[Libreoffice-qa] Reminder! QA Meeting on Wednesday!
Hi all, This Wednesday at way-too-early o'clock in the morning* we'll be having our next QA Meeting. For the agenda and pending ACTION items, please point your web browser of choice in the direction of: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Meetings/2016/January_27 If you don't recall the meeting start time in your time zone, click here: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?hour=13=00=0=27=01=2016 For a picture of a fancy-dress walrus, we've got you covered: http://img13.deviantart.net/541f/i/2012/110/4/8/fancy_walrus_by_jupiterine-d4wyosg.jpg If there are any bugs or problems that need our attention or discussion, especially anything big that should be raised to the ESC, please bring a list to the meeting or drop me an email. Cheers, --R * Here in the US, at least. -- Robinson Tryon LibreOffice Community Outreach Herald QA Bug Wrangler, TDF qu...@libreoffice.org 802-379-9482 | IRC: colonelqubit on Freenode ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
[Libreoffice-qa] Reminder: QA Meeting this Wednesday!
Hi all, Please join us on Wednesday in #libreoffice-qa for our QA Meeting: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Meetings/2015/December_16 Minutes from our last meeting are here: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Meetings/2015/December_09 I hope to see all of you there! Best, --R -- Robinson Tryon QA Engineer - The Document Foundation LibreOffice Community Outreach Herald qu...@libreoffice.org 802-379-9482 | IRC: colonelqubit on Freenode ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] REMINDER: QA Meeting this Wednesday
Hi Robinson Robinson Tryon wrote > P.S. Don't forget to bring the bug #s of issues that you think we > should escalate to the ESC. It's really important for us to be able to > point the devs in the direction of the issues that need prompt and/or > special attention. Bugs #96118 and #96119 need absolute priority. I know that there is a workaround using the cursor keys and enter but most users don't even know they can use a keyboard for that effect. As it stands 5.1 is broken for the common user. Cheers, Pedro -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-qa-REMINDER-QA-Meeting-this-Wednesday-tp4168654p4168723.html Sent from the QA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
[Libreoffice-qa] REMINDER: QA Meeting this Wednesday
Hi all, We'll have our regular meeting at the regular time this Wednesday (as regularly scheduled) in #libreoffice-qa on Freenode. If you need a quick refresher about last week's topics, the minutes from last week are here: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Meetings/2015/December_02 The meeting page for this week, incl. agenda, start time, and pending ACTION items, is here: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Meetings/2015/December_09 I hope to see many of you join us in the channel. It's always great to get input and feedback from so many of you. Thanks, --R P.S. Don't forget to bring the bug #s of issues that you think we should escalate to the ESC. It's really important for us to be able to point the devs in the direction of the issues that need prompt and/or special attention. -- Robinson Tryon QA Engineer - The Document Foundation LibreOffice Community Outreach Herald qu...@libreoffice.org 802-379-9482 | IRC: colonelqubit on Freenode ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Reminder: QA Meeting on Wednesday
Thanks for the information. But I'm subscribed to the list time ago. Miguel Ángel. Hi All, > BTW would be nice listen from the candidates their opinion about concrete > matters like this one. Should have suggested. If you're really interested in knowing candidates views on specific items you may want to email [board-discuss] list Warmest Regards, Joel -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-qa-Reminder-QA-Meeting-on-Wednesday-tp4167253p4167538.html Sent from the QA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Reminder: QA Meeting on Wednesday
Le 26/11/2015 17:00, Cor Nouws a écrit : Hi Cor, > In the early days, there was the meme that we needed good bug reports. > Then that changed to good sample documents; tThen finding the first > affected version; and now bibisecting. You forgot the "please provide a full backtrace with symbols" (yes, I have seen some of my backtraces declared obsolete because they lacked symbols) ;-) Not to mention that OS specific bugs, such as ones that are seen only on OSX, for example, often seem to have no bibisectable repo (there doesn't seem to be anything earlier than 4.1 branch off at http://dev-downloads.libreoffice.org/MacOS_Bibibsect/ Virtualy all, if not all, of the current font weight support problems on OSX seem to have appeared with the move to 4.1, so we would need a bibisect repo from 3.5 to 4.1 to even start looking at these particular regressions. CoreText work at the time is said to be the culprit (at least, that is the comment I have seen from one dev in some of these reports). Similar problems with access to complete bibisect repos on Windows exist, as far as my limited understanding of the problem goes. How are OS-specific bugs treated if there is no bibisectable repo ? Do they just pile up and get forgotten in a corner ? Alex ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Reminder: QA Meeting on Wednesday
