[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 95039] Calc Fatal Error - SEH Exception: Access Violation

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=95039

helplibreoff...@mailcatch.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|RESOLVED|UNCONFIRMED
 Resolution|WORKSFORME  |---

--- Comment #16 from helplibreoff...@mailcatch.com ---
Instead of responding to Joel Madero and Norbert Thiebaud with the same
atrocious nastiness and hostility that they each decided to exhibit (shame on
you both), I chose to dedicate my time to peacefully testing LibreOffice to
find what is actually causing it to crash so often.

I successfully found the root cause of the bug that all the crashtesting VMs
and fuzzers were not able to find.  The root cause of the bug would cascade,
causing LibreOffice Calc to generate an Access Violation.  By narrowing it down
to the root cause, the Access Violation can be avoided, but LibreOffice Calc
will still crash each and every time.

Steps to reproduce:

1. Open LibreOffice Calc v5.0.4.1
2. Enter 1 into A1
3. Enter 0 into A2
4. Select A1
5. Go to Format->Conditional Formatting->Icon Set
6. In the resultant dialog box, change the yellow arrow row to "=A2" and
"Formula", and then click OK
7. Select A2
8. Go to Format->Conditional Formatting->Icon Set
9. In the resultant dialog box, change the yellow arrow row to "=A1" and
"Formula", and then click OK
10. Save the spreadsheet
11. Close LibreOffice Calc
12. LIBREOFFICE CALC WILL NOW CRASH
13. Open the saved file in LibreOffice Calc
14. Close LibreOffice Calc
15. LIBREOFFICE CALC WILL NOW CRASH, JUST BY EXITING LIBREOFFICE CALC
16. Repeat steps 13-14
17. LIBREOFFICE CALC WILL CRASH EACH TIME

Note that even if many edits are performed in the spreadsheet between steps 13
and 14, LibreOffice Calc will still crash.  To one of my clients, it made it
look like each edit was causing another crash.  In fact, as steps 16-17
demonstrate, simply opening the file and then closing LibreOffice Calc will
result in a crash.

Based on the behavior of Joel Madero and Norbert Thiebaud, I will no longer be
making my annual financial donation to The Document Foundation.  After
witnessing the treatment I received, I doubt any of my clients will continue to
donate.

Although I will no longer be contributing financially, I hope this bug report
will help improve the LibreOffice project.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 95039] Calc Fatal Error - SEH Exception: Access Violation

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=95039

--- Comment #12 from Beluga  ---
(In reply to helplibreoffice from comment #11)
> If you actually took a moment to read the bug report I filed, you would
> understand that providing a trace is impossible as is providing a document
> that will reliably reproduce the bug.
> 
> I have taken my time to accurately and extensively provide every detail I
> could in order to help this project.

If we assume you had been able to get it to crash again, I don't see why
getting a backtrace would have been impossible.

If we assume that you will not be able to get it to crash ever again, then this
report will lead nowhere and such weird crashes are best left to the
crashtesting VM and fuzzers and such.

You can read more about those in these links:
https://mmohrhard.wordpress.com/2013/04/19/automated-import-crash-testing-in-libreoffice/
http://caolanm.blogspot.com/2015/10/finding-ui-crashes-by-fuzzing-input.html

It is untenable that you ask us to behave in a certain way or you will start
painting LibreOffice black. You know you can always come back to this report,
add new findings and open it again, so why resort to threats?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 95039] Calc Fatal Error - SEH Exception: Access Violation

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=95039

--- Comment #15 from Norbert Thiebaud  ---
"Most of my clients are not willing to use software that exhibits hard crashes"

Then your clients cannot possibly be using any software, and since you had open
that bug for 'Windows' surely you statement is not true.

Oh, btw, your 'clients' are not our 'clients'. We are a free software project.
most of us are doing this on their free time, none of us have any obligation to
care about your clients... There are services company that specialize in that,
if you want a service-level agreement you should contact them.

"I'll take a few minutes of my time to explain best practices regarding
software testing and development."

