM, Wayne Stambaugh 
wrote:

>
>
> On 7/18/2017 12:26 PM, firewalker wrote:
> >
> >
> > This probably should be left to the knowledge of the translators
> rather
> > than try to come up with an English string that works in all cases
> > (which is doubtful).  I would think someone translating "clockwise"
> and
> > "counter clockwise" to Greek would use your "rightwise" and
> "leftwise"
> > translations.  I'm assuming that is how the direction of a clock's
> > movement is defined in Greek.
> >
> >
> > This is correct. We rarely use the clock's hands to indicate direction
> > of rotation.
> >
> > We say that the hands of a clocks move in a righwise manner. Αcording to
> the
> > Right-Hand rule. How someone describes the movements of the clock in
> > English?
>
> English is just as described above, "clockwise" and "counter clockwise".
>  This is why translation is tricky.  The Greek should be translated into
> the words for "rightwise" and "leftwise" you proposed rather than the
> more wordy definition that you defined that is the literal meaning of
> "clockwise" and "counter clockwise".
>
> > I guess using Chirality? Left-Handiness and Right-Handiness? So
> > Left-hand and
> > Right-hand rotation?  :D :D :D
> >
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[Wayne Stambaugh]

On 7/18/2017 12:26 PM, firewalker wrote:
> 
> 
> This probably should be left to the knowledge of the translators rather
> than try to come up with an English string that works in all cases
> (which is doubtful).  I would think someone translating "clockwise" and
> "counter clockwise" to Greek would use your "rightwise" and "leftwise"
> translations.  I'm assuming that is how the direction of a clock's
> movement is defined in Greek.
> 
> 
> This is correct. We rarely use the clock's hands to indicate direction
> of rotation.
> 
> We say that the hands of a clocks move in a righwise manner. Αcording to the
> Right-Hand rule. How someone describes the movements of the clock in
> English?

English is just as described above, "clockwise" and "counter clockwise".
 This is why translation is tricky.  The Greek should be translated into
the words for "rightwise" and "leftwise" you proposed rather than the
more wordy definition that you defined that is the literal meaning of
"clockwise" and "counter clockwise".

> I guess using Chirality? Left-Handiness and Right-Handiness? So
> Left-hand and
> Right-hand rotation?  :D :D :D
> 

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Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[firewalker]

>
> This probably should be left to the knowledge of the translators rather
> than try to come up with an English string that works in all cases
> (which is doubtful).  I would think someone translating "clockwise" and
> "counter clockwise" to Greek would use your "rightwise" and "leftwise"
> translations.  I'm assuming that is how the direction of a clock's
> movement is defined in Greek.
>

This is correct. We rarely use the clock's hands to indicate direction of
rotation.

We say that the hands of a clocks move in a righwise manner. Αcording to the
Right-Hand rule. How someone describes the movements of the clock in
English?
I guess using Chirality? Left-Handiness and Right-Handiness? So Left-hand
and
Right-hand rotation?  :D :D :D
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Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[Wayne Stambaugh]

On 7/18/2017 11:46 AM, firewalker wrote:
> Something containing Left and Right is easier to translate I believe.
> Leftwise and Rightwise perhaps?

I cannot ever recall the terms "leftwise" and "rightwise" ever being
used in the English language.  I think this would be confusing for
native English speakers.

> 
> For example in Greek "clockwise" and "counter clockwise" need many words
> to describe.
> 
> "Clockwise" is: "Σύμφωνα με τους δείκτες του ρολογιού"

And I thought English was an excessively wordy language. ;)

> 
> But
> 
> "Leftwise" is: "Αριστερόστροφα"
> "Rightwise" is: "Δεξιόστροφα"
> 
> Both single words.

This probably should be left to the knowledge of the translators rather
than try to come up with an English string that works in all cases
(which is doubtful).  I would think someone translating "clockwise" and
"counter clockwise" to Greek would use your "rightwise" and "leftwise"
translations.  I'm assuming that is how the direction of a clock's
movement is defined in Greek.

> 
> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 6:31 PM, Wayne Stambaugh  > wrote:
> 
> On 7/18/2017 11:00 AM, jp charras wrote:
> > Le 18/07/2017 à 16:31, Wayne Stambaugh a écrit :
> >> I'm fine with the icon improvements.  The rotate menu entry string
> >> changes are technically incorrect.  The rotation angle is user
> >> configurable and may not always be 90 degrees so "Rotate 90 deg CW" is
> >> not always going to be correct.  That is why there is no rotation angle
> >> in the current string.  I would rather the string be "Rotate Clockwise"
> >> or create the appropriate string at run time using the current user
> >> rotation setting to "Rotate 45.0 deg Clockwise".  Also, "CW" may not be
> >> understood as clockwise or easily translatable in all languages.  I
> >> guess we cannot use the degrees character '°' due to font issues.  It
> >> would be nice to use the symbol rather than spell it out so the menu
> >> string doesn't get too long.
> >
> > I confirm:
> > * CW and CCW and not really translatable. (the best way is to have 2 
> different icons)
> 
> What about "clockwise" and "counter clockwise", are they translatable?
> I imagine they would be.  I prefer to avoid abbreviations except for
> units whenever possible for this reason.
> 
> > * the degrees character '°' is not accepted in strings to
> translate by our translation tools.
> > AFAIK, only ASCII7 chars are accepted.
> >
> >>
> >> On 7/4/2017 12:03 PM, Fabrizio Tappero wrote:
> >>> Hello,
> >>> following up on the ongoing effort of reducing kicad icons and
> making
> >>> kicad UI more usable I am sending this patch.
> >>>
> >>> Essentially this patch simplify several icons of the right click
> menu
> >>> of both eeschema, pcbnew and lib component SW.
> >>>
> >>> Few minor icon look improvements  are also present.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers
> >>> Fabrizio
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> 
> >>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> 
> >>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> 
> >>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> 
> >>>
> >>
> >> ___
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> 
> >> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> 
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> >>
> >
> >
> 
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> 
> 

