Re: LoMus 2012
Jan Nieuwenhuizen writes: Hope they get their act together eventually, since this is definitely nice promotion material. /me too; please update when there's a website with info available. I haven't seen anything besides https://twitter.com/#!/kyojindo/status/200967005380165633 And now there is the official confirmation http://concours.afim-asso.org/2012/ albeit terribly meager. Greetings, Jan -- Jan Nieuwenhuizen jann...@gnu.org | GNU LilyPond http://lilypond.org Freelance IT http://JoyofSource.com | Avatar® http://AvatarAcademy.nl ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMus 2012
m...@mikesolomon.org From: Thierry Coduys thierry.cod...@le-hub.org The jury wishes to congratulate you on your LilyPond open source software, that won the First Prize at the LoMus 2012 contest. A cheque or bank transfer of 2000 € will be sent to you by the AFIM w00t! Mazal tov to everyone! Belated (I was out yesterday) congratulations to all, especially Mike for pushing this! Excellent publicity and funding for improvements. Thanks Mike! Trevor ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMus 2012
On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 6:17 AM, m...@mikesolomon.org m...@mikesolomon.orgwrote: Begin forwarded message: *From: *Thierry Coduys thierry.cod...@le-hub.org *Subject: **LoMus 2012* *Date: *12 mai 2012 12:15:03 HAEC *To: *m...@mikesolomon.org Dear Mike, The jury wishes to congratulate you on your LilyPond open source software, that won the First Prize at the LoMus 2012 contest. A cheque or bank transfer of 2000 € will be sent to you by the AFIM. Could you kindly let us know if the following is the right postal address ? 1, rue Hurtziger 92110 Clichy France Please accept our warmest regards and don't hesitate to contact me for any further information. Thierry Coduys w00t! Mazal tov to everyone! Congratulations, everyone. Well deserved for very, very many reasons indeed. :-) Trevor. -- Trevor Bača trevorb...@gmail.com ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Fwd: LoMus 2012
Begin forwarded message: From: Thierry Coduys thierry.cod...@le-hub.org Subject: LoMus 2012 Date: 12 mai 2012 12:15:03 HAEC To: m...@mikesolomon.org Dear Mike, The jury wishes to congratulate you on your LilyPond open source software, that won the First Prize at the LoMus 2012 contest. A cheque or bank transfer of 2000 € will be sent to you by the AFIM. Could you kindly let us know if the following is the right postal address ? 1, rue Hurtziger 92110 Clichy France Please accept our warmest regards and don't hesitate to contact me for any further information. Thierry Coduys w00t! Mazal tov to everyone! ~Mike___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Fwd: LoMus 2012
m...@mikesolomon.org m...@mikesolomon.org writes: Begin forwarded message: From: Thierry Coduys thierry.cod...@le-hub.org Subject: LoMus 2012 Date: 12 mai 2012 12:15:03 HAEC To: m...@mikesolomon.org Dear Mike, The jury wishes to congratulate you on your LilyPond open source software, that won the First Prize at the LoMus 2012 contest. A cheque or bank transfer of 2000 € will be sent to you by the AFIM. Could you kindly let us know if the following is the right postal address ? 1, rue Hurtziger 92110 Clichy France Please accept our warmest regards and don't hesitate to contact me for any further information. w00t! Mazal tov to everyone! Graham's worst fears... If I remember correctly, we had two applications for the Google Summer of Code, and only one has been accepted under the GNU umbrella. Before dispersion fights start, it might make sense asking the other applicant whether an admittedly smaller sum like this might enable him to embark on his project or part of it. It would appear that the prize itself would be newsworthy for trying to convince schools particularly in France to consider opening venues for their coursework to make use of LilyPond, an enterprise that Valentin has previously undertaken with somewhat lukewarm results IIRC. Make a ponding of the award, and point to the contest site (if any) for the details. Like the awarded sum. I'd find it weird to flash numbers on our main website. Certainly a nice endorsal. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMus 2012
Hi Mike, Congratulations! (To everyone!!) Best regards, Kieren. ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMus 2012
On 12 mai 2012, at 12:37, David Kastrup wrote: m...@mikesolomon.org m...@mikesolomon.org writes: Begin forwarded message: From: Thierry Coduys thierry.cod...@le-hub.org Subject: LoMus 2012 Date: 12 mai 2012 12:15:03 HAEC To: m...@mikesolomon.org Dear Mike, The jury wishes to congratulate you on your LilyPond open source software, that won the First Prize at the LoMus 2012 contest. A cheque or bank transfer of 2000 € will be sent to you by the AFIM. Could you kindly let us know if the following is the right postal address ? 1, rue Hurtziger 92110 Clichy France Please accept our warmest regards and don't hesitate to contact me for any further information. w00t! Mazal tov to everyone! Graham's worst fears... If I remember correctly, we had two applications for the Google Summer of Code, and only one has been accepted under the GNU umbrella. Before dispersion fights start, it might make sense asking the other applicant whether an admittedly smaller sum like this might enable him to embark on his project or part of it. I wouldn't mind using it to finish my skyline work! That'll easily be five weeks of my life (around 1 000 €), and it'd allow me to focus on something other than fundraising... I'd rather keep the award for people on the development team, as it has been officially given to the people on the author's list on the website (that's who I put on the application). There'll be no dispersion fight. No worst fears. It'll be very simple. As agreed upon before I applied: 1) Within one (1) week from the timestamp on this e-mail, send me an e-mail letting me know if you have any projects that this could be used for. No need to write anything elaborate: I know you, I know LilyPond, and I know how hard it is to fix things. 2-3 sentences will suffice! 2) Give me an amount, in euros, that you need for this project. I'll dole it out accordingly and send an e-mail to the list letting them know what I did. Cheers, MS ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMus 2012
