Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Juha Manninen]

On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 7:23 PM, Giuliano Colla
 wrote:
> Back to the original thread subject, IMO the best course is simply to remove
> the PaintSwastika procedure, which is out of place in a small collection of
> simple graphic shapes ...

Yes, I also realized how limited the selection of graphs there was.
Such a library should have everything or nothing.
And yes, the library does not belong to the project's core
distribution. Instead we should ASAP have an online package installer
which has been planned for long but still not implemented. I must lift
it up in my own priority list.

I still think such library is justified because it is not a collection
of image files but a code library drawing simple graph symbols and
flags on canvas. For a complicated graph an image file is better.
This library would also compete with Unicode text because Unicode now
contains many well known graphics, but fonts installed on a system may
not support them all.
The library could be made as a helper class for TCanvas thus making it
easy to use.

Anyway I am sorry for my strong comments. Opinions around this topic
inevitably insult and intimidate somebody.

Juha

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Juha Manninen]

On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 10:34 PM, Giuliano Colla
 wrote:
> But if you take a small collection where the only one politically relevant
> is the swastika, then you have a collection which is politically BIASED, not
> politically NEUTRAL.

This collection of shapes is quite limited indeed. One could say it was biased.
What if come up with library that draws all important symbols? Most of
them intimidate somebody when drawn separately, but a program can draw
them all in one canvas side by side.
People can look at them and see that they are just graphs. They don't
fight or anything.
The end result will be ... world peace!
Heh, one more problem solved. :)

Juha

P.S.
 Sorry for the heated discussion.

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Giuliano Colla]

Il 09/01/2016 14:09, Juha Manninen ha scritto:

What if come up with library that draws all important symbols?


Well, of course you're free to do with your time whatever you please or 
feel right about.


But please consider the following.

The Internet is crowded with drawings of all conceivable symbols. There 
are myriads of such collection:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Political_symbols_by_ideology
https://www.google.it/search?q=political+symbols=lnms=isch=X=0ahUKEwjUxMe8m53KAhWCwBQKHVgNBXsQ_AUIBygB=1440=636
https://www.google.it/search?q=religious+symbols=1440=636=isch=u=univ=X=0ahUKEwjxhJOenJ3KAhUHRhQKHcQNDL4QsAQIHg

On the other hand there's only a handful of good Lazarus programmers and 
developers.


The Open Source community provides a common ground where people of 
different religions, of different political opinions, coming from 
different countries, sometimes at war the one against the other, work 
together for a common goal, and learn to respect and appreciate each 
other for what they are and what they can do, disregarding any 
religious, political or ethnic label they carry.


Just take a look to the list of the Lazarus contributors and of the 
Lazarus mailing list to understand what I mean. You'll spot there Arabs 
and Jews, Americans, Russians and Chinese, whites, blacks and yellows, 
people coming from the richest countries of the world and people coming 
from the poorest, etc. etc. (I failed to locate Native Americans and 
Inuit, but possibly only because of e-mail nicknames ambiguity)
You'll also notice that fpc and Lazarus (as most of the OS projects) try 
to support at the same time the latest technology for the lucky ones 
living in rich countries, and the older ones for those who can't afford it.


IMHO what you're currently doing, i.e. doing your best in an OS project 
is a much more substantial way to contribute to the world peace, than 
spending time in another symbol library which would just add to the many 
existing and pass completely unnoticed.


Back to the original thread subject, IMO the best course is simply to 
remove the PaintSwastika procedure, which is out of place in a small 
collection of simple graphic shapes, and only risks to give a pro-Nazi 
flavour to the collection, instead of losing time in populating the 
collection with all the other conceivable symbols, which most likely 
nobody is ever going to insert in a Lazarus program.


Just my opinion,

Giuliano


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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Marc Santhoff]

On Do, 2016-01-07 at 18:14 -0500, Anthony Walter wrote:
> > Napoleon conquered the world some 200 years ago. That is long enough as
> nobody seems to have strong negative association with his actions
> 
> Follow this link if you want to see why WW2, and by extension the people
> who created it and the symbols they used, is such a big deal:
> 
> http://www.fallen.io/ww2/
> 
> In short, WW2 resulted in more deaths than any event in human history
> including the Black Death, the Napoleonic wars, the great Flu Pandemic of
> 1918, and Pol Pot anti intellectualism cleansing or chairman Mao's program
> of cultural cleansing.

You at least forget about Thirty Years' War.

>  I have five uncles, on both my mother's and father's
> side, who fought and died in WW2. When I've visited their graves in France
> and Hawaii everyone I met seemed to a good understanding of the war's cost
> in human life on both sides, and also the new connotations symbols like the
> Swastika had taken, for better or worse.

That very sad. But to boil down all this on one Symbol is much to
simple. And ignoring all other uses of a symbol is intolerant.

> Even if you like the shape of the Nazi style Swastika, and have
> appreciation of its history in Finland, most everyone in the developed
> Western world now recognizes it as a symbol of Nazism, and by extension a
> symbol of prejudicial racism and hate.

All of that has nothing to do with an internationally used programming
project.

-- 
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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Juha Manninen]

On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 1:14 AM, Anthony Walter  wrote:
> I have five uncles, on both my mother's and father's
> side, who fought and died in WW2. When I've visited their graves in France
> and Hawaii everyone I met seemed to a good understanding of the war's cost
> in human life on both sides, and also the new connotations symbols like the
> Swastika had taken, for better or worse.

My relatives, including my would-be-uncle was killed by Russians, yet
I don't feel like I should advertise it in a programming mailing list.
Of course people in France and Hawaii know the symbol of the evil
Nazis because it has been repeated again and again in books,
TV-documentaries and Hollywood movies. It has been kind of
brain-washing. Even if the facts are correct, many other facts are
left out.
Think for example the victims of Stalin's genocide in eastern Europe.
They were called traitors and "enemies of Soviet Union" in the
propaganda. Their relatives had to live in shame. Nobody felt sympathy
for them. No Hollywood movies were made of their fate. Yet they were
good people just like your uncles.
To get more perspective, please read also other parts of the history,
not only the Nazi part.

I have seen similar attitude from English and US people before. Strong
feeling of being right, at the same time ignorance of many facts. I
can confess it irritates me.


> Even if you like the shape of the Nazi style Swastika, and have appreciation
> of its history in Finland, most everyone in the developed Western world now
> recognizes it as a symbol of Nazism, and by extension a symbol of
> prejudicial racism and hate.

Yes, because it has been repeated again and again. It must change! It
has been 3 - 4 generations already. It is time to see things in
historical perspective and stop punishing a graphical symbol.


@Mattias:
> The historic relativism in some mails are shocking and shows horrific lack of 
> historic knowledge.
> There was nothing good about the Nazis and it was their ideology and
> symbolism that got them to power and still attracts people to their twisted 
> beliefs.

Nobody here was pro-Nazi.
Your view of history is also strongly biased. You were taught that
your country-men did wrong. You learned your lesson, good.
However there are other horrible things done in the world but the
guilty parties did not got punished and didn't even feel guilty. It
means the world is very unjust. Nazis got what they deserved but most
other bad guys didn't.

Hence I stick with my plan and will put up a graph routine library
after consulting from Seppo.
It can contain any important symbol from human history without any
bias. It certainly must contain the Hammer-and-Sickle symbol, too,
although it has been for many eastern European people like the
swastika was for Jewish people. Any old religious symbol can be added
equally well.

Censoring graphs does not belong to the domain of an international
programming project!
We can show good example here by being completely neutral politically.
Besides it may be important for the future. When the project is pulled
into politics, it can escalate rapidly.

Political correctness is not desired if it means that a subset of bad
things can be criticised and everybody must agree with it, but other
bad things must be ignored.
No, this project must be politically NEUTRAL instead.

Juha

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Gustavo Enrique Jimenez]

Now this is strange: a "FREE SOFTWARE" project discussing whether they
should or should not discuss political/historical/cultural views.

2016-01-08 13:43 GMT-03:00 Shaun O'Connor :
> I concur completely,  Just because a particular  graphic is included in the
> distribution densest oblige one to make use of it.
>
> If we all got nit picky about the meaning of various symbols we would never
> get anywhere, , I say let the matter rest and concentrate on continuing the
> good work of a fine open source project.
>
>
> On 08/01/2016 15:34, Donald Ziesig wrote:
>>
>> My two cents.
>>
>> This has gotten completely out of hand.  When an item has multiple
>> meanings (e.g., artistic, religious or offensive political history) we
>> should give it the benefit of the doubt and LEAVE IT IN.
>>
>> This is Lazarus (an international programming organization), not a
>> totalitarian regime.  As was exemplified before, should we paint a Hindu who
>> is printing a religious symbol with the same brush as a Neo-Nazi?  I say NO.
>> Most people who are technically competent enough to install and use Lazarus
>> have the ability to draw anything they want anyway.
>>
>> PLEASE, LET'S TERMINATE THIS THREAD, NOW!
>>
>> Don Ziesig
>>
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>
>
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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[wkitty42]

On 01/08/2016 10:44 AM, Mattias Gaertner wrote:

On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 09:05:56 -0500
wkitt...@windstream.net wrote:


[...]

There is a difference between forbidding a flag and promoting it.


having built-in procedures to paint flags and symbols is not promoting those
symbols and flags...