Joel Madero wrote on 25-11-15 16:22: > Feel free to email the developer list and try to recruit developers to > do what you're asking. No one is stopping you from doing this :) Doing > it when many (most) of the regressions are not fully triaged might be a > frustrating process for all involved. There is a gradually growing number of regressions. Also bibisected regressions. I know the ESC has attention for this, and that the board recently approved projects/investments that are intended to help to change this trend. Pedro has a point that he doesn't like to accept the situation, and - learning from his contributions - he is helping a lot with good work here. Alas no ready to use solution from me today :) It's on my mind, as some of you may know from some grumbling mails that I send now and then. I expect to have some room next week to spend more time on thinking for this. E.g. the suggestion for positive stimulation, as mentioned also by Bjoern. Pedro: can you please ping me in a week or so? Thanks, Cor -- Cor Nouws GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 - 591A 30A7 36A0 CE3C 3D28 A038 E49D 7365 B134 80A6 - vrijwilliger http://nl.libreoffice.org - volunteer http://www.libreoffice.org - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Reminder: QA Meeting on Wednesday
Hi Joel, Joel Madero wrote on 26-11-15 02:31: > If QA members just bisected each regression (fully bisect) and > prioritized correctly I *honestly* believe that the regression count > would fall. I don't understand why this point is being ignored as it's > literally *completely* in our control. Sorry to say that I'm afraid that I can't support you in that believe. Not at the moment. In the early days, there was the meme that we needed good bug reports. Then that changed to good sample documents; tThen finding the first affected version; and now bibisecting. Don't get me wrong: I don't say that good QA is very important. But currently I think that doing proper triage on all partly triaged and unconfirmed bugs would only increase the number of unresolved regressions :) Ciao, Cor -- Cor Nouws GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 - 591A 30A7 36A0 CE3C 3D28 A038 E49D 7365 B134 80A6 - vrijwilliger http://nl.libreoffice.org - volunteer http://www.libreoffice.org - The Document Foundation Membership Committee Member ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Reminder: QA Meeting on Wednesday
Hi All, > There is a gradually growing number of regressions. Also bibisected > regressions. I know the ESC has attention for this, and that the board > recently approved projects/investments that are intended to help to > change this trend. > Pedro has a point that he doesn't like to accept the situation, and - > learning from his contributions - he is helping a lot with good work here. > Alas no ready to use solution from me today :) > It's on my mind, as some of you may know from some grumbling mails that > I send now and then. I expect to have some room next week to spend more > time on thinking for this. E.g. the suggestion for positive stimulation, > as mentioned also by Bjoern. > > Pedro: can you please ping me in a week or so? I would like to take part also - I've thought about a few new ideas that I think might work :) I won't be available until December 8. Almost any time (absent really really late to really really early) would work between December 8 - 10. Shall we aim for a phone call? Google hangout? IRC Chat? I'm happy Pedro brought this up as I think collectively we can come up with a solution. Best, Joel ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Reminder: QA Meeting on Wednesday
El 26/11/15 a las 2:31, Joel Madero escribió: > Hi There, > > On 11/25/2015 02:04 PM, m.a.riosv wrote: >> BTW would be nice listen from the candidates their opinion about >> concrete matters like this one. > > I would be surprised if there was any deviation for any of the > candidates - we've discussed this at length on the Board. Hell I just > brought it up today (saying it came up again in QA) and well, there was > unanimous consensus and hopefully one of the developers will write a > nice blog post about this issue to put it to rest once and for all. > Telling others what to do is not how we work. We have a strong culture > of "the doers decide" and the "doers" stick with what they "do" - thus > again, I really do think there is a solution here. "Telling others what to do", nothing is further from my mindset. For your words seems everything is cooked, then why do the voting?, expending resources and time. I don't care on to have the reason, but reach some kind of progress to solve a problem, problems don't disappear by saying not and looking for other side, usually only get worse. > > If QA members just bisected each regression (fully bisect) and > prioritized correctly I *honestly* believe that the regression count > would fall. I don't understand why this point is being ignored as it's > literally *completely* in our control. 