KR> VW Engines

[Mark Langford]

Jeff Lange wrote:

 > Too bad the "soon to be officially mine" Corvair powered KR has taken 
to circulating the better part of the cam gear teeth throughout the engine?

That sounds like an engine that was run without a front bearing for some 
period of time.  The nose of the crank moves so far up and down that it 
frets the teeth, triggering an eventual failure.  I know two guys on 
these list that know a lot more about it than I do...

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
http://www.n56ml.com

KR> VW Engines

[Jeff Lange]

Wow, lots of things I could add and say about this thread ; )

Oddly enough, I am in Mark?s camp when it comes to turbocharging a VW in a 
plane, at least at this point. While I have about 8 flight hours on my turbo 
motor, I don?t/can?t approach the plane like I used to. It used to be a pretty 
fast sport plane that I trusted, even when I ran it wide open at 4100rpms for 
hours on end. With the turbo, its an entirely different animal. I wear a 
fireproof suite, shoes, gloves and a helmet every time I fly it. I may get more 
comfortable with it, bit its got to prove itself first. 

I will contested the idea that the VW cannot run cool at high RPMs. I don?t 
have a ton of time on my engine (about 80 hours) before I tore it down for the 
turbo build. I can tell you a few things however. During that time, I usually 
cruised it at 3600 RPMs, sometimes slower to make fuel stops and it has spent 
many hours above 4000. It ran the same temps at 3200R RPM?s as it did wide open 
spinning up to 4100 straight and level, more in a full power race descent. The 
bottom end looked like the day it was first put together.

Working on cleaning up the heads is a big deal when it comes to getting them to 
cool. I have a set of Revmaster 049?s on the plane now and have been abusing 
them pretty badly during flight testing with the turbo. They have seen 500F a 
few times at 45? MAP, but for now at lest have had zero issues with the valves. 
The did require a bit of clean up, but nothing crazy. 

Too bad the "soon to be officially mine" Corvair powered KR has taken to 
circulating the better part of the cam gear teeth throughout the engine? But 
that is a different story for a different thread ; )

Jeff Lange
Race 64 - Skye Racer
Blog: http://schmleff.blogspot.com 
Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/schmleff 

> On Jun 21, 2016, at 7:13 PM, Mark Langford via KRnet  list.krnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Some random thoughts that I feel must be said:
> 
> Turbocharging a VW would be a recipe for disaster IMHO, and insurance that 
> you wouldn't do much flying.  Don't forget...it's all about flying, not how 
> fast you can say your plane would go if it were running.
> 
> GPASC has proprietary parts...flywheel, adapter, hub, crank, bearing, and 
> case come to mind quickly.  Having built one of these several times, I'm not 
> a fan of the keyway setup.  The slots are in hub and crank are shallow, and 
> the key is provided as a square key that you need to grind (or mill) down to 
> something way thinner to fit between hub and crank. Getting a good fit with 
> maximum material is trial and error. The key is only there to ensure the 
> timing mark stays constant if the hub is removed.  The taper is where the 
> power is transferred.
> 
> Crank and hub are also matched sets due to tolerances on the angle.  The hub 
> still needs to be lapped onto the crank, which is a two-hour chore by hand.
> 
> The hub/bearing clearance is not consistent. The crank and bearing are sold 
> as a set, and getting a new bearing for an existing crank is iffy.  I've 
> torqued the case to 8 ft-lbs and the crank still spun, then when I torqued it 
> to 14 the crank seized.  No amount of refitting cured that one.   I'm not a 
> great fan of the prop bolt...1/2" RH threads. Revmaster's is .75" LH threads, 
> which can be torqued higher for a better connection. Otherwise, a simple 
> engine backfire can unscrew the prop, despite proper torque and Loctite 620 
> on the bolt  threads.
> 
> If the crankshaft's oil seal leaks, the hub isn't going to come off without a 
> 20 ton press, so tear the engine down to replace the seals, and hope the next 
> seals work better.  My luck with those seals has not been good either.  
> That's the only place my engine has lost oil.
> 
> If you're working with the hub before it's torqued and remove it while the 
> keyway is facing down, the tiny key falls down into the cavity below the cam 
> gear, and you get to tear the engine down again to retrieve it. Yes, I'm 
> stupid, but it could happen to you as well.
> 
> Buy the GPASC manual and read it.  There's a lot of trial and error work to 
> be done in there, not to mention the basics of case and other clearancing 
> when boring and stroking a VW engine.  I guess the 2700cc Corvair really 
> spoiled me...no machine work or trial and error.
> 
> Generally, VW heads have a tiny area of air passages between the top and 
> bottom of the head, even after serious deflashing.  This has gotten even 
> worse over the years, rather than better, now that factory VW heads have 
> dried up. Corvairs have way more cooling passage area, hence they cool far 
> better.  N56ML would fly around on the hottest of days at cruise speed and it 
> might be 320F.  This VW is closer to 380F.  The "cure" for this is to move 
> the CHT probes to the head studs, so the temperature will read a lot lower.  
> Makes you feel better, at least.  

KR> 85 Days until the 2016 KR Gathering

[John Bouyea]

http://www.bouyea.net/KRGathering/index.html
I updated the registration/ roster this evening, catching up for a serious
delay in your messages. My apologies to David, Robert, Roger, Joe & Collin.
Welcome aboard guys!

