KR> Possible replacement for a whiskey compass?

[Flesner]

At 07:48 PM 9/19/2015, you wrote:
>One other concern I have with it is that the sensor inside it is most
>likely orientated so that the face of it is parallel to the ground as it
>would be if you were holding it in your hand.  In that orientation you
>would not be able to see it in the plane unless you put it in your lap.
+++

For sake of discussion, not an endorsement, the following is on their 
web page.  If it's true, it is much more accurate then the $260 
vertical card compass on my dash that, basically, is trash.  Also, 
the CR2032 battery is very common.  You probably carry a "backup" in 
your car remote in your pocket.  Some remotes use two of them.

Larry Flesner




Q:
1 answer

Does it give accurate directions in any position and inside a car or truck?

by
JessC
  - Silver Spring, MD
Staff Answer

A:
This Brunton Nomad digital compass will give directions to 1 degree 
of accuracy in any position and inside a vehicle.
by
ProductExpert43

KR> Possible replacement for a whiskey compass?

[Dj Merrill]

On 9/19/2015 6:22 PM, Jeff Scott via KRnet wrote:
> You can be right with your interpretation, but arguing with the DAR isn't 
> likely to get you an Airworthiness Certificate.


No need to argue.  Simply point the DAR to the Advisory Circular I 
posted earlier.  A magnetometer like those used in EFIS installations is 
an acceptable "magnetic direction finder" per FAA headquarters.  The DAR 
doesn't have the authority to interpret this differently.

-Dj

-- 
Dj Merrill - N1JOV - EAA Chapter 87
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/

KR> Possible replacement for a whiskey compass?

[peter]

For what it's worth, a small $5 car compass satisfied my DAR. I use the 
superior heading info on my gps to navigate in flight ( no precession, no 
deviation, not influenced by extraneous electrical fields). Peter

KR> Possible_replacement_for_a_whiskey_compass?

[brian.kraut at eamanufacturing.com]

Oh, and this discussion reminds me of a funny story.

I work at a big marine show in New Orleans every year and a lot of the
companies that have booths at the show give away pens, coozies, etc,
with their logo on it.  One year Sperry Marine, which is the inventor of
the gyrocompass and they sell marine magnetic compasses and other
navigation equipment, was giving away a small keychain magnetic compass
with their name on it.  Only problem is that the key ring on it was
steel so no matter which way you turned it north was always pointing at
the key ring.

Good idea from their marketing department, but they get a big zero on
the execution. 

KR> Possible replacement for a whiskey compass?

[Flesner]

What I said was what I was taught many decades ago, not an inference.
If you know otherwise, so be it.   I have no intention to get into a 
pi--ing contest with anyone over this or anything else.  I am not the FAA.
+++
Yes, lets not get in to that type of contest.  At my age I no longer 
have the equipment to  participate.   It was not a personal attach so 
no need to get  defensive.

This thread started with a poorly stated question, that being a 
"whiskey compass".  There is no requirement for a "Whisky" compass ( 
or wet compass) , simply a "magnetic direction indicator".  To be 
absolutely correct  the fluid is alcohol, kerosene, or some similar 
substance.  I was not replying to wet, dry, or any other type, but to 
your reply (stated below) assigning requirements to a compass 
(magnetic direction indicator) that simply are not stated in the 
regs.  If you were taught many years ago that the qualifications 
stated below are requirements then I would infer that your were 
instructed incorrectly.  No fault of the student.  As a final note, a 
wet compass can fail.  I have 4 dry compasses in the garage and a 
refill kit in the tool chest to recover from such failures.

Larry Flesner


>My understanding is that the intent of a (wet) compass requirement 
>is as a last resort/emergency/always available navigation tool - 
>with the fluid serving as a dampening influence compared to a dry 
>compass with no dampening.  In order for any other type to qualify, 
>there must be no external power needed to make it operational. 
>Therefore, unless one of the magnetometers you have researched will 
>always operate reliably without externally supplied power, then no, 
>I can't agree.
>+

KR> Possible replacement for a whiskey compass?

[brian.kraut at eamanufacturing.com]

I also almost never look at my compass, but keep in mind that when ATC
tells you to turn to a heading they are referring to a magnetic heading,
not course, which is what you are getting from the GPS.  Here in FL they
are pretty close, flying in Alaska, not so much.


