Re: secondary address on loopback
On Mon, 20 May 2002 06:08:46 +0300 Semion Lisyansky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would someone please explain me why when I add secondary address to loopback interface by either as a secondary or by ip addr add it does not add route entry in routing table? Why should it? For routes use ip route add This is equivalent to the older ifconfig and route commands. The first defines the interface (ip address) and the second defines routes. Unix doesn't try to infer routes from interface definitions. Sometimes the vendor boot scripts (e.g: RedHat ip-up scripts) do both actions, so it looks to you as an automatic mechanism. Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron c:\winnt secure_nt.exe Securing NT. Insert Linux boot disk to continue.. --David Brumley = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: pretty printing source code
Hi, Using code beautifier for Perl (in my case) called Perltidy (http://perltidy.sourceforge.net/) you can add the HTML option and get a very nice HTML page out of any code. I believe there should be things like that to other codes as well. shushu -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Muli Ben-Yehuda Sent: ?? 19 ??? 2002 22:56? To: linuxers, inc Subject: pretty printing source code Hi, I'm looking for a way to pretty print some source code into a post script file. Possible options: 1. use emacs' 'ps-print-buffer', which prints directly to the printer. Can I get it to print to a ps file instead? 2. a LaTeX package? Lyx support? groff? 3. source - HTML - postscript? Anything else? -- Mersday 27 Thrimidge 7466 http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~mulix/ http://syscalltrack.sf.net/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL mailing lists?
On Mon, 20 May 2002, Matitiahu Allouche wrote: Tzafrir Cohen wrote: No. The unicode specification specify exactly how a compliant implementation should display bidi (convert logical-visual). All implementations should be strictly compliant. If two separate implementations display the same sentence in a different way, then at least one of them is buggy. I have no intention to start a bout of Microsoft bashing, but you should know that there is a serious departure from the Unicode algorithm in Windows implementations starting with NT4(depending on updates), all Win2k and all WinXP versions.The problem is as follows: Given the string abc 123HEBREW where upper case letters represent Hebrew, the Unicode algorithm says that it should be displayed as abc 123WERBEH.However, Windows will display it as abc WERBEH123 (try this in Notepad for instance). Note that MS Internet Explorer displays correctly according to the Unicode algorithm.Also, the bug will not appear if there is a space between 123 and HEBREW. So HTML mail will be displayed OK, but text mail will be more problematic, right? This is relevant because you may receive in your Linux machine mail items sent from Outlook or another Windows-based mail program, and it may not be displayed for you the same way as the author saw it when creating the text. Also, on outlook-generated mail you may find that the HTML messages is actually practically explicit bidi because (at least in ms-word-generated HTML) Hebrew and English use different font settings. and therefore whenever an english piece of text starts, the font is modified, and the bidi directionality with it. Is this correct? Another result for that is inflation of the size of the generated HTML. But let's not get into that. -- Tzafrir Cohen/\ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]\ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign Taub 229, 972-4-829-3942, X Against HTML Mail http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir / \ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: gphoto2 usb problems
yeah, i have it mounted and it still doesn't work :o(. in fact i added an
entry in fstab with permissions 0666. then i unmounted (because it was
already mounted) and mounted usbdevfs.
what could have possibly changed from mdk 8.0 to 8.2?
On Sun, 2002-05-19 at 11:32, El-al, Netta wrote:
hi,
i upgraded from mandrake 8.0 to mandrake 8.2 and now when i run gphoto2
(for
my digital camera) i get the following error (even if i run it as root):
An error occurred in the io-library ('Could not claim the USB device'):
Could
not claim interface 0 (Device or resource busy). Make sure no other
program
or kernel module (i.e. dc2xx) is using the device and you have read/write
access to the device.
*** Error ('Could not claim the USB device') ***
Do you have usbdevfs mounted?
If not, try:
mount -t usbdevfs none /prob/bus/usb
=
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Re: pretty printing source code
From: Ishay Inbar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi, Using code beautifier for Perl (in my case) called Perltidy (http://perltidy.sourceforge.net/) you can add the HTML option and get a very nice HTML page out of any code. I believe there should be things like that to other codes as well. shushu You can also do that in VIM, see Syntax-Convert to HTML. It'll colorize the source code according to your color scheme, etc. Sagi = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Silly question: who stole my locale information
I would swear that I had he_IL locale information installed under /usr/share/locale in my former RH72. Now that I upgraded to RH73, it is missing, and I (quite shamefully) cannot find the rpm that contains it. Any idea? Dan. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: secondary address on loopback
Hello Oron, Nice to hear from You. The only thing I can say is that when I add secondary address to eth or dummy with ifconfig (not ifup script) it adds route entry, and only with loopback it does not. -- Semion Lisyansky From: Oron Peled [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Semion Lisyansky [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: secondary address on loopback Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 08:58:54 +0300 On Mon, 20 May 2002 06:08:46 +0300 Semion Lisyansky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would someone please explain me why when I add secondary address to loopback interface by either as a secondary or by ip addr add it does not add route entry in routing table? Why should it? For routes use ip route add This is equivalent to the older ifconfig and route commands. The first defines the interface (ip address) and the second defines routes. Unix doesn't try to infer routes from interface definitions. Sometimes the vendor boot scripts (e.g: RedHat ip-up scripts) do both actions, so it looks to you as an automatic mechanism. Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron c:\winnt secure_nt.exe Securing NT. Insert Linux boot disk to continue.. --David Brumley -- Semion Lisyansky _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL mailing lists?