I also updated the Fly-In Schedule page. As soon as Larry approves my edits
I'll get that posted too. Thank you.

John Bouyea

N5391M/ KR2

OR81/ Hillsboro, OR

2015 KR at MMV Gathering CoHost

KR> VW Engines

[Mike Arnold]

Re. Great planes. With all due respect Mark, and I mean that sincerely,
their has been the same man at the heart of Great Planes from the beginning
and one of the owners and still directing the engine department and most
other aspects of GP. By the way look at all the changes Corvair has gone
through and the break-aways if you know what I mean. Not a lot of companies
keep the same owners and CEO. Just my .02
On Jun 21, 2016 7:14 PM, "Mark Langford via KRnet" 
wrote:

>  Some random thoughts that I feel must be said:
>
> Turbocharging a VW would be a recipe for disaster IMHO, and insurance that
> you wouldn't do much flying.  Don't forget...it's all about flying, not how
> fast you can say your plane would go if it were running.
>
> GPASC has proprietary parts...flywheel, adapter, hub, crank, bearing, and
> case come to mind quickly.  Having built one of these several times, I'm
> not a fan of the keyway setup.  The slots are in hub and crank are shallow,
> and the key is provided as a square key that you need to grind (or mill)
> down to something way thinner to fit between hub and crank. Getting a good
> fit with maximum material is trial and error. The key is only there to
> ensure the timing mark stays constant if the hub is removed.  The taper is
> where the power is transferred.
>
> Crank and hub are also matched sets due to tolerances on the angle.  The
> hub still needs to be lapped onto the crank, which is a two-hour chore by
> hand.
>
> The hub/bearing clearance is not consistent. The crank and bearing are
> sold as a set, and getting a new bearing for an existing crank is iffy.
> I've torqued the case to 8 ft-lbs and the crank still spun, then when I
> torqued it to 14 the crank seized.  No amount of refitting cured that one.
>  I'm not a great fan of the prop bolt...1/2" RH threads. Revmaster's is
> .75" LH threads, which can be torqued higher for a better connection.
> Otherwise, a simple engine backfire can unscrew the prop, despite proper
> torque and Loctite 620 on the bolt  threads.
>
> If the crankshaft's oil seal leaks, the hub isn't going to come off
> without a 20 ton press, so tear the engine down to replace the seals, and
> hope the next seals work better.  My luck with those seals has not been
> good either.  That's the only place my engine has lost oil.
>
> If you're working with the hub before it's torqued and remove it while the
> keyway is facing down, the tiny key falls down into the cavity below the
> cam gear, and you get to tear the engine down again to retrieve it. Yes,
> I'm stupid, but it could happen to you as well.
>
> Buy the GPASC manual and read it.  There's a lot of trial and error work
> to be done in there, not to mention the basics of case and other
> clearancing when boring and stroking a VW engine.  I guess the 2700cc
> Corvair really spoiled me...no machine work or trial and error.
>
> Generally, VW heads have a tiny area of air passages between the top and
> bottom of the head, even after serious deflashing.  This has gotten even
> worse over the years, rather than better, now that factory VW heads have
> dried up. Corvairs have way more cooling passage area, hence they cool far
> better.  N56ML would fly around on the hottest of days at cruise speed and
> it might be 320F.  This VW is closer to 380F.  The "cure" for this is to
> move the CHT probes to the head studs, so the temperature will read a lot
> lower.  Makes you feel better, at least.  Fiberglass plenums are my next
> experiment, and probably a set of heads with larger cooling air passages,
> if I can find them.
>
> Keep in mind that I used to be a VW mechanic, and am no stranger to trial
> and error with details like chamber volume, but this is ridiculous, and
> apparently never ending.
>
> GPASC is on its third owner in less than a year, so consistency is not
> something I'd count on.
>
> I could write more, and someday I'll have time for further details, but I
> feel obligated to get this said.  For the moment I'm off to adjust the
> valves again.
>
> Stirewalt's right, I "make" time by not getting enough sleep, and it's not
> getting any better...
>
>
> Mark Langford
> ML at N56ML.com
> http://www.n56ml.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change
> options
>

KR> micro balloons in high build primer?

[Larry Flesner]

I used Smooth Prime ( 
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/smoothprime.php?clickkey=30869 
)  15 years ago when finishing my KR.  It seems a bit expensive now 
but it wasn't cheap back then either.  I don't recall how much it 
took but certainly not the three gallon it suggest in the ad, maybe a 
gallon and a quart.  It is water based and I put it on a bit at a 
time with a 4 inch foam roll as I finished different areas of the 
plane.  I covered it with cheap auto paint ($40 a gallon in early 
2000) and it still looks like the day it was painted.  Paint was 
never buffed out and I still have two spots on the left wing that 
have been in primer since 2004 where I cut in to the wing to fix a 
fuel leak.  Nobody every notices the primer spots and I've just never 
bothered to paint them.

The trick to eliminating fill is to get the foam right, get a good 
glass lay up, then cover with "deck cloth" for minimum fill.  If you 
look "real close" you can see one of the primer spots in the photo.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32133949/024_24.JPG

Larry Flesner

KR> micro balloons in high build primer?