I'm glad that you agree that removing a helper function is not
"forbidding".


hahaha... yes, removing it is not "forbidding" it... but having (unknowingly) 
had it, knowing that it has been removed leaves an empty hole :?



I'm not a native English speaker so maybe "promoting" is the wrong
word. Maybe a better word is support, boost, encourage or help on.


i was thinking of "promoting" as in commercials where a product is promoted...


Although after this long mail thread the function is pretty much promoted.


true dat...

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Giuliano Colla]

Il 08/01/2016 18:47, Juha Manninen ha scritto:

No, this project must be politically NEUTRAL instead.


I perfectly agree with this statement of yours, but this is not the case.

I would never object to a collection of religious and political symbols, 
where swastika could have its place together with hammer-and sickle, 
crosses of different style, muslim crescent, star of David, etc.


But if you take a small collection where the only one politically 
relevant is the swastika, then you have a collection which is 
politically BIASED, not politically NEUTRAL.


The problem doesn't arise from the swastika being included, it arises 
from all the rest which isn't, and which makes the swastika stand out.


Most likely in an unintended way, but this is what appears to a casual 
observer, and which gave rise to this thread.


Just my 2 cents.

Giuliano


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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Ondrej Pokorny]

On 08.01.2016 11:35, Mattias Gaertner wrote:

The unit provides example functions for some common symbols, especially
drawing flags (e.g. PaintBarbadosTrident, PaintCanadianMaple).
It does not support a big amount of flags and symbols. It only supports
a few selected flags and one of them was the flag of the Nazis.
In that sense it was political and not the intention of Lazarus.


In this case please remove PaintCanadianMaple and PaintPentagon as well 
because of the genocide on native Americans by the U.S. and Canadian 
government. PaintFivePointStar has to be removed as well because (among 
others) it is used in the U.S. flag and in the former Soviet Union flag.


Ondrej

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Mark Morgan Lloyd]

Ondrej Pokorny wrote:

On 08.01.2016 11:35, Mattias Gaertner wrote:

The unit provides example functions for some common symbols, especially
drawing flags (e.g. PaintBarbadosTrident, PaintCanadianMaple).
It does not support a big amount of flags and symbols. It only supports
a few selected flags and one of them was the flag of the Nazis.
In that sense it was political and not the intention of Lazarus.


In this case please remove PaintCanadianMaple and PaintPentagon as well 
because of the genocide on native Americans by the U.S. and Canadian 
government. PaintFivePointStar has to be removed as well because (among 
others) it is used in the U.S. flag and in the former Soviet Union flag.


And there's a long-running campaign against Trident in the UK ;-)

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Mattias Gaertner]

On Fri, 08 Jan 2016 11:19:09 +0100
Zeljko  wrote:

>[...]
> Shall we ask hollywood producers to stop making 
> movies/documentaries which shows german nazi flag ? Shall we ask video 
> games makers to stop produce games which shows nazi symbols (eg. 
> wolfenstein) ? C'mon ppl what drugs do you use ?
> Again, this is completely wrong. We are not political or religion 
> organization, we are talking about paint procedure which paints symbol.

There is a difference between forbidding a flag and promoting it.

Mattias

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Tony Whyman]

Juha,

Well said. This clearly came from the heart. It is not important as to 
whether or not I agree with what you have said. What is important is 
that you have and have exercised the right of free speech and that is 
what this is all about. Free speech may not include the "right to shout 
fire in a crowded theatre", but it does and should include the right to 
offend.


Totalitarian regimes whether they be Fascist or Communist fear free 
speech more than anything else and it is our strongest weapon against 
them. It should never be compromised.


If anyone has any doubts about whether or not the whole precept of this 
thread is wrong then they need only to take a look at  "The Stoning" 
sketch from Monty Python's Life of Brian. Here we have a man being 
stoned to death for simply saying that "that Halibut was fit for 
Jehovah". The context was irrelevant. The mere fact that he said 
"Jehovah" was enough to condemn him. There then follows sketch of total 
farce whether anyone who makes the mistake of referring to the fact that 
he said "Jehovah" is themselves stoned.


That sketch is almost a modern parable because it is telling us that 
it's not the word or symbol that is important. It is the context in 
which it is used.


If a Hindu uses a PaintSwastika procedure to print out a religious tract 
then what is the problem? On the other hand if some silly kid uses it to 
print out a offensive poster, etc. etc. then they only make themselves 
look stupid and ignorant and, in the worst case, there are laws to 
handle this. Either way, blaming Lazarus for the allowing the second 
case is denying the right of the first to pursue their lawful business 
and is just basically wrong.


And worse: you are on the slippery slope to proposing that English is 
replaced by a language called Newspeak where it is impossible to utter 
or think an heretical thought.


Let's end this double plus ungood quackspeak.

Good day

Tony Whyman

On 07/01/16 19:29, Juha Manninen wrote:

On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Terry A. Haimann  wrote:

As someone of Jewish heritage I say get rid of it.

Mattias actually removed the function, obeying like a good German boy
when somebody with "Jewish heritage" tells him. Uhhh, I can't believe
he did so!

I planned to write "let's stop this nonsense before this project is
pulled into politics", but now it is too late.
Removing an ancient graph which is part of human heritage only for
political reasons has a strong symbolic meaning.
This project had no political or religious connections before this
thread, at least that I knew of.
The symbols drawn by the lib were not presented in any political
context. Nobody saw a problem during the years.
Anthony, I am surprised by your attitude and lack of perspective. Your
thread practically turned this project into politics. Damn!

Swastika is used in far East in Hinduism, Jainism, Buddism and others.
It is not only history, it is used currently today.
Its meanings are prosperity, security, glory, "good luck", "God's energy" etc.
Anybody from India reading this? This mail thread must appear rather
weird. Many Indian people don't know what Judaism or Nazism are
exactly, or at least don't have strong emotions about them.

More perspective: I would welcome a PaintHammerAndSickle procedure to
the lib from Dmitry, although it carries negative association in my
country and in other ex-Soviet neighbours, and for a reason.
Still, it is just a graph. The purpose of this project is not to judge
any graph symbol. They happen to exist for whatever reason.

Historical fact is that Stalin's governance killed MORE people than
Hitler's. He was MORE evil by any measurement.
He just killed a minority after another without any plan by pure evilness.
If you read what happened in countries occupied by Soviet Union, it
matches the Holocaust. However those people could not complain to
anybody, the propaganda made them look guilty instead.
Why was Stalin not convicted as a war criminal and hung? Well, because
he happened to win the war!
The history is always written by winners. I think it was politically
incorrect to write critically about him now.
However it is politically correct to criticise Nazis. When somebody
with "Jewish heritage" tells to remove an ancient symbol only because
Nazis happened to use it some 75 years ago, everybody must obey and
nod their heads in acceptance.
Uhhh, this sucks badly!

What about USA? They have attacked countries around the world during
decades, sometimes secretly, sometimes openly, killing people only
because they didn't happen to like the government. That is evil, too.
Should we ban all symbols associated with USA?

No, censoring graph symbols would be a never-ending swamp. This is an
international project but the world is unjust.
Always there is some group who is treated bad by some other group and
want to ban their symbols.
This project must be outside of politics! If there is a graph library,
it must be allowed to draw 

Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Zeljko]

On 01/08/2016 10:48 AM, Mark Morgan Lloyd wrote:

Juha Manninen wrote:

On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Terry A. Haimann 
wrote:

As someone of Jewish heritage I say get rid of it.


Mattias actually removed the function, obeying like a good German boy
when somebody with "Jewish heritage" tells him. Uhhh, I can't believe
he did so!


I read what he said as meaning that he had removed it before Terry
objected. English tenses can be vague, but let's give them the benefit
of the doubt just this once.

As somebody who (I believe) lost family, rather than just claiming a
certain heritage, could we please drop this.


I completely disagree with removing paintswastika procedure.
I've lost big part of my family during ww2, they were killed by italian 
faschists and german nazis, also some of them were killed by comunists 
after WW2, also some of them are missing and nobody knows where their 
bones are.
All I can say that I fully agree with Juha. IMO, we went in completely 
wrong direction with this theme.
Shall we remove PaintStar() because comunism kill many ppl around world 
(and some members of my family too), PaintCross() because christians 
killed many natives in south america, forbid painting of French flag 
because of Napoleon ? Shall we ask hollywood producers to stop making 
movies/documentaries which shows german nazi flag ? Shall we ask video 
games makers to stop produce games which shows nazi symbols (eg. 
wolfenstein) ? C'mon ppl what drugs do you use ?
Again, this is completely wrong. We are not political or religion 
organization, we are talking about paint procedure which paints symbol.


zeljko


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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Mattias Gaertner]

On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 01:27:20 +0100
"Roberto P."  wrote:

> My 2 cents:
> 
> 1) a program routine is just a program routine, like pencils or a
> paintbrush; neither of them is symbol.
> If you are not comfortable with that symbol (any symbol that can be
> offensive to anyone), you just have not to paint it and not to call the
> routine.
> Think about the difference!
> (Example to help: I know at least a way to commit a homicide, but I don't
> call that routine of mine, therefore I am not guitly of homicide)
 
The unit provides example functions for some common symbols, especially
drawing flags (e.g. PaintBarbadosTrident, PaintCanadianMaple). 
It does not support a big amount of flags and symbols. It only supports
a few selected flags and one of them was the flag of the Nazis.
In that sense it was political and not the intention of Lazarus.