On Mon, May 20, 2002, Matitiahu Allouche wrote about Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL mailing lists?: According to Unicode, the paragraph embedding level is computed anew for each block. A block is delimited by the start/end of text, and by Block Separators. There are no Block Separators within ISO-8859 code pages. It would be up to applications to recompute the direction for each line, or sentence, or paragraph or whatever units make sense for them. This was exactly my point. When you have a iso-8859-8-i email, what are blocks? If the mail reader and writer don't agree on the same definition of blocks, there can be problems. My bidiv heuristics are as follows: a new block on an empty line. All the lines in a block are given the same base direction, determined by the first character that has a direction in the first line of the block. If none of the characters of that first line has a direction, I use the previous block's direction for that line, and continue to the next line. These heuristics are necessary for sensibly formatting email (or other plain text) that might contain blocks of English text, such as headers, signatures, included code, and so on. I have no idea what heuristics Microsoft Outlook uses, for example. -- Nadav Har'El|Monday, May 20 2002, 9 Sivan 5762 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |This '|' is not a pipe. http://nadav.harel.org.il | = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Silly question: who stole my locale information
On Mon, May 20, 2002, Dan Kenigsberg wrote about Silly question: who stole my locale information: I would swear that I had he_IL locale information installed under /usr/share/locale in my former RH72. Now that I upgraded to RH73, it is missing, and I (quite shamefully) cannot find the rpm that contains it. On my Redhat 7.3, $ rpm -qf /usr/lib/locale/he_IL/ glibc-common-2.2.5-34 $ ls /usr/lib/locale/he_IL LC_ADDRESS LC_IDENTIFICATION LC_MONETARY LC_PAPER LC_COLLATE LC_MEASUREMENT LC_NAME LC_TELEPHONE LC_CTYPELC_MESSAGESLC_NUMERIC LC_TIME I don't see how you could have accidentally not installed glibc-common - it's a mighty important package... -- Nadav Har'El|Monday, May 20 2002, 9 Sivan 5762 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |What did the Buddhist say to the hot dog http://nadav.harel.org.il |vendor? Make me one with everything. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Silly question: who stole my locale information
On my Redhat 7.3, $ rpm -qf /usr/lib/locale/he_IL/ glibc-common-2.2.5-34 $ ls /usr/lib/locale/he_IL LC_ADDRESS LC_IDENTIFICATION LC_MONETARY LC_PAPER LC_COLLATE LC_MEASUREMENT LC_NAME LC_TELEPHONE LC_CTYPELC_MESSAGESLC_NUMERIC LC_TIME I don't see how you could have accidentally not installed glibc-common - it's a mighty important package... Please tell me what do you make of this - it seems beyond my grasp: ~$ rpm -qf /usr/lib/locale/he_IL glibc-common-2.2.5-34 ~$ ls /usr/lib/locale/he_IL ls: /usr/lib/locale/he_IL: No such file or directory ~$ rpm -V glibc-common .?. /usr/libexec/pt_chown = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Silly question: who stole my locale information
From: Dan Kenigsberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please tell me what do you make of this - it seems beyond my grasp: ~$ rpm -qf /usr/lib/locale/he_IL glibc-common-2.2.5-34 ~$ ls /usr/lib/locale/he_IL ls: /usr/lib/locale/he_IL: No such file or directory ~$ rpm -V glibc-common .?. /usr/libexec/pt_chown Just reinstall that package (rpm -Uvh --force glibc-common*.rpm) Sagi = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Silly question: who stole my locale information
From: Dan Kenigsberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please tell me what do you make of this - it seems beyond my grasp: ~$ rpm -qf /usr/lib/locale/he_IL glibc-common-2.2.5-34 ~$ ls /usr/lib/locale/he_IL ls: /usr/lib/locale/he_IL: No such file or directory ~$ rpm -V glibc-common .?. /usr/libexec/pt_chown Just reinstall that package (rpm -Uvh --force glibc-common*.rpm) Sagi This I will do, if only someone told me why rpm -V did not cry out loud about the missing files. (and how come they are missing, anyway) = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL mailing lists?
OK, this is a joke, right? On Sun, 19 May 2002, Tzafrir Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (and the alphabet you are refering to was relevant to the time people wrote with very primitive pens on very problematic paper. Non of this is relevant to pencils, and to printed materials. Let's leave this aside) Pens are much more flexible than chiseling on stone. True, when we standardize on electronic-only media, perhaps there can be even better alpabets. Let's keep the discussion focued, shall we? The ammount of legacy literature. Which can be reprinted. Hebrew computer literature may be lacking, but there are huge ammounts of existing literature. Even if you ignore the caltural aspects, the economic cost of the transfer, re-education etc. is huge. Uthe cost of solving a non-problem may well turn out to be grater in the long run. As a transition period, supporting two alphabets might be the correct way. But in places where there is very little support for the Hebrew alphabet, there would be little need to work around idiotic issues to hack it in. It may have been economically-resonable, had there been no alternatives. The Turks had alternatives. They did not do this for bidi problems. Surprisingly enough, the Unicode standard decided to support this greatest issue of the Hebrew alphabet: bidirectional movement. Yes. Had you known how ISO standards work (hint: consesnus. Israeli delegate probably vetoing anything else) and were you aware that ISO does not concern itself with ease of implementation (hint: C++) you would see this is a non-argument. This is a standard dated to the begining of the ninetees. Not to ancient history. It seems that us silly folks in Israel are not the only ones who think that the problems of Hebrew are solvable and should be confronted. See above. Even if we were, it'd be enough to get this into the standard. It costs less and takes less time to add decent and standard Hebrew support than to re-educate all the Hebrew population. (Disclaimer: I have done no such research, and cannot point to any research that will support this claim. Those are my own opinions based on my own knowledge) Considering there have been cases of a similar transition, your lack of research as to costs can only be taken to mean that you do not take this argument seriously. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL mailing lists?
On Sun, 19 May 2002, Nadav Har'El [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So basically, what you want us to do is to tell newbies Well, Linux IS easy to learn! But first, you'll need to learn a new alphabet first!!. No, you misunderstood. My rant went well beyond Linux -- Hebrew on Linux is just a symptom of a larger problem. We should fix this problem. as a culture. If there is anything stupid or silly here, it's not the alphabet - it's your opinion. It might be a great idea to change our alphabet, it's direction of writing, our language and maybe even our religion to fit better with the ways of the world Where the fuck did you see me mentioning anything about the rest of the world? I gave arguments why the Hebrew alphabet is intrinsically stupid. Linux hackers are in any position to do or even to suggest. Lucky, Linux hacker describes me partially. A memeber of the Israeli culture is also a facet of me. As, I think, of you. We can change the culture, or at least the bits which are iditotic. Linux hackers have to operate within the world that already exists Reasonable people change to fit the world. You know the rest of the saying... Political activists are the ones that should be trying to change that world. Many hackers are political activists. Join us now and share the software, anyone? = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL mailing lists?
On Mon, 20 May 2002, Uri Bruck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is false. You simply do not know the history of the Hebrew language and the Hebrew alphabet. Hebrew was never dead. It was used among Jewish communities. Nikud came into use during the 9th-10th cent. You think anyone would have bothered inventing it for a dead alphabet? Used inside closed communities does not really qualify as alive. And the Hebrew alphbet also serves Yiddish and Ladino, quite creatively. So? Should we post in Yiddish or Ladino? Or did you have a point? I'm a language professional, and you might do well not to post nonesense about things you know nothing about. oh, please don't hurt me mister language professional I'm weally weally sowwy Computers are supposed to serve us, not the other way around. And notice that my rant about how Hebrew alphabet is stupid did not mention computers. Learn to read. Or do language professionals learn only how to write? = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL mailing lists?
On Mon, 20 May 2002, Barak B [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry: the real solution is not to change to other Charset/Lang and so on A lot of ppl (include me for example) feel better in Hebrew, like Hebrew, and see Hebrew as the language as part of Jews tradition. Yes. The alphabet, however, is just stupid, and is a left over from a time when technology could not support anything better. Like English ppl still drive in the Left side (tradition) Great example! Do you have a map in your house? Please, go and have a look. No, really, have a look: what do you see? That's right boys and girls, Britain is an *island*. Many non-island places moved to driving on the right side when inter-country rides became more common, because it was fucking dangerous otherwise. The internet makes sure that at least communication-wise, no place is any longer an Island. And as we learn' from M$, LTR is not that hard to get Yes it is. MS's LTR has lots of bugs in it. Now with trolltech QT, GTK (10x to frilib) and mozilla q netscape (IBM israel) we see that to in *nix area. Have a look at Tzafrir's explanation on setting up Hebrew support. Just count lines. Some word to all of u on Hebrew support in Linux: Look ! i saw here that to connect to the INTERNET its much easy than to use / configure Hebrew: Sorry: but in any fresh new Dist, u have out-of-the-box Hebrew in X server. If nothing else, I configure support for connection to the Internet in less time than I configure an X server. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL mailing lists?