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: KR> Possible replacement for a whiskey compass?
From: peter via KRnet 
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: Sat, September 19, 2015 3:48 pm
To: krnet at list.krnet.org
Cc: peter 

For what it's worth, a small $5 car compass satisfied my DAR. I use the
superior heading info on my gps to navigate in flight ( no precession,
no deviation, not influenced by extraneous electrical fields). Peter


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KR> Possible replacement for a whiskey compass?

[brian.kraut at eamanufacturing.com]

The device is a flux gate compass.  I would think that the FAA would
want something that does not require power at all.  That is kind of the
point of having a magnetic compass.  Since it is battery powered you
might be able to get away with it, but I would think carrying an extra
battery and having the means to change it in flight would be required.

As far as a correction card is concerned, yes, you would need one.  The
fluxgate compass is affected by external magnetic materials in the plane
just like a regular magnetic compass is.  Flux gate compasses that are
made for automotive and marine use have calibration procedures that
internally correct the readings, but even very good ones are a few
degrees off in some direction.  I would suspect that this handheld one
would not have compensation built in because it is intended to be hand
held and not fixed mounted where the the external magnetic influences
are always the same.

One other concern I have with it is that the sensor inside it is most
likely orientated so that the face of it is parallel to the ground as it
would be if you were holding it in your hand.  In that orientation you
would not be able to see it in the plane unless you put it in your lap. 
In your phone there are multiple sensors in different orientations so
you can hold it vertical or horizontal.

My day job is in shipboard electronics.  I realize that marine rules and
FAA rules are not the same, but for ships the requirement for a compass
means a magnetic compass.  Even ships with gyrocompasses are required to
have magnetic compasses.  Some classes of ships are also required to
have transmitting magnetic compasses with sensors on them as an
alternate method to give heading data to the radar if the gyro fails.

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: KR> Possible replacement for a whiskey compass?
From: Mike T via KRnet 
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: Sat, September 19, 2015 2:46 pm
To: KRnet 
Cc: Mike T 

The device whose ad I originally posted l is battery powered. Am I right
to assume that qualifies as "no external power? "

I was planning to have no conventional instruments, but to replace the
fight instruments wirh a Dynon EFIS, which has a dedicated battery
backup.
(By the time I'm ready for this, they will be available used or NOS).

I also have an old Magellan backpacker's GPS 300 that I was thinking of
using as a backup. It's primitive by today's standards as a GPS, but it
gives your altitude and shows your compass direction whenever you're
moving.

Mike Taglieri
On Sep 19, 2015 2:36 PM, "gluejam via KRnet" 
wrote:

>
> My understanding is that the intent of a (wet) compass requirement is as a
> last resort/emergency/always available navigation tool - with the fluid
> serving as a dampening influence compared to a dry compass with no
> dampening. In order for any other type to qualify, there must be no
> external power needed to make it operational. Therefore, unless one of the
> magnetometers you have researched will always operate reliably without
> externally supplied power, then no, I can't agree.
>
> There are probably other views on this topic, though.
>
> George
>
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KR> Possible replacement for a whiskey compass?

[Mike T]

The device whose ad I originally posted l is battery powered.  Am I right
to assume that qualifies as "no external power? "

I was planning to have no conventional  instruments,  but to replace the
fight instruments wirh a Dynon EFIS, which has a dedicated battery backup.
(By the time I'm ready for this, they will be available used or NOS).

I also have an old Magellan backpacker's  GPS 300 that I was thinking of
using as a backup.  It's primitive by today's standards as a GPS, but it
gives your altitude and shows your compass direction whenever you're
moving.

Mike Taglieri
On Sep 19, 2015 2:36 PM, "gluejam via KRnet"  wrote:

>
> My understanding is that the intent of a (wet) compass requirement is as a
> last resort/emergency/always available navigation tool - with the fluid
> serving as a dampening influence compared to a dry compass with no
> dampening.  In order for any other type to qualify, there must be no
> external power needed to make it operational. Therefore, unless one of the
> magnetometers you have researched will always operate reliably without
> externally supplied power, then no, I can't agree.
>
> There are probably other views on this topic, though.
>
> George
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
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> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
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>

KR> Possible replacement for a whiskey compass?

