[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] "NO-BREAK SPACE" (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

dolez...@cvut.cz changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Assignee|libreoffice-b...@lists.free |dolez...@cvut.cz
   |desktop.org |
 Status|NEW |ASSIGNED

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] "NO-BREAK SPACE" (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

--- Comment #39 from dolez...@cvut.cz ---
This is way overdue for fixing. Currently most reasonable solution seems to be:
add a flag to specify new NBSP behaviour is to be used, and for documents that
have it interpret NBSP as a variable-width NBSP.

If someone still needs fixed length NBSP for some reason, it can be achieved
using fixed width space (EnSpace, EmSpace, etc.) surrounded by two zero width
unbreakable characters, such as Word Joiner (U+2060) (can be inserted by
clicking Insert > Formatting mark > Zero width space, unbreakable)

Sounds good to everyone?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] "NO-BREAK SPACE" (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

--- Comment #38 from Ultimate Apparels  ---
It's not only with technical text or numbers where non-breaking spaces are
useful. 

https://bit.ly/3lsU5Vz

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] "NO-BREAK SPACE" (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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--- Comment #37 from Maciej Kotliński  ---
Everybody understand that the compatibility should be preserved. Unfortunately
most of texts in Polish, Czech and probably some other languages looks ugly...
very ugly. I know that other word processors format these texts in similar ugly
way. Could LiberOffice be better then others?

Nobodylike to readsuch   a justified  text.

It would be niece to have an option allowing for setting variable width of
nonbreakable space in paragraph format settings. The user could decide.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] "NO-BREAK SPACE" (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

gawkla  changed:

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 CC||gaw...@gmail.com

--- Comment #36 from gawkla  ---
my vote for this bug!

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] "NO-BREAK SPACE" (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

Mike Kaganski  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13
   ||7738

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] "NO-BREAK SPACE" (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

Leroy  changed:

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   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13
   ||5451

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] "NO-BREAK SPACE" (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||129434


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=129434
[Bug 129434] [META] Writer (EDITING) Suggested bug fixes, enhancements and
features for authors.
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] "NO-BREAK SPACE" (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks|129434  |


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=129434
[Bug 129434] [META] Writer (EDITING) Suggested bug fixes, enhancements and
features for authors.
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] "NO-BREAK SPACE" (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

László Németh  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||129434
 CC||nem...@numbertext.org


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=129434
[Bug 129434] [META] Writer (EDITING) Suggested bug fixes, enhancements and
features for authors.
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] "NO-BREAK SPACE" (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

--- Comment #35 from Shriramana Sharma  ---
I would be happy with a per-document option for how to treat NBSP-s, but the
default behaviour for new documents should be configured where?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] "NO-BREAK SPACE" (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

--- Comment #34 from Mike Kaganski  ---
(In reply to dohnp5a1 from comment #33)
> At first introduce incompatibility by breaking unknown number of millions of 
> existing documents of our users, to allow *some other* users to do what they 
> need; and only then start thinking about doing it properly

No, it doesn't work that way. While Unicode is an important standard, it's only
of secondary importance to an office suite. Its primary goal is *not* creating
a reference comformant implementation of the standard; rather, it should use
the standard to the extent it needs to serve its users most. And if legacy
requires that some statements of standard be violated to keep existing
documents intact, that should be that way, until a better design is invented
and implemented, which would make possible to please both sides.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] "NO-BREAK SPACE" (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

--- Comment #33 from dohnp...@gmail.com ---
At first set the default behaviour of LO strictly according the Unicode
definitions – it is about time after 8 years (!). As a supplement later there
could be some extension with more features added.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] "NO-BREAK SPACE" (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

--- Comment #32 from Mike Kaganski  ---
Unicode has that "non-breaking" property only set to some of its different
spaces. But in reality, different typographic rules of countries/bodies/times,
as noted, may require full repertoire of spaces of different width and
properties (fixed/widening/shortening) to be breaking *and* non-breaking
variants. ODF could introduce a special internal "non-breaking" character
property applicable to any space character, which would override normal Unicode
algorithm; that would allow for adding shortcuts for such combos. Without that,
any "fix" like the one asked here by many would only fix things for vocal
minority, and break things for most users who naturally don't participate in
discussion here, because - well, it just works for them, and they don't look
for this bug ;-)

Note that what I propose would require an ODF extension.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] "NO-BREAK SPACE" (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

Julien Nabet  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12
   ||7961

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] "NO-BREAK SPACE" (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

--- Comment #31 from rysson  ---
Yes, yes, yes!
This bug was reported in 2010. Please, I think it's time to fix it. I know I
still can use LaTeX or pure HTML to write documents. But using LibreOffice for
text documents will be very nice IMO.