m...@apollinemike.com m...@apollinemike.com writes: I wouldn't mind using it to finish my skyline work! That'll easily be five weeks of my life (around 1 000 €), and it'd allow me to focus on something other than fundraising... Well, the agreement was whoever submits and collects, decides how to distribute, and I doubt anybody would be adverse to good skylines. Figure in another five weeks for dealing with requests for code documentation and another five for dealing with regressions, and you are not exactly going to end up ahead, anyway. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMus 2012
On 12 mai 2012, at 13:00, David Kastrup wrote: m...@apollinemike.com m...@apollinemike.com writes: I wouldn't mind using it to finish my skyline work! That'll easily be five weeks of my life (around 1 000 €), and it'd allow me to focus on something other than fundraising... Well, the agreement was whoever submits and collects, decides how to distribute, and I doubt anybody would be adverse to good skylines. Figure in another five weeks for dealing with requests for code documentation and another five for dealing with regressions, and you are not exactly going to end up ahead, anyway. This is not untrue... :) Bottom line - CONGRATS TO EVERYONE. This is the most prestigious open-source music software competition in the world. Get excited! ~Mike ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMus 2012
m...@apollinemike.com m...@apollinemike.com writes: On 12 mai 2012, at 13:00, David Kastrup wrote: m...@apollinemike.com m...@apollinemike.com writes: I wouldn't mind using it to finish my skyline work! That'll easily be five weeks of my life (around 1 000 €), and it'd allow me to focus on something other than fundraising... Well, the agreement was whoever submits and collects, decides how to distribute, and I doubt anybody would be adverse to good skylines. Figure in another five weeks for dealing with requests for code documentation and another five for dealing with regressions, and you are not exactly going to end up ahead, anyway. This is not untrue... :) Bottom line - CONGRATS TO EVERYONE. This is the most prestigious open-source music software competition in the world. Get excited! Well, I was going to send news of it around, but as of now, there is nothing to be seen yet: URL:http://concours.afim-asso.org/home.php. Hope they get their act together eventually, since this is definitely nice promotion material. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMus 2012
On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 12:51 PM, m...@apollinemike.com m...@apollinemike.com wrote: I wouldn't mind using it to finish my skyline work! That'll easily be five weeks of my life (around 1 000 €), and it'd allow me to focus on something other than fundraising... I'm ok with this, too! Let's see what others will propose, however. Btw, if anyone has trouble finding an issue that is both interesting to him and has appropriate size, i can come up with some project ideas. congratulations again, Janek ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMus 2012
The jury wishes to congratulate you on your LilyPond open source software, that won the First Prize at the LoMus 2012 contest. Great! Werner ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMus 2012
On 12 mai 2012, at 14:38, Janek Warchoł wrote: On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 12:51 PM, m...@apollinemike.com m...@apollinemike.com wrote: I wouldn't mind using it to finish my skyline work! That'll easily be five weeks of my life (around 1 000 €), and it'd allow me to focus on something other than fundraising... if anyone has trouble finding an issue that is both interesting to him, Or her. Just saying. Cheers, MS ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Fwd: LoMus 2012
On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 12:37 PM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: Make a ponding of the award, and point to the contest site (if any) for the details. Like the awarded sum. I'd find it weird to flash numbers on our main website. I think this qualifies for a news item - after all, it's *LilyPond* who won. Graham? Janek ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMus 2012
On 12 mai 2012, at 14:53, Janek Warchoł wrote: On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 12:37 PM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: Make a ponding of the award, and point to the contest site (if any) for the details. Like the awarded sum. I'd find it weird to flash numbers on our main website. I think this qualifies for a news item - after all, it's *LilyPond* who won. Graham? I completely agree. Cheers, MS ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMus 2012
