KR> Harley motors

[StRaNgEdAyS]

Steve J asked:
"What is a shovel?"

The pre 1986 Harley engines were described as to the appearance of the top
of their engines.
The top end of the knucklehead had 2 knuckle like ends where the valve gear
went, the panhead had a pan type cover and the top of the shovelhead looked
like a shovel blade sitting on top of the engine.
It's been a while since I had one apart, most of the bikes (almost all in
fact) I've worked on were jappas, but I'm pretty certain the lubrication is
pumped through the crank from an externally mounted tank, the pump is driven
directly from the crankshaft and scavenged in a similar manner.
I'll see what info I can find on it for you.

Cheers
 Peter Bancks
stranged...@dodo.com.au
http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com
http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net

KR> Harley motors

[larry flesner]

>The EVO is short for the H.D. Evolution engine (from 1986 -1998/9?) It's a
>darned side less shaky than the Shovel, and about 200% more reliable to boot
>
>I'm pretty sure all H.D. engines are dry sump engines, forced lubrication
>supplied by pump from an external tank. (There sure ain't no room in that
>tiny crankcase for a sump)
> Peter Bancks


I believe the engine used by "Hog Air" is the balanced engine that they quit
building a few years back.  They still had a demand for the engine so
I believe they put it back in production as an after market item.  It's not
sold in their bikes any more.  And yes, it has a dry sump.

He is using a reduction drive and the engine fit in the Zenair 601 rather
nicely.  His first engine was approx 80 hp and the latest one installed
is approx 100 to 110 hp.  He will have the 80 hp version at Oshkosh
mounted to a powered parachute trike for demos.

Needless to say he takes considerable bad-mouthing about a Harley
engine in an airplane.  At an airport cookout a few weeks ago the tower
contoller came down for a hotdog and I asked him (with everyone present
, of course) if he sent the grounds maintenance personel out to check
for an oil slick on the runway after the Harley landed.  It's a good thing
Bret has a sense of humor or I might have had my body cavities stuffed
full of hotdogs!!

Larry Flesner -Offical "Hog Air" test pilot and I have a tee shirt to prove
it.

KR> Harley motors

[larry flesner]

>What is a shovel?

>Steve J
+++

That's the tool you use to bury a Harley but let's not go there !!  :-)

Larry Flesner

KR> Harley motors

[Allen G. Wiesner]

Harleys are like radials; they don't leak, they're marking their territory!

>Needless to say he takes considerable bad-mouthing about a Harley
>engine in an airplane.  At an airport cookout a few weeks ago the tower
>controller came down for a hotdog and I asked him (with everyone present,
>of course) if he sent the grounds maintenance personnel out to check
>for an oil slick on the runway after the Harley landed.  It's a good thing
>Bret has a sense of humor or I might have had my body cavities stuffed
>full of hotdogs!!


Allen G. Wiesner  KR-2SS/TD S/N1118
65 Franklin Street
Ansonia, CT 06401
(203) 732-0508

flash...@usadatanet.net

KR> Harley motors

[Doug Rupert]

Oil is actually pumped from the sump to the filter then back to the tank and
then to the engine by an oil pump located on the right (as you sit on the
bike) side of the engine just behind the cam cover.
Doug

I've worked on were jappas, but I'm pretty certain the lubrication is
pumped through the crank from an externally mounted tank, the pump is driven
directly from the crankshaft and scavenged in a similar manner.

KR> Harley motors

[Doug Rupert]

I have but can't seem to find out what they weigh or the torque and
horsepower figures. The Honda Valkrye would also be a fine candidate as I
believe they use the same engine. Any motorcycle salvage yard would be an
excellent place to look.
Doug Rupert

Anyone ever consider the goldwing 1500 or 1800 engine, it would need a
reduction unit and of course it's water cooled, but it may be an
alternative to the subbie.