> 2) please, revert the change, just to remember to anyone what the project
> is, what the free software is.

You can still draw the symbol with a few lines of code.

Mattias

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Mark Morgan Lloyd]

Juha Manninen wrote:

On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Terry A. Haimann  wrote:

As someone of Jewish heritage I say get rid of it.


Mattias actually removed the function, obeying like a good German boy
when somebody with "Jewish heritage" tells him. Uhhh, I can't believe
he did so!


I read what he said as meaning that he had removed it before Terry 
objected. English tenses can be vague, but let's give them the benefit 
of the doubt just this once.


As somebody who (I believe) lost family, rather than just claiming a 
certain heritage, could we please drop this.


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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Mattias Gaertner]

On Thu, 7 Jan 2016 23:27:50 +0200
Juha Manninen  wrote:

>[...]
> Unfortunately popular symbols get negative associations sometimes. How
> long it takes to get rid of them?

As long as it takes to get rid of Neo-Nazis.

How long does it take to find out that this thread is going off-topic?

Mattias

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Dmitry Boyarintsev]

On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 2:48 AM, Marc Santhoff  wrote:

> It is. I'm living in Germany, and the law forbids the use of Nazi
> symbols. I don't know exactly, what it looks like, but there actually is
> a clear definition how it looks like. Probably the circle around the
> swastika and the color scheme play a role.
>

This is some sort of odd coincidence:
http://news.sky.com/story/1618909/hitlers-mein-kampf-on-sale-again-in-germany
But bans are expiring.

thanks,
Dmitry
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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Marc Santhoff]

On Fr, 2016-01-08 at 08:16 -0500, Dmitry Boyarintsev wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 2:43 AM, Marc Santhoff  wrote:
> 
> > People see something and are driven by feelings. I watched a case like
> > this already regarding FreeBSD. Some users insisted of changing the
> > deamon logo because they are afraif of the devil. Rather  ridiculous, it
> > actually was a cuddly toy or comic like figure, but in the end the logo
> > got changed.
> >
> 
> Was it changed? I can still see it on their official site.
> https://www.freebsd.org/
> 
> Btw, this is bsd thread (
> http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2010-July/219173.html)
> seems to be identical to PaintSwastika.

I did not follow it completely, bailed out early.

IIRC the startup screen having an ASCII-art was changed at least, even
better it was made switchable.

You're right, the old one is still or again visible, but it is the
mascot now. The official logo, seen above besides the FreeBSD-Name, is
only a sphere with two cone peaks.

It is used there, too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeBSD

and the page has a paragraph about the logo, linking there:
http://www.osnews.com/story/9660/FreeBSD-logo-design-competition

So it were not only technical reasons reagarding graphics printing but
complaints motivated by religion that made it happen later on. Robert
Watson is one of the project leaders.

-- 
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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[ListMember]

Mattias,

This sudden eruption of political correctness inspired me; and, as a 
person of proper upbringing, it led me to realize just how offended I 
have been all through these years of the profanity and vulgar language 
sprinkled in and among Lazarus sourcecode.


A quick search reveals 69 occurrences of 'cunt' and 499 occurrences of 
'shit' (either as whole word or part of one) [see below for details].


Knowing that you're at least as sensitive as I am, I trust you will take 
immediate action to remove these offending words from the source code in 
order to keep it all pristine and immune to misinterpretation.


Thank you for your diligance.

== OCCURENCES OF 'cunt'==

Processing file : components\fpcunit\ide\fpcunitlazideintf.pas
2016-01-07 14:19:08, 10890 bytes
Line  93 -   sFP*CUnT*estApp = 'FPCUnit Test Application';
Line  94 -   sFP*CUnT*estAppDesc = 'FPCUnit Test Application%sAn 
application to run '

Line  97 -   sFP*CUnT*estCase = 'FPCUnit Test Case';
Line  98 -   sFP*CUnT*estCaseDesc = 'FPCUnit Test Case%sA unit 
containing a FPCUnit Test '

Line 126 -   Result:=sFP*CUnT*estApp;
Line 134 -   Result:=Format(sFP*CUnT*estAppDesc,[le+le,le]);
Line 249 -   Result:=sFP*CUnT*estCase;
Line 254 -   Result:=Format(sFP*CUnT*estCaseDesc,[#13]);
Found 8 occurrences.
Processing file : components\fpcunit\ide\languages\fpcunitlazideintf.cs.po
2016-01-07 14:19:08, 1625 bytes
Line  21 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estapp
Line  25 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estappdesc
Line  29 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estcase
Line  33 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estcasedesc
Found 4 occurrences.
Processing file : components\fpcunit\ide\languages\fpcunitlazideintf.fr.po
2016-01-07 14:19:08, 1787 bytes
Line  22 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estapp
Line  26 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estappdesc
Line  30 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estcase
Line  34 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estcasedesc
Found 4 occurrences.
Processing file : components\fpcunit\ide\languages\fpcunitlazideintf.hu.po
2016-01-07 14:19:08, 1654 bytes
Line  22 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estapp
Line  26 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estappdesc
Line  30 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estcase
Line  34 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estcasedesc
Found 4 occurrences.
Processing file : components\fpcunit\ide\languages\fpcunitlazideintf.it.po
2016-01-07 14:19:08, 1753 bytes
Line  22 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estapp
Line  26 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estappdesc
Line  30 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estcase
Line  34 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estcasedesc
Found 4 occurrences.
Processing file : components\fpcunit\ide\languages\fpcunitlazideintf.lt.po
2016-01-07 14:19:08, 1787 bytes
Line  22 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estapp
Line  26 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estappdesc
Line  30 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estcase
Line  34 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estcasedesc
Found 4 occurrences.
Processing file : components\fpcunit\ide\languages\fpcunitlazideintf.po
2016-01-07 14:19:08, 908 bytes
Line  12 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estapp
Line  16 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estappdesc
Line  20 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estcase
Line  24 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estcasedesc
Found 4 occurrences.
Processing file : 
components\fpcunit\ide\languages\fpcunitlazideintf.pt_BR.po

2016-01-07 14:19:08, 1945 bytes
Line  21 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estapp
Line  25 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estappdesc
Line  30 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estcase
Line  34 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estcasedesc
Found 4 occurrences.
Processing file : components\fpcunit\ide\languages\fpcunitlazideintf.ru.po
2016-01-07 14:19:08, 2146 bytes
Line  21 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estapp
Line  25 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estappdesc
Line  30 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estcase
Line  34 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estcasedesc
Found 4 occurrences.
Processing file : components\fpcunit\ide\languages\fpcunitlazideintf.uk.po
2016-01-07 14:19:08, 1809 bytes
Line  20 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estapp
Line  24 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estappdesc
Line  28 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estcase
Line  32 - #: fpcunitlazideintf.sfp*cunt*estcasedesc
Found 4 occurrences.
Processing file : components\lazdebuggergdbmi\gdbmidebugger.pp
2016-01-07 14:19:08, 417263 bytes
Line 5925 - ProcessRunError; // will set dsPause / unless 
Can*Cunt*inue
Line 5931 - ProcessException; // will set dsPause / unless 
Can*Cunt*inue

Found 2 occurrences.
Processing file : components\pochecker\graphstat.pp
2016-01-07 14:19:08, 10531 bytes
Line 116 - AStat.NrUnTranslated, AStat.Per*cUnT*ranslated,
Line 229 - UnTranslated16Angle   := Round(AStat.Fra*cUnt*ranslated * 
FullCircle);

Found 2 occurrences.
Processing file : components\pochecker\pocheckerconsts.pas
2016-01-07 14:19:08, 8376 bytes
Line  97 -   sPer*cUnt*ranslated = '%s: %4.1f%% untranslated strings.';

Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[wkitty42]

On 01/08/2016 06:16 AM, Mattias Gaertner wrote:

On Fri, 08 Jan 2016 11:19:09 +0100
Zeljko  wrote:


[...]
Shall we ask hollywood producers to stop making
movies/documentaries which shows german nazi flag ? Shall we ask video
games makers to stop produce games which shows nazi symbols (eg.
wolfenstein) ? C'mon ppl what drugs do you use ?
Again, this is completely wrong. We are not political or religion
organization, we are talking about paint procedure which paints symbol.


There is a difference between forbidding a flag and promoting it.


having built-in procedures to paint flags and symbols is not promoting those 
symbols and flags...


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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Lukasz Sokol]

Hello Matthias,

On 08/01/16 10:40, Mattias Gaertner wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Jan 2016 23:27:50 +0200
> Juha Manninen  wrote:
> 
>> [...]
>> Unfortunately popular symbols get negative associations sometimes. How
>> long it takes to get rid of them?
> 
> As long as it takes to get rid of Neo-Nazis.