[Paul Visk]

I have posted this link many times. ?My opinion this is the best way to prep 
the KR for painting without braking the bank.

http://curedcomposites.com/finish.html


Paul Visk?Belleville IL ?618 406 4705
Sent on the new Sprint Network from my Samsung Galaxy S?4

 Original message 
From: svd via KRnet  
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: 06/21/2016  6:18 PM  (GMT-06:00) 
To: krnet at list.krnet.org 
Cc: svd  
Subject: KR> micro balloons in high build primer? 

anyone mix micro into high build (roll on) primer to get lighter build?

It takes a village idiot- Owen

___
Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change 
options

KR> VW Engines

[Mark Langford]

  Some random thoughts that I feel must be said:

Turbocharging a VW would be a recipe for disaster IMHO, and insurance 
that you wouldn't do much flying.  Don't forget...it's all about flying, 
not how fast you can say your plane would go if it were running.

GPASC has proprietary parts...flywheel, adapter, hub, crank, bearing, 
and case come to mind quickly.  Having built one of these several times, 
I'm not a fan of the keyway setup.  The slots are in hub and crank are 
shallow, and the key is provided as a square key that you need to grind 
(or mill) down to something way thinner to fit between hub and crank. 
Getting a good fit with maximum material is trial and error. The key is 
only there to ensure the timing mark stays constant if the hub is 
removed.  The taper is where the power is transferred.

Crank and hub are also matched sets due to tolerances on the angle.  The 
hub still needs to be lapped onto the crank, which is a two-hour chore 
by hand.

The hub/bearing clearance is not consistent. The crank and bearing are 
sold as a set, and getting a new bearing for an existing crank is iffy. 
  I've torqued the case to 8 ft-lbs and the crank still spun, then when 
I torqued it to 14 the crank seized.  No amount of refitting cured that 
one.   I'm not a great fan of the prop bolt...1/2" RH threads. 
Revmaster's is .75" LH threads, which can be torqued higher for a better 
connection. Otherwise, a simple engine backfire can unscrew the prop, 
despite proper torque and Loctite 620 on the bolt  threads.

If the crankshaft's oil seal leaks, the hub isn't going to come off 
without a 20 ton press, so tear the engine down to replace the seals, 
and hope the next seals work better.  My luck with those seals has not 
been good either.  That's the only place my engine has lost oil.

If you're working with the hub before it's torqued and remove it while 
the keyway is facing down, the tiny key falls down into the cavity below 
the cam gear, and you get to tear the engine down again to retrieve it. 
Yes, I'm stupid, but it could happen to you as well.

Buy the GPASC manual and read it.  There's a lot of trial and error work 
to be done in there, not to mention the basics of case and other 
clearancing when boring and stroking a VW engine.  I guess the 2700cc 
Corvair really spoiled me...no machine work or trial and error.

Generally, VW heads have a tiny area of air passages between the top and 
bottom of the head, even after serious deflashing.  This has gotten even 
worse over the years, rather than better, now that factory VW heads have 
dried up. Corvairs have way more cooling passage area, hence they cool 
far better.  N56ML would fly around on the hottest of days at cruise 
speed and it might be 320F.  This VW is closer to 380F.  The "cure" for 
this is to move the CHT probes to the head studs, so the temperature 
will read a lot lower.  Makes you feel better, at least.  Fiberglass 
plenums are my next experiment, and probably a set of heads with larger 
cooling air passages, if I can find them.

Keep in mind that I used to be a VW mechanic, and am no stranger to 
trial and error with details like chamber volume, but this is 
ridiculous, and apparently never ending.

GPASC is on its third owner in less than a year, so consistency is not 
something I'd count on.

I could write more, and someday I'll have time for further details, but 
I feel obligated to get this said.  For the moment I'm off to adjust the 
valves again.

Stirewalt's right, I "make" time by not getting enough sleep, and it's 
not getting any better...


Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
http://www.n56ml.com

KR> Valves

[Kayak Chris]

interesting.  what parts are proprietary in a revmaster that are not in a GP?