Now I can break typografy (in Polish, and many another languages) or see awful
text like:

This is justified text with a0 space – terrible.

Should look:

Thisisjustifiedtextwitha0space–terrible?


BTW. Happy New Year!

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] "NO-BREAK SPACE" (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

--- Comment #30 from Shriramana Sharma  ---
The Unicode standard document http://unicode.org/reports/tr14/ clearly states
that:


When expanding or compressing interword space according to common typographical
practice, only the spaces marked by U+0020 SPACE and U+00A0 NO-BREAK SPACE are
subject to compression, and only spaces marked by U+0020 SPACE, U+00A0 NO-BREAK
SPACE, and occasionally spaces marked by U+2009 THIN SPACE are subject to
expansion. All other space characters normally have fixed width.

Whether LibreOffice or Word, both should comply to the above standard and
expand both U+0020 and U+00A0 equally. LibreOffice should not blindly mimic
what (changing) behaviour Word exhibits on this score.

Please fix this! This is a real embarrassment vis a vis good typography
practices. 

Whoever wants fixed width spaces please use one of the remaining space
characters!

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] "NO-BREAK SPACE" (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

--- Comment #29 from Jan  ---
Dear friends,

If I have understood the discussion well, the compatibility with standards and
other software is a problem.

But if we limit the solution to two cases:
- printing
- exporting to PDF
(which is entirely enough for me)

then the compatibility problem disappears, as LO can develop a proprietary
solution and encode this character in some way for the export only.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] "NO-BREAK SPACE" (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

--- Comment #28 from brecha...@gmail.com ---
I managed to work around it! Now I can do book-publishing in LibreOffice in the
Slovak language. I use the U+2060 (WORD JOINER [WJ]) character for a
non-breakable relative-width space. Does it work for you guys as well?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] "NO-BREAK SPACE" (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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--- Comment #27 from vhais...@gmail.com  ---
Microsoft does what Microsoft does. I can tell you as native Czech language
speaker and writer that the fixed size of the /U+0160 characters is
contrary to Czech typography. Currently, both Word in its latest version and
LibreOffice are unusable for any serious documents do to this issue. *Please*
make this at least optional per document or per paragraph or such.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] "NO-BREAK SPACE" (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

--- Comment #26 from rysson  ---
> It stopped commiting to modern standards for whatever reasson (probably the 
> whining of long‐term users).

Yeah. But it's not good reason to stop fixing it in LibreOffice.
At least the option can be added (fixed / non-fixed)..

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] "NO-BREAK SPACE" (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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--- Comment #25 from Fimicjus  ---
(In reply to rysson from comment #22)
> Hi.
> Web browsers use U+00A0 as non-breaking not-fixed-width space too.
> Also MS Office changed the behavior:
> 
> With the introduction of Word 2013, MS changed the behaviour of the ASCII
> 160 non-breaking space. It now conforms to the CSS space rules. This allows
> the space to expand/contract with justification so that all spaces on a line
> have the same width; the ASCII 160 behaviour could look odd with its
> fixed-width non-breaking spaces in such cases. For fixed-width non-breaking
> spaces you can use one of the other non-breaking space characters (eg Narrow
> No-Break Space: 202F,Alt-x).
> 
> Source:
> http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/office/forum/office_2013_release-word/
> distance-between-two-words-with-nonbreaking-space/3f6b3d0d-9ab7-422f-8381-
> 84c9ef06c7cb?auth=1

Well, they seem to change it again, because in Word 2016 the non‐breaking space
have a fixed‐width property again. It stopped commiting to modern standards for
whatever reasson (probably the whining of long‐term users). Source:

Source:
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/msoffice/forum/msoffice_word-mso_windows8-mso_2016/nonbreakable-space-justification-in-word-2016/4fa1ad30-004c-454f-9775-a3beaa91c88b

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] "NO-BREAK SPACE" (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

brecha...@gmail.com changed:

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 CC||brecha...@gmail.com

--- Comment #24 from brecha...@gmail.com ---
This concerns Slovak texts as well. It prevents me using LibreOffice for book
publishing.