01/08/15 - jmadero@...com "I skimmed this and really...this isn't how the team works. We don't have someone come and "insist" and "dictate" how we do our work. If you want then the best thing for you to do is "lead by example" and then if it works, others will follow." Please take in account for yourself. I can't find in bugzilla how many bisects you have done along the last year. The concept is clear, but why is a QA job?, collaboration it's a matter for two or more. I don't like the work flow, so wrongly or not I choose what to do, hope it is a right for everybody? > > Anywho, I like the spirited conversation I just don't see any actionable > item. I suggested that Pedro go track down developers to agree with him > but he quickly dismissed that (because he couldn't convince me?) and > asked Robinson or someone else to do the work of bringing up to the ESC. > The ESC has also talked about this at length and rejected it (on several > occasions). I've spoken with many of the developers who join the ESC and > all of them reject this concept of QA dictating what they do, or that > there should be any quasi-dictating by having "fix builds" or the like. > But again, it's not outside of any of your powers to broach the subject > yourselves on the dev list and pitch *concrete actionable ideas*. I never talked about dictate no one what to do, who am I for that?, but who choose what to do, must follow the project norms/rules or how you want call it, in fact there are rules. You can buy the car that you like or can, but you must follow the traffic norms. > > At the same time, I highly encourage thinking about compromise positions > - which I think I have actually given a good compromise. If we can go to > the ESC and say "look our QA team is frantically doing *comprehensive > triaging* and bisecting each and every regression, can you take over > now? That seems like a more positive way to move things forward. I have expressed some ideas several times, basically about if something can be done to prevent the bugs, but you and by your comments everybody has only an answer, all to the bin. So IMHO the ball is in your roof, but please clean from your mind that QA people, at least me not, are here for your , it's for the project. An example, one dev implements a new enhancement, a report comes in bugzilla, a QA person confirm and bisect, sometimes a lot of their free time for that, the dev patch the issue, also sometimes, with a simple change '>=' for '>', she/he is the Author, she/he has improved their stats, nobody knows/cares about the QA person work. And the conclusion is that QA must go behind devs begging for I don't know what, I have no words. Maybe will be better if you and who thinks like you, rethink about how the people can approach to the QA, without the option to feel that they are there only to clean the basket. > > Best, > Joel But I don't think into give up, fortunately some things are changing, as a much more significant attention to the help or the interesting discussions about more and better regular test, or even easier to see taking a look to last minutes of ESC. I'm feeling a bit happier. I hope sooner rather than later we find the space to propose achieve an ISO certification in a few years. What really would be a key for open a lot of doors. Miguel Ángel -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfounda
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Reminder: QA Meeting on Wednesday
Hi Joel, Cor, all jmadero wrote > I would like to take part also - I've thought about a few new ideas that > I think might work :) I won't be available until December 8. Almost any > time (absent really really late to really really early) would work > between December 8 - 10. Shall we aim for a phone call? Google hangout? > IRC Chat? > > I'm happy Pedro brought this up as I think collectively we can come up > with a solution. I am available in that period. Anybody who would like to contribute with ideas is very welcome! Personally I prefer IRC chat, since it is always available, it's low bandwidth and can be used at any hour without disturbing/waking anyone. We can probably meet in #libreoffice-qa Best regards, Pedro -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-qa-Reminder-QA-Meeting-on-Wednesday-tp4167253p4167535.html Sent from the QA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Reminder: QA Meeting on Wednesday
Hi Pedro, Le 25/11/2015 16:16, Pedro a écrit : > Hi Joel > > > jmadero wrote >>> A sugestion: maybe have a branch dedicated to bug fixes every other year? >>> Example: let's say 5.1 is dedicated to fixes. Then a slight change of >>> schedule would postpone 5.2.0 to some months later so that most devs >>> would >>> concentrate on 5.1 (of course new features would still be added to Master >>> in >>> this period) instead of being split by two concurrent branches... >> This is literally impossible. We would have very talented developers >> saying no way - then what? We cannot dictate (we can suggest) what >> developers do. If we tell Developers "pause all your work and go back >> and do just regression fixing" they respond with "no" and then . . . the >> end. > > Have you tried? Maybe some will say no (and they can continue to work on the > Master branch) and some may agree. > > Do all QA people say No when you ask them to have a Bug Hunting session? Why > would ALL devs say No??? > > Why is it impossible to have a Bug Squashing Session for devs? I bet some > would find it challenging to fix more bugs than the others. We call them hackfests, and there are some regressions fixed there. But as Joel said it has already been discussed, we are not a community who forces people to work on specific tasks if they don't want too. Instead we try to invite them, so any idea in this direction is more than welcome. > > Why is it "literally impossible" to have a fix branch? Has something similar > been proposed at the ESC meeting and rejected? Bjoern answered you on that topic already > > > jmadero wrote >> Then catching regressions before they happen is, as >> Sophi suggested, all about growing the community to do testing in Alpha. > > I'm all for growing the community and for doing early tests. In fact I do > very early testing for Apache OpenOffice (where each release is a regular > install instead of a parallel Dev install) Having dev installation allow our testers to chase until which version the bug exists. At the OOo time, it was the same, only from RC1, install was a production one. What we need is more people testing at the alpha and beta stage, we have very few people testing there and it let a too short time to find regression before the final version. But, we do not recommend to install the last version until the 3rd one, so we should find most of the regressions at that time. > > However if there is no commitment from the Devs to fix regressions then it > really doesn't matter at which stage you catch them... No, don't mix things :) I can assure you that none of our developers are happy with regressions. We monitor them closely. That's true that we don't rely only on the numbers as a regression might affect a very little number of people and in a very specific work - so it's a real regression, but it will have much less impact that one affecting hundred of people. The latter are monitored and attract the attention of the ESC and are escalated, bibisected then we invite the dev to have a look at it. If want to help in this area, we always need more people able to bibisect those bugs and try to find the responsible commit, let me know, I'll help you with the first steps. Cheers Sophie -- Sophie Gautier sophie.gaut...@documentfoundation.org GSM: +33683901545 IRC: sophi Co-founder - Release coordinator The Document Foundation ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Reminder: QA Meeting on Wednesday
Hi Joel jmadero wrote >> A sugestion: maybe have a branch dedicated to bug fixes every other year? >> Example: let's say 5.1 is dedicated to fixes. Then a slight change of >> schedule would postpone 5.2.0 to some months later so that most devs >> would >> concentrate on 5.1 (of course new features would still be added to Master >> in >> this period) instead of being split by two concurrent branches... > This is literally impossible. We would have very talented developers > saying no way - then what? We cannot dictate (we can suggest) what > developers do. If we tell Developers "pause all your work and go back > and do just regression fixing" they respond with "no" and then . . . the > end. Have you tried? Maybe some will say no (and they can continue to work on the Master branch) and some may agree. Do all QA people say No when you ask them to have a Bug Hunting session? Why would ALL devs say No??? Why is it impossible to have a Bug Squashing Session for devs? I bet some would find it challenging to fix more bugs than the others. Why is it "literally impossible" to have a fix branch? Has something similar been proposed at the ESC meeting and rejected? jmadero wrote > Then catching regressions before they happen is, as > Sophi suggested, all about growing the community to do testing in Alpha. I'm all for growing the community and for doing early tests. In fact I do very early testing for Apache OpenOffice (where each release is a regular install instead of a parallel Dev install) However if there is no commitment from the Devs to fix regressions then it really doesn't matter at which stage you catch them... Best regards, Pedro -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-qa-Reminder-QA-Meeting-on-Wednesday-tp4167253p4167365.html Sent from the QA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Reminder: QA Meeting on Wednesday
Hi All, > BTW would be nice listen from the candidates their opinion about concrete > matters like this one. Should have suggested. If you're really interested in knowing candidates views on specific items you may want to email [board-discuss] list :) Warmest Regards, Joel ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Reminder: QA Meeting on Wednesday
