Re: [lace] question re: terminology
Hello All, it's a bit late, I know, but I want to send you my thaughts about this subject too. In my opinion we should stop to look about those old books and the terminologie in there. the vocabulary of lace has changec a lot since the book of Mincoff and others. And it makes things only more complicate if we stack to them. I told you once the story I found in an English lace book from about 1880. There is written Barbara Uthman invented lacemaking. She lived in Harz mountain. The thruth is, she doesn't invent anything about lacemaking. She forced the people in Erzgebirge to learn lacemaking for earning their living. ANd she szcced in this. And she is born and lived in Erzgebirge not in the Harz Mountain. Hoping that I could convince you. Greeting Ilske - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] question re: terminology
Dear Jane, 1. Please, could you clarify which Author and Book Title you are referencing? It would be helpful to people who own the book, if they could put copies of some of the correspondence generated by your letter into the book. 2. Lace bulletin editors and individual Lace newsletter editors: So often, you are looking for interesting material, and this reads like a good candidate. Jeri Ames Lace and Embroidery Resource Center - In a message dated 8/11/2008 5:40:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There is a discussion on-going over terminology in different languages. I have one that we in my group have not been able to identify. It is from a 'sGravenmoere book and after much bugging of lacers and research we finally have an English translation but then, the stitch is an unknown factor. 'fond de vierge ' We have figured out it means the background or bottom is done in virgin stitch. What is the virgin stitch? Possibly roseground but if so, why in the same listing of techniques needed for the pattern have rozengrond listed? Jane O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED] New Lenox, IL USA Life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes. So have fun, think 'good thoughts' only, learn to laugh at yourself and count your blessings! - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] **Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut000517 ) - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] question re: terminology
Sure Jeri. The book is Spelen met Venne-Colcotton 2, designs by Corrie Versluis and patterns worked by Nel Westerlaken, Esther van Winden, Ine van IJzeren and Julie van der Wolf. Published in August 2004- a Bob-in book. Jane O - Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lace@arachne.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 11:40:27 AM Subject: Re: [lace] question re: terminology Dear Jane, 1. Please, could you clarify which Author and Book Title you are referencing? It would be helpful to people who own the book, if they could put copies of some of the correspondence generated by your letter into the book. 2. Lace bulletin editors and individual Lace newsletter editors: So often, you are looking for interesting material, and this reads like a good candidate. Jeri Ames Lace and Embroidery Resource Center - - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] question re: terminology
There is a discussion on-going over terminology in different languages. I have one that we in my group have not been able to identify. It is from a 'sGravenmoere book and after much bugging of lacers and research we finally have an English translation but then, the stitch is an unknown factor. 'fond de vierge ' We have figured out it means the background or bottom is done in virgin stitch. What is the virgin stitch? Possibly roseground but if so, why in the same listing of techniques needed for the pattern have rozengrond listed? Jane O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED] New Lenox, IL USA Life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes. So have fun, think 'good thoughts' only, learn to laugh at yourself and count your blessings! - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] question re: terminology
According to the glossary in Mincoff Marriage Fond à la vierge = rose stitch. In the body of the book they say that rose stitch is 'violet stitch' to Germans and 'maiden's grounding' to the French. Pat Earnshaw's Dictionary of Lace says cinq trous, five hole, fond à la vierge, virgin ground and rose stitch are all the same. Margaret L Brook calls it Maiden's net or Point de la Vierge. Cook Stott's book shows 17 variations of rose ground plus cane ground. Then there's Dillmont - she calls it 'double or ornamental ground' and what she calls rose ground is what most people nowadays would call honeycomb. So, take your pick!!! Brenda On 11 Aug 2008, at 22:39, Jane O'Connor wrote: There is a discussion on-going over terminology in different languages. I have one that we in my group have not been able to identify. It is from a 'sGravenmoere book and after much bugging of lacers and research we finally have an English translation but then, the stitch is an unknown factor. 'fond de vierge ' We have figured out it means the background or bottom is done in virgin stitch. What is the virgin stitch? Possibly roseground but if so, why in the same listing of techniques needed for the pattern have rozengrond listed? Jane O'Connor Brenda in Allhallows, Kent http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/index.html - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Question of terminology
So here goes a question: What do you call a ground which is constructed as follows: Whole Stitch (CTCT, or TCTC), Pin, Whole Stitch? Hi Tamara, I was taught - by an English Lacemaker in Scotland - that this stitch is whole stitch and twist, I've also heard it called double stitch jenny in a very frosty Moray in Scotland - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Question of terminology