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--- Comment #23 from vhais...@gmail.com  ---
This is biting me as well. It makes Libreoffice Writer basically unusable for
any serious Czech language text.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] "NO-BREAK SPACE" (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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--- Comment #22 from rysson  ---
Hi.
Web browsers use U+00A0 as non-breaking not-fixed-width space too.
Also MS Office changed the behavior:

With the introduction of Word 2013, MS changed the behaviour of the ASCII 160
non-breaking space. It now conforms to the CSS space rules. This allows the
space to expand/contract with justification so that all spaces on a line have
the same width; the ASCII 160 behaviour could look odd with its fixed-width
non-breaking spaces in such cases. For fixed-width non-breaking spaces you can
use one of the other non-breaking space characters (eg Narrow No-Break Space:
202F,Alt-x).

Source:
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/office/forum/office_2013_release-word/distance-between-two-words-with-nonbreaking-space/3f6b3d0d-9ab7-422f-8381-84c9ef06c7cb?auth=1

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] "NO-BREAK SPACE" (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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--- Comment #21 from Zenaan Harkness  ---
Anecdote from a 100-year old legal book in Australia (our "Annotated
Constitution"):
 - nbsp between name components such as "Mr. Smith" contain a narrow
non-breaking space
 - whereas nbsp between place names such as "Port Agusta" are normal or
proportional-width spaces (most of the book is justified)

I.e. to properly duplicate this book requires both types of spaces.

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--- Comment #20 from jkl  ---
(In reply to dohnp5a1 from comment #0)
> Created attachment 52184 [details]
> The preposition “s” may not stand in the end of line in Czech, thus no-break
> space is used after that

It's similar in polish editing style best practices, the correct behaviour
would really set apart LO positively.

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--- Comment #19 from Stanislav Horacek  ---
Created attachment 122957
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=122957=edit
non breaking space interpreted as fixed width space

Yes, this happens for all formats: ODT, DOCX and DOC.

A sample document (with text of the attached PNG) attached.

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--- Comment #18 from Chris Sherlock  ---
Question: is this occurring in .ODT *and* .DOCX files?

And chance of uploading a test document?

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--- Comment #16 from QA Administrators qa-ad...@libreoffice.org ---
** Please read this message in its entirety before responding **

To make sure we're focusing on the bugs that affect our users today,
LibreOffice QA is asking bug reporters and confirmers to retest open, confirmed
bugs which have not been touched for over a year.

There have been thousands of bug fixes and commits since anyone checked on this
bug report. During that time, it's possible that the bug has been fixed, or the
details of the problem have changed. We'd really appreciate your help in
getting confirmation that the bug is still present.

If you have time, please do the following:

Test to see if the bug is still present on a currently supported version of
LibreOffice (4.4.1 or later): https://www.libreoffice.org/download/

If the bug is present, please leave a comment that includes the version of
LibreOffice and your operating system, and any changes you see in the bug
behavior

If the bug is NOT present, please set the bug's Status field to
RESOLVED-WORKSFORME and leave a short comment that includes your version of
LibreOffice and Operating System

Please DO NOT

Update the version field
Reply via email (please reply directly on the bug tracker)
Set the bug's Status field to RESOLVED - FIXED (this status has a particular
meaning that is not appropriate in this case)


If you want to do more to help you can test to see if your issue is a
REGRESSION. To do so: 1. Download and install oldest version of LibreOffice
(usually 3.3 unless your bug pertains to a feature added after 3.3)

http://downloadarchive.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/old/

2. Test your bug 3. Leave a comment with your results. 4a. If the bug was
present with 3.3 - set version to inherited from OOo; 4b. If the bug was not
present in 3.3 - add regression to keyword


Feel free to come ask questions or to say hello in our QA chat:
http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=libreoffice-qa

Thank you for your help!

-- The LibreOffice QA Team This NEW Message was generated on: 2015-07-18

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--- Comment #17 from dohnp...@gmail.com ---
The bug is still present in LibreOffice 4.4.4.3, on Ubuntu 14.04 LTS, its
behavior did not undergo any changes.

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Simo Kaupinmäki isoku...@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||46770

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] NO-BREAK SPACE (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

dohnp...@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Hardware|Other   |All
   Severity|enhancement |normal

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] NO-BREAK SPACE (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

--- Comment #15 from Roman Eisele b...@eikota.de ---
(In reply to comment #5)
 Jan_J (bug 49674 comment 2) proposed to use the Unicode word joiner U+2060
 with a normal space to get a non-fixed-width non-breakable space. But U+2060
 is a zero width non-breaking space inhibiting line breaks at both sides
 which is intended for disambiguation of functions for byte order mark
 (Unicode 6.2). That does not sound like a good candidate for such a space
 (and one would need the triple U+2060 + U+0020 + U+2060, wouldn't one?).

