Re: Anti-RTL mindset is similar to anti-accessibility mindset
On Fri, Jun 06, 2008, Shachar Shemesh wrote about Re: Anti-RTL mindset is similar to anti-accessibility mindset: We are trying to get someone from Google to talk about Android during August Penguin, but my main concern with it is that, at least so far, it appears like it will not be very open. It is an open platform, in the sense that anyone can write software for it. This is a great improvement over other phones, and definitely an iPhone killer, but it is not sufficient reason for me to forgo my OpneMoko hopes. My hopes is that it will be as open as the Palm Pilot of almost a decade ago. Meaning that everyone can write software for it (not necessarily the crappy software that the phone company thought I needed), software that has access to most of the capabilities of the phone (not those useless Java Games that some of today's phones have) - and most importantly - software that I can install without paying all sorts of extortionists^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hmiddlemen like my phone company and all those disgusting content companies that you see advertising to children (for them, it seems sensible that if they get a child to send one SMS to them, they can bill him how much they want, again and again, and go with impunity). Frankly, being able to modify the drivers of the phone or the basic OS, and similar low-level stuff (which you couldn't do on the Plam Pilot) is low on my wish list. I also assume that many of these things will be very specific to each phone model, so it won't be practical to modify them anyway. -- Nadav Har'El|Sunday, Jun 8 2008, 5 Sivan 5768 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Linux *is* user-friendly. Not http://nadav.harel.org.il |idiot-friendly, but user-friendly. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anti-RTL mindset is similar to anti-accessibility mindset
On Fri, Jun 06, 2008, Dotan Cohen wrote about Re: Anti-RTL mindset is similar to anti-accessibility mindset: You try running two toolkits at once on a 400 mHz processor with 128MB RAM, tell me how well it runs, then we'll discuss the option. When I first used X-Windows, the computer I used it on (a Sun machine) had a weaker CPU and less memory than what you describe. I don't remember having any problems running at the same time software using multiple toolkits, like Xlib (e.g., xterm), Xaw (which was once popular), Openlook (well, it was a Sun), Tcl/Tk (this used to be my favorite), Motif, and even GTK (which appeared with Gimp circa 1995). The fact that software is bloated and sucks isn't a fact of nature and wasn't even always true. It can, and should be, fixed. There is absolutely no reason why a toolkit like GTK should bloat the software that uses it. If OpenMoku can't use GTK because it's too bloated - then please place blame where blame is due, i.e., on GTK, not on OpenMoku. (Sorry for being harsh, and you can always refer to my signature below :-). -- Nadav Har'El|Sunday, Jun 8 2008, 5 Sivan 5768 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |The space between my ears was http://nadav.harel.org.il |intentionally left blank. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anti-RTL mindset is similar to anti-accessibility mindset
On Sun, Jun 08, 2008 at 09:57:26AM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote: On Fri, Jun 06, 2008, Dotan Cohen wrote about Re: Anti-RTL mindset is similar to anti-accessibility mindset: You try running two toolkits at once on a 400 mHz processor with 128MB RAM, tell me how well it runs, then we'll discuss the option. When I first used X-Windows, the computer I used it on (a Sun machine) had a weaker CPU and less memory than what you describe. I don't remember having any problems running at the same time software using multiple toolkits, like Xlib (e.g., xterm), Xaw (which was once popular), Openlook (well, it was a Sun), Tcl/Tk (this used to be my favorite), Motif, and even GTK (which appeared with Gimp circa 1995). The fact that software is bloated and sucks isn't a fact of nature and wasn't even always true. It can, and should be, fixed. There is absolutely no reason why a toolkit like GTK should bloat the software that uses it. If OpenMoku can't use GTK because it's too bloated - then please place blame where blame is due, i.e., on GTK, not on OpenMoku. (Sorry for being harsh, and you can always refer to my signature below :-). Right. Nowadays toolkits have all sorts of bloats. For instance, both gtk and QT have support for this strange feature called bidirtionality rendering, which most of the people in the world don't really use. Good thing we have some sane toolkits like ETK ;-) -- Tzafrir Cohen | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's [EMAIL PROTECTED] || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anti-RTL mindset is similar to anti-accessibility mindset