Hi There, On 11/25/2015 02:04 PM, m.a.riosv wrote: > BTW would be nice listen from the candidates their opinion about concrete > matters like this one. I would be surprised if there was any deviation for any of the candidates - we've discussed this at length on the Board. Hell I just brought it up today (saying it came up again in QA) and well, there was unanimous consensus and hopefully one of the developers will write a nice blog post about this issue to put it to rest once and for all. Telling others what to do is not how we work. We have a strong culture of "the doers decide" and the "doers" stick with what they "do" - thus again, I really do think there is a solution here. If QA members just bisected each regression (fully bisect) and prioritized correctly I *honestly* believe that the regression count would fall. I don't understand why this point is being ignored as it's literally *completely* in our control. Anywho, I like the spirited conversation I just don't see any actionable item. I suggested that Pedro go track down developers to agree with him but he quickly dismissed that (because he couldn't convince me?) and asked Robinson or someone else to do the work of bringing up to the ESC. The ESC has also talked about this at length and rejected it (on several occasions). I've spoken with many of the developers who join the ESC and all of them reject this concept of QA dictating what they do, or that there should be any quasi-dictating by having "fix builds" or the like. But again, it's not outside of any of your powers to broach the subject yourselves on the dev list and pitch *concrete actionable ideas*. At the same time, I highly encourage thinking about compromise positions - which I think I have actually given a good compromise. If we can go to the ESC and say "look our QA team is frantically doing *comprehensive triaging* and bisecting each and every regression, can you take over now? That seems like a more positive way to move things forward. Best, Joel ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Reminder: QA Meeting on Wednesday
Hi Pedro, Thanks for bringing this matter again at discussion, even some people is bored of it. Excuse is always on developers, but I have not appreciated such attitude at least with significant devs, even always there is some exception. There is not a QA work flow for the whole. The results are your conclusions, as I have exposed several times, specially new improvements are not properly, neither improperly, verified. Well maybe I forgot we have only obligations like to do a deep investigation about what test, instead receive an adequate communication about what needs our attention. BTW would be nice listen from the candidates their opinion about concrete matters like this one. Miguel Ángel. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-qa-Reminder-QA-Meeting-on-Wednesday-tp4167253p4167417.html Sent from the QA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Reminder: QA Meeting on Wednesday
Hi Robinson Robinson Tryon wrote >> Isn't 16% of Regressions something that TDF should be worried about? >> >> (713 out of 4419 open bugs, according to >> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-qa-Minutes-of-ESC-call-2015-11-19-tp4166818.html) > > I definitely would like to see that percentage drop, just as I'd like > to see our outstanding bug pool drop to at least half. As Bubli > pointed out last week, there is a certain amount of interpretation to > how we categorize and prioritize a "data loss bug": > "Loss of some 10k row sheet full of 2 years of scientific work data is > in slightly different category than, dunno, loss of text highlighting > in an article," so perhaps some of our bugs might need re-evaluation, > and/or we might need to consider regressions in a slightly different > light? Obviously there are different degrees of regression (but that is what the Importance fields are for). But regressions are a major source of aggravation. People expect consistency. This is true from software to restaurants. If something that used to work/be good looses function/quality then people will look somewhere else. Robinson Tryon wrote >> How can QA (Quality Assurance) and TDF motivate the Devs to worry about >> the >> consistency of the program? > > I think we're pretty consistent on providing QA/Bugzilla stats to the > devs, as well as searching-out some critical/widely-affecting bugs and > getting those in their field of vision. I think that QA is doing it's best (particularly on having new bugs triaged). I think what is failing is to convince the Devs that Quality (and possibly adoption of LO) is affected by regressions and long standing bugs and that some more time needs to be dedicated to that (however boring that may be... triaging bugs is not always fun, so QA people know about boring...) Now that Collabora has a paid version (by the UK government) which is a 3 year LTS some of these bugs might start to be squashed and contributed back to the Master branch... A sugestion: maybe have a branch dedicated to bug fixes every other year? Example: let's say 5.1 is dedicated to fixes. Then a slight change of schedule would postpone 5.2.0 to some months later so that most devs would concentrate on 5.1 (of course new features would still be added to Master in this period) instead of being split by two concurrent branches... Pedro -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-qa-Reminder-QA-Meeting-on-Wednesday-tp4167253p4167320.html Sent from the QA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Reminder: QA Meeting on Wednesday