Writing as someone, who came from a place that was stuck long enough
between the 2 totalitarisms most vocally mentioned in this thread,

and had been taught about either of them, either from school or from books, or 
movies etc.
and from first-hand account of experience of either military presence,

( though I am too young to have seen them myself,
 my grandmother lived through evac from the nazi front of 1939; lived nearly 5 
years in nazi-occupied country;
 and then was 'liberated' by the soviets some years later, however unscathed, 
there were things happening, one can't unsee/ignore;
 and then my parents lived in a country quasi-remote-controlled from the east, 
half their adult lives;
 (yeah, Poland; speaking for myself only here tho)),

(I only include the above so you know where I'm coming from),

I only wish to say 2 things, in my own opinion:

- history when mistaught or not taught at all, tends to repeat itself (as we 
see all over the place, in this century)
Eradicating knowledge about what their ideologies were actually about, 
is a straight way to undo the efforts to get rid of them.

See how usage of the nazi symbols in most of countries is banned from public 
space, but allowed for educational purposes,
and that is IMO right.

- over-eagerness/zealotism is about /the/ only thing in the world worse than 
fascism.
That also applies to over-reaction to Political Correctness requests.

> 
> How long does it take to find out that this thread is going off-topic?
> 
It's long past. Now we exercise our Freedom of Speech rights ;J

> Mattias
> 
Lukasz


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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Dmitry Boyarintsev]

On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 2:43 AM, Marc Santhoff  wrote:

> People see something and are driven by feelings. I watched a case like
> this already regarding FreeBSD. Some users insisted of changing the
> deamon logo because they are afraif of the devil. Rather  ridiculous, it
> actually was a cuddly toy or comic like figure, but in the end the logo
> got changed.
>

Was it changed? I can still see it on their official site.
https://www.freebsd.org/

Btw, this is bsd thread (
http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2010-July/219173.html)
seems to be identical to PaintSwastika.

thanks,
Dmitry
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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Marc Santhoff]

On Fr, 2016-01-08 at 08:25 -0500, Dmitry Boyarintsev wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 2:48 AM, Marc Santhoff  wrote:
> 
> > It is. I'm living in Germany, and the law forbids the use of Nazi
> > symbols. I don't know exactly, what it looks like, but there actually is
> > a clear definition how it looks like. Probably the circle around the
> > swastika and the color scheme play a role.
> >
> 
> This is some sort of odd coincidence:
> http://news.sky.com/story/1618909/hitlers-mein-kampf-on-sale-again-in-germany
> But bans are expiring.

It's in the news all day ...

The bavarian government, who owned the publishing rights, did not want
to allow re-printing. Now these rights are invalidated by german
copyright law.

The new release is a commented version, it shall be usable for teaching
because of the comments. A commission of scientists has taken three year
to make it.

OTOH the raw text is said to be downloadable from the internet very easy
ever sinc (the net exists).

But we're even further off topic now.

-- 
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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Mattias Gaertner]

The historic relativism in some mails are shocking and shows
horrific lack of historic knowledge.
There was nothing good about the Nazis and it was their ideology and
symbolism that got them to power and still attracts people to their
twisted beliefs.

There is nothing wrong with a PaintSwastika or even a CrookedCross in
a library for flags and symbols. But extgraphics is merely a bunch of
example functions to draw some common flags.

Normally when someone proposes to remove a function there is a small
discussion what code is affected. As far as I see no one actually uses
the function. Instead it creates political discussions. This function
has failed its purpose.

Mattias

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Shaun O'Connor]

I concur completely,  Just because a particular  graphic is included in 
the distribution densest oblige one to make use of it.


If we all got nit picky about the meaning of various symbols we would 
never get anywhere, , I say let the matter rest and concentrate on 
continuing the good work of a fine open source project.


On 08/01/2016 15:34, Donald Ziesig wrote:

My two cents.

This has gotten completely out of hand.  When an item has multiple 
meanings (e.g., artistic, religious or offensive political history) we 
should give it the benefit of the doubt and LEAVE IT IN.


This is Lazarus (an international programming organization), not a 
totalitarian regime.  As was exemplified before, should we paint a 
Hindu who is printing a religious symbol with the same brush as a 
Neo-Nazi?  I say NO.  Most people who are technically competent enough 
to install and use Lazarus have the ability to draw anything they want 
anyway.


PLEASE, LET'S TERMINATE THIS THREAD, NOW!

Don Ziesig

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[markbass72]

my 2 cents

in a development environment there should be no room for any kind of 
symbolism, only primitives

any symbolism can safely stand in an external/extra/optional library

nomorelogic

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Donald Ziesig]

My two cents.

This has gotten completely out of hand.  When an item has multiple 
meanings (e.g., artistic, religious or offensive political history) we 
should give it the benefit of the doubt and LEAVE IT IN.


This is Lazarus (an international programming organization), not a 
totalitarian regime.  As was exemplified before, should we paint a Hindu 
who is printing a religious symbol with the same brush as a Neo-Nazi?  I 
say NO.  Most people who are technically competent enough to install and 
use Lazarus have the ability to draw anything they want anyway.


PLEASE, LET'S TERMINATE THIS THREAD, NOW!

Don Ziesig

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Mattias Gaertner]

On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 09:05:56 -0500
wkitt...@windstream.net wrote:

>[...]
> > There is a difference between forbidding a flag and promoting it.
> 
> having built-in procedures to paint flags and symbols is not promoting those 
> symbols and flags...

I'm glad that you agree that removing a helper function is not
"forbidding".
I'm not a native English speaker so maybe "promoting" is the wrong
word. Maybe a better word is support, boost, encourage or help on.
Although after this long mail thread the function is
pretty much promoted.

Mattias

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Anthony Walter]

> Napoleon conquered the world some 200 years ago. That is long enough as
nobody seems to have strong negative association with his actions

Follow this link if you want to see why WW2, and by extension the people
who created it and the symbols they used, is such a big deal:

http://www.fallen.io/ww2/

In short, WW2 resulted in more deaths than any event in human history
including the Black Death, the Napoleonic wars, the great Flu Pandemic of
1918, and Pol Pot anti intellectualism cleansing or chairman Mao's program
of cultural cleansing. I have five uncles, on both my mother's and father's
side, who fought and died in WW2. When I've visited their graves in France
and Hawaii everyone I met seemed to a good understanding of the war's cost
in human life on both sides, and also the new connotations symbols like the
Swastika had taken, for better or worse.

Even if you like the shape of the Nazi style Swastika, and have
appreciation of its history in Finland, most everyone in the developed
Western world now recognizes it as a symbol of Nazism, and by extension a
symbol of prejudicial racism and hate.
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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Roberto P.]

My 2 cents:

1) a program routine is just a program routine, like pencils or a
paintbrush; neither of them is symbol.
If you are not comfortable with that symbol (any symbol that can be
offensive to anyone), you just have not to paint it and not to call the
routine.
Think about the difference!
(Example to help: I know at least a way to commit a homicide, but I don't
call that routine of mine, therefore I am not guitly of homicide)

2) please, revert the change, just to remember to anyone what the project
is, what the free software is.

R#

2016-01-08 0:59 GMT+01:00 Žilvinas Ledas :

> On 2016-01-08 01:14, Anthony Walter wrote:
>
>>
>> http://www.fallen.io/ww2/
>>
>> In short, WW2 resulted in more deaths than any event in human history
>> including the Black Death, the Napoleonic wars, the great Flu Pandemic of
>> 1918, and Pol Pot anti intellectualism cleansing or chairman Mao's program
>> of cultural cleansing. I have five uncles, on both my mother's and father's
>> side, who fought and died in WW2. When I've visited their graves in France
>> and Hawaii everyone I met seemed to a good understanding of the war's cost
>> in human life on both sides, and also the new connotations symbols like the
>> Swastika had taken, for better or worse.
>>
>> I don't like to be nitpicking, but this is not entirely true. According
> to other sources (eg.
> http://waitbutwhy.com/2013/08/the-death-toll-comparison-breakdown.html)
> eg. Mongol Conquests and Mao Era was comparable to WW2 and The Black Death
> was undoubtedly much worse.
>
>
> Regards,
> Žilvinas
>
>
>
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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Žilvinas Ledas]

On 2016-01-08 01:14, Anthony Walter wrote:


http://www.fallen.io/ww2/

In short, WW2 resulted in more deaths than any event in human history 
including the Black Death, the Napoleonic wars, the great Flu Pandemic 
of 1918, and Pol Pot anti intellectualism cleansing or chairman Mao's 
program of cultural cleansing. I have five uncles, on both my mother's 
and father's side, who fought and died in WW2. When I've visited their 
graves in France and Hawaii everyone I met seemed to a good 
understanding of the war's cost in human life on both sides, and also 
the new connotations symbols like the Swastika had taken, for better 
or worse.


I don't like to be nitpicking, but this is not entirely true. According 
to other sources (eg. 
http://waitbutwhy.com/2013/08/the-death-toll-comparison-breakdown.html) 
eg. Mongol Conquests and Mao Era was comparable to WW2 and The Black 
Death was undoubtedly much worse.



Regards,
Žilvinas


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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[wkitty42]

On 01/07/2016 06:14 PM, Anthony Walter wrote:

Even if you like the shape of the Nazi style Swastika, and have appreciation
of its history in Finland, most everyone in the developed Western world now
recognizes it as a symbol of Nazism,


due to pure ignorance and lack of proper teaching of its true history... for 
someone to continue to further this ignorance is a travesty of the utmost...



and by extension a symbol of prejudicial racism and hate.


the next thing you know, the christian cross (aka latin cross aka crucifix) will 
be seen in the same light... does the name "westboro" ring a bell?? what do you 
do when religion is used to drive hatred and fear? contrary to the teachings of 
love and friendship... are we going to ban or remove the "star and crescent" 
because of what ISIS/Isil/IS/Daesh are doing?


i fully agree with juha's comments... this can of pandora's worms should have 
been left closed and buried just like her box...


