KR> Tip tanks or wet Tips
Netters, I have to admit, I have deleated most of the posts on this subject, but Jeff Scott's comment about 60 lb imbalance got my attention. Glassair's have a wet tip they can add, it increase fuel capacity. Just as Mark L added to his wing tips, Glassair has a tip tank that holds about 5 gallons, ten with both. From what I can recall, nobody is running a Turbine @ 13gph. 10 gallons should give you more lift with the added area, and 2 or 3 more hours in the plane, depending on engine type. I can go about 500 miles in 4 hours with 12 gallons of fuel in my ferry tank in the seat next to me. As you recall I had a off field landing with that same tank next to me and yes the word FIRE did cross my mind. (about wet myeslf too). If some of you are looking for the cool factor of having a missile looking object on the end of the wing, my all means put one out there. Use it for storage if you want. My vote goes for alum or pvc tanks in the outboard wings. I think adding that much weight at the end of the wing is asking for trouble, just as putting 12 gallons of fuel in the seat next to you. I will be adding tanks in the wing during the fix thaqt I'm working on. Just one mans opinion ps Steve Glover call me Lee Van Dyke
KR> Tip tanks
Mike wrote: "Outboard tanks, tips or not, increase the structural ability of the wing to handle sudden increases in lift. Tip tanks, if canted like the later 310's for instance, are thought to decrease tip drag. The KR wing is strong enough that carrying fuel in the tips isn't relevant for strength issues, to my mind. And disturbing the tip vortice is more easily done than by building a fake tank. If someone wants to do it though, why not? Potential imbalance issues can be provided for easily.[Fred Johnson] " I agree, if it is purely to reduce tip vortices, the Hoerner wing tips or some sort of winglet would be a better choice, but if one wanted to add fuel capacity, I would think they are an attractive addition. Fred Johnson Reno, NV
KR> Tip tanks
Outboard tanks, tips or not, increase the structural ability of the wing to handle sudden increases in lift. Tip tanks, if canted like the later 310's for instance, are thought to decrease tip drag. The KR wing is strong enough that carrying fuel in the tips isn't relevant for strength issues, to my mind. And disturbing the tip vortice is more easily done than by building a fake tank. If someone wants to do it though, why not? Potential imbalance issues can be provided for easily. Mike KSEE Get Free Email with Video Mail & Video Chat! http://www.juno.com/freeemail?refcd=JUTAGOUT1FREM0210
KR> Tip tanks
Scott wrote: I can tell you for a fact that a 60 lb imbalance between tanks with them located at the inboard end of the wing panels is quite significant. I tested that condition in my KR. I'd sure hate to have to try to land a KR with a 60 lb imbalance at the wing tips. So I'll ask the question a bit differently. Other than the coolness factor or asthetic look of tip tanks, what would be the motivating factor for moving fuel farther outboard in the wing where it can create a potentially fatal imbalance condition when there is adequate space to build tanks where it can be safely carried closer to centerline? Perhaps I'm just a bit thick, but I don't see the advantage. [Fred Johnson] Scott, there are two reasons I have considered it besides the extra fuel. One, as Pazmany pointed out in his book, safety. The farther away from the occupants fuel is, the less likely it will be an issue if a crash were to happen (excluding, as you have pointed out, being the cause of an accident). Second, is tip tanks have two other advantages; wing tanks increase the effective aspect ratio, and two, they reduce wing tip vortices and hence reduce drag, much like a winglet does. So, besides being able to add more fuel, we have increased the wings efficiency. I'm not saying it doesn't have it's draw backs, I'm just curious as to everyone's comments and experiences with them. also, the T33/ F80 had wing tanks, and the few pilots I have know who flew them didn't indicate any issues with them? perhaps I'm wrong? I can forward a PDF copy of Pazmany's book if you want? Fred Johnson Reno, NV
KR> Tip tanks