You should not have. keep your precious time and avoid wasting ours at the same
time... 

"I am available for trainings on this topic,"
And yet you seems not to be very familiar with it as illustrated by you tantrum
and demands.

"It is very common in the industry for software to have major bugs that are not
easily reproduced  This is nothing new."

No easily reproduced is not the same as not reproducible by any known method.

"My report is a good example of one that provides extensive details as to the
steps that resulted in the product (LibreOffice, in this case) crashing."

your report boils down to: I managed to crash the product, I can't reproduce
the crash, and I won't give you the document that trigger it..
iow, no dev can do anything about it.
my favorite part is 
"2. LO Calc would open, the spreadsheet would display, the error would appear,
and LO Calc would hard crash.  There was no way to try to save the file."

the error being the crash-notification dialog right ? that was not followed by
Lo crashing 'hard' (as if there was such a s thing as a soft crash), that was
preceded by it, which triggered the crash dialog.
No way to save the file ? you said you just opened it, why would there be any
reason to save anything.. beside yeah, upon a crash by definition you can't
continue to use the app, to save or otherwise

There is nothing inherently wrong with your attempt, and no-one would have
pointed it out had you not insisted to be an expert on the topic and claimed to
have provided:
"Now that you have a quality report"

If you _actually_ had any understanding is what is involved in software
development you would not have hold such ludicrous assessment.

"Such a team will also work to encourage users and developers alike to provide
more supportive data."

we did and we get:
"I cannot upload the file."
"I tried the jump list again to load the ORIGINAL file (the one that just
repeatedly caused the hard abend), and it suddenly loaded without error."

How on earth do you imagine anyone can do anything with that.

"The onus is on the development team to gather more information about the bug,
in order to fix it."

You do not have the first clue about how free software works... the devs owe
you nothing, nor does any other _volunteers_ working on the project.
Most of us are usually willing to help, but banging your fist on the table with
a sens of entitlement is not the best way to get people to spend their free
time helping you.

and btw, earlier you said:
"You don't speak for this project, and thankfully, you never will."
If you cared even a little about the project, you might have seen this page:
https://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/board/

pay attention to the third entry there...


my advice: keep off the keyboard for a few days... collect yourself, try to
reproduce the bug  and come back, keeping in mind that we are not your vendor
or employee.. we do that in our spare time and certainly not to be yelled at,
insulted, patronized
I, for one, do not hold grudge.. so I will assume, for now, that you just had a
bad day, and needed to vent, and that normally you are not like that.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 95039] Calc Fatal Error - SEH Exception: Access Violation

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=95039

--- Comment #14 from Joel Madero  ---
You clearly don't understand the open source world - the "onus is on the
developer" is about as ridiculous of a statement as can be found on our bug
tracker. I'm not sure why you're still being active - the issue is closed,
you're moving on, we're okay with that (again, wishing you best wishes along
the way). 

Would you like for me to close your bugzilla account? (real question since you
said you're moving away from LibreOffice and won't be using the bugzilla
account any longer)

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 95039] Calc Fatal Error - SEH Exception: Access Violation

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=95039

--- Comment #13 from helplibreoff...@mailcatch.com ---
Naturally, if the crash is reproducible, I will provide a backtrace.  That's a
given.

Your two assumptions disregard many possibilities, including the most obvious
one: that other people may experience the same issue and will add more details.
 One user already started doing this before the bug was erroneously relabeled
as WORKSFORME.

I have made no threats.  Most of my clients are not willing to use software
that exhibits hard crashes, that when reported, the response is the proverbial
"don't let the door hit you on the way out".  Furthermore, in good faith, a
quality consultant cannot recommend such a product to any clients for
production use.

I'll take a few minutes of my time to explain best practices regarding software
testing and development.  I am available for trainings on this topic, although
my schedule is completely booked for the immediate future.

It is very common in the industry for software to have major bugs that are not
easily reproduced  This is nothing new.