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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Mattias Gaertner]

On Wed, 06 Jan 2016 17:32:46 +0100
Marc Santhoff  wrote:

>[...]
> > NB. The function was apparently introduced by Seppo (over 9 years ago)
> 
> Who's that? A Nazi, historan or hindu? A joker most probably.

Our Finnish translator since 12 years.

Mattias

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Marc Santhoff]

On Do, 2016-01-07 at 11:40 +0100, Mattias Gaertner wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Jan 2016 17:32:46 +0100
> Marc Santhoff  wrote:
> 
> >[...]
> > > NB. The function was apparently introduced by Seppo (over 9 years ago)
> > 
> > Who's that? A Nazi, historan or hindu? A joker most probably.
> 
> Our Finnish translator since 12 years.

Seems I was a bit excited there, asking for the reason for writing those
procedures in a very sarcastic manner. I didn't want to insult someone
personally. And we all learned that the swastika is a very common symbol
in Finnland.

So, Seppo, if you read that and read this: sorry for shooting in your
direction.

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Marc Santhoff]

On Do, 2016-01-07 at 23:27 +0200, Juha Manninen wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 10:44 PM, Dmitry Boyarintsev
>  wrote:
> > Swastika = Nazis, by default these days.
> 
> Ok, this must be a cultural difference then.

It is. I'm living in Germany, and the law forbids the use of Nazi
symbols. I don't know exactly, what it looks like, but there actually is
a clear definition how it looks like. Probably the circle around the
swastika and the color scheme play a role.

And the immediate identification of Swastika=Hakenkreuz happens. People
don't think long enough, but (re)act first...

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Marc Santhoff]

On Do, 2016-01-07 at 22:20 +0200, Juha Manninen wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 8:43 AM, Marc Santhoff  wrote:
> > Maybe this discussion can be closed when the names are mangled for
> > political correctness and/or there is a clear statement added in the
> > unit in question.
> 
> What is wrong with the names? The symbol is called "swastika".
>   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

To me, nothing. I'm all against deleting or changing something because a
few persons feel funny about it, often they only misunderstood the
meaning.

What I'd tried with the mail you're replying to was to find a mild
compromise making everyone happy.

> > May it be in the documentation or some comments, so
> > people understand the generic nature of those drawing procedures.
> 
> Why would people not understand the generic nature now?
> The procedures draw graphics without any political pamphlets or such.
> It is as generic as it can be.

People see something and are driven by feelings. I watched a case like
this already regarding FreeBSD. Some users insisted of changing the
deamon logo because they are afraif of the devil. Rather  ridiculous, it
actually was a cuddly toy or comic like figure, but in the end the logo
got changed. If they started thinking a short moment or actually go
inside a catholic church and look around they'd have seen much more
horrible pictures of devlish creatures all around. 

Disgusting, if you ask me. To me freedom is much more important than
superstition.

> You actually want to turn this project into a political one. Why?
> Now you want a "politically correct" statement that we are contra some
> ideology. The next step is add a statement that we are for some other
> ideology.
> Why?

Again: No.

Please read carefully again some emails of mine and you'll see. I'm all
against a politically forced change and fought against it. But this if
life, and life demands compromise to live together happily.

Maybe you answered to the wrong email?

> What means "political correctness" exactly? Does it mean that one must
> repeat the bad things done by Nazis well over 70 years ago, at the
> same time ignoring other bad things and genocides done after it?
> If so, I don't want to be politically correct.

Exactly that is the reason for my idea to change nothing but explain
what we discussed here in short words in a comment for those guys
anxious about symbols they misinterpret.

> I don't know what is going on here but guys hey, wake up!
> It is year 2016 already.
> There are many explosive spots around the world. Many dangerous
> ideologies, groups and governments, but none of them are Nazis. Nazis
> are part of history. Maybe it is time to move to this century now.

Now you are taking the political banner an wave it around. ;)

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Juha Manninen]

On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 8:43 AM, Marc Santhoff  wrote:
> Maybe this discussion can be closed when the names are mangled for
> political correctness and/or there is a clear statement added in the
> unit in question.

What is wrong with the names? The symbol is called "swastika".
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

> May it be in the documentation or some comments, so
> people understand the generic nature of those drawing procedures.

Why would people not understand the generic nature now?
The procedures draw graphics without any political pamphlets or such.
It is as generic as it can be.

You actually want to turn this project into a political one. Why?
Now you want a "politically correct" statement that we are contra some
ideology. The next step is add a statement that we are for some other
ideology.
Why?

What means "political correctness" exactly? Does it mean that one must
repeat the bad things done by Nazis well over 70 years ago, at the
same time ignoring other bad things and genocides done after it?
If so, I don't want to be politically correct.

I don't know what is going on here but guys hey, wake up!
It is year 2016 already.
There are many explosive spots around the world. Many dangerous
ideologies, groups and governments, but none of them are Nazis. Nazis
are part of history. Maybe it is time to move to this century now.

Juha

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Dmitry Boyarintsev]

On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 3:20 PM, Juha Manninen 
wrote:
>
> What means "political correctness" exactly?
>

It's use of language. Use the words that would not provoke, insult of make
feel bad anyone.

I doubt the thread would ever come up, if the function were named
PaintCrookedCross as Ondrej pointed.
Anthony was going through the documentation and the word "Swastika"
clicked. Swastika = Nazis, by default these days.
(Even though is still used for example by Finnish defense forces)

In the end Mattias applied a reasonable technical solution to the political
(yes, it is) problem.

thanks,
Dmitry
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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Juha Manninen]

On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Terry A. Haimann  wrote:
> As someone of Jewish heritage I say get rid of it.

Mattias actually removed the function, obeying like a good German boy
when somebody with "Jewish heritage" tells him. Uhhh, I can't believe
he did so!

I planned to write "let's stop this nonsense before this project is
pulled into politics", but now it is too late.
Removing an ancient graph which is part of human heritage only for
political reasons has a strong symbolic meaning.
This project had no political or religious connections before this
thread, at least that I knew of.
The symbols drawn by the lib were not presented in any political
context. Nobody saw a problem during the years.
Anthony, I am surprised by your attitude and lack of perspective. Your
thread practically turned this project into politics. Damn!

Swastika is used in far East in Hinduism, Jainism, Buddism and others.
It is not only history, it is used currently today.
Its meanings are prosperity, security, glory, "good luck", "God's energy" etc.
Anybody from India reading this? This mail thread must appear rather
weird. Many Indian people don't know what Judaism or Nazism are
exactly, or at least don't have strong emotions about them.

More perspective: I would welcome a PaintHammerAndSickle procedure to
the lib from Dmitry, although it carries negative association in my
country and in other ex-Soviet neighbours, and for a reason.
Still, it is just a graph. The purpose of this project is not to judge
any graph symbol. They happen to exist for whatever reason.

Historical fact is that Stalin's governance killed MORE people than
Hitler's. He was MORE evil by any measurement.
He just killed a minority after another without any plan by pure evilness.
If you read what happened in countries occupied by Soviet Union, it
matches the Holocaust. However those people could not complain to
anybody, the propaganda made them look guilty instead.
Why was Stalin not convicted as a war criminal and hung? Well, because
he happened to win the war!
The history is always written by winners. I think it was politically
incorrect to write critically about him now.
However it is politically correct to criticise Nazis. When somebody
with "Jewish heritage" tells to remove an ancient symbol only because
Nazis happened to use it some 75 years ago, everybody must obey and
nod their heads in acceptance.
Uhhh, this sucks badly!

What about USA? They have attacked countries around the world during
decades, sometimes secretly, sometimes openly, killing people only
because they didn't happen to like the government. That is evil, too.
Should we ban all symbols associated with USA?

No, censoring graph symbols would be a never-ending swamp. This is an
international project but the world is unjust.
Always there is some group who is treated bad by some other group and
want to ban their symbols.
This project must be outside of politics! If there is a graph library,
it must be allowed to draw any important symbol.
Actually that is the best way to advance world peace. When symbols are
side by side, it dilutes their associations in people's minds and
makes them more neutral.

This library is for simple graphs which can be easily drawn
programmatically which is true for most old well-known symbols.
The Star of David qualifies for sure, as do most other religious
symbols. Some people may be offended by Star of David, namely
Palestinians who are treated very badly by Jewish people.
BTW, why is that? It looks like Jewish people learned only the
violence from their WW2 experiences.
Yes, I feel justified to ask this because you wanted to affect our
project for political reasons.

Anyway, I have a plan:
Seppo has made routines to draw many other graphs, including hundreds
of national flags. They don't belong to LCL but could be added as a
package with a demo application.
The procedures from ExtGraphics should be moved there as well. Then
more old well-known symbols can be added there, too.
The package will contain swastika, too. If somebody is not happy with
it, he must find a "politically correct" project then.

This project must not be "politically correct", it must remain
"politically neutral".

Juha

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Anthony Walter]

> Napoleon conquered the world some 200 years ago. That is long enough as
nobody seems to have strong negative association with his actions

Napoleon didn't try to exterminate a race of people by cooking 6 million of
them in factory ovens 24/7.