On Sun, 2002-05-19 at 22:18, Moshe Zadka wrote: On Sun, 19 May 2002, Uri Bruck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Hebrew alphabet also remained pretty much constant for the last 2K years, and is flexible enough to serve well three languages No, it remained dead and nobody used it in day to day. Because it is a stupid alphabet, optimized for carving on stone. There are many more problems with Hebrew's native alphabet than just RTL (which is itself a problem with smearing ink on non-electronic media, so it's not a new problem): it OCRs very poorly (there are only so many ways you can chisel), it sucks for cursory reading (ditto), it loses gobs of information (vowels). The alphabet is silly. Unless you believe there is something holy about it, I don't see the point with sticking with a design decision made 5k years ago and which only made sense with the technology at that time. Alphabets aren't designed to be easily OCRable or to have a high entropy; in fact, alphabets aren't designed at all. This is not an assembly language. Humans don't work like computers, and they aren't supposed to. Humans like variety, humans have the notion of art, humans make mistakes and forget things, and these are not deficiencies that humans have -- in fact, I think it's the computers who are screwed up for not being able to make mistakes and forget things, because it makes them so much predictable and boring. You analyze the alphabet from a very practical point of view, but the world just doesn't work that way. If the world was designed optimally, we would all be speaking one language, and we would be flying instead of walking. This delicate balance of good and bad, the imperfection that exists in every entity in the universe is what makes the world go on. How would you like to live in a world where every problem, need and desire is solvable and fulfillable instantly without any effort? Think about it. But boy, do I digress. I'd like to drive Uri Bruck's point home: Computers are supposed to serve us, not the other way around. You see, our alphabet and language looks the way it does for many more reasons than one can possibly contain in his brain at once: it has evolved for thousands of years and has been influenced by millions of people and events. Computers are nowhere in the equasion. They are our tool, and therefore we dictate their workings, and not the other way around. It is quite possible, and even likely, that computers will affect our language, since they already affect just about everything else in our lives. But they are not here to fold the human brain into a mathematical formula and alleviate our human lackings: we are a lot smarter than that. ObTopic: Don't worry, smart computer geeks will find ways to make the computer speak our language -- we're actually a long way there already. If you're intimidated by this problem, then work on other things for the time being, come back in a couple of years and you'll see how things are *much* better. If the Japanese managed to get *their* language onto the computer, we certainly can get ours. Lets not give up. The world is such a more interesting place for all the different languages and alphabets that we have. -- Alex Shnitman [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://alexsh.hectic.net/ UIN 188956 PGP 0xEC5D619D / E1 F2 7B 6C A0 31 80 28 63 B8 02 BA 65 C7 8B BA = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL mailing lists?
On 20 May 2002, Moshe Zadka wrote: On Mon, 20 May 2002, Uri Bruck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is false. You simply do not know the history of the Hebrew language and the Hebrew alphabet. Hebrew was never dead. It was used among Jewish communities. Nikud came into use during the 9th-10th cent. You think anyone would have bothered inventing it for a dead alphabet? Used inside closed communities does not really qualify as alive. According to whom? Please cite a source acceptable to linguists that supports that statement. And the Hebrew alphbet also serves Yiddish and Ladino, quite creatively. So? Should we post in Yiddish or Ladino? Or did you have a point? The point I made in a previous post. It's an alphabet that served several languages. Were all the users of those languages stupid? I'm a language professional, and you might do well not to post nonesense about things you know nothing about. oh, please don't hurt me mister language professional I'm weally weally sowwy Computers are supposed to serve us, not the other way around. And notice that my rant about how Hebrew alphabet is stupid did not mention computers. Learn to read. Or do language professionals learn only how to write? You used it as a base for your conclusions about how language should be used on computers - or haven't you been reading your own postings? So far your only argument was that the Hebrew alphabet is stupid. But that's not a real argument, it's just a mantra you keep repeating, and some statements about the history and usage of this alphabet which turned out to be ignorant nonesense. Hence, I see no point in replying to any further postings of yours. You don't want to use Hebrew - don't. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Thanks, Uri http://translation.israel.net = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL mailing lists?
On Mon, 20 May 2002, Uwe Brauer wrote: Tzafrir Cohen writes: On Sun, 19 May 2002, Nadav Har'El wrote: On Sun, May 19, 2002, Ely Levy wrote about Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL mailing lists?: month work maybe if you work full time on it day by day.. 2. Add an RPM of Hebrew Open Office. Voila, we have a WYSIWYG editor for the joy of the newbies. OpenOffice is an overkill for that. KDE3/gnome2 will give you that. OpenOffice will give you a (Marketoid speak) World class word-processor, now finally with Hebrew support on Linux Hello Ups, I have openoffice1.0 and I cannot find any hebrew or BIDI support, not in the settings not in the help. I thought such a feature would be introduced much later, canit read hebrew word files? Can you pls enlighten me? You are obviously reading ivrix-discuss and not linux-il See: http://www.iglu.org.il:8080/Control_Panel/Products/Squishdot/IGLU/1021546938/index_html (currently on the homepage of http://linux.org.il) or grab it directly from http://linux.org.il/pub/Hebrew/OpenOffice/ The format is still problematic, though -- Tzafrir Cohen/\ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]\ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign Taub 229, 972-4-829-3942, X Against HTML Mail http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir / \ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL mailing lists?
On 20 May 2002, Alex Shnitman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alphabets aren't designed to be easily OCRable or to have a high entropy; Yes they are. OCR is what your brain does -- only much better. Still, alphabets to gravitate towards easier differentiation, because it makes them easier to read. Again, the example is s and f -- isn't it nice to have them easily distinguishable? wouldn't you curse the font if you lived 500 years ago? in fact, alphabets aren't designed at all. It doesn't matter -- evolution works as well as design if all you care about is the end result, and you don't mind a little bit of mess. computers who are screwed up for not being able to make mistakes Can I interest you in a bridge? You analyze the alphabet from a very practical point of view Because (big surprise here) I use the alphabet for practical purposes -- communication and storage. If the world was designed optimally, we would all be speaking one language Because Hebrew speakers 100 words to describe snow? , and we would be flying instead of walking. There are many practical reasons not to fly -- for example, survival in cold weathers is pretty cool, don't you think? ;-) But boy, do I digress. I'd like to drive Uri Bruck's point home: Computers are supposed to serve us, not the other way around. Yes. But what both you and Uri are missing is: Alphabets are supposed to serve us, not the other way around You see, our alphabet and language looks the way it does for many more reasons than one can possibly contain in his brain at once: it has evolved for thousands of years and has been influenced by millions of people and events. Computers are nowhere in the equasion. They are our tool, and therefore we dictate their workings, and not the other way around. So is our alphabet. Don't touch it, it works would be a good idea if the alphabet worked. I pointed out a lot of bugs in it. ObTopic: Don't worry, smart computer geeks will find ways to make the computer speak our language -- we're actually a long way there already. If you're intimidated by this problem, then work on other things for the time being, come back in a couple of years and you'll see how things are *much* better. If the Japanese managed to get *their* language onto the computer, we certainly can get ours. Yep. Or, to put it more accurately, hey, people wrote *vigor*, surely geeks like solving technical non-problems = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL mailing lists?