When such bugs occur, the best practice is to gather as much information
regarding the circumstances of the bug.  This typically includes software,
hardware, and the steps the operator took when the bug occurred.  My report is
a good example of one that provides extensive details as to the steps that
resulted in the product (LibreOffice, in this case) crashing.

The best practice is also to gather as much information as possible as to the
specific errors generated.  Again, my report is a good example of one that
provides such information.

Now that you have a quality report, the last thing you want to do is shuffle it
off into the "we will never look at this again" file.  Best practice is to do
exactly the opposite.

Best practice is to request correlative data from other parties.  An effective
development team (which includes the QA department) will work to collect all
other data that might be related to the issue.  Such a team will also work to
encourage users and developers alike to provide more supportive data.  For
example, some proactive firms will issue bulletins indicating that one customer
is experiencing an issue, and request correlative data from other firms.

Many serious bugs go unreported or under-reported.  The onus is on the
development team to gather more information about the bug, in order to fix it. 
The last thing a team wants to do is sweep bugs under the carpet.  When that
type of behavior is condoned, the quality of the product always declines.  In
response, the size of the user-base decreases as people find other solutions to
meet their data processing needs.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 95039] Calc Fatal Error - SEH Exception: Access Violation

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=95039

--- Comment #10 from Joel Madero  ---
Fair enough - good luck. If you ever return just know that we expect our users
who have hard to reproduce bugs to work with us (which we asked, provide a
sample, and do a backtrace). We're available to help (both via email and in
live chat). The fact that you've decided that you can't take the time to do
these things just reflects your misunderstanding of how our project works. That
being said, it seems to not work for you, so, again, good luck moving forward.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 95039] Calc Fatal Error - SEH Exception: Access Violation

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=95039

--- Comment #9 from helplibreoff...@mailcatch.com ---
Just to be clear, it appears to be a waste of time for people to submit bug
reports (even critical crash reports) unless the crash is easily reproducible.

I will no longer be submitting such bug reports, and will instruct my clients
to refrain from doing so.  Unfortunately, it also means many clients will have
to switch away from LibreOffice.

If multiple people all experience LibreOffice crashes that cannot easily be
reproduced, there will be no work to fix it, because all the bug reports will
be closed and marked "WORKSFORME".

This is contrary to best practices for software development and testing.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 95039] Calc Fatal Error - SEH Exception: Access Violation

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=95039

--- Comment #11 from helplibreoff...@mailcatch.com ---
Your attitude comes across clearly.

If you actually took a moment to read the bug report I filed, you would
understand that providing a trace is impossible as is providing a document that
will reliably reproduce the bug.

I have taken my time to accurately and extensively provide every detail I could
in order to help this project.

Your "don't let the door hit you on the way out" attitude is appalling for a
community-based open-source project like this.  LibreOffice does not belong to
you.  You don't speak for this project, and thankfully, you never will.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 95039] Calc Fatal Error - SEH Exception: Access Violation

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=95039

Joel Madero  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |RESOLVED
 CC||jmadero@gmail.com
 Resolution|--- |WORKSFORME

--- Comment #8 from Joel Madero  ---
There really isn't enough information here for us to do anything about the
issue. If you want you can do a trace of the crash (since you've provided
nothing for us to really reproduce) and attach it to this bug.

I am marking this as WFM - please do not reopen it until you've provided a
detailed log according to the wiki below. When you do, you can change status as
UNCONFIRMED. Thanks

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/How_to_debug

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 95039] Calc Fatal Error - SEH Exception: Access Violation

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=95039

--- Comment #7 from Jean Paul  ---
(In reply to Jean Paul from comment #6)
> Since on LibreOffice 5.0.X, Must return in previous version (For many
> computer of my office in 4.4.3.2). In 4.4.x no problem. No problem in
> OpenOffice 4.1.1. Trying to repair file > KO nothing better. Delete profile
> doesnt have effect.

Seems to be with a huge number of data. Mine have 19 tab and one picture(3kb).