Europe has long  a history of anti semitism, something which most
reasonable people recognize. Perhaps this is the cultural difference you're
touching upon.
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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Juha Manninen]

On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 10:44 PM, Dmitry Boyarintsev
 wrote:
> Swastika = Nazis, by default these days.

Ok, this must be a cultural difference then. I have talked and read
about this symbol in context of historical use and current use in
India, and the word "swastika" had no such negative meaning then.
So big differences inside Europe.
Now I read its usage is completely banned in Germany and in other
middle European countries.
Uhhh, such a pity. I hope it will change soon. The symbol is so basic
and easy to draw and "obvious" that it surely is used for very long
time. Oldest reported uses are from 1 years ago but very likely it
is older.

Unfortunately popular symbols get negative associations sometimes. How
long it takes to get rid of them?
Now 75 years apparently is not enough. How about 100 years?
Napoleon conquered the world some 200 years ago. That is long enough
as nobody seems to have strong negative association with his actions
although he was quite a butcher, too.

Is there any way to speed up the process? This important symbol will
be tainted and wasted, I must always think what is the "polically
correct" way to deal with it. This sucks ...

Juha

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Juha Manninen]

On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 11:39 PM, Anthony Walter  wrote:
> Europe has long  a history of anti semitism, something which most reasonable
> people recognize. Perhaps this is the cultural difference you're touching
> upon.

Ok, maybe the sentiments around those issues are still so strong that
it is hard for me understand. Antisemitism has not been a problem
here, we had other problems instead.
It means the symbol will be tainted for some time to come, probably as
long as I live, and I must adjust myself to that. :(

It is said that globalization removes cultural differences.
Fortunately not completely, in India they paint swastikas on clothes
and cars as a sign of blessing, road safety and good luck, and they
don't know of the negative meanings of that symbol.

Juha

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Dmitry Boyarintsev]

On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 9:54 AM, Marc Santhoff  wrote:

> One could demand to remove any religious reference, then the name would
> have to be changed.
>
IIRC even "Lazarus" name was discussed at some point as having religious
reference.
Which is kind-of is... but to avoid another Phoenix bird named project.

thanks,
Dmitry
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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Dmitry Boyarintsev]

On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 10:31 AM, Bart  wrote:

>
> So, yes, IMVPAPO, it should be removed.
>
>
Swastika glyph is in Unicode standard. That actually an excuses for having
the function available.
(i.e. if a font doesn't support swastika, it could be drawn manually).

thanks,
Dmitry
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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Vojtěch Čihák]

Hi,
 
I just tested and PaintSwastika always paints clockwise swastika (both 
religious and nazi symbol).
I vote for keeping procedure but there should be added boolean parameter + 
patch for painting anti-clockwise swastika (which is religious symbol only).
 
Blaazen
__

Od: Marc Santhoff <m.santh...@web.de>
Komu: <lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org>
Datum: 06.01.2016 15:54
Předmět: Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?


On Mi, 2016-01-06 at 00:51 -0500, Anthony Walter wrote:

While browsing the docs I found:

http://docs.getlazarus.org/#lcl+extgraphics+paintswastika 
<http://docs.getlazarus.org/#lcl+extgraphics+paintswastika>



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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Marc Santhoff]

On Mi, 2016-01-06 at 00:51 -0500, Anthony Walter wrote:
> While browsing the docs I found:
> 
> http://docs.getlazarus.org/#lcl+extgraphics+paintswastika

Btw., I only see a header and an empty page ...

> Do we really need this procedure in the lcl? I think it should probably be
> removed.

Additionally to Micheals answer:

Please don't be foolish. Would you want to dispel any star symbol
because the soviet union, satanists and northern korea use(d) a red
star?  This would put the question on "PaintCross" and some more.

One could demand to remove any religious reference, then the name would
have to be changed. Or to filter out any bad words when printing text,
censorship that is.

Please, be tolerant. You're free not to use those procedures or delete
them in your copy.

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Bart]

On 1/6/16, Marc Santhoff  wrote:

>> Do we really need this procedure in the lcl? I think it should probably
>> be
>> removed.
>
> Additionally to Micheals answer:
>
> Please don't be foolish. Would you want to dispel any star symbol
> because the soviet union, satanists and northern korea use(d) a red
> star?  This would put the question on "PaintCross" and some more.
>
> One could demand to remove any religious reference, then the name would
> have to be changed. Or to filter out any bad words when printing text,
> censorship that is.

While I agree a similar argument can be made for anything that offends
people there are some differences here.

First f all. Taking offence against a  cross (because of religious
beleives) is not of the same order as taking offence against the
symbol of the Nazi's.
While I am willing to defend each and everyone's freedom of speech,
IMO this does not imply that we (the Lazarus community) should
actively support speading such logo's.
(Nor should we e.g. support bashing of any religion/race etc in our
sourcecode or comments.)

As for the "its an ancient rune" argument: the same thing can be said
for several phrases that now are considered to be offending to e.g.
ethnic groups, and we do not promote these her as well.
Current state is that the Swastika now has very strong associations
witj the Nazi regime and all the evil it stood for.

So, yes, IMVPAPO, it should be removed.

NB. The function was apparently introduced by Seppo (over 9 years ago)

Bart

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Anthony Walter]

There are many versions of the religious swastika symbol, but is only one
version of the swastika is draw with the squared capped leaves and a stroke
width exactly equal to 1/5th of the linear diameter. Guess which one the
lcl function draws?

http://cache.getlazarus.org/images/nazi_symbol.png

And I've looked at the unicode characters. They don't draw the Nazi
swastika, the stroke width and end caps aren't the same, but our lcl
version precisely matches the Nazi version.
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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Mark Morgan Lloyd]

Juha Manninen wrote:


From Bart:
Current state is that the Swastika now has very strong
associations witj the Nazi regime and all the evil it stood for.


Then it is time to change that association.
Maybe it is a cultural thing but here most people understand the big
picture and don't judge the symbol itself.
Maybe you and Anthony don't know the history of that symbol? Please study it!
To me your opinions seem very narrow-minded, sorry to say.


I'm inclined to agree, particularly since the variant that has such 
unpleasant connotations was usually drawn at a 45 deg angle while almost 
all other renditions are square (i.e. all elements are either horizontal 
or vertical).


There's a general principle that numbers can't be copyrighted or 
patented, and that extends to various "illegal numbers" which some trade 
bodies and even a few jurisdictions insist can't be published and 
shouldn't even be read outside certain narrows contexts. I think this 
principle should also extend to simple geometric shapes.


So come on chaps. It's not as though we're talking about something 
completely unambiguous like the Waiblingen triple-headed eagle or even 
the Penrose Chickens :-)


--
Mark Morgan Lloyd
markMLl .AT. telemetry.co .DOT. uk

[Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or colleagues]

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Marc Santhoff]

On Mi, 2016-01-06 at 13:07 -0500, Dmitry Boyarintsev wrote:

> ExtGraphics doesn't really have any other religions/cultural symbols there.

Hooray! Let's sing!

"Ding-Dong! The Witch Is Dead"



How about that:

procedure TForm1.PaintBox1Paint(Sender: TObject);
var
  r: TRect;
begin
  r.Top := 0;
  r.Left := 0;
  r.Bottom := 200;
  r.Right := 200;
  PaintFivePointLineStar(PaintBox1.Canvas, r);
end;

Got some silver knifes and black candles at hand?


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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Juha Manninen]

On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 6:42 PM, Dmitry Boyarintsev
 wrote:
> Fair enough.
> Here's the patch. (Anyone,) please create a bug report, so it could be
> applied.

Dmitry, you have full SVN write access, don't you? You can commit it
without any bug reports.
There could be more variations. Swastika has been drawn standing on
its side, clockwise and counter-clockwise, and standing on its corner.

It has a very long and rich history. It is a nice looking symbol and
for that reason has been so popular during the millenniums.
It is used in Russian Orthodox religion and many other religions
especially in Asia. It has been used in Finnish traditions and art
always. It was a symbol of many military air-forces including Finnish
air-force from its beginning.
And so on ...

>From Bart:
> Current state is that the Swastika now has very strong
> associations witj the Nazi regime and all the evil it stood for.

Then it is time to change that association.
Maybe it is a cultural thing but here most people understand the big
picture and don't judge the symbol itself.
Maybe you and Anthony don't know the history of that symbol? Please study it!
To me your opinions seem very narrow-minded, sorry to say.

Juha

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Dmitry Boyarintsev]

On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 12:42 PM, Juha Manninen 
wrote:

> Dmitry, you have full SVN write access, don't you? You can commit it
> without any bug reports.
> There could be more variations. Swastika has been drawn standing on
> its side, clockwise and counter-clockwise, and standing on its corner.
>

I was actually awaiting for someone's else approval to commit :) (r51215)
As for "corner standing" there's already RadAngle parameter.

It has a very long and rich history. ...
> And so on ...
>

Imho, the reason the procedure is there it's because it's quite easy to be
drawn.
(Specifically using Polygon method).
ExtGraphics doesn't really have any other religions/cultural symbols there.

thanks,
Dmitry
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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2016-01-06 05:51, Anthony Walter wrote:
> Do we really need this procedure in the lcl?


This discussion is ridiculous! With thinking like that even the project
name "Lazarus" can't be used. Get real people!