[Dj Merrill]

On 9/19/2015 2:36 PM, gluejam via KRnet wrote:
> In order for any other type to qualify, there must be no external power
> needed to make it operational. Therefore, unless one of the
> magnetometers you have researched will always operate reliably without
> externally supplied power, then no, I can't agree.


There is no legal requirement for a non-powered compass.  A powered 
compass meets the intent and letter of the requirement.

  AC 23.1311-1C section 8.8:

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%2023.1311-1C.pdf

8.8.1  General.
a.
The operating rules, such as part 91 and part 135, specify the minimum 
required
equipment that must be installed in part 23 airplanes based on the 
operation, such as VFR or IFR.
Under VFR operation, part 91, ? 91.205, requires a magnetic direction 
indicator (that is normally
intended to be a compass) for heading information.  Under IFR operation, 
part 91, ? 91.205,
requires a gyroscopically stabilized heading system.  Section 
23.1303(c), Amendment 23-62,
amended the requirement from ?A direction indicator (non-stabilized 
magnetic compass)? to ?A
magnetic direction indicator.?  As new technology becomes more 
affordable for part 23 airplanes,
many electronic flight instrument systems will use magnetically 
stabilized direction indicators (or
electric compass systems) to measure and indicate the airplane heading 
to provide better
performance.


8.8.2  Magnetic Non-Stabilized Direction Indicator.
   A magnetic non-stabilized
direction indicator that is required by ? 23.1303 should have an 
accuracy of 10 degrees or have a correction card


-Dj

-- 
Dj Merrill - N1JOV - EAA Chapter 87
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/

KR> Possible replacement for a whiskey compass?

[Virgil N. Salisbury]

Vertical Card Compasses do not have Whiskey
dampening, Virg


On 9/19/2015 3:47 PM, Flesner via KRnet wro

te:
> At 01:36 PM 9/19/2015, you wrote:
>> My understanding is that the intent of a (wet) compass requirement is
>> as a last resort/emergency/always available navigation tool - with the
>> fluid serving as a dampening influence compared to a dry compass with
>> no dampening.  In order for any other type to qualify, there must be
>> no external power needed to make it operational. Therefore, unless one
>> of the magnetometers you have researched will always operate reliably
>> without externally supplied power, then no, I can't agree.
>> George
> 

KR> South Carolina KR?

[bjoenunley]

Dear Dan,
I would like to visit if you are available
Bjoenunley at gmail.com?
Joe Nunley?CW2 US Army RetiredBaker JROTC Instructor?Baker Florida?

 Original message 
From: Dan Heath via KRnet  
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: 09/19/2015  10:25 AM  (GMT-06:00) 
To: 'KRnet'  
Cc: Dan Heath  
Subject: Re: KR> South Carolina KR? 

I have a KR2 based at KCUB.? The wings, cowling and engine have been removed.? 
However, if you are wanting to see how one sits, you are welcome to come by.? 
Just reply to me at Danrh at Windstream.net and we can set up a meet.



See N64KR at?  http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the 
pics 



Peoples Choice at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN 

Best KR at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN 

Best Interior at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN 

Best Paint at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN 

Best Firwwall Forward at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN 



Best Interior and Panel at 2008 ? KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN





Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC





-Original Message-





??? 

Does anyone have a KR2 in South Carolina?

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KR> Possible replacement for a whiskey compass?

[Flesner]

At 01:36 PM 9/19/2015, you wrote:
>My understanding is that the intent of a (wet) compass requirement 
>is as a last resort/emergency/always available navigation tool - 
>with the fluid serving as a dampening influence compared to a dry 
>compass with no dampening.  In order for any other type to qualify, 
>there must be no external power needed to make it operational. 
>Therefore, unless one of the magnetometers you have researched will 
>always operate reliably without externally supplied power, then no, 
>I can't agree.
>George


I think you're reading too much "intent" in to item 3 below.  These 
types of instruments weren't available when the reg's were written. 
What part of "magnetic direction indicator"  does the new instrument 
not meet?  It says nothing about requiring it to be a wet compass or 
requiring some level of reliability.  The only requirement I've ever 
seen is a compass correction card.  If this instrument is accurate to 
within one or two degrees I doubt if even that is needed.  If the FAA 
disagrees they need to come back with a description of exactly what 
they require.  Don't impose any self inflicting restrictions. The 
reg's say "magnetic direction indicator".  Go with that and make the 
FAA justify a "no" answer.