I can tell you for a fact that a 60 lb imbalance between tanks with them located at the inboard end of the wing panels is quite significant. I tested that condition in my KR. I'd sure hate to have to try to land a KR with a 60 lb imbalance at the wing tips. So I'll ask the question a bit differently. Other than the coolness factor or asthetic look of tip tanks, what would be the motivating factor for moving fuel farther outboard in the wing where it can create a potentially fatal imbalance condition when there is adequate space to build tanks where it can be safely carried closer to centerline? Perhaps I'm just a bit thick, but I don't see the advantage. Jeff Scott Los Alamos, NM - Original Message - From: Fred Johnson Lastly, I haven't read any accounts of the Pazmany aircraft who use only wing tanks of having the same issue as the twins? Not to mention that we are talking about roughly only 60 pounds of fuel in each tank, though on a KR that might seem like a lot. Fred Johnson Reno, NV
KR> Tip tanks
Jeff wrote: "As Victor points out with the Cessna twin tip tanks, they may look cool, but they come at a pretty high cost to safety. Carrying tip tanks gives you the capability whether by accident or by mechanical failure to have the lateral balance so far out that the plane becomes uncontrollable at slow speed. Why create a safety problem when the same volume of fuel can be safely carried either in the wing stub, or the inboard section of the outer wing panel? Part of the flight testing on my KR included slow flight and landings with one wing tank full and the other empty. I designed the tank loads specifically to ensure the plane was always controllable regardless of the fuel load and configuration. Even with my wing tanks located at the inboard end of the wing panels, it doesn't take but a few gallons of imbalance for the plane to start to fly wing heavy towards the fuller side. " I agree, if that is your only fuel source, but if it's used as additional fuel source for long range flights, and the fuel is transferred to your main tanks, or burned directly. Also, so they drain simultaneously, you can run both tanks to a single pump to be used directly by the engine or to transfer to the main tanks. Most likely it would be easier to just burn the fuel directly. Lastly, I haven't read any accounts of the Pazmany aircraft who use only wing tanks of having the same issue as the twins? Not to mention that we are talking about roughly only 60 pounds of fuel in each tank, though on a KR that might seem like a lot. Fred Johnson Reno, NV
KR> Tip tanks
. Creating conditions to get you an unrecoverable spin or an uncontrollable wing heavy condition at landing speed are things that can get you killed. Jeff Scott Los Alamos, NM Jeff is spot on here. Just think if they had only three gallons each and for our purpose fuel weighs in at 6 LBS a gallon. If your fuel don't transfer out of one tank you got 18 lbs sitting on the wing tip. When you get slow the plane is going to be like a teeter-totter. On final is not the place to practice spin recovery. I don't care how good you think you are it only takes one time. Some of the best pilot of our time are no longer with us because of one mistake why increase our odds. Build smart...fly safe..
KR> Tip tanks
As Victor points out with the Cessna twin tip tanks, they may look cool, but they come at a pretty high cost to safety. Carrying tip tanks gives you the capability whether by accident or by mechanical failure to have the lateral balance so far out that the plane becomes uncontrollable at slow speed. Why create a safety problem when the same volume of fuel can be safely carried either in the wing stub, or the inboard section of the outer wing panel? Part of the flight testing on my KR included slow flight and landings with one wing tank full and the other empty. I designed the tank loads specifically to ensure the plane was always controllable regardless of the fuel load and configuration. Even with my wing tanks located at the inboard end of the wing panels, it doesn't take but a few gallons of imbalance for the plane to start to fly wing heavy towards the fuller side. Additionally, while most pilots don't spin their KRs, the enertia of a load of fuel mounted at the outboard end of the wing will make spin recovery significantly more difficult. These are very real safety issues with tip tanks. Creating conditions to get you an unrecoverable spin or an uncontrollable wing heavy condition at landing speed are things that can get you killed. Jeff Scott Los Alamos, NM
KR> Tip tanks