On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 4:56 PM, Mike Stirewalt via KRnet
 wrote:
> A year or two ago, someone with a new Revmaster - I think it was the
> R-2300 - sent us a picture of head/valve damage he had suffered with his
> new engine.  Someone else was referenced at that time who had the same
> problems with that engine.
>
> How could that happen?  Nobody knows the VW better than Revmaster Joe yet
> here were people having serious issues with their new (and really nice)
> R-2300 engines.
>
> There's plenty of people flying that engine who don't have those
> problems, so how does this sort of thing happen?
>
> I can postulate just how -
>
> Somebody there at the shop in Hesperia took parts off the shelf to put
> the engine together like they'd done dozens or maybe hundreds of times
> before.  I doubt Joe Horvath does assembly these days, but I'm just
> guessing.  I doubt whoever put the troublesome engines together did
> anything wrong - but I'd also bet they didn't put the engine together as
> carefully as a person would who was going to fly behind it.  I'd bet they
> just took the valves out of their boxs and put them in.  I'd bet they
> didn't use any dykem to check the seats with each valve . . . and how
> carefully did they torque the head studs?  There's all sorts of little
> but critical things that need to be done with great care in assembling an
> aircraft engine and somehow I just don't have the confidence to trust
> that whoever assembles engines at the shop is taking the same care that I
> would in putting the engine together myself.
>
> That R-2300 looks to me like a wonderful engine - but it needs to be put
> together perfectly.  These engines get sold already assembled so if I
> bought one the first thing I'd do with it is get all the manuals and take
> the thing completely apart then put it back together, incorporating any
> improvements it might need.   As Jeff Scott has said, that needs to be
> done with any new and unknown engine.  Notice this engine is rated for
> continuous power of 80 HP at 3000 RPM.  Max RPM is 3200.  I really
> appreciate that this engine has been designed to operate at the perfect
> RPM for a VW.
>
> I haven't priced what an equivalently-equipped Great Plains engine costs
> these days but I imagine it'll work out about the same as what Joe wants
> for these R-2300 Revmasters.  GP appeals to me more because it is bought
> as a kit, so you KNOW how it's been put together.  Plus, parts are not
> proprietary.  Looks to me though that a lot more engineering has gone
> into the design of the R-2300 - rather than just increasing displacement.
>  I'm reading just now that GP's 2300 (actually 2276cc) is "optimized" to
> operate between 3200 and 3600 RPM.  Since I know 3200 is the very top of
> where I want to run my engine, both for prop tip mach speed issues and
> internal friction heat issues, I think I'd rather have an engine that's
> been engineered to operate at an RPM that will keep it cool and where it
> is most efficient.  I'd buy that R-2300, take it all apart and put an
> Ellison on it if I were choosing between the two.  It's gorgeous.
>
> Mike
> KSEE
>
>
> 
> Blazeray
> Deemed: One Household Item Everyone Should Have In Any Emergency
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5769aa518cbb92a513765st02vuc
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change 
> options

KR> VW Cylinder Heads

[Kayak Chris]

ditto on the air file and I was going to ask about clearancing those
air passages like that by removing the extra casting material...

KR> micro balloons in high build primer?

[svd]

anyone mix micro into high build (roll on) primer to get lighter build?

It takes a village idiot- Owen

KR> Valves

[laser147 at juno.com]

A year or two ago, someone with a new Revmaster - I think it was the
R-2300 - sent us a picture of head/valve damage he had suffered with his
new engine.  Someone else was referenced at that time who had the same
problems with that engine.  

How could that happen?  Nobody knows the VW better than Revmaster Joe yet
here were people having serious issues with their new (and really nice)
R-2300 engines.  

There's plenty of people flying that engine who don't have those
problems, so how does this sort of thing happen?  

I can postulate just how - 

Somebody there at the shop in Hesperia took parts off the shelf to put
the engine together like they'd done dozens or maybe hundreds of times
before.  I doubt Joe Horvath does assembly these days, but I'm just
guessing.  I doubt whoever put the troublesome engines together did
anything wrong - but I'd also bet they didn't put the engine together as
carefully as a person would who was going to fly behind it.  I'd bet they
just took the valves out of their boxs and put them in.  I'd bet they
didn't use any dykem to check the seats with each valve . . . and how
carefully did they torque the head studs?  There's all sorts of little
but critical things that need to be done with great care in assembling an
aircraft engine and somehow I just don't have the confidence to trust
that whoever assembles engines at the shop is taking the same care that I
would in putting the engine together myself.  

That R-2300 looks to me like a wonderful engine - but it needs to be put
together perfectly.  These engines get sold already assembled so if I
bought one the first thing I'd do with it is get all the manuals and take
the thing completely apart then put it back together, incorporating any
improvements it might need.   As Jeff Scott has said, that needs to be
done with any new and unknown engine.  Notice this engine is rated for
continuous power of 80 HP at 3000 RPM.  Max RPM is 3200.  I really
appreciate that this engine has been designed to operate at the perfect
RPM for a VW.  

I haven't priced what an equivalently-equipped Great Plains engine costs
these days but I imagine it'll work out about the same as what Joe wants
for these R-2300 Revmasters.  GP appeals to me more because it is bought
as a kit, so you KNOW how it's been put together.  Plus, parts are not
proprietary.  Looks to me though that a lot more engineering has gone
into the design of the R-2300 - rather than just increasing displacement.
 I'm reading just now that GP's 2300 (actually 2276cc) is "optimized" to
operate between 3200 and 3600 RPM.  Since I know 3200 is the very top of
where I want to run my engine, both for prop tip mach speed issues and
internal friction heat issues, I think I'd rather have an engine that's
been engineered to operate at an RPM that will keep it cool and where it
is most efficient.  I'd buy that R-2300, take it all apart and put an
Ellison on it if I were choosing between the two.  It's gorgeous.  

Mike
KSEE



Blazeray
Deemed: One Household Item Everyone Should Have In Any Emergency
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5769aa518cbb92a513765st02vuc

KR> Question concerning Ellison Model 2 Carb on a HAPI VW engine

[Rene Ffrench]

Thanks Mark !!

Again I am wow'ed by the KR network of info.

I really appreciate your info.

Again,

I owe you a cold one!!