For Jan_J’s request (and related problems of the line-breaking algorithm),
there is now bug 57652 - “Wrong treatment of Word Joiner (U+2060) in line
breaking algorithm”.

However, I think that one solution does not necessarily invalidate the other.
I.e., when the bug 57652 would get fixed, and WJ + SP (+ WJ) would act like an
elastic NBSP, we could still discuss if the behaviour of U+00A0 should be
changed, too (or better: if an option to choose the behaviour of U+00A0,
elastic or fixed, should be added). So the present bug report is still a valid
enhancement request and essentially independend from bug 57652.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] NO-BREAK SPACE (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

--- Comment #14 from Roman Eisele b...@eikota.de ---
(In reply to comment #13)
 We all more or less seem to agree that the rendering of U+00A0 as a
 fixed-width space is basically a bug.
Yes. But a special kind of bug: a bug which has been sanctioned by the fact
that it has been in Microsoft’s applications since ages, and therefore is
considered as some kind of “industry standard” by many people :-(

 Therefore it is a somewhat perverted
 situation that the bug cannot simply be fixed without paying attention to
 how the incorrect behaviour can also be preserved. Is it actually worth the
 trouble?
IMHO we can not just fix this bug by rendering U+00A0 as a proportional space,
because many people, probably: most (!) people will consider the new,
proportional rendering as a bug and cry: “You don’t render my .doc files
correctly anymore, fix this!” ...

Therefore the simplest solution which improves typography in LibreOffice
without breaking the (wrong) assumptions of many people is (as already
suggested in comment #3) to let the user configure in
Options/Writer/Compatibility how the classical “hard space” (U+00A0) should be
rendered: fixed-width as in Word or proportional (as Unicode and many (most?!)
textbooks about typography suggest). This option should work on a per-document
base, of course. So all existing documents will look like before when we open
it, but can be changed to the new, better rendering by just switching that
option; and the same option will also control the behaviour of documents
created anew.

Adding that option should not be too difficult; I remember that similar
additional compatibility options have been added in the past with relatively
few lines of code ...


Sorry for just repeating my initial suggestion, but IMHO all the other, more
advanced stuff -- e.g. bigger spaces after a sentence-ending period -- are
different items, for which we should file special enhancement requests, if
necessary. The present bug report is already far too long and complicated --
no developer who is just looking for some work to be done will understand
easily the many things we have been already discussing in this single bug
report ;-)

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] NO-BREAK SPACE (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

--- Comment #13 from Simo Kaupinmäki isoku...@gmail.com ---
(In reply to comment #12)
We all more or less seem to agree that the rendering of U+00A0 as a fixed-width
space is basically a bug. Therefore it is a somewhat perverted situation that
the bug cannot simply be fixed without paying attention to how the incorrect
behaviour can also be preserved. Is it actually worth the trouble? I am not
saying that it is a complete waste of time and effort, but this is a question
that deserves to be asked too.

It was not me who brought up that there are a variety of fixed-width spaces in
Unicode. Nevertheless, as we are discussing whether or not U+00A0 should
continue to be rendered as a fixed-width space, at least optionally, we should
try to understand the background to and reasoning behind these standardized
fixed-width spaces (and why U+00A0 is not one of them). Sure, some of them are
still relevant today, but unquestionably some are redundant (U+2000 and U+2001
are canonically equivalent to U+2002 and U+2003 respectively). And then there
are some the relevance of which can be questioned as far as modern typesetting
practices are concerned.

However, nobody has suggested that the redundant or possibly archaic Unicode
characters need not be handled correctly. That is not the issue here. There are
many redundant, archaic and even deprecated characters in Unicode, for which
the main motivation is historical. People who want to use these characters for
whatever reason in their documents should certainly have the option to do so,
even if it may not always be the most elegant or technically reliable choice in
digital typesetting.

  Using the Unicode
  fixed-width spaces for manual justifying in digital typesetting would be
  awkward and anachronistic.

 there is no
 other way to define the spacing you want but in the form of glyphs.