I have about 500 hours in Cessna 421's and 414's as well as a lot of time in 310's. In all of these there is a fuel pump in the aft end of the tank that moves fuel from the front to the back of the tank where the pickups are. These pumps run all the time. These are the main tanks on all of these airplanes ie you takeoff and land on the tips. In these aircraft loosing a pump means you will loose an engine on that side as soon as you pitch down. In all but especially in the 421 loosing a tip tank fuel pump means terminating the flight. You can crossfeed for a while until you run out of aileron. More than half of all crashes in the 421 have been from fuel starvation while having plenty of fuel onboard. Bottom line, they look great, they work great. However there MUST be a method of transferring fuel between the two rather than an equalizing tube. The reason is that should you have an unequal fuel flow and correct it with aileron you won't know you are in trouble until you slow down and discover that you don't have enough aileron. Victor Taylor Irvington, Alabama Sent from my iPhone
KR> tip tanks
I liked the looks of tip tanks and have some fake ones made them to go onto my wings. Dave Mullins Nashua, NH Fred Johnson wrote: > Rudi wrote: > > "Sakkie's plane with tip-tanks, ZS-UKU, is currently being restored after > standing for many years, more information available here: > http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=100=79408[Fred Johnson] " > > > > This is great. I have been reading Pazmany's article about the PL-1 and it > got me thinking about this on a KR. According to him, they increase wing > efficiency the same as winglets. They also increase the aspect ratio. > > Does anyone know if his tip tanks actually held fuel? > > > > Fred Johnson > Reno, NV > > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > >
KR> tip tanks
Rudi wrote: "Sakkie's plane with tip-tanks, ZS-UKU, is currently being restored after standing for many years, more information available here: http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=100=79408[Fred Johnson] " This is great. I have been reading Pazmany's article about the PL-1 and it got me thinking about this on a KR. According to him, they increase wing efficiency the same as winglets. They also increase the aspect ratio. Does anyone know if his tip tanks actually held fuel? Fred Johnson Reno, NV
KR> tip tanks
Sakkie's plane with tip-tanks, ZS-UKU, is currently being restored after standing for many years, more information available here: http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=100=79408 We still have quite a lot of KR activity here in South Africa with a recent revival of many projects, some can be seen here: http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=100 Fly safe, Rudi On 10/17/2011 8:17 PM, M Blank wrote: > Fred, sorry my memory is going...Sakkie Halgreen of South Africa, had a > KR with tip tanks. A picture is located at > (http://n323xl.iwarp.com/blouterwings1.htm). I read years ago on a Carlton > Blandford's KR site of this fellow who did lots of mods to the KR design. I > think he also had tried a KR with a small seat aft of the pilots/co-pilot > station. I believe Sakkie was killed at some point in a crash, I dont > remember the date or details. Seems lots of KR activity took place in South > Africa in the 90's. > > Mike >
KR> Tip Tanks for KR & Sakkie Green KR
There is a bit better info on the KR with tip tanks from South Africa here: (http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=100=79408) I thought this may be interesting, seems someone I believe its Cartlon, who is restoring Sakkie's KR. Mike
KR> tip tanks
Fred, sorry my memory is going...Sakkie Halgreen of South Africa, had a KR with tip tanks. A picture is located at (http://n323xl.iwarp.com/blouterwings1.htm). I read years ago on a Carlton Blandford's KR site of this fellow who did lots of mods to the KR design. I think he also had tried a KR with a small seat aft of the pilots/co-pilot station. I believe Sakkie was killed at some point in a crash, I dont remember the date or details. Seems lots of KR activity took place in South Africa in the 90's. Mike > From: f...@renotruss.com > To: kr...@mylist.net > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:48:27 -0700 > Subject: KR> tip tanks > > Has anyone ever done tip tanks on a KR? > > > > Fred Johnson > Reno, NV > > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> tip tanks
Sakki Green? > From: f...@renotruss.com > To: kr...@mylist.net > Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:48:27 -0700 > Subject: KR> tip tanks > > Has anyone ever done tip tanks on a KR? > > > > Fred Johnson > Reno, NV > > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> tip tanks
Has anyone ever done tip tanks on a KR? Fred Johnson Reno, NV