Cheers,
Rene'


On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 10:36 PM, Mark Langford via KRnet <
krnet at list.krnet.org> wrote:

> Rene Ffrench wrote:
>
> Yes, you'll need a primer.  I have 3.5 psi feeding the carb.  The carb
> isn't supposed to flow unless it is receiving air, so primer is required to
> get it going.   I'm using a primer, and you'll  a primer in all but the
> warmest of conditions.  I ran an 1/8" copper tube from an electric primer
> solenoid to a T that splits to each side, and  at each head is another T,
> with a primer nozzle going to a fitting that I welded into each intake
> (total of four). Actually, I welded a piece of steel tubing into the
> manifolds and threaded it.
>
> Four nozzles may be overkill, but "real" airplane people are astounded
> that I can turn it over a couple of blades in freezing weather and it
> starts and runs smoothly!  There is a special primer fitting that AS (and
> likely Wicks) sells that has an orifice in it that sprays an atomized
> mist.  It also has a cone connection that must be silver soldered (not as
> hard as it sounds) to the copper tubing.  See
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/primerfittings.php?clickkey=3014828
> for all of this stuff, and I warn you that it is expensive.  You don't need
> everything in the photo, just the discharge nipple, the cone fitting, and
> retaining nut (AN-805).  Don't take my word for it though...investigate a
> little.  I've bought stuff that I didn't need, and it's all expensive.
>
> One benefit of this system is that if your engine suffers vapor lock in
> flight and starves for fuel, you can "pulse" the primer off and on to keep
> the engine running.  Been there, done that, glad it works...
>
> Mark Langford
> ML at N56ML.com
> http://www.n56ml.com
>
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change
> options
>



-- 
Cheers,
Rene'

lrffrench at gmail.com
+1-512-547-7164

KR> KRnet Digest, Vol 4, Issue 162

[svd]

Thanks Mark,

Can you add a link to the specific Chinese heads?   I?m trying to decide what 
to do on that front.   

Cheers,
Owen


> On Jun 21, 2016, at 9:00 AM, krnet-request at list.krnet.org wrote:
> 
> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 04:31:17 -0700
> From: mailto:ml at n56ml.com>>
> To: "KRnet" mailto:krnet at list.krnet.org>>
> Subject: KR> VW cylinder heads
> Message-ID:
>   <20160621043117.d04b1abb1c854b54fd3150a99c6879d4.3a2036a6e6.wbe at 
> email04.godaddy.com 
>  email04.godaddy.com>>
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> To add to the insightful post that Owen Hughes (SVD) wrote yesterday day
> on VWs, I would avoid the Mofoco heads.  The photos show lots of fins,
> and that's great, but what they are lacking is cooling air passages, I
> mean almost nothing.  If the air's not flowing through the fins, they're
> going to run hot.  I'm looking into this same subject lately, now that
> it's gotten hot and I fly in the 90's most of the time, and I'm tired of
> seeing 400F when I'm only 500' off the runway on the first flight of the
> day.  I ran across a photo over the weekend from a Dec 2010 Hot VWs
> article  that showed bottom views of 18 heads they reviewed, and
> Fomoco's weren't so great.  On the other hand, the "Chinese" heads were
> awesome, lots of daylight between the fins,  and by most accounts I've
> found, the quality is very high, and the price quite reasonable. DRD
> Aircooled sells them, and I plan to order some tonight.  Whatever you
> buy, make sure you get stainless valves!
> 
> Another good chart that wraps up a lot of VW head details is at
> http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=573099 
> 
> 
> Mark Langford, Harvest, AL
> ML "at" N56ML.com 
> www.N56ML.com 
> 

KR> VW Cylinder Heads

[laser147 at juno.com]

I continue to be amazed that Mark has time to not only buy, build, crash
and re-build but also track down esoteric forums on VW heads.  I would
guess Mark doesn't get much sleep.  

Thanks to the link I've discovered a new tool - an "air file".  I don't
need one but do enjoy buying stuff I don't need so I'll surely get an air
file at some point.  What a great idea for getting at hard to reach
areas.  Something like that could be used for cleaning the narrow slots
on my car wheels that collect brake dust and are so hard to clean. 
Chucking a narrow brush in this device would be the cat's meow for doing
this job - I've tried everything except taking the wheels off and putting
them in an acid bath, so this tool is a great find.  

Re high cylinder head temps - keep in mind that once you get beyond 3200
RPM you're generating a huge amount of heat just from internal friction. 
Whatever additional thrust you get at running the prop tips at or above
mach comes at great cost in heat, noise and is just generally wasteful
and destructive.  Keep the RPM's down and you keep the internal friction
down.  Keeping internal friction down keeps heat levels down.  My opinion
is high RPM's for extended periods are going to kill the engine a lot
faster than poor baffling - or even poor circulation from casting
leftovers that haven't been cleaned.   Running the engine at 3000 or
under will do wonders for engine longevity and compensate for a multitude
of sins.  

I don't know how important it is, but I've always used Valvoline 15/50
synthetic from NAPA.  It's what Steve (Bennett) was using in the engine
when he had the plane and I've just continued using it.  Synthetic
doesn't break down with heat nearly as much as conventional oils.  

Re Bob Hoover - I once considered anything he said to be golden - until I
read where someone said that he (Hoover) recommended that valves need to
be replaced every 150 hours or whatever it was - that's plain ridiculous
and calls into question everything else he had to say.  One bit of very
valuable advice I did get from reading Hoover is how important it is to
run the engine cool.  That  _is_  golden.  