On Mon, 20 May 2002, Uri Bruck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So? Should we post in Yiddish or Ladino? Or did you have a point? The point I made in a previous post. It's an alphabet that served several languages. Were all the users of those languages stupid? No, they used an alphabet they had to have anyway for other reasons (namely, believing it is holy) You used it as a base for your conclusions about how language should be used on computers - or haven't you been reading your own postings? I explained that it is currently difficult, yes. This is not the reason the Hebrew alphabet is stupid So far your only argument was that the Hebrew alphabet is stupid. I backed it up: vowel loss, bad differentiation Hence, I see no point in replying to any further postings of yours. Please, don't. You don't want to use Hebrew - don't. I want to use Hebrew. With a good alphabet. Idiot linguists like you make it harder, because you are entrenched in your antiquated positions, and fear that it will actually cause progress. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: USR 56K modems
Hmm forgot to mention that I'm looking for an *external* modem and it should be PCI, I already bought a ISA USR56K modem internal() and put it on my old P1 computer but it didn't work. Unfortunatly I *don't* have a ISA bus (bus right ?) on my newer PC... The reason I need a new modem is because I am currently using SM56K modem with motorola driver that works *only* in RH7.1 so I bought 7.2 for nothing (just installed few packages from the disk but they had problems...) and I'm interested to buy RH7.3 now but I know that it won't work (I think the kernel is responsible for this) and even if I won't install the new kernel I will have problems too. BTW do you think the ext3 fs should stop me from using the modem too except from the kernel ? Thanks ! On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:47:04PM +0300, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have just bought a 56K USR PCI from Ligad, after asking them three times to make sure that this is a Linux compatible modem. FWIW, I am using something called 3Com US Robotics (if I read the fine print on the box right, it is made by 3com, USR brand) 56K modem Model 5630 - just picked it up from a little shop in the main shopping street of Herzlia. It's external. I don't remember the price, but I do recall it didn't seem excessive to me more than a year ago. I did not invest much effort into modem hunting then. Just emphasized to the shop owner that winmodems weren't modems. -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] If it aint't broken it hasn't got enough features yet. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- a href=http://eg-site.tripod.com;Eliran/a The abortion rights and gun control debates are twin aspects of a deeper question --- does an individual ever have the right to make decisions that are literally life-or-death? And if not the individual, who does? -- Eric S. Raymond = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL mailing lists?
On Mon, 2002-05-20 at 15:19, Moshe Zadka wrote: Yes. But what both you and Uri are missing is: Alphabets are supposed to serve us, not the other way around You are right. My point is that diversity is part of humanity, and even though in many cases it doesn't make sense from a practical point of view, it still continues to exist, because we as people like it that way: practicality is not our only criterion. And as much deficiencies as you can find in the Hebrew language / alphabet, you cannot argue that it does not work -- it's spoken by millions of people daily, and wonderful books, poetry and plays have been written in it. Each language / alphabet has its practical problems, yet they don't deny its right to existance. Our culture, history and folklore is worth something, and there's no reason why we should shed all that and start from scratch. *Especially* not triggered by some minor temporary difficulties in implementing the language on a computer. -- Alex Shnitman [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://alexsh.hectic.net/ UIN 188956 PGP 0xEC5D619D / E1 F2 7B 6C A0 31 80 28 63 B8 02 BA 65 C7 8B BA = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Silly question: who stole my locale information
On Mon, 20 May 2002 12:56:23 +0300 (IDT) Dan Kenigsberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ~$ rpm -qf /usr/lib/locale/he_IL glibc-common-2.2.5-34 ~$ ls /usr/lib/locale/he_IL ls: /usr/lib/locale/he_IL: No such file or directory ~$ rpm -V glibc-common .?. /usr/libexec/pt_chown Looks like corrupted rpm database... weird indeed. Just reinstall that package (rpm -Uvh --force glibc-common*.rpm) WAIT! WAIT! This will destroy evidence and solve only the sympthom... 1. Backup your rpm database (maybe you'll want to investigate further) cd /var/lib/rpm; tar czf /tmp/mybadrpm.tar . 2. Rebuild it: rpm --rebuilddb 3. Than check all your packages (maybe other things miss as well and you haven't noticed yet: rpm -Va /tmp/rpm_va.txt This will take quite a while (and is a very good test of your hard disk BTW) Bye, Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron #define NULL 0 /* silly thing is, we don't even use this */ --Larry Wall in perl.c from the perl source code = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: X hangs and refuses to be killed
Thats remind me... sometimes X hangs, and when I try to switch back to a VC it doesn't or just show me a black screen with some gray little squares. Switching back to X does not work and the screen shut itself off after a few seconds, I can't even reboot using C+A+DEL only using the cold reboot button which then requires me to run fsck... Very strange... BTW I'm using a 17 screen and 1600x1200 , Is the resulution may be responsible for the prob. ? Thanks On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 08:50:23AM +0300, Yedidyah Bar-David wrote: Hi, On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 08:30:53AM +0300, Malcolm Kavalsky wrote: Boris Gorelik (by way of b g ) wrote: [second attempt. it seems that the first one failed. in case I'm wrong, please forgive me] hi, this is a strange problem: we have dual PIII with RH7.2 on it (as only OS). Today, while X was logging out from KDE session, I tried to swich to text console (by Ctr-Alt-F1), and X just hanged. The rest of the system worked fine. This problem has occured several times in the past, and the solution was to restart the X by killing it. So I looked for X (top -bn1 | less) and found 2 processes. One process was pretty regular, and the other was: 9351 root 9 0 00 0 Z 0.0 0.0 0:00 X defunct (I've never seen defunct note. I killed the usual X - didn't help, tried to kill 9351 by kill -s 9 9351 - no reaction. It's like 9351 has choosen to ignore the superuser !!!( ;-) ) google search for Xdefunct did not gave something usefull (I just know that some guy had such a problem. Tried to mail him - apparently there is no such address). My questions are: how is it possible that a process doues not respond to kill -s 9, is it possible to kill such a process anyway, what should I do in the future when this problem comes back, what will be the numbers in lotto in the next week and when will we sign pease with Syria Thanks in advance, Boris = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] From the man page of PS: Processes marked defunct are dead processes (so-called zombies) that remain because their parent has not destroyed them properly. These processes will be destroyed by init(8) if the parent process exits. So, you will only get rid of this process by rebooting. On the other hand, these process get no CPU usage, so unless you really have a lot, you can simply ignore them. That is not accurate; you should find the father of the process (with ps -alx, or better, with pstree -pul), and make it wait(2) to its son. This is probably *dm (kdm?), and you will have to kill it too, then its sons (including X) will be adopted by init, which will wait on them and they will die. If some other X session is managed by *dm, you will probably rather not kill it, but let the X wait until reboot (and report a bug to *dm authors). = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Didi = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- a href=http://eg-site.tripod.com;Eliran/a Never could an increase of comfort or security be a sufficient good to be bought at the price of liberty. -- Hillaire Belloc = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL mailing lists?