A friend of mine had a restriction on the 40 hour test phase on his 
RV10 of operation from a single named airport.  I told him that's not 
in the reg's and was simply a restriction put in by the designated 
inspector.  When he went to the FSDO to get his mechanic's license 
for the 10, he questioned the FSDO rep and she said , yes, is in the 
regs.  He asked her to look it up.  She did and came back and removed 
the restriction.  He then asked her  about a second pilot during 
flight testing (40 hours) and she said "no, that's only for multi 
engine aircraft".  Some of these people don't know what they are 
talking about.  AC no. 90-116 has been out for one year now and she 
apparently has no knowledge of it.  Really?  Maybe a government shut 
down is in order.

Larry



FAA requirements as listed in the regs (part 91).

(1) Airspeed indicator.

(2) Altimeter.

(3) Magnetic direction indicator.

(4) Tachometer for each engine.

(5) Oil pressure gauge for each engine using pressure system.

(6) Temperature gauge for each liquid-cooled engine.

(7) Oil temperature gauge for each air-cooled engine.

(8) Manifold pressure gauge for each altitude engine.

(9) Fuel gauge indicating the quantity of fuel in each tank.

(10) Landing gear position indicator, if the aircraft has a 
retractable landing gear.

KR> Possible replacement for a whiskey compass?

[gluejam]

Larry:

I was replying to Dan H's post re: magnetometers as alternate, and 
should have made that clear.   The comment "(dry)" was with respect to 
the "whiskey" qualifier in the subject line, and "wet" referred to the 
dampening agent used in the typical "whiskey" compass.

What I said was what I was taught many decades ago, not an inference.  
If you know otherwise, so be it.   I have no intention to get into a 
pi--ing contest with anyone over this or anything else.  I am not the FAA.

And yes, I know there are other types of compasses which do not use 
liquid dampeners... but that was not Dan's point, as I understand it.  
He could very well be correct - or not.   Who knows what the FAA will 
approve tomorrow?

George





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KR> Possible replacement for a whiskey compass?

[Dan Heath]

I have just spent over an hour searching for information on 3, and my
conclusion is that a magnetometer qualifies for this purpose.  Does anyone
think otherwise?



See N64KR at   http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on
the pics 



2015 KR Gathering - McMinnville, OR.  September 3 - 6 -- See U There.



Peoples Choice at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN 

Best KR at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN 

Best Interior at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN 

Best Paint at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN 

Best Firwwall Forward at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN 



Best Interior and Panel at 2008 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN





Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC







-Original Message-



+



FAA requirements as listed in the regs (part 91).  If it's magnetic it
should be legal.  No required spec's given other than magnetic.  I guess you
could still carry the whisky if needed for emergencys. :-)



Larry Flesner





(1) Airspeed indicator.



(2) Altimeter.



(3) Magnetic direction indicator.

KR> Possible replacement for a whiskey compass?

[gluejam]

My understanding is that the intent of a (wet) compass requirement is as 
a last resort/emergency/always available navigation tool - with the 
fluid serving as a dampening influence compared to a dry compass with no 
dampening.  In order for any other type to qualify, there must be no 
external power needed to make it operational. Therefore, unless one of 
the magnetometers you have researched will always operate reliably 
without externally supplied power, then no, I can't agree.

There are probably other views on this topic, though.

George

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KR> South Carolina KR?

[Dan Heath]

I have a KR2 based at KCUB.  The wings, cowling and engine have been removed.  
However, if you are wanting to see how one sits, you are welcome to come by.  
Just reply to me at Danrh at Windstream.net and we can set up a meet.



See N64KR at   http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the 
pics 



Peoples Choice at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN 

Best KR at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN 

Best Interior at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN 

Best Paint at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN 

Best Firwwall Forward at 2013 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN 



Best Interior and Panel at 2008 ? KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il - MVN





Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC





-Original Message-







Does anyone have a KR2 in South Carolina?