Just for general information - putting on a nice coarse prop will give
you plenty of thrust for takeoff and climb but most especially cruise,
yet will keep the engine cool since you can't turn any faster than 3200
with a 2180 with a 52 x 56 Sterba - and that's only at altitude with WOT.
 My takeoff RPM is plus or minus 2800 RPM.  It gets off and climbs fine
with me and a 21 gallons of fuel and a baggage compartment stuffed with
tools and water and my travel bag with clothes, computer & whatever. 
Last Saturday I left San Felipe on the Sea of Cortez about 2 in the
afternoon - temps over 100F and gusty strong winds blowing straight
across the runway.  Cylinder and oil temps stayed within limits
throughout the takeoff and long cruise climb up to 8500 back to SDM.  I
didn't go higher because it's a short distance between MMSF and KSDM and
also because my recently filled oxygen bottle had sprung a leak sitting
out on the hot ramp.  The seal between the regulator and tank valve badly
needed replacement I discovered once I got home.  

Just run the VW somewhere around 3000 RPM and it'll chug along forever. 
Bob Hoover was nuts to suggest rebuilding the heads everytime you turn
around.  Good valves are important - and all stainless valves aren't the
same.  Spend the money and get some Manleys.  They're not that expensive
and they're the best.  Use swivel feet on the rockers - that's absolutely
essential to keep your guides healthy.  Even with Manleys, put them in a
lathe or valve grinder and make sure they are true.  Even Continental and
Lycoming valves can't be trusted to be true out of the box.  If the stem
is even slightly out of true they won't consistently seat perfectly (and
they must) and when they don't seat perfectly you get what Mark's friend
Jim Hill had with his engine.   You can't trust new valves to be true, no
matter who makes them.  They need to be trued when you put them in.  And
use new springs of the best quality (not stronger - that'll just wear out
the cam lobes) you can buy.  Re-using valve springs is a felony. 

And read Langford's tutorial on building his Corvair.  Read it a bunch of
times.  

Mike
KSEE



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KR> KRnet Digest, Vol 4, Issue 162

[svd]

Hi Mike,

My son and I are getting ready to fill and finish, and we were planning on 
rolling on ultrahigh build awlgrip primer (which is a 2 part epoxy primer) 
after a wet wipe epoxy seal of the micro-fill.  Supposedly you can roll the 
stuff on if you reduce by ~20%  - but it sounds like you?re experience should 
point us in a different direction.   

What would you suggest we do?

Cheers,
Owen




> On Jun 21, 2016, at 9:00 AM, krnet-request at list.krnet.org wrote:
> 
> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 18:09:33 +
> From: Mike Sylvester mailto:SHAGSTER60 at 
> hotmail.com>>
> To: KRnet mailto:krnet at list.krnet.org>>
> Subject: KR> KR update
> Message-ID:
>BN3PR03MB1400.namprd03.prod.outlook.com 
>  bn3pr03mb1400.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>>
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Ok Guys, I have taken the week off to sand the primer and paint the plane. 
> Let me start by saying that something I thought was a good thing in the past 
> has come back to bite me. In the building process as I finished a part of the 
> plane I would prime it by rolling on 2 part epoxy high fill primer, yes I 
> said, roll it on with little foam rollers. This leaves a slight orange peel 
> texture and this stuff is killer to sand down to smooth. What I thought I 
> could do in two days is going to take all week. I hope we sing the sanding 
> song at the gathering because I am definitely earning the right to sing it, 
> Hell, I might even lead the thing.
> 
> 
> Mike Sylvester
> kr2s builder
> Birmingham,AL.
> 
> Cell no.205-966-3854
> 

KR> VW cylinder heads

[Kayak Chris]

gosh I wish there were a "settled" solution, after all these years it
still seems like "trying things" and owen's thought on "rebuilding
every 300 hours" I took to mean the top end, and in particular it
seems to me that temperature is the killer.

with such a tight thermal margin as Mark mentions 400 degrees CHT on
departure, then one wonders how the turbocharged offerings do with 25%
more power produced through the same heads.

and one wonders also if the revmaster heads with the improved alloy
and hemispherical chambers are the durability solution, or not.

finally, I wonder how Mark with all the experience cant get CHT lower
with more /different ducting?






On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 7:31 AM, Mark Langford via KRnet
 wrote:
> To add to the insightful post that Owen Hughes (SVD) wrote yesterday day
> on VWs, I would avoid the Mofoco heads.  The photos show lots of fins,
> and that's great, but what they are lacking is cooling air passages, I
> mean almost nothing.  If the air's not flowing through the fins, they're
> going to run hot.  I'm looking into this same subject lately, now that
> it's gotten hot and I fly in the 90's most of the time, and I'm tired of
> seeing 400F when I'm only 500' off the runway on the first flight of the
> day.  I ran across a photo over the weekend from a Dec 2010 Hot VWs
> article  that showed bottom views of 18 heads they reviewed, and
> Fomoco's weren't so great.  On the other hand, the "Chinese" heads were
> awesome, lots of daylight between the fins,  and by most accounts I've
> found, the quality is very high, and the price quite reasonable. DRD
> Aircooled sells them, and I plan to order some tonight.  Whatever you
> buy, make sure you get stainless valves!
>
> Another good chart that wraps up a lot of VW head details is at
> http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=573099
>
> Mark Langford, Harvest, AL
> ML "at" N56ML.com
> www.N56ML.com
>
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change 
> options

KR> Question concerning Ellison Model 2 Carb on a HAPI VW engine

[Tommy Waymack]

Yes to all the above.I used a single nozzle in front of the carb located
under the engine[updraft].It worked ok,but I am in the process of
installing 2 points,one in each side on top of the engine.No data on this
yet.Fuel pressure seems adequate with fuel pump off in cruise but use boost
pump for take off and landing.