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Symbol_in_various_scripts

When I look at that, I see a "running stick figure", or a Ninja throwing
star - I see no problem with either of those. ;-)  I guess it boils down
to what mentality you have.


Regards,
  - Graeme -


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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Bart]

On 1/6/16, Dmitry Boyarintsev  wrote:

> Swastika glyph is in Unicode standard.

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Symbol_in_various_scripts

Bart

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Marc Santhoff]

On Mi, 2016-01-06 at 16:31 +0100, Bart wrote: 

Look there:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

> While I am willing to defend each and everyone's freedom of speech,
> IMO this does not imply that we (the Lazarus community) should
> actively support speading such logo's.
> (Nor should we e.g. support bashing of any religion/race etc in our
> sourcecode or comments.)
> 
> As for the "its an ancient rune" argument: the same thing can be said
> for several phrases that now are considered to be offending to e.g.
> ethnic groups, and we do not promote these her as well.

Well what about "PaintCross", "PaintFivePointStar",
"PaintFivePointLineStar", "PaintChevron"? 

All in the same unit ... has anyone ever used that procedures, what do
the results actually look like?

> Current state is that the Swastika now has very strong associations
> witj the Nazi regime and all the evil it stood for.
> 
> So, yes, IMVPAPO, it should be removed.

I'd be with you and support that idea if any star symbol having a
satanistic or stalinistic look would be removed, too.

Go ahead, burn the witch, what's next?

> NB. The function was apparently introduced by Seppo (over 9 years ago)

Who's that? A Nazi, historan or hindu? A joker most probably.

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Michael Van Canneyt]

On Wed, 6 Jan 2016, Vojtěch Čihák wrote:


Hi,
 
I just tested and PaintSwastika always paints clockwise swastika 
(both religious and nazi symbol).
I vote for keeping procedure but there should be added boolean parameter + 
patch for painting anti-clockwise swastika (which is religious symbol only).


I think both rotations are OK for the religious symbol:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika


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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Dmitry Boyarintsev]

On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 11:20 AM, Vojtěch Čihák 
wrote:

> I vote for keeping procedure but there should be added boolean parameter +
> patch for painting anti-clockwise swastika (which is religious symbol
> only).
>

Fair enough.
Here's the patch. (Anyone,) please create a bug report, so it could be
applied.

thanks,
Dmitry


Index: extgraphics.pas
===
--- extgraphics.pas(revision 51191)
+++ extgraphics.pas(working copy)
@@ -56,7 +56,7 @@
 procedure PaintRightTriangle(Canvas: TCanvas; const PaintRect: TRect;
   RadAngle :Extended=0.0);
 procedure PaintSwastika(Canvas: TCanvas; const PaintRect: TRect;
-  RadAngle :Extended=0.0);
+  RadAngle :Extended=0.0; ClockWise: Boolean = true);
 procedure PaintTriangle(Canvas: TCanvas; const PaintRect: TRect;
   RadAngle :Extended=0.0);
 procedure PaintTriangular(Canvas: TCanvas; const PaintRect: TRect;
@@ -583,8 +583,10 @@
 end;


-procedure InitSwastika(var P:array of TPoint;const R: TRect;var
NumPts:Integer);
+procedure InitSwastika(var P:array of TPoint;const R: TRect;var
NumPts:Integer; CW: Boolean = true);
 var x1,x2,y1,y2:Integer;
+  t: TPoint;
+  i: integer;
 begin
   x1:=(R.Right-R.Left) div 5;
   y1:=(R.Bottom-R.Top) div 5;
@@ -601,8 +603,21 @@

P[16].x:=P[15].x;P[16].y:=R.Bottom-y1;P[17].x:=R.Left+x2;P[17].y:=P[16].y;
   P[18].x:=P[17].x;P[18].y:=R.Bottom-y2;P[19].x:=R.Left;P[19].y:=P[18].y;
   NumPts:=20;
+  if not CW then
+for i:=0 to NumPts -1 do
+  p[i].x:=R.Right - (p[i].x - R.left);
 end;

+procedure InitSwastikaCW(var P:array of TPoint;const R: TRect;var
NumPts:Integer);
+begin
+  InitSwastika(P, R, NumPts, true);
+end;
+
+procedure InitSwastikaCCW(var P:array of TPoint;const R: TRect;var
NumPts:Integer);
+begin
+  InitSwastika(P, R, NumPts, false);
+end;
+
 procedure InitTriangle(var P:array of TPoint; const R: TRect;
   var NumPts:Integer);
 begin
@@ -719,9 +734,12 @@
   InitPolygon(Canvas,PaintRect,RadAngle,@InitRightTriangle);
 end;

-procedure PaintSwastika(Canvas: TCanvas; const PaintRect: TRect;RadAngle
:Extended=0.0);
+procedure PaintSwastika(Canvas: TCanvas; const PaintRect: TRect;RadAngle
:Extended=0.0; ClockWise: Boolean = true);
 begin
-  InitPolygon(Canvas,PaintRect,RadAngle,@InitSwastika);
+  if ClockWise then
+InitPolygon(Canvas,PaintRect,RadAngle,@InitSwastikaCW)
+  else
+InitPolygon(Canvas,PaintRect,RadAngle,@InitSwastikaCCW);
 end;

 procedure PaintTriangle(Canvas: TCanvas; const PaintRect: TRect;RadAngle
:Extended=0.0);
Index: extgraphics.pas
===
--- extgraphics.pas (revision 51191)
+++ extgraphics.pas (working copy)
@@ -56,7 +56,7 @@
 procedure PaintRightTriangle(Canvas: TCanvas; const PaintRect: TRect;
   RadAngle :Extended=0.0);
 procedure PaintSwastika(Canvas: TCanvas; const PaintRect: TRect;
-  RadAngle :Extended=0.0);
+  RadAngle :Extended=0.0; ClockWise: Boolean = true);
 procedure PaintTriangle(Canvas: TCanvas; const PaintRect: TRect;
   RadAngle :Extended=0.0);
 procedure PaintTriangular(Canvas: TCanvas; const PaintRect: TRect;
@@ -583,8 +583,10 @@
 end;
 
 
-procedure InitSwastika(var P:array of TPoint;const R: TRect;var 
NumPts:Integer);
+procedure InitSwastika(var P:array of TPoint;const R: TRect;var 
NumPts:Integer; CW: Boolean = true);
 var x1,x2,y1,y2:Integer;
+  t: TPoint;
+  i: integer;
 begin
   x1:=(R.Right-R.Left) div 5;
   y1:=(R.Bottom-R.Top) div 5;
@@ -601,8 +603,21 @@
   P[16].x:=P[15].x;P[16].y:=R.Bottom-y1;P[17].x:=R.Left+x2;P[17].y:=P[16].y;
   P[18].x:=P[17].x;P[18].y:=R.Bottom-y2;P[19].x:=R.Left;P[19].y:=P[18].y;
   NumPts:=20;
+  if not CW then
+for i:=0 to NumPts -1 do
+  p[i].x:=R.Right - (p[i].x - R.left);
 end;
 
+procedure InitSwastikaCW(var P:array of TPoint;const R: TRect;var 
NumPts:Integer);
+begin
+  InitSwastika(P, R, NumPts, true);
+end;
+
+procedure InitSwastikaCCW(var P:array of TPoint;const R: TRect;var 
NumPts:Integer);
+begin
+  InitSwastika(P, R, NumPts, false);
+end;
+
 procedure InitTriangle(var P:array of TPoint; const R: TRect;
   var NumPts:Integer);
 begin
@@ -719,9 +734,12 @@
   InitPolygon(Canvas,PaintRect,RadAngle,@InitRightTriangle);
 end;
 
-procedure PaintSwastika(Canvas: TCanvas; const PaintRect: TRect;RadAngle 
:Extended=0.0);
+procedure PaintSwastika(Canvas: TCanvas; const PaintRect: TRect;RadAngle 
:Extended=0.0; ClockWise: Boolean = true);
 begin
-  InitPolygon(Canvas,PaintRect,RadAngle,@InitSwastika);
+  if ClockWise then
+InitPolygon(Canvas,PaintRect,RadAngle,@InitSwastikaCW)
+  else
+InitPolygon(Canvas,PaintRect,RadAngle,@InitSwastikaCCW);
 end;
 
 procedure PaintTriangle(Canvas: TCanvas; const PaintRect: TRect;RadAngle 
:Extended=0.0);
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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Sven Barth]

Am 06.01.2016 20:44 schrieb "Marc Santhoff" :
> Got some silver knifes and black candles at hand?

Ehm... You do know that the one with the tip at the top is *not* a satanic
symbol? It's a protective symbol instead. The satanic one is the one
standing on its tip. I should know, because I like to wear the protective
variant ;)

Regards,
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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Sven Barth]

Am 06.01.2016 21:25 schrieb "Graeme Geldenhuys" <
mailingli...@geldenhuys.co.uk>:
>
> On 2016-01-06 19:21, Anthony Walter wrote:
> > but our lcl
> > version precisely matches the Nazi version.
>
> No it doesn't - if you want to get technical. The star isn't drawn
> inside a circle (as your screenshot clearly shows). It also isn't drawn
> on a red background by default.