Hello Tamara I avoid the term whole stitch for that very reason! When I was first taught BL the CTC bandage was whole stitch but when it came to making diamond blocks of CTC they were linen stitch whilst the same block worked CT was half stitch. With torchon ground it was either CT pin CT which was called half stitch, pin, half stitch - or it was CTCT pin CTCT which was double half stitch, pin double half stitch. Since those early days, having read lots of different books and made contact with lots of lacemakers around the world I say/write: half stitch for CT cloth stitch for CTC and double half stitch for CTCT (read TC, CTC and TCTC if you work the open method) Ground constructed CTCT p CTCT is what I would call torchon double ground worked as double half stitch, pin, double half stitch. In a similar vein, if you read old books you will get very confused about what is roseground, honeycomb ground and virgin ground! Brenda So here goes a question: What do you call a ground which is constructed as follows: Whole Stitch (CTCT, or TCTC), Pin, Whole Stitch? My Canadian Lacemaking Gazette's A Guide to Threads for Lacemakers says one thing, my Stillwell's Illustrated Dictionary of Lacemaking says something else entirely. So I'm left, if not actually speechless, then wordless... Brenda in Allhallows, Kent http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/index.html - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Question of terminology
Hello Tamara, yes, that's the old question, I know ir and in each class in the US or Australia we discuss it. In Germany we have three ground stitches, half stitch - Halbschlag CT, linnen stitch - LeinenschlagCTC and Ganzschlag sometimes as whole stitch and sometimes as linnen stitch plus twist in English. We took this names from the Belge and most Europeans do so except the English. the North Americans mostly influenced from the English now have this problem. By the way the Australians too. The ground you mentioned we call in Germany Brüsseler Schlag - Brussels stitch and it belongs to the Torchon grounds. Hope this helps. Greetings Ilske - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Question of terminology
It is a problem with many books and you need to check out what is being described as cloth stitch and whole stitch (or cs + twist or ws + twist). When we first re-started the Canadian Lacemaker Gazette with the Ottawa Lace Guild there was a lot of discussion on this topic and how we were going to describe the various stitches. It was decided that half stitch (CT), cloth stitch (CTC) and whole stitch (CTCT) would be the way that the stitches would be described. I don't think the current board of the Gazette has changed that, but I'm sure Bev will let us know when she logs on later. The 3 grounds are (in my mind at least) Torchon ground (half stitch, pin, half stitch); Dieppe ground (half stitch, pin, half stitch + twist); and Brussels ground (whole stitch, pin, whole stitch i.e. ctct pin ctct) Malvary in Ottawa (the Nations Capital) where we are battening down for a mega storm with 55cm of snow (22 inches) - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Question of terminology
On Dec 15, 2007 9:20 PM, Tamara P Duvall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So here goes a question: What do you call a ground which is constructed as follows: Whole Stitch (CTCT, or TCTC), Pin, Whole Stitch... I call it CTCT, pin, CTCT ground ... ;) At Canadian Lacemaker Gazette on page 3 of any issue now, is a text box, thus: C: Cross = left over right (Le fil de gauche passe sur le fil de droite) T: Twist = right over left (Le fil de droite passe sur le fil de gauche) Then as appropriate within magazine articles we write the stitch combination in the code CT or CTC or CTCT (or TC etc.) . If a contributing author mentions a specific term that could be confusing in working a pattern, we write the code for it also. For clarity :D -- Bev (near Sooke, BC on beautiful Vancouver Island, west coast of Canada) - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Question of terminology
I was taught that that was whole stitch ground. Robin P. Tamara P Duvall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So here goes a question: What do you call a ground which is constructed as follows: Whole Stitch (CTCT, or TCTC), Pin, Whole Stitch? - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Question of terminology
Tamara wrote: So here goes a question: What do you call a ground which is constructed as follows: Whole Stitch (CTCT, or TCTC), Pin, Whole Stitch... And Bev replied: I call it CTCT, pin, CTCT ground ... ;)\ I'm with Bev. And I've had at least one teacher who also describes her patterns with C and T rather than defining stitches. I don't see any need to describe lace using stitches. In my mind, I see lace as a textile constructed from a series of Cs and Ts in a variety of orders, and I see half stitch, Dieppe stitch and all the other stitches as artificial labels for a defined series of movements. If the meaning of these labels has become confused, as so many people suggest, than you can either describe the pattern by breaking it down to Cs and Ts, or if you're colour-coding a diagram, you can add a legend that says what series of moves a particular colour refers to. Then everything is clear, no matter where you grew up or what book you read. Adele North Vancouver, BC (west coast of Canada) - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Question of terminology
- Original Message - From: Adele Shaak [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tamara wrote: So here goes a question: What do you call a ground which is constructed as follows: Whole Stitch (CTCT, or TCTC), Pin, Whole Stitch... And Bev replied: I call it CTCT, pin, CTCT ground ... ;)\ I'm with Bev. And I've had at least one teacher who also describes her patterns with C and T rather than defining stitches. I don't see any need to describe lace using stitches. I heartily agree with Adele. As someone who finds it hard to remember names for things (and people), it is much easier to see CTCT, pin, CTCT and not to need to look up Double ground or Brussels ground and then try to associate the name with the stitch. Sue - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Question of terminology
Gentle Spiders, A rose may smell as sweetly by any other name, but, when it comes to lace, I like to have as few names as possible for the same item. In fact, I prefer to have *just one* name, if at all possible :) So here goes a question: What do you call a ground which is constructed as follows: Whole Stitch (CTCT, or TCTC), Pin, Whole Stitch? My Canadian Lacemaking Gazette's A Guide to Threads for Lacemakers says one thing, my Stillwell's Illustrated Dictionary of Lacemaking says something else entirely. So I'm left, if not actually speechless, then wordless... -- Tamara P Duvallhttp://t-n-lace.net/ Lexington, Virginia, USA (Formerly of Warsaw, Poland) - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