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 9:36 PM, Mark Langford via KRnet <
krnet at list.krnet.org> wrote:

> Rene Ffrench wrote:
>
> Yes, you'll need a primer.  I have 3.5 psi feeding the carb.  The carb
> isn't supposed to flow unless it is receiving air, so primer is required to
> get it going.   I'm using a primer, and you'll  a primer in all but the
> warmest of conditions.  I ran an 1/8" copper tube from an electric primer
> solenoid to a T that splits to each side, and  at each head is another T,
> with a primer nozzle going to a fitting that I welded into each intake
> (total of four). Actually, I welded a piece of steel tubing into the
> manifolds and threaded it.
>
> Four nozzles may be overkill, but "real" airplane people are astounded
> that I can turn it over a couple of blades in freezing weather and it
> starts and runs smoothly!  There is a special primer fitting that AS (and
> likely Wicks) sells that has an orifice in it that sprays an atomized
> mist.  It also has a cone connection that must be silver soldered (not as
> hard as it sounds) to the copper tubing.  See
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/primerfittings.php?clickkey=3014828
> for all of this stuff, and I warn you that it is expensive.  You don't need
> everything in the photo, just the discharge nipple, the cone fitting, and
> retaining nut (AN-805).  Don't take my word for it though...investigate a
> little.  I've bought stuff that I didn't need, and it's all expensive.
>
> One benefit of this system is that if your engine suffers vapor lock in
> flight and starves for fuel, you can "pulse" the primer off and on to keep
> the engine running.  Been there, done that, glad it works...
>
> Mark Langford
> ML at N56ML.com
> http://www.n56ml.com
>
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change
> options
>

KR> "blast from the past"

[Tommy Waymack]

Meant to say the 1992 gathering may have been Covington,Tn.

On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Tommy Waymack <5blindate at gmail.com> wrote:

> My memory has faded but 1993 was possibly Covington,Tn.1993 was the
> thirteenth and Don Cornwell went down on the south end approach at
> dark.There was normally 2 events at most venues.
>
> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 8:39 PM, Virgil N. Salisbury via KRnet <
> krnet at list.krnet.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Check with Video BOB, Virg
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6/20/2016 7:04 PM, Larry Flesner via KRnet wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This is what I have so far.  Can anyone add, correct, or have any
>>> earlier dates?  If anyone has the "old newsletter" disk and wants to
>>> research, please do.  I've made every Gathering, including the two in
>>> 98, since 1990 except the Corona Gathering, but my memory is not as good
>>> as it was when I started my KR 25 years ago. :-(
>>>
>>> Larry Flesner
>>>
>>> KR Gatherings  - year and location
>>>
>>> 1989 - Covington, Tenn.
>>> 1990 - Rough River, Kentucky
>>> 1991 ? Kentucky Dam State Park
>>> 1992 ?
>>> 1993 - Covington, Tennessee
>>> 1994 ? Columbia, Tennessee
>>> 1995 ? Columbia, Tennessee
>>> 1996 ? Pine Bluff, Arkansas
>>> 1997 ? Perry, Oklahoma
>>> 1998 - Perry, Oklahoma   Columbia, TN "East Coast Gathering"
>>> 1999 ? Lake Barkley, Kentucky
>>> 2000 ? Lake Barkley, Kentucky
>>> 2001 - Pine Bluff, Arkansas
>>> 2002 - Red Oak, Iowa
>>> 2003 - Red Oak, Iowa
>>> 2004 - Mt.Vernon, Illinois
>>> 2005 - Mt.Vernon, Illinois
>>> 2006 - Mt.Vernon, Illinois
>>> 2007 - Mt.Vernon, Illinois
>>> 2008 - Mt.Vernon, Illinois
>>> 2009 - Mt.Vernon, Illinois
>>> 2010 - Richmond, Kentucky
>>> 2011 - Mt.Vernon, Illinois
>>> 2012 - Mt.Vernon, Illinois
>>> 2013 - Mt.Vernon, Illinois
>>> 2014 - Corona, California
>>> 2015 - McMinnville, Oregon
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
>>> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
>>> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>>> see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to
>>> change options
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
>> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
>> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>> see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to
>> change options
>>
>
>

KR> "blast from the past"

[Tommy Waymack]

My memory has faded but 1993 was possibly Covington,Tn.1993 was the
thirteenth and Don Cornwell went down on the south end approach at
dark.There was normally 2 events at most venues.