Hi Joel jmadero wrote > That's unfortunate, we should talk about moving the time and/or finding > some other way to get dedicated people like yourself on live chat during > meeting. If the meeting could be one hour and a half later (14:30 UTC) I could make it, but that is probably too late for people somewhere else in the world? jmadero wrote >> Isn't 16% of Regressions something that TDF should be worried about? > I'm not sure what "worried about" really means. If a major issue was > resolved and the side effect is a minor regression, not so much. If > instead there are a ton of minor fixes that have created crashers, more > of an issue. I'd need a lot more information to adequately judge the > problem. I think that even minor regressions are enough to demotivate users. From a Quality perspective regressions should be a major concern. jmadero wrote > From QA perspective it's not our job to judge or dictate how developers > work. They are volunteers, and they should be respected like volunteers. QA people are also volunteers. Yet you are not afraid to suggest what should be done (reducing Unconfirmed bug count, bibisecting) and when (Bug hunting sessions). I think you are not disrespecting QA volunteers when you do that... Is it too much to ask that Developers are organized in a similar way? jmadero wrote > Before demanding a lot of other's time, I personally would prefer we do > our job as good as possible. Agreed. But since there are less than 500 Unconfirmed bugs (which might not even be bugs or could be duplicates) and there are nearly 4500 open bugs (out of which 700 are Regressions) probably it would have a higher impact on Quality to tackle the largest slice of the pie? Best regards, Pedro -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-qa-Reminder-QA-Meeting-on-Wednesday-tp4167253p4167334.html Sent from the QA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Reminder: QA Meeting on Wednesday
Hi, Le 25/11/2015 12:52, Pedro a écrit : > Hi Joel > > > jmadero wrote >> That's unfortunate, we should talk about moving the time and/or finding >> some other way to get dedicated people like yourself on live chat during >> meeting. > > If the meeting could be one hour and a half later (14:30 UTC) I could make > it, but that is probably too late for people somewhere else in the world? The issue was with me having the board meeting at the same time. The only day with no meeting currently for me is Tuesday, so maybe we could move it later that day? > > > jmadero wrote >>> Isn't 16% of Regressions something that TDF should be worried about? >> I'm not sure what "worried about" really means. If a major issue was >> resolved and the side effect is a minor regression, not so much. If >> instead there are a ton of minor fixes that have created crashers, more >> of an issue. I'd need a lot more information to adequately judge the >> problem. > > I think that even minor regressions are enough to demotivate users. From a > Quality perspective regressions should be a major concern. I agree, but some implementation need major refactoring where regressions can't be avoid. It's a balance between the two and also a sprint on finding them before a release. > > > jmadero wrote >> From QA perspective it's not our job to judge or dictate how developers >> work. They are volunteers, and they should be respected like volunteers. > > QA people are also volunteers. Yet you are not afraid to suggest what should > be done (reducing Unconfirmed bug count, bibisecting) and when (Bug hunting > sessions). > I think you are not disrespecting QA volunteers when you do that... > Is it too much to ask that Developers are organized in a similar way? That should be the same, and I personally think it's the same, ESC meeting are one of the way, regression tests, Jan mentoring are others and so on. No regression is introduced by purpose, it's a closed work between QA and development and a rush before a release. > > > jmadero wrote >> Before demanding a lot of other's time, I personally would prefer we do >> our job as good as possible. > > Agreed. But since there are less than 500 Unconfirmed bugs (which might not > even be bugs or could be duplicates) and there are nearly 4500 open bugs > (out of which 700 are Regressions) probably it would have a higher impact on > Quality to tackle the largest slice of the pie? Recruiting more testers at alpha and beta stages are imho the most important part to reduce those regressions. Unfortunately MozTrap doesn't get enough love from testers and we have few participants during BH sessions. If we address both, that should solve part of the problem. Cheers Sophie -- Sophie Gautier sophie.gaut...@documentfoundation.org GSM: +33683901545 IRC: sophi Co-founder - Release coordinator The Document Foundation ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Reminder: QA Meeting on Wednesday
On 11/25/2015 02:40 AM, Pedro wrote: > > > > Now that Collabora has a paid version (by the UK government) which is a 3 > year LTS some of these bugs might start to be squashed and contributed back > to the Master branch... > > A sugestion: maybe have a branch dedicated to bug fixes every other year? > Example: let's say 5.1 is dedicated to fixes. Then a slight change of > schedule would postpone 5.2.0 to some months later so that most devs would > concentrate on 5.1 (of course new features would still be added to Master in > this period) instead of being split by two concurrent branches... This is literally impossible. We would have very talented developers saying no way - then what? We cannot dictate (we can suggest) what developers do. If we tell Developers "pause all your work and go back and do just regression fixing" they respond with "no" and then . . . the end. This has been discussed on and off for years, it's a fine idea, impossible given our volunteer base and the way we respect that volunteers can't be told what to do. Again, if we go and bisect (fully bisect) each regression and add the developer who accidentally broke the feature I'm relatively sure we'd have good results. Then catching regressions before they happen is, as Sophi suggested, all about growing the community to do testing in Alpha. Best, Joel ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Reminder: QA Meeting on Wednesday