On 20 May 2002, Alex Shnitman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You are right. My point is that diversity is part of humanity, and even though in many cases it doesn't make sense from a practical point of view, it still continues to exist, because we as people like it that way: practicality is not our only criterion. I don't see any reason to use a non-practical alphabet. And as much deficiencies as you can find in the Hebrew language / alphabet, you cannot argue that it does not work -- it's spoken by millions of people daily, and wonderful books, poetry and plays have been written in it. Billions of people use Windows daily to create wonderful things, yet we still claim they should move to Linux. *Especially* not triggered by some minor temporary difficulties in implementing the language on a computer. For you it might be triggered by that. For me, it is one symptom of a larger problem -- and I don't want to fix symptoms, I want to fix the problem. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL mailing lists?
First, I have found a site which may be related: http://www.langbox.com/heb_e.html On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:49:33PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote: On Sun, May 19, 2002, Ely Levy wrote about Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL mailing lists?: month work maybe if you work full time on it day by day.. if you know how do tell me I would be more than happy to do it Ok. How about the following idea: make a (say) Redhat 7.3 based Hebrew distribution to called Redhat Ivrix 1.0, Redhat 7.3 with Hebrew, LinBrew, or whatever, like this: 1. Take the stock Redhat 7.3. This already includes some Hebrew fonts, and full Hebrew support in Mozilla, QT (e.g., Licq, KDE stuff). Some things are still buggy: this will be solved in the next release. 2. Add an RPM of Hebrew Open Office. Voila, we have a WYSIWYG editor for the joy of the newbies. 3. Add RPMs which will somehow cause the users to default to LC_CTYPE=he_IL, or en_US.utf8, or something like that, set the appropriate keyboard (English/Hebrew, no support for a third language in this release for simplicity) map by default, set mutt (and pine, etc. etc.) to work well with Hebrew, and so on. 4. Add a few more RPMs for available Hebrew software: fribidi, bidiv, hdate/taarich, etc. If we can find a few more free Hebrew fonts to stick in there, do it (I think we have at least the Elmar fonts). Add a HOWTO on how to use Microsoft's Hebrew font on another partition. I did something similiar + using the font in galeon it is here: http://eg-site.tripod.com/faqs/hig/hig.html it is in english but I'm willing to translate it if there is a need... 5. If you feel brave, also add an RPM for Hebrew TeX, some very initial (read: worthless) Hebrew spell checker, etc. I don't reallly think newbies will try to use (La)Tex, perhaps Lyx but latex ? If they don't really like to type in english, you expect them to remember the 'commands' of latex ? 6. Maybe add an antiword RPM. It's not Hebrew-specific, but somehow it seems Israelis need this a lot... There is Open Office right ? 7. If still have time in the month, try translating a few important HowTos, READMEs, or best of all: the Redhat installation software. Translate a few manual pages. That should be helpful. 8. If you really have time to waste, draw special Israeli backgrounds, logos, and things like that. Waste ? I don't think so. I know some people who can design some bg's and logos ... but is it really necessary ? What we get from this is a rudementary version of Hebrew Linux. People could install this (either you get special CD-ROMs with these RPMs, or you install them on top of a preinstalled RedHat system) and get some Hebrew support out-of-the-box on their Linux system. Some of the support will be buggy, some will be missing, and most of the system isn't translated yet. These things can be imporved upon in the next versions, if this is a continuing project (with RPM specs available) and not some one-time special Hebrew CD-ROM (like Tzafrir has done a few times in the past). I think that though people who don't know a word of English would not be able to use such an initial version, more ordinary people, people who know some English but are not comfortable with it, will be able to endure this version if some expert (or English speaker) helps them install the system initially. I have started working on this yesterday, but it's going very slowly because my knowledge of RPM building really sucks. I failed to even create an RPM of the sourforge fribidi even though it contains a spec file (yes, I'm stupid :( I'm trying to learn though). Tzafrir, you are undoubtedly our RPM expert. You did some specs and srpms previously. Where are they? Can we update them to the latest versions of stuff and collect a set of RPMs to make an initial Hebrew Linux release? Does anybody else think that this might be a good way to proceed? Or maybe it isn't? (see also the P.S.'s below before you answer) I'd like comments, and better yet: people willing to help me build RPMS :) P.S. The reason I'm suggesting Redhat 7.3 is because I personally use it and like it (and trust it), because it's cutting-edge enough to contain some new Hebrew features, and because it's a common distribution. I suppose the same thing can be done to Mandrake, Gentoo, Slackware, Debian, or whatever. I hope that the same SRPMs created for Redhat 7.3 could be used for Mandrake, but I don't know. Tzafrir? P.S.#2: Of course, when I say a month work I assume someone who has time to work on this night after night for a month. I unforunately have a few other things on my mind too :( P.S.#3: Basing such an effort on an existing distribution (such as Redhat 7.3 in my example) is very important in my opinion. Distributions have some huge burdons and responsibilities, not the least of which is to do
Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL mailing lists?