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Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[jp charras]

Le 18/07/2017 à 17:31, Wayne Stambaugh a écrit :
> On 7/18/2017 11:00 AM, jp charras wrote:
>> Le 18/07/2017 à 16:31, Wayne Stambaugh a écrit :
>>> I'm fine with the icon improvements.  The rotate menu entry string
>>> changes are technically incorrect.  The rotation angle is user
>>> configurable and may not always be 90 degrees so "Rotate 90 deg CW" is
>>> not always going to be correct.  That is why there is no rotation angle
>>> in the current string.  I would rather the string be "Rotate Clockwise"
>>> or create the appropriate string at run time using the current user
>>> rotation setting to "Rotate 45.0 deg Clockwise".  Also, "CW" may not be
>>> understood as clockwise or easily translatable in all languages.  I
>>> guess we cannot use the degrees character '°' due to font issues.  It
>>> would be nice to use the symbol rather than spell it out so the menu
>>> string doesn't get too long.
>>
>> I confirm:
>> * CW and CCW and not really translatable. (the best way is to have 2 
>> different icons)
> 
> What about "clockwise" and "counter clockwise", are they translatable?
> I imagine they would be.  I prefer to avoid abbreviations except for
> units whenever possible for this reason.

Yes, in French for instance, by "sens horaire" and "sens antihoraire".
(There is no corresponding abbreviation for CW and CCW).

> 
>> * the degrees character '°' is not accepted in strings to translate by our 
>> translation tools.
>> AFAIK, only ASCII7 chars are accepted.
>>
>>>
>>> On 7/4/2017 12:03 PM, Fabrizio Tappero wrote:
 Hello,
 following up on the ongoing effort of reducing kicad icons and making
 kicad UI more usable I am sending this patch.

 Essentially this patch simplify several icons of the right click menu
 of both eeschema, pcbnew and lib component SW.

 Few minor icon look improvements  are also present.

 Cheers
 Fabrizio



-- 
Jean-Pierre CHARRAS

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Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[firewalker]

Something containing Left and Right is easier to translate I believe.
Leftwise and Rightwise perhaps?

For example in Greek "clockwise" and "counter clockwise" need many words to
describe.

"Clockwise" is: "Σύμφωνα με τους δείκτες του ρολογιού"

But

"Leftwise" is: "Αριστερόστροφα"
"Rightwise" is: "Δεξιόστροφα"

Both single words.

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 6:31 PM, Wayne Stambaugh 
wrote:

> On 7/18/2017 11:00 AM, jp charras wrote:
> > Le 18/07/2017 à 16:31, Wayne Stambaugh a écrit :
> >> I'm fine with the icon improvements.  The rotate menu entry string
> >> changes are technically incorrect.  The rotation angle is user
> >> configurable and may not always be 90 degrees so "Rotate 90 deg CW" is
> >> not always going to be correct.  That is why there is no rotation angle
> >> in the current string.  I would rather the string be "Rotate Clockwise"
> >> or create the appropriate string at run time using the current user
> >> rotation setting to "Rotate 45.0 deg Clockwise".  Also, "CW" may not be
> >> understood as clockwise or easily translatable in all languages.  I
> >> guess we cannot use the degrees character '°' due to font issues.  It
> >> would be nice to use the symbol rather than spell it out so the menu
> >> string doesn't get too long.
> >
> > I confirm:
> > * CW and CCW and not really translatable. (the best way is to have 2
> different icons)
>
> What about "clockwise" and "counter clockwise", are they translatable?
> I imagine they would be.  I prefer to avoid abbreviations except for
> units whenever possible for this reason.
>
> > * the degrees character '°' is not accepted in strings to translate by
> our translation tools.
> > AFAIK, only ASCII7 chars are accepted.
> >
> >>
> >> On 7/4/2017 12:03 PM, Fabrizio Tappero wrote:
> >>> Hello,
> >>> following up on the ongoing effort of reducing kicad icons and making
> >>> kicad UI more usable I am sending this patch.
> >>>
> >>> Essentially this patch simplify several icons of the right click menu
> >>> of both eeschema, pcbnew and lib component SW.
> >>>
> >>> Few minor icon look improvements  are also present.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers
> >>> Fabrizio
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> >>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> >>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> >>>
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
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> >>
> >
> >
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[Wayne Stambaugh]