The "Hakenkreuz" wasn't black on white surrounded by red everywhere.
Especially on sculptures (think eagle of the Reich) it was more often than
not simply the base material with the "white" being air.

Anyway, I agree that PaintSwastika doesn't necessarily have to do with the
Nazis...

Regards,
Sven
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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Marc Santhoff]

On Do, 2016-01-07 at 00:02 +0100, Sven Barth wrote:
> Am 06.01.2016 20:44 schrieb "Marc Santhoff" :
> > Got some silver knifes and black candles at hand?
> 
> Ehm... You do know that the one with the tip at the top is *not* a satanic
> symbol? It's a protective symbol instead. The satanic one is the one
> standing on its tip. I should know, because I like to wear the protective
> variant ;)

Ok, I've learned sth. today. But this thread is about what (anxious)
people see. Anthony sse a Hakenkreuz. I have seen a satanic symbol - for
other reasons. ;)

Maybe this discussion can be closed when the names are mangled for
political correctness and/or there is a clear statement added in the
unit in question. May it be in the documentation or some comments, so
people understand the generic nature of those drawing procedures.

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Dmitry Boyarintsev]

On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 2:45 PM, Marc Santhoff  wrote:

>
> How about that:
>
>   PaintFivePointLineStar(PaintBox1.Canvas, r);
>
> Got some silver knifes and black candles at hand?
>

That's the point :) It's FivePointLineStart, not Pentagram. (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagram)
It might look the same, but in the end it's FivePointLineStart.

thanks,
Dmitry
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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Dmitry Boyarintsev]

On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 2:21 PM, Anthony Walter  wrote:

> There are many versions of the religious swastika symbol, but is only one
> version of the swastika is draw with the squared capped leaves and a stroke
> width exactly equal to 1/5th of the linear diameter. Guess which one the
> lcl function draws?
>

r51217 introduced LineWidth parameter (which should probably be renamed to
LeafWidth) that allows to specify a different than default 1/5th diameter.

That also brings the memory of my childhood. Unfortunately I was about 2-3
years old that the event the occurred, so I could not be a witness myself,
but...
But a couple of older kids (4-6 years) were left at home for a short period
of time (less than an hour or so). However, after a few minutes of playing,
they got really scared that the nazis might come in. Being terrified of
being captured they took all black markers, pens and pencils they could
find at home and started drawing swastikas all over the house. (I cannot
confirm if they were the right 1/5th proportion). But in a few minutes all
walls in were covered in swastikas.

Despite their hopes and worries, instead of Nazis, parents appeared! They
were really mad about what has happened and caused kids to do some labor
and cleaning up the mess.

thanks,
Dmitry
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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Dmitry Boyarintsev]

On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Marc Santhoff  wrote:

> I see. But from that view: the Nazi symbol is named "Hakenkreuz", not
> "Swastika". If you argue like this, you can revert the patch. ;)
>
> Indeed! PaintSwastika draws a religious rune, not a Nazi symbol!

thanks,
Dmitry
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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2016-01-06 19:21, Anthony Walter wrote:
>  Guess which one the
> lcl function draws?

It still looks like a Ninja throwing star to me. ;-)

Regards,
  - Graeme -


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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Ondrej Pokorny]

On 06.01.2016 21:09, Dmitry Boyarintsev wrote:

Indeed! PaintSwastika draws a religious rune, not a Nazi symbol!


Indeed! Therefore PaintSwastika should be renamed to "PaintCrookedCross" 
to comply with "PaintFivePointLineStar".


It doesn't make sense to have Swastika and then omit Pentagram. Lazarus 
sources should be uniform.


Ondrej

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2016-01-06 19:21, Anthony Walter wrote:
> but our lcl
> version precisely matches the Nazi version.

No it doesn't - if you want to get technical. The star isn't drawn
inside a circle (as your screenshot clearly shows). It also isn't drawn
on a red background by default.

Dude, you are reading way to much into this. Simply delete it from your
copy of Lazarus and be happy.


Regards,
  - Graeme -


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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Marc Santhoff]

On Mi, 2016-01-06 at 14:50 -0500, Dmitry Boyarintsev wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 2:45 PM, Marc Santhoff  wrote:
> 
> >
> > How about that:
> >
> >   PaintFivePointLineStar(PaintBox1.Canvas, r);
> >
> > Got some silver knifes and black candles at hand?
> >
> 
> That's the point :) It's FivePointLineStart, not Pentagram. (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagram)
> It might look the same, but in the end it's FivePointLineStart.



I see. But from that view: the Nazi symbol is named "Hakenkreuz", not
"Swastika". If you argue like this, you can revert the patch. ;)

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 2016-01-06 19:45, Marc Santhoff wrote:
> Got some silver knifes and black candles at hand?

No, you got to rotate it by about 15 to 20 degrees first. ;-)

Regards,
  - Graeme -


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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Dmitry Boyarintsev]

On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 3:23 PM, Ondrej Pokorny  wrote:

> Indeed! Therefore PaintSwastika should be renamed to "PaintCrookedCross"
> to comply with "PaintFivePointLineStar".
>
> It doesn't make sense to have Swastika and then omit Pentagram. Lazarus
> sources should be uniform.
>

Any objection if I add PaintHammerAndSickle procedure too?

thanks,
Dmitry
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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Anthony Walter]

Regarding a patch, can whomever creates/applies it insure the PaintSwastika
procedure does not default to the Nazi symbol characteristics?

That is don't default the leaf widths to 1/5th the linear width (The Nazi
version is the only swastika with those proportions. Please don't default
to the Nazi proportions). Also most religious versions either use counter
clockwise leaves or rounded end caps. I'd go with defaulting the leaf
direction to counter clockwise as almost all versions other than the Nazi
one default to that direction.
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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[wkitty42]

On 01/06/2016 03:23 PM, Ondrej Pokorny wrote:

On 06.01.2016 21:09, Dmitry Boyarintsev wrote:

Indeed! PaintSwastika draws a religious rune, not a Nazi symbol!


Indeed! Therefore PaintSwastika should be renamed to "PaintCrookedCross" to
comply with "PaintFivePointLineStar".

It doesn't make sense to have Swastika and then omit Pentagram. Lazarus sources
should be uniform.


so how about adding PaintCrookedCross and PaintPentagram? 

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Dmitry Boyarintsev]

On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 3:29 PM, Anthony Walter  wrote:

> Regarding a patch, can whomever creates/applies it insure the
> PaintSwastika procedure does not default to the Nazi symbol characteristics?
>
It's easy, just changing  LineWidth: Single = 0.20 to whatever
But how about backwards compatibility?
I doubt anyone is using the function, but introducing an incompatibility
requires at least documenting it.
As you know there're far more important notes to be done for the coming
Lazarus release.

Besides, Nazi's swastika should be turned by 45 degrees. The procedure is
using 0 degrees by default.
As Graeme pointed out colors don't match either.

In the end. It's not about a routine. It's about how an end user
(developer) apply it.
Maybe they're developing the very next version of Wolfenstain 3d game or
creating a historic application or whatever.
Library is a tool, it's not intended to be a cultural symbol of any kind.

thanks,
Dmitry
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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Ondrej Pokorny]

On 06.01.2016 21:29, Dmitry Boyarintsev wrote:

Any objection if I add PaintHammerAndSickle procedure too?


On the contrary, please do so! I also suggest to wait with 1.6 RC2 so 
that it could be merged.


Ondrej

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Ondrej Pokorny]

On 06.01.2016 21:40, Dmitry Boyarintsev wrote:
In the end. It's not about a routine. It's about how an end user 
(developer) apply it.
Maybe they're developing the very next version of Wolfenstain 3d game 
or creating a historic application or whatever.

Library is a tool, it's not intended to be a cultural symbol of any kind.



Yes!

What about forbidding knives just because you can kill with them? I 
still use them every morning for cutting my bread...


Ondrej

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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Ondrej Pokorny]

On 06.01.2016 21:48, Ondrej Pokorny wrote:

On 06.01.2016 21:29, Dmitry Boyarintsev wrote:

Any objection if I add PaintHammerAndSickle procedure too?


On the contrary, please do so! I also suggest to wait with 1.6 RC2 so 
that it could be merged.




For the sake of completeness we also shouldn't forget about 
PaintTwelveFivePointLineStarsInACircle. This can easily be added by 
taking advantage of the PaintFivePointLineStar procedure.


+ The best thing is that you can combine these symbols!

Ondrej

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[Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Anthony Walter]

While browsing the docs I found:

http://docs.getlazarus.org/#lcl+extgraphics+paintswastika

Do we really need this procedure in the lcl? I think it should probably be
removed. If anyone wants to see the details of when it was committed to
svn, the inserted revision number is 9692.
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Re: [Lazarus] Do we really need a PaintSwastika procedure?

[Michael Van Canneyt]

On Wed, 6 Jan 2016, Anthony Walter wrote:


While browsing the docs I found:

http://docs.getlazarus.org/#lcl+extgraphics+paintswastika

Do we really need this procedure in the lcl? I think it should probably be
removed. If anyone wants to see the details of when it was committed to
svn, the inserted revision number is 9692.


Besides more recent not so nice connotations, the swastika is an ancient symbol
for the sun and auspiciousness from asia (India, I believe). 
I believe the rays are rotated though, compared to the German version.


So maybe first check it, prior to jumping to conclusions.

Michael.

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