BTW for latex there is a editor called 'he2' very useful. On Mon, May 20, 2002 at 06:49:47PM +0300, Eliran wrote: First, I have found a site which may be related: http://www.langbox.com/heb_e.html On Sun, May 19, 2002 at 10:49:33PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote: On Sun, May 19, 2002, Ely Levy wrote about Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL mailing lists?: month work maybe if you work full time on it day by day.. if you know how do tell me I would be more than happy to do it Ok. How about the following idea: make a (say) Redhat 7.3 based Hebrew distribution to called Redhat Ivrix 1.0, Redhat 7.3 with Hebrew, LinBrew, or whatever, like this: 1. Take the stock Redhat 7.3. This already includes some Hebrew fonts, and full Hebrew support in Mozilla, QT (e.g., Licq, KDE stuff). Some things are still buggy: this will be solved in the next release. 2. Add an RPM of Hebrew Open Office. Voila, we have a WYSIWYG editor for the joy of the newbies. 3. Add RPMs which will somehow cause the users to default to LC_CTYPE=he_IL, or en_US.utf8, or something like that, set the appropriate keyboard (English/Hebrew, no support for a third language in this release for simplicity) map by default, set mutt (and pine, etc. etc.) to work well with Hebrew, and so on. 4. Add a few more RPMs for available Hebrew software: fribidi, bidiv, hdate/taarich, etc. If we can find a few more free Hebrew fonts to stick in there, do it (I think we have at least the Elmar fonts). Add a HOWTO on how to use Microsoft's Hebrew font on another partition. I did something similiar + using the font in galeon it is here: http://eg-site.tripod.com/faqs/hig/hig.html it is in english but I'm willing to translate it if there is a need... 5. If you feel brave, also add an RPM for Hebrew TeX, some very initial (read: worthless) Hebrew spell checker, etc. I don't reallly think newbies will try to use (La)Tex, perhaps Lyx but latex ? If they don't really like to type in english, you expect them to remember the 'commands' of latex ? 6. Maybe add an antiword RPM. It's not Hebrew-specific, but somehow it seems Israelis need this a lot... There is Open Office right ? 7. If still have time in the month, try translating a few important HowTos, READMEs, or best of all: the Redhat installation software. Translate a few manual pages. That should be helpful. 8. If you really have time to waste, draw special Israeli backgrounds, logos, and things like that. Waste ? I don't think so. I know some people who can design some bg's and logos ... but is it really necessary ? What we get from this is a rudementary version of Hebrew Linux. People could install this (either you get special CD-ROMs with these RPMs, or you install them on top of a preinstalled RedHat system) and get some Hebrew support out-of-the-box on their Linux system. Some of the support will be buggy, some will be missing, and most of the system isn't translated yet. These things can be imporved upon in the next versions, if this is a continuing project (with RPM specs available) and not some one-time special Hebrew CD-ROM (like Tzafrir has done a few times in the past). I think that though people who don't know a word of English would not be able to use such an initial version, more ordinary people, people who know some English but are not comfortable with it, will be able to endure this version if some expert (or English speaker) helps them install the system initially. I have started working on this yesterday, but it's going very slowly because my knowledge of RPM building really sucks. I failed to even create an RPM of the sourforge fribidi even though it contains a spec file (yes, I'm stupid :( I'm trying to learn though). Tzafrir, you are undoubtedly our RPM expert. You did some specs and srpms previously. Where are they? Can we update them to the latest versions of stuff and collect a set of RPMs to make an initial Hebrew Linux release? Does anybody else think that this might be a good way to proceed? Or maybe it isn't? (see also the P.S.'s below before you answer) I'd like comments, and better yet: people willing to help me build RPMS :) P.S. The reason I'm suggesting Redhat 7.3 is because I personally use it and like it (and trust it), because it's cutting-edge enough to contain some new Hebrew features, and because it's a common distribution. I suppose the same thing can be done to Mandrake, Gentoo, Slackware, Debian, or whatever. I hope that the same SRPMs created for Redhat 7.3 could be used for Mandrake, but I don't know. Tzafrir? P.S.#2: Of course, when I say a month work I assume someone who has time to work on this night after night for a month. I unforunately have a few other things on my mind too :(
Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL mailing lists?
On Mon, 2002-05-20 at 18:41, Moshe Zadka wrote: You are right. My point is that diversity is part of humanity, and even though in many cases it doesn't make sense from a practical point of view, it still continues to exist, because we as people like it that way: practicality is not our only criterion. I don't see any reason to use a non-practical alphabet. You don't need a reason to use it, because you already do. At this point you need a reason to *stop* using it. Apparently, the fact that it doesn't OCR well and the rest of the things you mentioned are more important to you than all the cultural and historical baggage that it carries, so much that you are willing to just dispose of that. That's the point I disagree upon. I suppose we can agree to disagree about this issue and close it at that. And as much deficiencies as you can find in the Hebrew language / alphabet, you cannot argue that it does not work -- it's spoken by millions of people daily, and wonderful books, poetry and plays have been written in it. Billions of people use Windows daily to create wonderful things, yet we still claim they should move to Linux. If Windows does their job fine, they shouldn't. There's no practical value in that -- you see, now you're going against your own principles. :-) -- Alex Shnitman [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://alexsh.hectic.net/ UIN 188956 PGP 0xEC5D619D / E1 F2 7B 6C A0 31 80 28 63 B8 02 BA 65 C7 8B BA = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL mailing lists?
On 20 May 2002, Alex Shnitman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You don't need a reason to use it, because you already do. No, I avoid it like the plague If Windows does their job fine Windows cannot do anything fine, because you give up freedom using it. Freedom is a *practical* thing. Or would you like my to lock you up so you can see how freedom is not just some abstract princple? ;-) = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL mailing lists?
On Mon, 2002-05-20 at 20:44, Moshe Zadka wrote: If Windows does their job fine Windows cannot do anything fine, because you give up freedom using it. Freedom is a *practical* thing. Or would you like my to lock you up so you can see how freedom is not just some abstract princple? ;-) Yes please, if you leave me a computer and my lovely DivX collection -- which incidentally wouldn't have existed if I didn't give up my freedom in order to create it. Practicality is in the eye of the beholder, apparently. -- Alex Shnitman [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://alexsh.hectic.net/ UIN 188956 PGP 0xEC5D619D / E1 F2 7B 6C A0 31 80 28 63 B8 02 BA 65 C7 8B BA = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
What people think of IGLU.
In Tapuz's linux forum, people are talking about the linux-il Hebrew mailing list discussion. I suggest for anyone on this list who is configured for hebrew viewing to check it. You should see what some linux users think about IGLU (They don't like it!). Please don't flame me for this, I'm don't have any connection to tapuz or to their linux form, I just thought people from this list should read it. Here is a link (The thread name is BEITAR): http://www.tapuz.co.il/Forum.asp?id=236 -Amir. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL mailing lists?
Moshe Zadka wrote: So? Should we post in Yiddish or Ladino? Or did you have a point? Far vus nisht? (Yiddish) qui en sapiense i entendiente ... (from e'had mi yode'a - Pessa'h seder - in Ladino) .. will undoubtedly agree that it will spruce up the list and make it interesting to non Linux people (wasn't that one of the reasons to switch to Hebrew?). But... this is a Linux list, not a linguistic advocacy list. Arie Folger -- It is absurd to seek to give an account of the matter to a man who cannot himself give an account of anything; for insofar as he is already like this, such a man is no better than a vegetable. -- Book IV of Aristotle's Metaphysics = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL mailing lists? - OT
On Monday 20 May 2002 07:40, Alex Shnitman wrote: No, it remained dead and nobody used it in day to day. Because it is a stupid alphabet, optimized for carving on stone. You are obviously unaware of the large amount of literatue that was written in Hebrew over the was 2000 years. In fact, most of our literarture was written during that period. As far as optimized for carving stone, you are wrong. Ancient ktav 'Ivri was optimized for carving stone, not the more modern ktav Ashurit from which all current Alephbet fonts derive. This is getting way way off topic; let's concentrate of Linux stuff, please. If the great majority wants Hebrew on the list (I prefer English) let's have it. The list is meant to serve the people, not the other way around. Arie Folger -- It is absurd to seek to give an account of the matter to a man who cannot himself give an account of anything; for insofar as he is already like this, such a man is no better than a vegetable. -- Book IV of Aristotle's Metaphysics = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL mailing lists?