On 7/18/2017 11:00 AM, jp charras wrote:
> Le 18/07/2017 à 16:31, Wayne Stambaugh a écrit :
>> I'm fine with the icon improvements.  The rotate menu entry string
>> changes are technically incorrect.  The rotation angle is user
>> configurable and may not always be 90 degrees so "Rotate 90 deg CW" is
>> not always going to be correct.  That is why there is no rotation angle
>> in the current string.  I would rather the string be "Rotate Clockwise"
>> or create the appropriate string at run time using the current user
>> rotation setting to "Rotate 45.0 deg Clockwise".  Also, "CW" may not be
>> understood as clockwise or easily translatable in all languages.  I
>> guess we cannot use the degrees character '°' due to font issues.  It
>> would be nice to use the symbol rather than spell it out so the menu
>> string doesn't get too long.
> 
> I confirm:
> * CW and CCW and not really translatable. (the best way is to have 2 
> different icons)

What about "clockwise" and "counter clockwise", are they translatable?
I imagine they would be.  I prefer to avoid abbreviations except for
units whenever possible for this reason.

> * the degrees character '°' is not accepted in strings to translate by our 
> translation tools.
> AFAIK, only ASCII7 chars are accepted.
> 
>>
>> On 7/4/2017 12:03 PM, Fabrizio Tappero wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>> following up on the ongoing effort of reducing kicad icons and making
>>> kicad UI more usable I am sending this patch.
>>>
>>> Essentially this patch simplify several icons of the right click menu
>>> of both eeschema, pcbnew and lib component SW.
>>>
>>> Few minor icon look improvements  are also present.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Fabrizio
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>
>>
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>>
> 
> 

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Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[jp charras]

Le 18/07/2017 à 16:31, Wayne Stambaugh a écrit :
> I'm fine with the icon improvements.  The rotate menu entry string
> changes are technically incorrect.  The rotation angle is user
> configurable and may not always be 90 degrees so "Rotate 90 deg CW" is
> not always going to be correct.  That is why there is no rotation angle
> in the current string.  I would rather the string be "Rotate Clockwise"
> or create the appropriate string at run time using the current user
> rotation setting to "Rotate 45.0 deg Clockwise".  Also, "CW" may not be
> understood as clockwise or easily translatable in all languages.  I
> guess we cannot use the degrees character '°' due to font issues.  It
> would be nice to use the symbol rather than spell it out so the menu
> string doesn't get too long.

I confirm:
* CW and CCW and not really translatable. (the best way is to have 2 different 
icons)
* the degrees character '°' is not accepted in strings to translate by our 
translation tools.
AFAIK, only ASCII7 chars are accepted.

> 
> On 7/4/2017 12:03 PM, Fabrizio Tappero wrote:
>> Hello,
>> following up on the ongoing effort of reducing kicad icons and making
>> kicad UI more usable I am sending this patch.
>>
>> Essentially this patch simplify several icons of the right click menu
>> of both eeschema, pcbnew and lib component SW.
>>
>> Few minor icon look improvements  are also present.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Fabrizio
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>
> 
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-- 
Jean-Pierre CHARRAS

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Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[Wayne Stambaugh]

I'm fine with the icon improvements.  The rotate menu entry string
changes are technically incorrect.  The rotation angle is user
configurable and may not always be 90 degrees so "Rotate 90 deg CW" is
not always going to be correct.  That is why there is no rotation angle
in the current string.  I would rather the string be "Rotate Clockwise"
or create the appropriate string at run time using the current user
rotation setting to "Rotate 45.0 deg Clockwise".  Also, "CW" may not be
understood as clockwise or easily translatable in all languages.  I
guess we cannot use the degrees character '°' due to font issues.  It
would be nice to use the symbol rather than spell it out so the menu
string doesn't get too long.

On 7/4/2017 12:03 PM, Fabrizio Tappero wrote:
> Hello,
> following up on the ongoing effort of reducing kicad icons and making
> kicad UI more usable I am sending this patch.
> 
> Essentially this patch simplify several icons of the right click menu
> of both eeschema, pcbnew and lib component SW.
> 
> Few minor icon look improvements  are also present.
> 
> Cheers
> Fabrizio
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Kicad-developers] [PATCH] simplied right click menu icons

[Fabrizio Tappero]

gentle reminder.

cheers
Fabrizio


On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 6:03 PM, Fabrizio Tappero  wrote:

> Hello,
> following up on the ongoing effort of reducing kicad icons and making
> kicad UI more usable I am sending this patch.
>
> Essentially this patch simplify several icons of the right click menu
> of both eeschema, pcbnew and lib component SW.
>
> Few minor icon look improvements  are also present.
>
> Cheers
> Fabrizio
>
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