2008/6/8 Nadav Har'El [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Fri, Jun 06, 2008, Dotan Cohen wrote about Re: Anti-RTL mindset is similar to anti-accessibility mindset: You try running two toolkits at once on a 400 mHz processor with 128MB RAM, tell me how well it runs, then we'll discuss the option. When I first used X-Windows, the computer I used it on (a Sun machine) had a weaker CPU and less memory than what you describe. I don't remember having any problems running at the same time software using multiple toolkits, like Xlib (e.g., xterm), Xaw (which was once popular), Openlook (well, it was a Sun), Tcl/Tk (this used to be my favorite), Motif, and even GTK (which appeared with Gimp circa 1995). The fact that software is bloated and sucks isn't a fact of nature and wasn't even always true. It can, and should be, fixed. There is absolutely no reason why a toolkit like GTK should bloat the software that uses it. If OpenMoku can't use GTK because it's too bloated - then please place blame where blame is due, i.e., on GTK, not on OpenMoku. (Sorry for being harsh, and you can always refer to my signature below :-). Although I agree that GTK may be bloated, the fact that the current development model of the OpenMoko phone _requires_ one to use two toolkits is the rootof my complaint. I am referring to the model of using a dev's pet toolkit instead of the superior GTK / Qt toolkit. I call GTK / Qt superior because they support the funcionality that many people need, such as RTL in our specific case. ETK _may_ be a good toolkit, but the dev who mothers it does not say why ETK is a better choice than GTK or Qt, so there is no way to argue _for_ ETK. I would love to know what is so great about ETK, really, I would. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: Anti-RTL mindset is similar to anti-accessibility mindset
On Sun, Jun 08, 2008, Tzafrir Cohen wrote about Re: Anti-RTL mindset is similar to anti-accessibility mindset: The fact that software is bloated and sucks isn't a fact of nature and wasn't even always true. It can, and should be, fixed. There is absolutely no reason why a toolkit like GTK should bloat the software that uses it. If OpenMoku .. Right. Nowadays toolkits have all sorts of bloats. For instance, both gtk and QT have support for this strange feature called bidirtionality rendering, which most of the people in the world don't really use. Features and bloat are not the same thing. All the 90s toolkits I mentioned also had a lot of features, and often even useless features, but somehow they managed to run on CPUs weaker than today's cellphones. RTL support is a feature, not bloat. When you run a KDE clock application and see 100 MB of memory use (or something similar - according to a question someone sent to this list a year ago), believe me, RTL is *not* the reason. We need to watch out - in the effort to emulate Windows, free software is slowly but surely acquiring all its flaws as well. We used to tell people if you have an old machine too slow to run Windows, Linux will save you!. Is this still true??? Lucky that with free software I still have a choice, and can avoid using KDE and GNOME. But this is because I'm eccentric. Hardly anyone else I know uses Linux without relying on KDE or GNOME. -- Nadav Har'El|Sunday, Jun 8 2008, 5 Sivan 5768 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Unlike Microsoft, a restaurant would not http://nadav.harel.org.il |charge me for food with a bug! = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anti-RTL mindset is similar to anti-accessibility mindset
2008/6/7 Ira Abramov [EMAIL PROTECTED]: to me this means as if OpenMoko expect Qtopia will be the more popular chice and GTK is that just for conveniance, am I wrong? I asked on the Openmoko list and they said to look at these threads. I am simply too swamped with studies to check now. Here they are: Please see the LONG threads: - Will GTK be used in Openmoko? (was: Re: Software Status Update) - Switch from GTK to QT (was: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions) - clarification of Qtopia Vs. GTK - Qtopia Vs. GTK or both? - Qte or Qt? at http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/thread.html Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: Anti-RTL mindset is similar to anti-accessibility mindset