On Sunday 19 May 2002 23:14, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: KDE3/gnome2 will give you that. when nadav will finish his project, they will be usable ;) I did managed to write my mothers resume in kword, printing it, and I could fax it to others, but for big documents, I doubt it been good. BTW: can I fax from oo? Again: Mandrake's installer already does that, if you choose Israel installation. I'm not sure about redhat. Some difaults may have to be re-visited. For instance: the fact that Mandrake 8.1 defaluted to loading KDE2 with the charset ISO-8859-8, and KDE happily crashed because of that. yes, but if you look at mdk8.1 kde2.2.1 startkde script you will see that they check it, and revert to iso8859-1 for bypassing that bug. very initial (read: worthless) Hebrew spell checker, etc. what's the problem? looking for words? I have an idea: rip them from the *.po files which meni did, look for one word translations and get the hebrew equivalent, so you have translation, but that is not needed, in this case so just look for hebrew words in those file. a simple perl could do it. and it is gpl. - diego -- Remember that as a teenager you are in the last stage of your life when you will be happy to hear that the phone is for you. -- Fran Lebowitz, Social Studies = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Remote Red hat upgrade
On Sunday 19 May 2002 10:28, Shachar Shemesh wrote: releases? What is the procedure? For example, why can't up2date be used to upgrade RedHat 7.2 to 7.3? because then you will not have to purchase a new distro every 6 months or so. If it was possible, then you had to buy a linux distro only once, and then what will mdk or rh will live from? ms is doing it with their OS, some say even they plant bugs, or at least, barriers from which the software can not be updated easly then forcing the user upgrading a distro. Note that this is only my opinion, and I do not base it on anything other then my own wild imagination. - diego. -- Nurse Donna:Oh, Groucho, I'm afraid I'm gonna wind up an old maid. Groucho:Well, bring her in and we'll wind her up together. Nurse Donna:Do you believe in computer dating? Groucho:Only if the computers really love each other. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL mailing lists?
On Mon, May 20, 2002, Diego Iastrubni wrote about Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL
mailing lists?:
On Sunday 19 May 2002 23:14, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
KDE3/gnome2 will give you that.
when nadav will finish his project, they will be usable ;)
My project? No, the QT/KDE/Gnome/Pango guys are doing great work, much better
(and much more) than I have ever done in this area. KDE 3 and QT 3 are
already available on new worldwide distributions (such as the Redhat 7.3
I use) and I had nothing to do with that. Some of the stuff there is great.
For example I now use licq to send and read Hebrew messages, and it works
really great, thanks to Lars (I think) who bidi-ized the QT widgets.
Just run
setxkbmap -compat group_led -symbols
us(pc101)+il+group(shift_toggle)+group(switch)
To get a Hebrew keymap when you press the two shift keys (or temporary
Hebrew when you press the AltGR), and set
export LC_CTYPE=he_IL
before running licq.
Maybe KDE has some way to automate this, but I wouldn't know because I
never actually used KDE (I'm not kidding...).
So please don't give me credit that belongs to other people.
I did managed to write my mothers resume in kword, printing it, and I could
fax it to others, but for big documents, I doubt it been good. BTW: can I fax
from oo?
I suppose you can fax any postscript document (there's a gs driver to convert
postscript to fax, and I assume modern distributions have an easy way to do
that but I never tried), and OpenOffice can generate Postscript (as well as
PDF, and other formats).
very initial (read: worthless) Hebrew spell checker, etc.
what's the problem? looking for words? I have an idea:
rip them from the *.po files which meni did, look for one word translations
and get the hebrew equivalent, so you have translation, but that is not
needed, in this case so just look for hebrew words in those file. a simple
perl could do it. and it is gpl.
Please read the ivrix-discuss archives on why it isn't so simple. In Hebrew,
base words (nouns, verbs) have dozens of different conjugations (hatayot),
binyanim, etc. etc., so making a word list by collecting words from articles
or online newspapers and so on, is likely to yeild a very incomplete wordlist,
and worse: an inconsistent one, because of Hebrew's annoying and inconsistent
spelling rules (ktiv maleh, ktiv chaser - MosheZ: you can have a field-day
with this!).
So there are two directions to go:
1. Write a program to take a conjugated word, find its presumed stem word,
and then check that in the dictionary of stem words.
This approach is hard to connect with wordlist based spellcheckers like
ispell/aspell.
2. Write a program that takes stem words and rules (which binyanim a shoresh
can take, how to make a certain noun plural, etc.). This generates a
wordlist that can be used by ispell/aspell (if we solved some annoying
problems we had). This approach is made easier by the fact that we intend
to provide a spelling list of words without Nikud, but it is still not
easy.
Dan Kenigsberg and yours truely started working on this project, but after
some progress (i.e., handling only part of the cases in the Hebrew languages)
it somehow stagnated. I hope we'll return to it one day, because it was
actually a very interesting project - you should have seen me, sitting with
a pile of grammar books, dictionaries, word lists, etc. I actually went and
bought myself a copy of the luach hashemot hashalem, would you believe that?
I think working on such a project could make even MosheZ love the Hebrew
language ;)
--
Nadav Har'El| Monday, May 20 2002, 10 Sivan 5762
[EMAIL PROTECTED] |-
Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |:(){ :|:};: # DANGER: DO NOT run this,
http://nadav.harel.org.il |unless you REALLY know what you're doing!
=
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Re: What people think of IGLU.
On Mon, May 20, 2002, Amir Hardon wrote about What people think of IGLU.: You should see what some linux users think about IGLU (They don't like it!). Here is a link (The thread name is BEITAR): http://www.tapuz.co.il/Forum.asp?id=236 Thanks for pointing us to that vile thread. Linux-il might have its faults - high volume, high level of chatter (like this :)), a few (but not many!) annoying people, and so on, but most of what these people wrote is extremely unfair, and based mostly on ignorance and paranoia. Linux-il started years ago, when there was no Hebrew on the net so the choice of the English language was natural, and not some elitistic attempts to keep the proletariat out. People who really followed the list would have seen that many people's questions were given very serious and helpful answers (I know that I've gotten a few thank you! notes for my answers), useful code was written (e.g., Mulix and Dani Arbel's ADSL stuff, my sendsms) that is now used by many linuxers, dozens of Linux lectures were organized (and not only idle meetings in coffee-shops, though we had these things too), and readers of the list who were willing to learn (and not just subscribe, ask, be answered, unsubscribe, Wham, Bam, Thank you Mam!-style) might have actually learned a lot of useful tips, pieces of trivia, and once in a while even some interesting articles. The people on that Tapuz Forum thread, especially Doron Ofek, continue a long and shameful tradition in the world, that of xenophobia, the fear of the outsiders. He seems to feel they cannot have a thriving community without putting down the alternative community (linux-il), claiming that they are all worthless and evil, blaming all faults in the Land-of-Linux on the other group, and even suggesting that their home (linux.org.il) should be taken away from there, for the greater good (read: his forum's good). I think that is really shameful. I thought that the Free Software spirit was about accepting the other, cherishing diversity, believing in live and let live. Somehow Doron Ofek and a few of his friends have lost that spirit. You may not like linux-il, you may even hate it. But this doesn't give you the moral right to open a smear campaign against it. -- Nadav Har'El| Monday, May 20 2002, 10 Sivan 5762 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |The 3 stages of sex: Tri-weekly, try http://nadav.harel.org.il |weekly, try weakly. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What people think of IGLU.