I'm afraid you may have missed my point, so I'll try to clarify. The example
was about how text used to be _justified_ manually. Historically, to achieve
this effect you would have applied specific space values between words on each
line. This was in fact one of the main uses for the various space values in
manual typesetting. Today, however, if you want spacing on each line to be
even, you simply specify that the text should be justified and let your
application software automatically adjust the width of spaces accordingly.
There is no point in using various fixed-width spaces for this purpose anymore.

Historically, the first line of a paragraph would have been indented about one
em space. Today, rather than inserting U+2003 (or U+2001), you can specify a
fixed indentation value that will automatically be applied at the beginning of
each paragraph. There is no need for a specific glyph there anymore.

Historically, certain punctuation, such as a sentence-ending period, would have
been followed by an em space or a couple of three-per-em spaces. Today this is
often regarded old-fashioned, but people who still want to follow the tradition
simply tend to type two (or even three?) regular spaces after the period. Sure,
a purist could insert a U+2003 or a couple of U+2004s instead, but I fail to
see how this would make any significant improvement from a typographical point
of view.

Yes, you can continue to use all the standard fixed-width spaces if you want
to, but this is what you choose to do and it does not make the _software_
anachronistic. When using a word processor, my father, who is in his late
seventies, still tends to break lines manually by tapping the return key at the
end of each line, and he may also hyphenate the last word on a line by
inserting a regular hyphen (U+002D) before the line break. This is because his
paradigm of typing is of a different era. He does not take full advantage of
the modern technology (in fact he still prefers a mechanical typewriter
occasionally) – and that's fine, since he is retired and mostly writes for his
own pleasure every now and then. But for the rest of us it is good to know that
today there are more elegant methods of typing a piece of text.

As regards French spacing in « Bonjour ! », inserting a non-breakable thin
space before or after the punctuation marks may be a practical solution at the
present time, but there are in fact alternative methods for this too. Smart
font technology, as exemplified by Linux Libertine G and Linux Biolinum G
fonts (already bundled with the recent versions of LibreOffice, even on
Windows), allows automatic application of French spacing where deemed
appropriate. There is no need to insert a specific space character, as
LibreOffice is able to recognize the guillemets, exclamation marks, question
marks etc. and take care of proper spacing by making use of additional
instructions incorporated in the font itself. Unfortunately the technology is
far from being universally supported (and there are several alternative ways to
incorporate similar features), but 

[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] NO-BREAK SPACE (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

--- Comment #11 from stfhell stfh...@googlemail.com ---
(re Comment #10) I don't think it makes much sense to discuss the merits of
various spaces or typography issues, Simo, especially on LO Bugzilla. The
characters exist, people can use them, and LO should handle them as well as
possible. The details are often just a matter of taste, or the willingness to
distinguish among a dozen kinds of space characters...

I think Roman's proposal (Comment #3) to let the user configure in
Options/Writer/Compatibility how the classical hard space (encoded as U+00A0)
should be handled (fixed-width as in Word or proportional as Unicode says) is a
very practical solution. The Compatibility menu gives users the choice to set
an option just for the current file or use it as a default.

If you decide to go with Unicode standards and configure a proportional U+00A0,
you can use the characters that Unicode has defined as fixed-width spaces:
U+2000 to U+200A, U+202F, U+205F.

The problem here is interoperability with MS Word, because Word, as said,
displays all characters not defined in the font as box characters. But
probably this is becoming less of a problem. I had a look at some fonts: For
Windows 7, Microsoft supplies fonts that actually define the various Unicode
spaces. So it would be users of older Windows versions or users of the many
fonts with a more restricted character set that would see the box character.
You can, as a workaround, format all fixed-width spaces in Verdana, Times New
Roman or some other Unicode font to avoid that (somewhat, at least).

You can use fileformat.info to check some font glyph sets:
http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/202f/fontsupport.htm
(for U+202F), or you can use the character map application of the OS.

I have no idea how comprehensive the fonts that come with MacOS are, or if Word
for Mac has the same box character issue as Word for Win. Would be good to
know...

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] NO-BREAK SPACE (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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--- Comment #12 from stfhell stfh...@googlemail.com ---
(In reply to comment #10)
 Using the Unicode
 fixed-width spaces for manual justifying in digital typesetting would be
 awkward and anachronistic.