On 5/12/12 4:37 AM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: m...@mikesolomon.org m...@mikesolomon.org writes: w00t! Mazal tov to everyone! Graham's worst fears... If I remember correctly, we had two applications for the Google Summer of Code, and only one has been accepted under the GNU umbrella. Before dispersion fights start, it might make sense asking the other applicant whether an admittedly smaller sum like this might enable him to embark on his project or part of it. The other applicant appears to not be a serious applicant. He has not even spoken up on -user or -devel to get to know anything about lilypond. I don't think he should be part of this equation. Thanks, Carl ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMus 2012
David Kastrup writes: Well, I was going to send news of it around, but as of now, there is nothing to be seen yet: URL:http://concours.afim-asso.org/home.php. Hope they get their act together eventually, since this is definitely nice promotion material. /me too; please update when there's a website with info available. I haven't seen anything besides https://twitter.com/#!/kyojindo/status/200967005380165633 which is also not too official. Jan -- Jan Nieuwenhuizen jann...@gnu.org | GNU LilyPond http://lilypond.org Freelance IT http://JoyofSource.com | Avatar® http://AvatarAcademy.nl ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMus 2012
On 12 mai 2012, at 15:55, David Kastrup wrote: Jan Nieuwenhuizen jann...@gnu.org writes: David Kastrup writes: Well, I was going to send news of it around, but as of now, there is nothing to be seen yet: URL:http://concours.afim-asso.org/home.php. Hope they get their act together eventually, since this is definitely nice promotion material. /me too; please update when there's a website with info available. I haven't seen anything besides https://twitter.com/#!/kyojindo/status/200967005380165633 which is also not too official. Hm. Taking a look at Pyo, the second prize, and speculating about its mindshare, I have the suspicion that LilyPond has more or less been the proverbial 500lb Gorilla in the contest. This is not untrue, but I think somebody submit PD to LoMuS a few years back, so it really depends. Cheers, MS ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Fwd: LoMus 2012
Janek Warchoł writes: I think this qualifies for a news item - after all, it's *LilyPond* who won. Graham? Submit to lwn.net etc; when there's something to point at. Jan -- Jan Nieuwenhuizen jann...@gnu.org | GNU LilyPond http://lilypond.org Freelance IT http://JoyofSource.com | Avatar® http://AvatarAcademy.nl ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Fwd: LoMus 2012
On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 02:53:58PM +0200, Janek Warchoł wrote: On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 12:37 PM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: Make a ponding of the award, and point to the contest site (if any) for the details. Like the awarded sum. I'd find it weird to flash numbers on our main website. I think this qualifies for a news item - after all, it's *LilyPond* who won. Graham? sure. - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMus 2012
On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 8:02 AM, m...@apollinemike.com m...@apollinemike.com wrote: I wouldn't mind using it to finish my skyline work! That'll easily be five weeks of my life (around 1 000 €), and it'd allow me to focus on something other than fundraising... Well, the agreement was whoever submits and collects, decides how to distribute, and I doubt anybody would be adverse to good skylines. Figure in another five weeks for dealing with requests for code documentation and another five for dealing with regressions, and you are not exactly going to end up ahead, anyway. This is not untrue... :) Bottom line - CONGRATS TO EVERYONE. This is the most prestigious open-source music software competition in the world. Get excited! Congrats to everyone, including myself! (isnt it the *only* open-source music software competition in the world? :-) -- Han-Wen Nienhuys - han...@xs4all.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
LoMus
Hey all, I've received a couple e-mails from colleagues and one nudge from Valentin about: http://concours.afim-asso.org/ I've been reticent about applying because the development community is rather diffuse and there isn't any good way to accept the prize money if we win. However, after having received now two e-mails from people who I respect a lot in the French computer music community, I think it'd be a good idea and that we should let institutional barriers stop us from applying. I'm OK with writing up the application (due the 29th) but before I do, people would need to agree on where the prize money would go if we won. My two thoughts are: 1) Use it internally on projects (i.e. we'd all agree that person X would get paid Z euros to do thing Y) in which case there'd have to be a money shepherd. I'd rather not do this, but I can if no one else wants to. 2) Donate it to GNU. I'd be good to set a precedent for this now so that LilyPond can apply to other software competitions in the future. Cheers, MS___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMuS
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 08:26:16AM +0200, m...@apollinemike.com wrote: On 27 avr. 2012, at 08:07, Graham Percival wrote: On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 07:09:39AM +0200, m...@apollinemike.com wrote: I'd be good to set a precedent for this now so that LilyPond can apply to other software competitions in the future. *sigh* I'll formulate my question differently. If anyone on the development team sends me an e-mail saying Do not submit LilyPond to LoMuS, I won't submit LilyPond to LoMuS. So... you *don't* want to set a precedent; you just want a quick answer about this specific case? I guess the general consensus is go ahead and we'll figure it out later. - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMuS
On 28 avr. 2012, at 09:15, Graham Percival wrote: On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 08:26:16AM +0200, m...@apollinemike.com wrote: On 27 avr. 2012, at 08:07, Graham Percival wrote: On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 07:09:39AM +0200, m...@apollinemike.com wrote: I'd be good to set a precedent for this now so that LilyPond can apply to other software competitions in the future. *sigh* I'll formulate my question differently. If anyone on the development team sends me an e-mail saying Do not submit LilyPond to LoMuS, I won't submit LilyPond to LoMuS. So... you *don't* want to set a precedent; you just want a quick answer about this specific case? I guess the general consensus is go ahead and we'll figure it out later. I *do* want this to work so well that it sets a solid precedent, but I think that a lot of times a ball can get rolling on a precedent with a quick answer about a specific case. I get the sense in a way that the precedent has already been set - if someone sees a cool opportunity (GSoC, LoMuS, whatever), email the list to call dibs if dibs must be called, make sure no one is opposed, apply, and do something fair with the money if money is to be gotten. In the GSoC case, Janek has $500 that he'll be donating to the organization in whatever way he sees fit. In the Lomus case, if that works out, I'll have 3000 € and will do the same. This seems like a reasonable way to handle this sorta thing. Cheers, MS ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMuS
On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 10:01:27AM +0200, m...@apollinemike.com wrote: On 28 avr. 2012, at 09:15, Graham Percival wrote: So... you *don't* want to set a precedent; you just want a quick answer about this specific case? I guess the general consensus is go ahead and we'll figure it out later. I *do* want this to work so well that it sets a solid precedent, If this is going to set a precedent, then I will say Do not submit LilyPond to LoMuS. I'm willing to go along with the current consensus only if there is the understanding that it does *not* set a precedent. I get the sense in a way that the precedent has already been set - if someone sees a cool opportunity (GSoC, LoMuS, whatever), email the list to call dibs if dibs must be called, make sure no one is opposed, apply, and do something fair with the money if money is to be gotten. In the GSoC case, Janek has $500 that he'll be donating to the organization in whatever way he sees fit. That is not what happened. Google is paying Janek $4500 directly. Carl is getting $500 for the project, which I guess he will spend how he sees fit. - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMuS
On 28 avr. 2012, at 10:13, Graham Percival wrote: On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 10:01:27AM +0200, m...@apollinemike.com wrote: On 28 avr. 2012, at 09:15, Graham Percival wrote: So... you *don't* want to set a precedent; you just want a quick answer about this specific case? I guess the general consensus is go ahead and we'll figure it out later. I *do* want this to work so well that it sets a solid precedent, If this is going to set a precedent, then I will say Do not submit LilyPond to LoMuS. I'm willing to go along with the current consensus only if there is the understanding that it does *not* set a precedent. What's wrong with the below being a precedent? It seems like a good idea that people have already rallied around in practice. I get the sense in a way that the precedent has already been set - if someone sees a cool opportunity (GSoC, LoMuS, whatever), email the list to call dibs if dibs must be called, make sure no one is opposed, apply, and do something fair with the money if money is to be gotten. In the GSoC case, Janek has $500 that he'll be donating to the organization in whatever way he sees fit. That is not what happened. Google is paying Janek $4500 directly. Carl is getting $500 for the project, which I guess he will spend how he sees fit. Irrespective of who gets the $500, it is the exact same principle as Lomus. Someone gets money meant for the organization and they can do with it as they see fit, which is what I'm suggesting above. It's actually a moot point w/ respect to precedent - I have a feeling that irrespective of what we call it (precedent, standard operating procedure, informal exchange of e-mails), what I suggest above is what will happen. The advantage of calling it a precedent is that we can write it up and put it in the CG so that newbs and first-time contributors feel empowered and encouraged to do this sorta thing instead of shying away because there's no history of it. However, I definitely don't want Lomus to get held up by the P word - I'm comfortable with saying that it is setting a simple Schmrecedent, where Schmrecedent is defined as something that is not a precedent but could eventually be. Cheers, MS ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMuS
On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 10:13 AM, Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca wrote: On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 10:01:27AM +0200, m...@apollinemike.com wrote: On 28 avr. 2012, at 09:15, Graham Percival wrote: So... you *don't* want to set a precedent; you just want a quick answer about this specific case? I guess the general consensus is go ahead and we'll figure it out later. I *do* want this to work so well that it sets a solid precedent, If this is going to set a precedent, then I will say Do not submit LilyPond to LoMuS. I'm willing to go along with the current consensus only if there is the understanding that it does *not* set a precedent. I don't want to start a thorough discussion about our policies - these are just my ad-hoc feelings: - we don't touch anything that requires legal/formal bodies (GSoC was fine because it accepted individuals) - if someone does the work and wins some kind of contest/grant, the money is his and he can do with it anything he wants (for example pay some developer privately to handle some Lily issue). I get the sense in a way that the precedent has already been set - if someone sees a cool opportunity (GSoC, LoMuS, whatever), email the list to call dibs if dibs must be called, make sure no one is opposed, apply, and do something fair with the money if money is to be gotten. In the GSoC case, Janek has $500 that he'll be donating to the organization in whatever way he sees fit. That is not what happened. Google is paying Janek $4500 directly. Carl is getting $500 for the project, which I guess he will spend how he sees fit. Huh? I get $5000 (of which i'll spend quite a lot on Lily development, either directly or indirectly), and John Marchesi, GNU admin, gets $500 and gives it to whomever he decides - in our case most probably FSF. cheers, Janek ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMuS
Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com writes: Huh? I get $5000 (of which i'll spend quite a lot on Lily development, either directly or indirectly), and John Marchesi, GNU admin, gets $500 and gives it to whomever he decides - in our case most probably FSF. Depends on whether he gets a different request on behalf of the project's mentor if I understand correctly. Anyway, the principal point of the $5000 was not to spend it on Lily development. The point was to make it possible for you to focus on spending your _time_ on LilyPond. For the course of the project, and for giving you a jumpstart to stay on the project. The project will profit by a) the work you do, b) the difference in Janek skills at the end of the project, c) you not being burnt out financially and emotionally by having to juggle other responsibilities in addition to LilyPond just for survival and CV reasons. So don't think of spending the $5000 on LilyPond: spend your time. That's what this is supposed to enable. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMuS
On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 3:14 PM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com writes: Huh? I get $5000 (of which i'll spend quite a lot on Lily development, either directly or indirectly), and John Marchesi, GNU admin, gets $500 and gives it to whomever he decides - in our case most probably FSF. Depends on whether he gets a different request on behalf of the project's mentor if I understand correctly. that's interesting, i haven't heard that we have some choice. Anyway, the principal point of the $5000 was not to spend it on Lily development. The point was to make it possible for you to focus on spending your _time_ on LilyPond. For the course of the project, and for giving you a jumpstart to stay on the project. The project will profit by a) the work you do, b) the difference in Janek skills at the end of the project, c) you not being burnt out financially and emotionally by having to juggle other responsibilities in addition to LilyPond just for survival and CV reasons. So don't think of spending the $5000 on LilyPond: spend your time. That's what this is supposed to enable. Of course. They give me money to enable me spending time on LilyPond instead of doing some other summertime job. The lucky thing is that my costs of living are currently quite low (since i'm living with parents, and outside of Euro zone). Thus, some/a lot of [1] money will remain - kind of a bonus. Since there are loads of things that i need in Lily, and i cannot code them all myself, i think i'll pay someone to do them :) cheers, Janek [1] depending on how much tax i'll have to pay ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMuS
Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com writes: On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 3:14 PM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote: So don't think of spending the $5000 on LilyPond: spend your time. That's what this is supposed to enable. Of course. They give me money to enable me spending time on LilyPond instead of doing some other summertime job. The lucky thing is that my costs of living are currently quite low (since i'm living with parents, and outside of Euro zone). Thus, some/a lot of [1] money will remain - kind of a bonus. Trust me on that: it is not particularly likely that by the time you stop contributing to LilyPond, the total worth of the time and thinking you will have put into it will be less than that. Since there are loads of things that i need in Lily, and i cannot code them all myself, i think i'll pay someone to do them :) Won't likely work: I don't think there is much of a difference in helpfulness you can get with money from most LilyPond developers. They do what they can anyway. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMuS
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 07:09:39AM +0200, m...@apollinemike.com wrote: I'd be good to set a precedent for this now so that LilyPond can apply to other software competitions in the future. *sigh* I'll rehash an old email. I know that some of us would like to get paid for lilypond work. But I'm leery of jumping into this topic for a few reasons: 1) lilypond survives because of volunteer work. I think we should be *extremely* cautious about anything which may jeopardize the amount of time people volunteer. 2) if we officially organize these arrangements, there may be currency exchange, tax issues, or legal issues that arise, particularly given the international nature. Who gets the money? How would it be distributed, if at all? How much loss to third parties is acceptable? 3) it's not going to be enough. Companies and government grants are where the real money for supporting programmers comes from; hiring just one person from individual donations would require far more users than we have. 1) VOLUNTEER EFFORT I'm referring to maintenance tasks here, not new development. I famously spend 10 hours a week[*] just keeping things running. Add in the bug squad, patch countdowns, building releases, reviewing patches, miscellaneous things that James does, etc, and we're easily looking at 30 hours a week just keeping things moving. [*] now 5 hours due to phd dissertation. That may sound like a lot -- well, it *is* a lot -- but other than automation like Patchy, I can't see how to reduce it. We could ignore all bug reports, abandon any pretense at avoiding regressions, stop having releases, eliminate any patch reviews... at various points in the history of lilypond, we've done all of those... but I really think we should keep those tasks going. How much does that cost? Well, if we wanted to pay people $10 an hour for those tasks -- which is probably decent for bug squad work, but ridiculously low rate for reviewing patches -- then we're looking at $1200 a month. For *no* new features or bug fixes. A thousand bucks a month just to keep things moving smoothly. We can't afford to jeopardize that. We need volunteers willing to handle those tasks. Some people aren't going to make a priority of seeking out monetary gain; they have good careers already. Other people might have crappy jobs or be students and would probably love to have a bit of extra financial benefit. I'm not certain how those people might feel about spending hours each week doing volunteer maintenance tasks if programmers were working for money. Personally, at this stage in my life, I'm more in the first group -- I'm (on track) for a good academic job, so I'm not too fussed about money. Also, I'm single and live on less than 500 pounds ($700) a month. But if a large fraction of development work was on a for hire basis eight years ago, I would not have gotten involved in lilypond development. So I think that concerns about jeopardizing volunteer effort with financial benefits for some people are very real. 2) OFFICIAL PROBLEMS If the lilypond project officially organizes/endorses sponsorships, are there any legal issues? I _think_ that as long as we treat programmers as contractors, the programmers themselves are responsible for filing taxes with their own governments... but I'm not a tax lawyer (much less an international tax lawyer!) so I'm not certain. What currencies would we accept, and which currencies would we pay out? Would we go with a specific tool (google checkout? paypal, despite any ethical qualms people might have with that company? etc) ? organize bank transfers within Europe (which are much easier than bank transfers within Canada or the US, and certainly easier than international bank transfers). This would open up a *huge* can of worms, and I don't want to deal with any of this crap. There's always the possibily of making / resurrecting the lilypond foundation (yet more crappy paperwork), or joining a group like the Software Freedom Conservancy. The SFC actually looks decent -- I recognize a bunch of names on their directors, and some of their projects are boost, git, inkscape, pypy, swig, and wine. But that would still involve lots of discussion, paperwork, and red tape. I know that some of you might think that's exactly what GOP is -- and yes, I've been thinking about proposing this in GOP 25 or so -- but right now I don't think it's a problem worth tackling. We have enough problems with staging / not losing patches / etc. Once we've cleared out those and have a smoother development process, I'm open to investigating the SFC more. ... ha! I mean, the whole point of GOP was to get the development process moving smoothly enough so that I could turn my attention to GLISS. I really, really, *really* don't want to mess around with official foundations at the moemnt. 3) NOT ENOUGH The only source of enough money to really make a difference -- to hire programmers on a part-time basis,
Re: LoMuS
On 27 avr. 2012, at 08:07, Graham Percival wrote: On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 07:09:39AM +0200, m...@apollinemike.com wrote: I'd be good to set a precedent for this now so that LilyPond can apply to other software competitions in the future. *sigh* I'll rehash an old email. I've gotten two different (I think) responses from Werner and Graham. I'll formulate my question differently. If anyone on the development team sends me an e-mail saying Do not submit LilyPond to LoMuS, I won't submit LilyPond to LoMuS. We're all the authors of the program, so if there is a person that does not want their work submitted to this competition, that is completely legitimate and I won't send it off. IMHO, it'd be a shame to not enter this contest - it is one of the most important music open source competitions in the world (probably the most important) and we have a strong chance of doing well in it. Cheers, MS ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMuS
Werner LEMBERG wrote Friday, April 27, 2012 6:29 AM I've received a couple e-mails from colleagues and one nudge from Valentin about: http://concours.afim-asso.org/ Aah, very nice! Yes, participating in this contest would be a good thing; and thanks for your offer to writing up the application. +1 1) Use it internally on projects (i.e. we'd all agree that person X would get paid Z euros to do thing Y) in which case there'd have to be a money shepherd. I'd rather not do this, but I can if no one else wants to. I suggest that *you* are the person receiving the money, acting as a representative and contact person for this contest. In due course it is up to you how to distribute the money within the lilypond development. +1 But it seems the closing date has passed - wasn't it 25 April? Trevor ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMuS
On 27 avr. 2012, at 09:33, Trevor Daniels wrote: Werner LEMBERG wrote Friday, April 27, 2012 6:29 AM I've received a couple e-mails from colleagues and one nudge from Valentin about: http://concours.afim-asso.org/ Aah, very nice! Yes, participating in this contest would be a good thing; and thanks for your offer to writing up the application. +1 1) Use it internally on projects (i.e. we'd all agree that person X would get paid Z euros to do thing Y) in which case there'd have to be a money shepherd. I'd rather not do this, but I can if no one else wants to. I suggest that *you* are the person receiving the money, acting as a representative and contact person for this contest. In due course it is up to you how to distribute the money within the lilypond development. +1 But it seems the closing date has passed - wasn't it 25 April? It's extended till the 29th. Cheers, MS ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMuS
m...@apollinemike.com wrote Friday, April 27, 2012 8:39 AM On 27 avr. 2012, at 09:33, Trevor Daniels wrote: But it seems the closing date has passed - wasn't it 25 April? It's extended till the 29th. Ah, good! If they needed to do that the chance of winning is somewhat increased :) Trevor ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMuS
m...@apollinemike.com m...@apollinemike.com writes: Hey all, I've received a couple e-mails from colleagues and one nudge from Valentin about: http://concours.afim-asso.org/ I've been reticent about applying because the development community is rather diffuse and there isn't any good way to accept the prize money if we win. However, after having received now two e-mails from people who I respect a lot in the French computer music community, I think it'd be a good idea and that we should let institutional barriers stop us from applying. I'm OK with writing up the application (due the 29th) but before I do, people would need to agree on where the prize money would go if we won. My two thoughts are: 1) Use it internally on projects (i.e. we'd all agree that person X would get paid Z euros to do thing Y) in which case there'd have to be a money shepherd. I'd rather not do this, but I can if no one else wants to. 2) Donate it to GNU. We already donate LilyPond to GNU, so I'd lean towards 1). There are several unsexy infrastructure projects (meaning that if, say, I chose to tackle them, I would slow down to a crawl) which might get sexed up in that manner. And there are several projects requiring a coordinated amount of heavy lifting which might get tackled with that kind of encouragement. One thing is the skylines stuff, another would be Guilev2 migration. Paying the prize out once a month without regression from that area passes will certainly be a strong incentive, and probably will collect more interest than one would have imagined. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMuS
Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes: 3) it's not going to be enough. Companies and government grants are where the real money for supporting programmers comes from; hiring just one person from individual donations would require far more users than we have. Not enough is better than nothing if we are not talking about _financing_ developments but rather rewarding them. And in that case this is not a question of sustainability, but more or less a question of agreeing on things that people will be glad enough to get done by somebody else to not hold a grudge. In other news, I have to admit being impressed so far by what our users are willing to give to sustain development at least from a single person. Yes, it would require far more users to seem like a fair deal for everyone: a few selected contributors pitch in a whole lot more than others. But then, of course, this is not so much different from the distribution of non-monetary contributions. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMuS
On 27/04/2012 07:09, m...@apollinemike.com wrote: Hey all, I've received a couple e-mails from colleagues and one nudge from Valentin about: http://concours.afim-asso.org/ I've been reticent about applying because the development community is rather diffuse and there isn't any good way to accept the prize money if we win. However, after having received now two e-mails from people who I respect a lot in the French computer music community, I think it'd be a good idea and that we should let institutional barriers stop us from applying. I strongly support applying. 1) Use it internally on projects (i.e. we'd all agree that person X would get paid Z euros to do thing Y) in which case there'd have to be a money shepherd. I'd rather not do this, but I can if no one else wants to. YES! I would suggest that if you do all the application bureaucracy, then you should also be the one to distribute the possible prize money. Cheers, Reinhold -- -- Reinhold Kainhofer, reinh...@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/ * Financial Actuarial Math., Vienna Univ. of Technology, Austria * http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/, DVR: 0005886 * LilyPond, Music typesetting, http://www.lilypond.org ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMuS
The form says: * In case of a collective work, I have been appointed to represent my colleagues. As a core contributor to LilyPond I hereby nominate Mike Solomon to represent the LilyPond project. Let's worry about what to do with money if and when we win. On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 2:09 AM, m...@apollinemike.com m...@apollinemike.com wrote: Hey all, I've received a couple e-mails from colleagues and one nudge from Valentin about: http://concours.afim-asso.org/ I've been reticent about applying because the development community is rather diffuse and there isn't any good way to accept the prize money if we win. However, after having received now two e-mails from people who I respect a lot in the French computer music community, I think it'd be a good idea and that we should let institutional barriers stop us from applying. I'm OK with writing up the application (due the 29th) but before I do, people would need to agree on where the prize money would go if we won. My two thoughts are: 1) Use it internally on projects (i.e. we'd all agree that person X would get paid Z euros to do thing Y) in which case there'd have to be a money shepherd. I'd rather not do this, but I can if no one else wants to. 2) Donate it to GNU. I'd be good to set a precedent for this now so that LilyPond can apply to other software competitions in the future. Cheers, MS P.S. Sorry for the last-minuteness of this e-mail: I had sent it from m...@mikesolomon.org and it didn't go through. I'll have to change e-mail addresses on the list... ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel -- Han-Wen Nienhuys - han...@xs4all.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMuS
Han-Wen Nienhuys hanw...@gmail.com writes: The form says: * In case of a collective work, I have been appointed to represent my colleagues. As a core contributor to LilyPond I hereby nominate Mike Solomon to represent the LilyPond project. Let's worry about what to do with money if and when we win. The exposure is likely to be the larger benefit, anyway. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMuS
Musical contest? Great! :) +1 On 27 April 2012 07:29, Werner LEMBERG w...@gnu.org wrote: I suggest that *you* are the person receiving the money, acting as a representative and contact person for this contest. In due course it is up to you how to distribute the money within the lilypond development. Mike, I think the same as Werner. It's your contest and you will be representing Lilypond, so you will get the money. It's fair play. If you give money to Lilypond, it'll be great :) Good luck! Łukasz ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMuS
On 27 April 2012 08:07, Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca wrote: *sigh* I'll rehash an old email. I know that some of us would like to get paid for lilypond work. But I'm leery of jumping into this topic for a few reasons: 1) lilypond survives because of volunteer work. I think we should be *extremely* cautious about anything which may jeopardize the amount of time people volunteer. 2) if we officially organize these arrangements, there may be currency exchange, tax issues, or legal issues that arise, particularly given the international nature. Who gets the money? How would it be distributed, if at all? How much loss to third parties is acceptable? 3) it's not going to be enough. Companies and government grants are where the real money for supporting programmers comes from; hiring just one person from individual donations would require far more users than we have. I think that each such contest should be considered separately - it depends on the number of such activities and possible income. I believe that Lilypond need some money and contests and grants are quite a good idea of getting them, don't you think? When earning for Lilypond results in slowdown in developing Lilypond, we should stop, but now - there was no contest, so no slowdown, therefore, no problem :) Łukasz ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
LoMuS
Hey all, I've received a couple e-mails from colleagues and one nudge from Valentin about: http://concours.afim-asso.org/ I've been reticent about applying because the development community is rather diffuse and there isn't any good way to accept the prize money if we win. However, after having received now two e-mails from people who I respect a lot in the French computer music community, I think it'd be a good idea and that we should let institutional barriers stop us from applying. I'm OK with writing up the application (due the 29th) but before I do, people would need to agree on where the prize money would go if we won. My two thoughts are: 1) Use it internally on projects (i.e. we'd all agree that person X would get paid Z euros to do thing Y) in which case there'd have to be a money shepherd. I'd rather not do this, but I can if no one else wants to. 2) Donate it to GNU. I'd be good to set a precedent for this now so that LilyPond can apply to other software competitions in the future. Cheers, MS P.S. Sorry for the last-minuteness of this e-mail: I had sent it from m...@mikesolomon.org and it didn't go through. I'll have to change e-mail addresses on the list...___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: LoMuS
I've received a couple e-mails from colleagues and one nudge from Valentin about: http://concours.afim-asso.org/ Aah, very nice! Yes, participating in this contest would be a good thing; and thanks for your offer to writing up the application. 1) Use it internally on projects (i.e. we'd all agree that person X would get paid Z euros to do thing Y) in which case there'd have to be a money shepherd. I'd rather not do this, but I can if no one else wants to. I suggest that *you* are the person receiving the money, acting as a representative and contact person for this contest. In due course it is up to you how to distribute the money within the lilypond development. Werner ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