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 8:39 PM, Virgil N. Salisbury via KRnet <
krnet at list.krnet.org> wrote:

>
> Check with Video BOB, Virg
>
>
>
> On 6/20/2016 7:04 PM, Larry Flesner via KRnet wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> This is what I have so far.  Can anyone add, correct, or have any
>> earlier dates?  If anyone has the "old newsletter" disk and wants to
>> research, please do.  I've made every Gathering, including the two in
>> 98, since 1990 except the Corona Gathering, but my memory is not as good
>> as it was when I started my KR 25 years ago. :-(
>>
>> Larry Flesner
>>
>> KR Gatherings  - year and location
>>
>> 1989 - Covington, Tenn.
>> 1990 - Rough River, Kentucky
>> 1991 ? Kentucky Dam State Park
>> 1992 ?
>> 1993 - Covington, Tennessee
>> 1994 ? Columbia, Tennessee
>> 1995 ? Columbia, Tennessee
>> 1996 ? Pine Bluff, Arkansas
>> 1997 ? Perry, Oklahoma
>> 1998 - Perry, Oklahoma   Columbia, TN "East Coast Gathering"
>> 1999 ? Lake Barkley, Kentucky
>> 2000 ? Lake Barkley, Kentucky
>> 2001 - Pine Bluff, Arkansas
>> 2002 - Red Oak, Iowa
>> 2003 - Red Oak, Iowa
>> 2004 - Mt.Vernon, Illinois
>> 2005 - Mt.Vernon, Illinois
>> 2006 - Mt.Vernon, Illinois
>> 2007 - Mt.Vernon, Illinois
>> 2008 - Mt.Vernon, Illinois
>> 2009 - Mt.Vernon, Illinois
>> 2010 - Richmond, Kentucky
>> 2011 - Mt.Vernon, Illinois
>> 2012 - Mt.Vernon, Illinois
>> 2013 - Mt.Vernon, Illinois
>> 2014 - Corona, California
>> 2015 - McMinnville, Oregon
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
>> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
>> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>> see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to
>> change options
>>
>>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change
> options
>

KR> VW cylinder heads

[ml at n56ml.com]

There's a photo comparison of the "Chinese" heads at 
http://sbeaver.com/cgi-bin/fournier/cutecast.pl?session=2EW3tGIDH3wRUhpa0YWijyN56D=13=707,
as well as a link to the HOT VWs pages with more comparisons.

Mark Langford, Harvest, AL
ML "at" N56ML.com
www.N56ML.com

KR> VW cylinder heads

[ml at n56ml.com]

To add to the insightful post that Owen Hughes (SVD) wrote yesterday day
on VWs, I would avoid the Mofoco heads.  The photos show lots of fins,
and that's great, but what they are lacking is cooling air passages, I
mean almost nothing.  If the air's not flowing through the fins, they're
going to run hot.  I'm looking into this same subject lately, now that
it's gotten hot and I fly in the 90's most of the time, and I'm tired of
seeing 400F when I'm only 500' off the runway on the first flight of the
day.  I ran across a photo over the weekend from a Dec 2010 Hot VWs
article  that showed bottom views of 18 heads they reviewed, and
Fomoco's weren't so great.  On the other hand, the "Chinese" heads were
awesome, lots of daylight between the fins,  and by most accounts I've
found, the quality is very high, and the price quite reasonable. DRD
Aircooled sells them, and I plan to order some tonight.  Whatever you
buy, make sure you get stainless valves!

Another good chart that wraps up a lot of VW head details is at
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=573099

Mark Langford, Harvest, AL
ML "at" N56ML.com
www.N56ML.com

KR> Oshkosh Reservation for Sale

[Ronald Wright]

A friend of mine has a room reservation for sale the week of Oshkosh/Air 
Venture.

Days Inn
Fond Du Lac WI
26/27/28/29 July.  This is Tues/Wed/Thur/Fri nights.

They prepaid the room which is non-refundable.  Available for their cost:  
$781.80.

If anyone is interested you may contact Mike Young at 314-550-6984 during the 
daytime hours MO time.

Email:  youngmm1 at sw.bell.net

Tell him Ron Wright suggested you contact him about the room.  1 room, 2 
full/queen beds, non-smoking.

Thanks everyone.

KR> KR update

[Jeff Scott]

Man, I'm thinking 220 wet, a good rubber sanding block, and a bucket of water 
are going to be your best friends for a while. :o)? Yep.? You're gonna hate 
sanding after working that stuff out.  We'll let you sing a solo after this.

-Jeff Scott
Los Alamos, NM
?

Sent:?Monday, June 20, 2016 at 12:09 PM
From:?"Mike Sylvester via KRnet" 
To:?KRnet 
Cc:?"Mike Sylvester" 
Subject:?KR> KR update
Ok Guys, I have taken the week off to sand the primer and paint the plane. Let 
me start by saying that something I thought was a good thing in the past has 
come back to bite me. In the building process as I finished a part of the plane 
I would prime it by rolling on 2 part epoxy high fill primer, yes I said, roll 
it on with little foam rollers. This leaves a slight orange peel texture and 
this stuff is killer to sand down to smooth. What I thought I could do in two 
days is going to take all week. I hope we sing the sanding song at the 
gathering because I am definitely earning the right to sing it, Hell, I might 
even lead the thing.


Mike Sylvester
kr2s builder
Birmingham,AL.