Hi Pedro, > It is impossible for me to join at the 13:00 but I would like to leave two > questions: That's unfortunate, we should talk about moving the time and/or finding some other way to get dedicated people like yourself on live chat during meeting. > > Isn't 16% of Regressions something that TDF should be worried about? I'm not sure what "worried about" really means. If a major issue was resolved and the side effect is a minor regression, not so much. If instead there are a ton of minor fixes that have created crashers, more of an issue. I'd need a lot more information to adequately judge the problem. > > How can QA (Quality Assurance) and TDF motivate the Devs to worry about the > consistency of the program? From QA perspective it's not our job to judge or dictate how developers work. They are volunteers, and they should be respected like volunteers. What we can do is the same that we could always do: 1) Narrow down the version where the problem came to be; 2) Bibisect/bisect -- CRUCIAL 3) Appropriately tag whiteboard 4) Appropriately deal with severity/priority. Beyond that, it's out of our control and stressing about how developer volunteers spend their time is not in anyone's best interestin particular if we're falling short on our side (specifically bibisecting). Finally, the only other advise I would give is raising the worst (and *fully* triaged) regressions up to Robinson so that he can bring them up during ESC. This is particularly useful when we can identify the specific person who accidentally caused the regression and try to see if they can fix it quickly. Before demanding a lot of other's time, I personally would prefer we do our job as good as possible. Best, Joel ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
[Libreoffice-qa] Reminder: QA Meeting on Wednesday
Hi all, Just a quick reminder that we have our next QA Meeting on Wednesday. Come say hi in #libreoffice-qa and bring your questions with you! Cheers, --R -- Robinson Tryon QA Engineer - The Document Foundation LibreOffice Community Outreach Herald qu...@libreoffice.org 802-379-9482 | IRC: colonelqubit on Freenode ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
[Libreoffice-qa] REMINDER: QA Meeting on Wednesday
Hi all, How's your week going? Aside from a few crying babies next to me right now, my week has been a bit rainy but pleasant. Luckily, you can't hear babies cry on IRC, so you should definitely join in tomorrow (Wednesday) for our QA Meeting in #libreoffice-qa on Freenode. Information about the meeting (including meeting time, current Action items, etc..) is here: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Meetings/2015/November_18 Notes from last week's meeting are here: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Meetings/2015/November_11 And here's a picture of a Walrus being very Walrus-y: http://miriadna.com/preview/walrus I'll see you tomorrow! Best, --R -- Robinson Tryon QA Engineer - The Document Foundation LibreOffice Community Outreach Herald qu...@libreoffice.org 802-379-9482 | IRC: colonelqubit on Freenode ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
[Libreoffice-qa] Reminder: QA Meeting this Wednesday
We'll have a recap of our BugHunting Session, talk about Bugzilla v5.0, and discuss all of the ACTION items that are pending. Current Agenda: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Meetings/2015/November_04 Meeting time in your local time zone: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?hour=13=00=0=04=11=2015 Have some new ideas? Bring 'em to the meeting! I'll see all of you on Wednesday! Best, --R -- Robinson Tryon QA Engineer - The Document Foundation LibreOffice Community Outreach Herald qu...@libreoffice.org 802-379-9482 | IRC: colonelqubit on Freenode ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
[Libreoffice-qa] Reminder: QA Meeting this Wednesday!
Hi all, Please join us tomorrow in the #libreoffice-qa IRC channel for our QA Meeting! https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Meetings/2015/September_09 Here's the handy-dandy link that converts the start time from UTC to local time: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?hour=13=00=0=09=09=2015 We'll be talking about testing some Bugzilla patches, tackling the mountain of UNCONFIRMED bugs, the upcoming conference in Aarhus, and more! I hope to see y'all there! Best, --R -- Robinson Tryon QA Engineer - The Document Foundation LibreOffice Community Outreach Herald qu...@libreoffice.org 802-379-9482 | IRC: colonelqubit on Freenode ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
[Libreoffice-qa] Reminder: QA Meeting this Wednesday!