KR> Motor/case mount

[stefkr2 at kpnmail.nl]

Hi Paul,
I saw your project a few years ago with an running engine. How far are you now? 
I am bussy to make the engine mount at this moment.
I have set the point at 2016 Hopefully hahaha.
See you
Stef
--
Steph and his dad are building the KR-2S see   
http://www.masttotaalconcept.nl/kr2




>Origineel Bericht
>Van : krnet at list.krnet.org
>Datum : 18/09/2015 22:32
>Aan : krnet at list.krnet.org
>Cc : pk.smith at bigpond.net.au
>Onderwerp : Re: KR> Motor/case mount
>
>Hi Mike, although O-200 you might get some clues here.
>http://kr2spacemodulator.blogspot.com.au/2014/01/kr2s-engine-mount-remanufac
>ture.html
>Paul.
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Mike Arnold via KRnet
>Hey KR ers how do you get the motor centered if you are biulding your own
>Diehl and VW motor mount?
>___
>
>
>___
>Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
>To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
>please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
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>options
>

KR> Motor/case mount

[Paul & Karen Smith]

Hi Mike, although O-200 you might get some clues here.
http://kr2spacemodulator.blogspot.com.au/2014/01/kr2s-engine-mount-remanufac
ture.html
Paul.

-Original Message-
From: Mike Arnold via KRnet
Hey KR ers how do you get the motor centered if you are biulding your own
Diehl and VW motor mount?
___

KR> ForeFlight vs iFly

[laser147 at juno.com]

I've been looking at things to replace my Anywheremap ATC for quite a
while.  I haven't been flying much the last couple years but my trip to
Oregon has re-invigorated my level of enthusiasm so am again looking at a
replacement for my ATC.  The database is way out of date and no updates
are available.   The Control Vision website is still up and the user
forum on the website is still going - although deserted.  When you log in
you hear an echo it's so empty.  Even the most diehard Anywheremap fans
have migrated to ForeFlight and the other EFB solutions thanks to nobody
being in the office when it comes to customer service, updates, and
software upgrades.  They are still flogging their leftover systems and
buggy Android & iOS software.   For KR people still designing their
panels though, please take a look at an old product of theirs called an
EXPBUS 2V.  It's an interesting looking all-in-one switch panel with
built-in breakers, switches, and comes with a tray mount.  Here's the
link although Juno will break it by putting a space somewhere.  Take the
space out and it should work or just Google "Control Vision EXPBUS" and
you'll find it.  

http://store.controlvision.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=CME
XP_110#page=General-Info

Go through the links and you'll find the schematics and all the rest of
the information on it.  It states on the site that inventory is low so if
this looks like something that would work for you it might be the last
chance to order one.  I'm not recommending the thing since I don't know
enough about it, but it looks interesting.  If I were a builder and
thinking about my panel, I'd want to take a look.

***

My old Anywheremap 4.8" screen ATC is just the right size for my cockpit.
 I've considered the iPad Mini-sized devices and the 7" iFly.  Mounted as
I've got my ATC, these larger screens would block out my panel.  A leg
mount might work but wouldn't know until I tried it.   iFly makes another
model however that's the same size as my ATC and would fit my current
mount.  It's called the 520 and has all the goodies of the larger
version, plus it's cheaper.  Their latest model, the 740, is 1300 nits
and is truly sunlight readable so that's a  feature that complicates
trying to decide between the two.   Somehow I've done just fine with my
ATC and whatever puny nittage it has.  I've got a glare shield on it like
the old marine radars had and that's helped a lot except when the sun is
behind me.  The Anywheremap software design was and is really nice.  It's
a shame that the owner of the company has allowed that product to wither.
 But wither it has, and along with Mark Jones I'm looking for my next new
navigator. 

It wasn't very long ago we were paying close attention to chart
expiration and going through the dreaded  routine of updating Jepp chart
binders.  Getting someone else to perform that onerous task was reason
enough to get married, not that long ago.  We use these electronic
marvels now as if we've always had them.   My ATC was a very hot item in
2007.  The Lowrance 600C that I'd bought the year before was that year's
marvel and since then it's all just accelerated.  Now I can't even find
the 600C . . . where is that thing anyway? 

Mike
KSEE



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