I consider a good support for Unicode spaces as something essential for a word
processor with advanced layout capabilities. Software like Word or LibreOffice
and even InDesign is in many respects anachronistic in your sense of the word
(typewriter-like or lead-typesetting-like), there is no other way to define the
spacing you want but in the form of glyphs. With XSL transformations of XML
documents (or TeX) you can have a stylesheet (instead of the document) define
the spaces in a template, thus achieving a uniform handling of for example thin
spaces around « Bonjour! » - but even then you need to define the spaces as
Unicode characters in the template. You just needn't encode them in your
document. With word processors (and DTP software), you have to set all the
spaces yourself in the document text. It is somewhat anachronistic and very
error-prone typesetting - but a straightforward and simple concept for users.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] NO-BREAK SPACE (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

--- Comment #10 from Simo Kaupinmäki isoku...@gmail.com ---
(In reply to comment #9)
 I can direct you to the orthographic German Duden (following DIN 5008
 for letter-writing): With office documents and e-mails use a space after
 abbreviation dots (z. B., u. a. m.), but not in dates (05.07.06); in word
 processing use a small fixed-width space in both abbreviations and dates.

Thank you for the reference. I got hold of a copy of the 2009 edition of
Duden: die deutsche Rechtschreibung, which defines hard spaces
(Festabstände) as fixed-width, mostly smaller (meist kleinere) spaces that
prohibit line breaks (the same definition is already included in the 2000
edition and available online:
http://www.egb-buende.de/tools/EDV_Fuehrerschein_NRW/03_Grundlagen_Textverarbeitung/textverarbeitung_duden1.pdf).
 

So, this definition primarily seems to concern non-breakable _thin_ spaces,
though the modifier meist leaves room for some interpretation. Furthermore,
in the context of specific examples (e.g., of the use of the percent sign) it
is repeatedly said that a smaller space should be used that is explicitly
described as both hard and protected (geschützter; the 2000 edition isn't
quite as explicit on these points). On the other hand, according to the 2009
edition, the official standard DIN 5008 speaks of a full (ganzer) space,
which apparently needs be neither fixed-width nor non-breakable. My reading of
all this is that almost any space will do, but a non-breakable thin space is
preferred. And this was basically what I was talking about: normally you'd want
either a variable-width space or a _thin_ fixed-width space, not a fixed-width
space that sometimes looks like a normal space and sometimes not.

 They are tools for laying out text, not necessarily a way to encode text
 as information - typesetters use such things as double 1/4 quad spaces.
 
 So fixed-width variants of normal space size do have a use (and Unicode
 defines them: U+2002, U+2004, U+2005 etc.). The important point is not that
 the fixed-width space should be distinguishable in all cases, but that it
 should not be extensible with proportional spacing. In good typography such
 spaces should in most cases be smaller than the regular space (as you say).

Now I'm a little confused. Are you talking of the regular no-break space
(U+00A0) or the _narrow_ no-break space (U+202F) here?

What I said was basically that in the ideal case there should hardly be any
distinguishable difference between U+00A0 and a normal space, even if U+00A0
was treated as a fixed-width space. If a fixed-width space is not
distinguishable from a normal space, it does not matter in practice whether it
is of fixed width or not. A different matter is that often U+00A0 is just used
as the poor man's narrow no-break space, relying on it being treated as a
fixed-width space in justified text. I can see the reasoning, but this usage is
not in alignment with the best practices of traditional typography as far as I
can see.

Granted, Unicode defines a set of fixed-width spaces, the majority of which
are, as formulated on the Microsoft page you referred to, characters
corresponding to traditional typographic _space_values_ that have indeed been
applied in manual typesetting. Historically, for each space between words on a
line, an identical space value (typically corresponding to U+2004 or U+2005)
would have been applied. For each space on other lines, a slightly different
value was applicable when necessary to get all the lines justified. After
punctuation, a larger-than-average value would often have been preferred, or in
some special cases, a thin space. 

For more details, see paragraphs 239–254 explaining technical terms in the 1st
edition of the Chicago Manual of Style (published in 1906): 

http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/facsimile/CMSfacsimile_terms.pdf

This is the historical background to the Unicode fixed-width spaces, and one
might want to argue that many of these characters are of little practical use
in the age of digital typography. Notably, most of the Unicode fixed-width
spaces are _breakable_ and have no non-breakable counterparts (breakability was
not a concern in manual typesetting, as each line was typeset as a separate
unit). This can be seen as a deficiency in the Unicode character repertoire, or
alternatively perhaps as an implicit stand that the kind of fine adjustment
they were originally intended for should rather rely on different means in
modern typesetting systems. Using the Unicode fixed-width spaces for manual
justifying in digital typesetting would be awkward and anachronistic.