KR> Harley motors

[Doug Rupert]

Excellent post Larry.  The vibration is still there and will remain as long
as Harley stays with their patented 45 degree V-twin. That angle is the only
reason the Japanese bikes will never be able to copy the Harley sound. Now
S Company in Viola Wisconsin builds some monster Harley motors in the
120-130 horsepower range and if you used the Harley or aftermarket
transmission you have a built in reduction drive as well as a way to lower
RPM at cruise. Harley's haven't leaked oil since the Shovelhead went out of
production but have been known to blow a cylinder base gasket which will
cause the engine to leak but replacing the stock gasket with a performance
aluminum one properly coated with sealer will solve that problem real quick.
The newer 88 inch double overhead cam models might offer more in the way of
torque but even that is an easy fix with any Harley engine buy changing the
camshaft. Both Andrews and Crane offer a full selection of shafts to suit
any particular situation. Seems that low end torque at lower rpm's would be
ideal for aircraft applications.
Doug Rupert

KR> Harley motors

[pcul...@sirinet.net]

Just a bit of info for all us netters.
Looked up the weight on Hog Air, 82Hp and 92ft lbs of torque @ 5000 rpm. It
comes with a 2 to 1 reduction unit, prop hub, engine mounts, ehause. oil
tank and fi unit. weighs in at 214 lbs. Yes its a hog but it sure is lighter
than the vair.
For giggles the 94CI puts out 110 hp and 114 torque @ 4500 rpm. Everything
else is the same. They can jest about oil slicks all they want but the
numbers don't sound bad either.

 I myself am building a vair for my 2s and I spend lots of time looking at
the board I don't do much posting just observing and taking notes as I build
on and on as it seems. Thanks for the time.
- Original Message - 
From: "Doug Rupert" <drup...@sympatico.ca>
To: "'KRnet'" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 3:35 PM
Subject: RE: KR> Harley motors


> Excellent post Larry.  The vibration is still there and will remain as
long
> as Harley stays with their patented 45 degree V-twin. That angle is the
only
> reason the Japanese bikes will never be able to copy the Harley sound. Now
> S Company in Viola Wisconsin builds some monster Harley motors in the
> 120-130 horsepower range and if you used the Harley or aftermarket
> transmission you have a built in reduction drive as well as a way to lower
> RPM at cruise. Harley's haven't leaked oil since the Shovelhead went out
of
> production but have been known to blow a cylinder base gasket which will
> cause the engine to leak but replacing the stock gasket with a performance
> aluminum one properly coated with sealer will solve that problem real
quick.
> The newer 88 inch double overhead cam models might offer more in the way
of
> torque but even that is an easy fix with any Harley engine buy changing
the
> camshaft. Both Andrews and Crane offer a full selection of shafts to suit
> any particular situation. Seems that low end torque at lower rpm's would
be
> ideal for aircraft applications.
> Doug Rupert
>
>
>
>
> ___
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>

KR> Harley motors - seriously now

[Steve and Lori McGee]

  As a biker for over 30 years legally and more otherwise, there is no way I
would put a Harley engine in an airplane.  You want a dependable engine in
there and NONE of the Harleys are that.
  Even the new one was brought out with a KNOWN oil lube problem to the
valve train, and they introduced it anyway.  I showed this to my brother
after he bought his 2000 and said he better correct it with an aftermarket
fix, he did not, and it went bad just like was explained in a biker
magazine.

 My newest bike is the Yamaha Midnite Venture, fully loaded and standard 5
year warranty with 24 hour roadside.

Harley has shit for a warranty cause they got shit for a bike.

Don't even bother to start talking American Iron till you research it.
Quite an ad campaign they have built up in lies.



Steve McGee
KR2S

KR> Harley motors

[Wesley Scott]

from : http://www.motobykz.co.uk/2002wing/2002wing.htm

 Honda claims 118 bhp and 125 lb./ft. of torque 

Honda Goldwing GL1800 Specifications

Engine Type: Type: 1832cc liquid-cooled horizontally opposed six-cylinder

Bore x Stroke: 74mm x 71mm

Compression Ratio: 9.8:1

Carburettor(s): PGM-FI with automatic choke

Ignition: Computer-controlled digital with three-dimensional mapping

Transmission: 5 speed including overdrive, plus electric reverse


- Original Message - 
From: "Doug Rupert" <drup...@sympatico.ca>
To: "'KRnet'" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 3:35 PM
Subject: RE: KR> Harley motors


> I have but can't seem to find out what they weigh or the torque and
> horsepower figures. The Honda Valkrye would also be a fine candidate as I
> believe they use the same engine. Any motorcycle salvage yard would be an
> excellent place to look.
> Doug Rupert
> 
> Anyone ever consider the goldwing 1500 or 1800 engine, it would need a
> reduction unit and of course it's water cooled, but it may be an
> alternative to the subbie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 
> 
> 

KR> Harley motors

[StRaNgEdAyS]

Doug said:
"Seems that low end torque at lower rpm's would be
ideal for aircraft applications."