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 95039] Calc Fatal Error - SEH Exception: Access Violation

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=95039

--- Comment #6 from Jean Paul  ---
Since on LibreOffice 5.0.X, Must return in previous version (For many computer
of my office in 4.4.3.2). In 4.4.x no problem. No problem in OpenOffice 4.1.1.
Trying to repair file > KO nothing better. Delete profile doesnt have effect.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 95039] Calc Fatal Error - SEH Exception: Access Violation

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=95039

Beluga  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |WORKSFORME

--- Comment #3 from Beluga  ---
Ok, then we can't really confirm it. I'm going to have to set this to
worksforme, but if the problem returns and you manage to replicate it and get a
backtrace, you could change it back to unconfirmed.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 95039] Calc Fatal Error - SEH Exception: Access Violation

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=95039

--- Comment #5 from Beluga  ---
Well, do you have a plan for when we can set this to WFM, then? Does 6 months
without it occurring again qualify for closing?

I recently completed a survey and found that we have about 80 reports in the
tracker that could be resolved by this:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/UserProfile#Resolving_corruption_in_the_user_profile
User profile corruption (which is a bit vague of a term) can lead to all kinds
of craziness, including crashes. Yet, the reports are not left open after it is
discovered a profile reset solved it.

Without a backtrace of the crash or a reliably crashing file, there is nothing
a developer or a QA person can do to investigate.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 95039] Calc Fatal Error - SEH Exception: Access Violation

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=95039

helplibreoff...@mailcatch.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|RESOLVED|UNCONFIRMED
 Resolution|WORKSFORME  |---

--- Comment #4 from helplibreoff...@mailcatch.com ---
Okay, sounds good.  Well, maybe not.

If a bug, even a severe crash bug like this one, cannot be reliably reproduced,
is it best just not to report it?  For non-reproducible bugs, it seems like it
is a waste of the bug-reporter's time to compose a detailed report.

I made it a priority to stop my work and file a bug report to help the
LibreOffice community.  I spent my time writing all the details.  I provided
the exact steps I took that fixed the issue.  To someone more familiar with the
LibreOffice code, that info may hold the key to understanding the problem.  If
this bug is flagged RESOLVED-WORKSFORME, we will never know, because no one
will ever read it.

The bug is definitely present.  I don't think it's in LibreOffice's best
interest to mark known bugs as RESOLVED.  Marking it as UNCONFIRMED is
appropriate, because it has not been confirmed by another party (well, except
for everyone at the client's office who lost confidence in LibreOffice as they
watched it crash repeatedly).

I truly understand that it makes life much easier when a bug can be reliably
reproduced, but the most challenging bugs are not like that.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 95039] Calc Fatal Error - SEH Exception: Access Violation

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=95039

Beluga  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEEDINFO
 CC||todven...@suomi24.fi
 Ever confirmed|0   |1

--- Comment #1 from Beluga  ---
If you can't share the original file, you could anonymize it:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Bugzilla/Sanitizing_Files_Before_Submission#Sanitize_file_text
Hopefully you could still reproduce the crash with the anonymized file.

You might try to get a backtrace of the crash:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/How_to_get_a_backtrace_with_WinDbg

Without the file we can't reproduce this.

Set to NEEDINFO.
Change back to UNCONFIRMED after you have provided more information/the file.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 95039] Calc Fatal Error - SEH Exception: Access Violation

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=95039

helplibreoff...@mailcatch.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEEDINFO|UNCONFIRMED
 Ever confirmed|1   |0

--- Comment #2 from helplibreoff...@mailcatch.com ---
The second to last paragraph in post #1 explains that even the original file no
longer causes the crash.  Hence the last sentence in that paragraph: "Truth is
stranger than fiction."

Consequently, the first place to look for the cause of the bug is what could
have possibly changed during the events: opening file via jump list caused hard
LO Calc crashes, followed immediately by loading the same file using the
Recents menu (successful), followed immediately by saving the file with another
name, followed immediately by performing the same action that caused the crash.
 No other steps were taken.

Additional info: spreadsheet was stored on a local drive, and not on a network.

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