Be that as it may, there is not much LibreOffice can do to change the overall
situation. If a document is first edited in LibreOffice and then opened in
another application (possibly after being exported into a specific format),
U+00A0 will be rendered either as a variable-width space (in Firefox) or as a
fixed-width space 

[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] NO-BREAK SPACE (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

--- Comment #9 from stfhell stfh...@googlemail.com ---
(In reply to comment #7)
 It is easy to agree with Stfhell's notion that the intervening space in
 expressions such as Dr Freud and 5 % should be non-breaking, but I can't
 quite see the reasoning behind it having to be of fixed width too. By
 similar logic, shouldn't the spaces in Sigmund Freud and five per cent
 have fixed width as well? I find it rather inconsistent that a non-breaking
 space, which in non-justified text looks exactly like an average space, may
 stand out as narrower than average if the text is justified. Can you point
 out an authoritative source that actually recommends this?

Typesetting conventions are conventions, not ISO standards, and they vary with
language and time and personal taste. I can direct you to the orthographic
German Duden (following DIN 5008 for letter-writing): With office documents
and e-mails use a space after abbreviation dots (z. B., u. a. m.), but not in
dates (05.07.06); in word processing use a small fixed-width space in both
abbreviations and dates. (What merriam-webster.com and oxforddictionaries.com
do is compatible with _English_ typesetting practise and with common writer's
practise, because it's the easiest way to prohibit a line break.)

Spaces before/after/around symbols like $ %  / « » vary a lot, but in
typesetting handbooks you usually find recommendations like 1/6 or 1/8 or 0 em
quad. A full and proportional space would be regarded as unprofessional
typesetting in Germany. In typesetting systems, users have fixed-width spaces
of all sizes (including the normal inter-word size of about 1/4 quad) for all
kinds of usages (space between chapter number and title; aligning numbers like
347 and _47 vertically; insert a space at paragraph end to avoid the last
line being fully justified). They are tools for laying out text, not
necessarily a way to encode text as information - typesetters use such things
as double 1/4 quad spaces.

So fixed-width variants of normal space size do have a use (and Unicode defines
them: U+2002, U+2004, U+2005 etc.). The important point is not that the
fixed-width space should be distinguishable in all cases, but that it should
not be extensible with proportional spacing. In good typography such spaces
should in most cases be smaller than the regular space (as you say).

And, of course, you are right in that U+00A0 is _not_ defined as fixed-width.
And Microsoft knows that:
http://www.microsoft.com/typography/developers/fdsspec/spaces.htm
But designing fonts and designing word processors are different things for
Microsoft. Offering Word users a submenu with various types of spaces would be
overkill for most users, and Microsoft has decided to offer them the
fixed-width normal space as a single compromise alternative. Whether from the
need to be downward-compatible with pre-Unicode documents, from
misinterpretation of the Unicode standards or from conscious design principles.
(Word processors are in fact used as modern typewriters, people don't want to
fiddle with half a dozen spaces, and many don't even bother with hard spaces.)

In a world where only recent versions of Firefox render U+00A0 correctly, where
Adobe epub-reader software cannot render a soft hyphen correctly and the most
commonly used word processor renders all spaces apart from U+0020 and U+00A0 as
boxes if the font doesn't define them (LibreOffice uses the glyphs from a
substitution font), you cannot just follow Unicode standards blindly without
regard to compatibility issues.

But of course there is other software than MS Word. InDesign imports Unicode
spaces well from DOC files, and LibreOffice shouldn't let itself be limited by
a word processor with modest formatting capabilities. (In InDesign, imported
U+00A0 are rendered correctly. Thin spaces are fixed-width, as far as I know,
in line with common typesetting practise.) But it should be a conscious
decision of the user to depart from Word conventions on a per-document basis.
The problem is: What space could be used for fixed-width spaces (for which
there is also a definite need) if you tick that future LO box Treat hard space
as proportional?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] NO-BREAK SPACE (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

--- Comment #8 from Simo Kaupinmäki isoku...@gmail.com ---
Oh, the two dictionary links included in my previous comment should incorporate
the final period, which apparently has been interpreted as sentence-ending
punctuation by the Bugzilla system.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] NO-BREAK SPACE (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

Simo Kaupinmäki isoku...@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||isoku...@gmail.com

--- Comment #7 from Simo Kaupinmäki isoku...@gmail.com ---
It is easy to agree with Stfhell's notion that the intervening space in
expressions such as Dr Freud and 5 % should be non-breaking, but I can't
quite see the reasoning behind it having to be of fixed width too. By similar
logic, shouldn't the spaces in Sigmund Freud and five per cent have fixed
width as well? I find it rather inconsistent that a non-breaking space, which
in non-justified text looks exactly like an average space, may stand out as
narrower than average if the text is justified. Can you point out an
authoritative source that actually recommends this? (Note that even in
justified text, the difference will only be discernible on some of the lines,
and in carefully typeset publications it should ideally not be discernible at
all because the variation between lines is minimized by using hyphenation.)