That's what gave me the idea it would be a great engine. to redrive or not
to redrive, that is the question, seems that same discussion is being
bandied about with the Corvairs too. I notice that some do and some don't. I
guess it's a matter for the prop to decide, and whether your particular
engine is build to develop it's power at higher revolutions or not. Of
course you'd have to redrive if you wanted to keep it upright (then engine,
not the bike), unless you wanted a really low slung prop or 2 cylinders
poking out above your cowl, now wouldn't that look strange? It would go a
long way to help cooling though... If someone could help me with the details
about if the darned things can easily deal with being inverted, I might be
getting somewhere! 
Cheers.
 Peter Bancks
stranged...@dodo.com.au
http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com
http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net

KR> Harley motors/PSRU's

[larry flesner]

 to redrive or not
>to redrive, that is the question, seems that same discussion is being
>bandied about with the Corvairs too. I notice that some do and some don't. I
>guess it's a matter for the prop to decide, 
> Peter Bancks


Using a PSRU , a belt drive is the only one I've seen on a Harley, would
also help to isolate the prop from the crank for harmonics and all those
other things that engineers talk about and figure out that keep us 
dummies from doing ourselves in.

It also helps get the engine rpm up in the power band of approx 4500 rpm
and the prop turning at a reasonable speed.  If I were inclined to use
a Harley that's the only way I'd go.  When it proves itself and is worthy
of consideration for a KR I'll let you know.

Larry Flesner

KR> Harley motors

[Doug Rupert]

Thanks Wes. 
Doug

Honda claims 118 bhp and 125 lb./ft. of torque 

Honda Goldwing GL1800 Specifications

KR> Harley motors

[Brian Kraut]

One really interresting hing his father told me when he picked up the plane
is that Harley not only has given them a license on the name and not refused
to sell to them because they are going in airplanes, but they actually still
warranty the engine.

Brian Kraut
Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
www.engalt.com

-Original Message-
From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net]On
Behalf Of larry flesner
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 3:41 PM
To: KRnet
Subject: KR> Harley motors


>The EVO is short for the H.D. Evolution engine (from 1986 -1998/9?) It's a
>darned side less shaky than the Shovel, and about 200% more reliable to
boot
>
>I'm pretty sure all H.D. engines are dry sump engines, forced lubrication
>supplied by pump from an external tank. (There sure ain't no room in that
>tiny crankcase for a sump)
> Peter Bancks


I believe the engine used by "Hog Air" is the balanced engine that they quit
building a few years back.  They still had a demand for the engine so
I believe they put it back in production as an after market item.  It's not
sold in their bikes any more.  And yes, it has a dry sump.

He is using a reduction drive and the engine fit in the Zenair 601 rather
nicely.  His first engine was approx 80 hp and the latest one installed
is approx 100 to 110 hp.  He will have the 80 hp version at Oshkosh
mounted to a powered parachute trike for demos.

Needless to say he takes considerable bad-mouthing about a Harley
engine in an airplane.  At an airport cookout a few weeks ago the tower
contoller came down for a hotdog and I asked him (with everyone present
, of course) if he sent the grounds maintenance personel out to check
for an oil slick on the runway after the Harley landed.  It's a good thing
Bret has a sense of humor or I might have had my body cavities stuffed
full of hotdogs!!

Larry Flesner -Offical "Hog Air" test pilot and I have a tee shirt to prove
it.



___
to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> Harley motors

[Ronald Metcalf]

larry flesner

Much was said today about the Hog motor and I understand from you comments 
that you have some insight into this venture and the engine now being used 
in the Zenith airplane is Ok.  Also that you are in fact flying the test 
bed.

I can understand that you cannot say a whole lot, but what are the vibration 
levels like.

I ask because I like the engine, price, weight, sound, pedigree and would 
very much like to use it - Hog Air does offer them for sale with the drive 
et al.

Thank you in anticipation
Ron

_
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® 
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KR> Harley motors

[Brian Kraut]

Brett from Hog Air will be at the gathering this year.  I don't know a whole
lot about the engine or how suitable it is for the KR, but I do know that
Bret is a good guy and knows the engine.