Hi all, We'll be having our QA Meeting this Wednesday: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Meetings/2015/July_29 Please write down any topics you'd like to discuss, and we'll try to get to all of them during the meeting. On a relevant note, I know that many of you have been eager to make changes and tweaks to Bugzilla, so I'll be spending time this week on a project to make it much easier for everyone to contribute. Hope to see all of you at the meeting on Wednesday! Thanks, --R -- Robinson Tryon QA Engineer - The Document Foundation LibreOffice Community Outreach Herald qu...@libreoffice.org 802-379-9482 | IRC: colonelqubit on Freenode ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
[Libreoffice-qa] Reminder: QA Meeting on Wednesday
Hi all, Quick reminder that we'll be having our QA Meeting this Wednesday at the *earlier* time we tried out at our last meeting: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Meetings/2015/July_15 Here's the direct link to the handy-dandy when-is-it-in-my-local-time-zone? tool :- https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?hour=11min=30sec=0day=15month=07year=2015 Hope to see you there! Best, --R -- Robinson Tryon QA Engineer - The Document Foundation LibreOffice Community Outreach Herald qu...@libreoffice.org 802-379-9482 | IRC: colonelqubit on Freenode ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
[Libreoffice-qa] Reminder! QA Meeting this Wednesday on #libreoffice-qa
Info and schedule (including a handy-dandy link to determine the start time in your time zone) is here: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Meetings/2015/June_17 Bring topics to discuss, and we will! (Discuss them, that is..) Best, --R -- Robinson Tryon QA Engineer - The Document Foundation LibreOffice Community Outreach Herald qu...@libreoffice.org 802-379-9482 | IRC: colonelqubit on Freenode ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
[Libreoffice-qa] Reminder: QA Meeting this Wednesday!
Hi all, Just a friendly reminder to one and all that our next QA Meetings will be this Wednesday. Find us in the #libreoffice-qa channel on Freenode. For the time in your local timezone, agenda, etc.., see the wiki page here: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Meetings/2015/May_20 I hope to see all of you there! Best, --R -- Robinson Tryon QA Engineer - The Document Foundation LibreOffice Community Outreach Herald qu...@libreoffice.org 802-379-9482 | IRC: colonelqubit on Freenode ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
[Libreoffice-qa] Reminder: QA Meeting on Wednesday
Hello friends, This Wednesday will be our next QA Meeting -- join us in #libreoffice-qa on Freenode! Our meeting time and other important stuff can be found here: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Meetings/2014/December_03 Please be sure to bring any important bugs or topics to the meeting, so everyone can hear about them! Thanks, --R -- Robinson Tryon QA Engineer - The Document Foundation LibreOffice Community Outreach Herald qu...@libreoffice.org ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
[Libreoffice-qa] Reminder: QA Meeting on Wednesday (See updated time re: Daylight Savings)
Hi all, Our next QA meeting will be on Wednesday. I believe that most countries have switched back from daylight savings time, so the meeting will be held at 18:30UTC, which (for most of you) should be the same local time as our previous meeting. Check here to be sure: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?hour=18min=30sec=0day=05month=11year=2014 Link to agenda is here: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Meetings/2014/November_05 I'll give a brief summary of our Bug-Triaging Bee that was held at the University of Washington, and give an update on the Bugzilla Migration. Please bring any special bugs or questions to the meeting, as well as any updates/QA work you've been involved with lately. I hope to see you all there! Best, --R P.S. UNCONFIRMED bug count is down to 658! You guys are doing an amazing job! Try your hand at bibisecting: We've got 75 open bugs tagged with 'bibisectRequest': https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/HowToBibisect#Finding_bugs_needing_bibisect -- Robinson Tryon QA Engineer - The Document Foundation LibreOffice Community Outreach Herald qu...@libreoffice.org ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
[Libreoffice-qa] REMINDER: QA Meeting on Wednesday
Hi all, Happy Oktoberfest! This week we'll have our QA Meeting on Wednesday (same time and place as usual). Feel free to grab a beer (or other tasty beverage) and join our discussion of what's been going on in QA. Agenda and information is here: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/Meetings/2014/September_24 If you haven't tested-out 4.3.2 RC2 yet, please head over to the pre-release site, download a copy, and test it out. The RC will be available on the mirrors shortly: http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/pre-releases/ If you *won't* be able to make it to the QA Meeting on Wednesday, please feel free to send me any notes or outstanding issues. In particular, if there's anything that I should bring up to the ESC, please let me know before Thursday. Cheers, --R -- Robinson Tryon QA Engineer - The Document Foundation LibreOffice Community Outreach Herald qu...@libreoffice.org ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