The French spacing applied in connection with certain punctuation is a little
different matter, as U+00A0 is mostly considered too wide for this purpose in
professional-level typography as far as I know. A more appropriate character
should be the narrow no-break space U+202F (though technical support for it may
still be lacking in some environments; for a detailed, though not necessarily
quite up-to-date discussion, see
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/595365/how-to-render-narrow-non-breaking-spaces-in-html-for-windows).

As regards abbreviations such as i.e. the standard way to write these seems
to be without any space, at least as far as English is concerned:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/i.e.
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/i.e.

So, in principle what my point boils down to is this: Is there actually a
legitimate need for a fixed-width no-break space that is _only_randomly_
distinguishable from a normal space in justified text? Sure, many people have
learned to expect that U+00A0 behaves like that, but from a professional
typographer's perspective this expectation may be misguided, and it is clearly
contradicted by the Unicode standard. (It may also be worth noting that Firefox
nowadays seems compliant with the Unicode in its rendering of U+00A0.)

That said, the approach suggested by Stfhell might indeed offer a practical
compromise, catering both for the Unicode-compliant view and the MS
Word-compliant view.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] NO-BREAK SPACE (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

stfhell stfh...@googlemail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||stfh...@googlemail.com
Summary|“NO-BREAK SPACE” (U+00A0)   |NO-BREAK SPACE (U+00A0)
   |interpretated incorrectly   |interpreted as fixed-width
   ||space

--- Comment #5 from stfhell stfh...@googlemail.com ---
I think this should be classified as an enhancement rather than a bug. The
current behaviour is in fact ancient word processing practice, predating
Unicode standards. U+00A0 became the successor of the old hard space defined
for use with ASCII codesets, and changing the treatment of U+00A0 would break
countless documents which purposely use hard spaces as _fixed-width_
non-breakable spaces (with abbreviations like Dr Freud, i. e. or
punctuation like « Bonjour! », 5 % etc.). It would also be not compatible
with current MS Word practise.

However, distinguishing between different forms of white space is a
typographical need and should be addressed somehow. DTP software like InDesign
has all sorts of spaces: em space, en space, nonbreaking space, nonbreaking
space fixed width, third/quarter/sixth/hair/thin space (1/3, 1/4, 1/6, 1/24,
1/8 em space), figure space, punctuation space. LibreOffice has space and
hard space (and of course Unicode spaces like U+202F and U+2009, which it
handles better than MS Word).

Jan_J (bug 49674 comment 2) proposed to use the Unicode word joiner U+2060 with
a normal space to get a non-fixed-width non-breakable space. But U+2060 is a
zero width non-breaking space inhibiting line breaks at both sides which is
intended for disambiguation of functions for byte order mark (Unicode 6.2).
That does not sound like a good candidate for such a space (and one would need
the triple U+2060 + U+0020 + U+2060, wouldn't one?).

Users definitely also need non-breakable _fixed-width_ spaces, and if LO
redefined U+00A0 as of non-fixed-width (in accordance with Unicode) - what
character should be used for the classical hard space? MS Word displays box
characters for symbols not defined in the active font, which should be kept in
mind. (I know it cannot handle U+2009, but I haven't tested U+202F.)

A practical solution would probably be to let the user decide on a per
document-basis how to interpret U+00A0: fixed width or proportional? That is,
to add a configuration option under Writer/Compatibility. But even then one
should _still_ be able to use all necessary kinds of spaces at least in ODT;
they may need to be converted for DOC/DOX export, however, because of MS Word
limitations.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 41652] NO-BREAK SPACE (U+00A0) interpreted as fixed-width space

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41652

Roman Eisele b...@eikota.de changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Severity|major   |enhancement

--- Comment #6 from Roman Eisele b...@eikota.de ---
@ stfhell:

Thank you for your careful description of the situation and of possible
options!
You are right, this issue is better regarded as an enhancement request;
therefore I change the Importance field accordingly.

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