Brian Kraut
Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
www.engalt.com

-Original Message-
From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net]On
Behalf Of Ronald Metcalf
Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 2:43 PM
To: kr...@mylist.net
Subject: RE: KR> Harley motors


larry flesner

Much was said today about the Hog motor and I understand from you comments
that you have some insight into this venture and the engine now being used
in the Zenith airplane is Ok.  Also that you are in fact flying the test
bed.

I can understand that you cannot say a whole lot, but what are the vibration
levels like.

I ask because I like the engine, price, weight, sound, pedigree and would
very much like to use it - Hog Air does offer them for sale with the drive
et al.

Thank you in anticipation
Ron

_
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee.
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

KR> Harley motors

[boeing757me...@aol.com]

Never ride a Harley further that you are willing to push it back!




Chris Theroux
Gilbert, AZ

KR> Harley motors

[larry flesner]

>larry flesner
>Much was said today about the Hog motor and I understand from you comments 
>that you have some insight into this venture and the engine now being used 
>in the Zenith airplane is Ok.  Also that you are in fact flying the test 
>bed.
>Ron


I did the first flight on the 601 with the 80 hp Harley engine just one or
two days before I made the first flight on my KR last December.  That's
the only time I've actually flown the aircraft although I have several
hours in the air flying formation with it in my KR.

As to the vibration levels in this setup I'd say they would be similar to
the engine running in a bike.  It has certian rpm bands where it 
tends to vibrate a bit but an extra 100 or 200 rpm and it seems
to smooth out again.  I don't know if this is typical Harley or not
as I've only ridden one and that was about twenty years ago. I 
expect the numbness to leave my hands any day now. :-) 
He seems to have a well designed PSRU with quality components.
Matching a propeller to the engine will probably be the biggest
challange right now.  I expect you will be able to see one hanging
on a KR project at the Gathering in September.

Brett is a friend of mine and I think he is doing a good job with a
very experimental engine.  Like any new to market endevor I'd say
give him some time to prove it out before getting too excited and
I'd expect he would tell you the same.

Larry Flesner

KR> Harley motors

[Stephen Jacobs]

I did consider running an inverted EVO as my engine, it's already dry
sumped, it can run direct drive to the prop and will generate sufficient
horsepower

++

Hey Pete - what is an EVO?  I would have assumed that it was a Hog
engine but you mention a dry sump.

Steve J

KR> Harley motors

[StRaNgEdAyS]

Steve J.:
The EVO is short for the H.D. Evolution engine (from 1986 -1998/9?) It's a
darned side less shaky than the Shovel, and about 200% more reliable to boot

I'm pretty sure all H.D. engines are dry sump engines, forced lubrication
supplied by pump from an external tank. (There sure ain't no room in that
tiny crankcase for a sump)
Cheers.
 Peter Bancks
stranged...@dodo.com.au
http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com
http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net

KR> Harley motors

[Stephen Jacobs]

I'm pretty sure all H.D. engines are dry sump engines, forced
lubrication supplied by pump from an external tank.

+++

Thanks Pete

I really wish this is true, but I am struggling to see it.  Where does
the lube go - the pump has to scavenge from somewhere?

I saw potential in two engines Hz opposed (laying on their side) driving
a common shaft through one-way needle roller clutches.  Therefore twin
engine reliability in a single engine and the weight was about right.  I
dropped the idea coz I thought the motors would have to be vertical and
upright in tandem.

The current breed of Harley motors come equipped with EFI and put out
impressive numbers without being forced - a re-drive improves things and
could be incorporated in the common drive shaft.


What is a shovel?

Take care
Steve J

KR> Harley motors

[Kenneth L Wiltrout]

Anyone ever consider the goldwing 1500 or 1800 engine, it would need a
reduction unit and of course it's water cooled, but it may be an
alternative to the subbie.



On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 03:25:01 +1000 "StRaNgEdAyS" 
writes:
> Steve J.:
> The EVO is short for the H.D. Evolution engine (from 1986 -1998/9?) 
> It's a
> darned side less shaky than the Shovel, and about 200% more reliable 
> to boot
> 
> I'm pretty sure all H.D. engines are dry sump engines, forced 
> lubrication
> supplied by pump from an external tank. (There sure ain't no room in 
> that
> tiny crankcase for a sump)
> Cheers.
>  Peter Bancks
> stranged...@dodo.com.au
> http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com
> http://canardaviationforum.dmt.net
>  
> ___
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 
> 


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