What I see is a small bunch of people who want to have everything made for them and don't bother learning another language. I wonder if they erver bother reading the posting guidelines or read the archives before they write something. At 21:32 20/05/2002 +0300, Amir Hardon wrote: In Tapuz's linux forum, people are talking about the linux-il Hebrew mailing list discussion. I suggest for anyone on this list who is configured for hebrew viewing to check it. You should see what some linux users think about IGLU (They don't like it!). Please don't flame me for this, I'm don't have any connection to tapuz or to their linux form, I just thought people from this list should read it. Here is a link (The thread name is BEITAR): http://www.tapuz.co.il/Forum.asp?id=236 -Amir. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mouse suddenly off center
Hi, My beloved laptop is afflicted with a new disease (bug), never noticed before upgrading to RH7.3+KDE3.0.1, and I don't know what to blame. Sometimes, as I am working and X is on, the mouse pointer suddenly ceases to represent the actual coordinates of this critter (actually, it's a touchpad), and is about 1.5 cm to the left of it's actual, invisible location. Today I paid special attention to this problem and noticed that * gpm was not affected; in console mode the mouse was doing just fine * restarting X didn't help * deleting (uhm, backing up) ~/.kde/ did not help * running qtconfig turned up no interesting info * warm rebooting did not help * only a cold reboot helped Does this sound familiar? The fact that warm rebooting did not help points to a hardware problem, but why now? And why is gpm not behaving badly? Your help is truly appreciated, Arie Folger -- It is absurd to seek to give an account of the matter to a man who cannot himself give an account of anything; for insofar as he is already like this, such a man is no better than a vegetable. -- Book IV of Aristotle's Metaphysics = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mouse suddenly off center
I have the exact same problem on my compaq laptop. I've seen various reports about it on the web, but I have no idea why it occurs, sorry. Alexander Maryanovsky. At 18:25 5/20/2002 -0400, Arie Folger wrote: Hi, My beloved laptop is afflicted with a new disease (bug), never noticed before upgrading to RH7.3+KDE3.0.1, and I don't know what to blame. Sometimes, as I am working and X is on, the mouse pointer suddenly ceases to represent the actual coordinates of this critter (actually, it's a touchpad), and is about 1.5 cm to the left of it's actual, invisible location. Today I paid special attention to this problem and noticed that * gpm was not affected; in console mode the mouse was doing just fine * restarting X didn't help * deleting (uhm, backing up) ~/.kde/ did not help * running qtconfig turned up no interesting info * warm rebooting did not help * only a cold reboot helped Does this sound familiar? The fact that warm rebooting did not help points to a hardware problem, but why now? And why is gpm not behaving badly? Your help is truly appreciated, Arie Folger -- It is absurd to seek to give an account of the matter to a man who cannot himself give an account of anything; for insofar as he is already like this, such a man is no better than a vegetable. -- Book IV of Aristotle's Metaphysics = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: mouse suddenly off center
Well, from the details you gave, it might be reasonable to assume that the problem is related to hardware cursor handling.. You did not state what driver you are using for X display... So the general advice would be to disable hardware cursor handling in your XF86Config and see if it helps in any way. I might be completely off, of course, but it's worth a shot. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: official hebrew in Linux-IL mailing lists?
Nadav Har'El [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In Hebrew, base words (nouns, verbs) have dozens of different conjugations (hatayot), binyanim, etc. etc., so making a word list by collecting words from articles or online newspapers and so on, is likely to yeild a very incomplete wordlist, How do, say, Russians do it? Russian has numerous and very complicated rules for cases and conjugations etc, and on top of that Russians are very fond of forming words by adding numerous suffixes and prefixes to the root. Maybe there is something to be learned from there? -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] If it aint't broken it hasn't got enough features yet. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mouse suddenly off center
Arie Folger [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: upgrading to RH7.3+KDE3.0.1, and I don't know what to blame. Sometimes, as I am working and X is on, the mouse pointer suddenly ceases to represent the actual coordinates of this critter (actually, it's a touchpad), and is about 1.5 cm to the left of it's actual, invisible location. Does this sound familiar? IIRC, a very similar question was asked on Red Hat's enigma-list a short while ago. Try searching the archives - maybe there is an answer there. -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] If it aint't broken it hasn't got enough features yet. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What people think of IGLU.
On Tue, 2002-05-21 at 00:03, Nadav Har'El wrote: On Mon, May 20, 2002, Amir Hardon wrote about What people think of IGLU.: You should see what some linux users think about IGLU (They don't like it!). Here is a link (The thread name is BEITAR): http://www.tapuz.co.il/Forum.asp?id=236 Thanks for pointing us to that vile thread. I really really tried to respond on that forum, but I can't register or post via Galeon :-( I hope someone who reads both list and the forum can pass this on... I have a couple of things to say: 1. Linux-Il people have no ownership on Linux is Israel. We're established as the non official 'official' body only because of one fact: we do stuff. Got the server to run IGLU, organize meetings and lectures, do shows and insta parties. Now mind you, that this 'we' thing is a bit stretched - there are individual people doing stuff, in the technion or otherwise, and most of them are also subscribned to the list. That's all. Talk is cheap: if you 'do stuff' you'll get recognition and all the respect in the world, if you just talk about the bad people here, we'll ignore you. It's that simple. ;-) 2. Linux-IL is in English because the person who founded this list didn't speak Hebrew! added to that is the fact that in past times a lot of people did not have Hebrew enabled email software on Linux (or otherwise). So yes, these things have changed, but we still like our little list the way it is. Why dont you guys open a new list, or a web forum which you already seem to do? there's no need for only one resource on Linux in Israelm, there should and can be many. 3. Nimrod Keret (agent zzzen to some ;-) have already translated Squishdot to Hebrew, so there is not need to do it again. I think everyone here will be more then happy to give anyone who wants place on the IGLU website to build and maintain a free (as-in-speech) Hebrew web forum. How about it guys? 4. 99% of anything is crap. And this is true for both the people on Linux-il and your forum. 5. There really is no need for 'us and them' mentality. You think we suck? good! proove us wrong and do it better. In fact, we'll help you do it better if we can. Now, if you stay on your forum and continue to talk about how bad we all are nothing will happen. If you'll go out and do something (like establish a free Hebrew forum that anyone can come to and doesnt need to give their show size to tapuz or ynet and supports Linux browsers) you'll be a net.god. Well, maybe a net.angel - we have an inflation of net.gods lately... ;-) What will it be? Cheers, Gilad. -- Gilad Ben-Yossef [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://benyossef.com Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia! = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mouse suddenly off center
I had a simillar trouble with the mouse and the X system, i found out that the gpm crashes with the mouse on X, did you try to shut down the mouse on the console, and then to work with X? Root: gpm -k /etc/init.d/gpm stop (use one of them) Then startx, maybe that's the problem, good luck. - Original Message - From: Oleg Goldshmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 21 May 2002 06:43:35 +0300 To: Arie Folger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: mouse suddenly off center Arie Folger [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: upgrading to RH7.3+KDE3.0.1, and I don't know what to blame. Sometimes, as I am working and X is on, the mouse pointer suddenly ceases to represent the actual coordinates of this critter (actually, it's a touchpad), and is about 1.5 cm to the left of it's actual, invisible location. Does this sound familiar? IIRC, a very similar question was asked on Red Hat's enigma-list a short while ago. Try searching the archives - maybe there is an answer there. -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] If it aint't broken it hasn't got enough features yet. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ___ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