Quoting Dotan Cohen, from the post of Fri, 06 Jun: 2008/6/6 Ira Abramov [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Quoting Dotan Cohen, from the post of Tue, 03 Jun: decision. Maybe the ETK/GTK/Qt decision is not arbitrary, but from here it certainly seems so. don't blow it out of proportions either. it does come with GTK, just that the DEFAULT IMPLEMENTATION of the interface is not GTK. you can (and people probably have) implement it again in GTK with BiDi. You try running two toolkits at once on a 400 mHz processor with 128 MB RAM, tell me how well it runs, then we'll discuss the option. a. this was exactly my point about adding in QT support, it made no sense adding a fourth toolkit to a platform that may already be overloaded with 3. b. like I said REIMPLEMENT. the platform comes with three toolkits, but the basic apps runs on the least rich of the three (no doubt because it's the leanest). However if you live in a country that needs RTL and other features, no one is stoping you from implementing all those base apps in a different toolkit to add those fetures. In fact I have no doubt somewhere someone already started. that was you use a heavier toolkit, but can use it for everything. -- Fighting for a lost cause Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anti-RTL mindset is similar to anti-accessibility mindset
Quoting Shachar Shemesh, from the post of Fri, 06 Jun: Ira Abramov wrote: In fact, I would not be surprised if they take over the Symbian market within a year or two as well. the iPhone will survive, but I think OpenMoko is too slow and heavy to stay afloat in the coming flood. We are trying to get someone from Google to talk about Android during August Penguin, but my main concern with it is that, at least so far, it appears like it will not be very open. It is an open platform, in the sense that anyone can write software for it. This is a great improvement over other phones, and definitely an iPhone killer, but it is not sufficient reason for me to forgo my OpneMoko hopes. well, I saw the vids and didn't dive further into it. it seems like if you stick to apps that indeed it's limiting and well behaved, as much as it would be to write an app to any J2ME phone I guess, but since Android IS GNU/Linux below it will have to come with sources and therefore allow circumvantion and reinvention of the OS for any phone that runs it, am I wrong? The only difference is that here you can't freely buy a reference hardware platform (with official support) like with OpenMoko, but need to improvise one yourself. Still, you have full access to all the firmware (like openmoko) on a richer platform (3.5G and 4G phones, no doubt). with OpenMoko you stay stuck with barely GPRS, no multitouch and other features that are quickly becoming the standard for 2009 smartphones. Also, bear in mind that all indications show that OpenMoko phones WILL be able to run Android. http://code.google.com/android/ yes, but how will they compete with the rest? just the hardware hackers? a small niche indeed. -- Bugfix release Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anti-RTL mindset is similar to anti-accessibility mindset
2008/6/7 Ira Abramov [EMAIL PROTECTED]: You try running two toolkits at once on a 400 mHz processor with 128 MB RAM, tell me how well it runs, then we'll discuss the option. a. this was exactly my point about adding in QT support, it made no sense adding a fourth toolkit to a platform that may already be overloaded with 3. I think that Qt was one of the three, the other two being ETK and GTK. b. like I said REIMPLEMENT. the platform comes with three toolkits, but the basic apps runs on the least rich of the three (no doubt because it's the leanest). However if you live in a country that needs RTL and other features, no one is stoping you from implementing all those base apps in a different toolkit to add those fetures. In fact I have no doubt somewhere someone already started. that was you use a heavier toolkit, but can use it for everything. Yes, the _entire_ _interface_ can most certainly be rewritten. That means that there will be no support for users of the rewritten interface, just as KDE users should not expect help with their desktop in Gnome support channels. And with an extremely small developer pool for the rewritten interface, the user would be in a _worse_ position than had he used a proprietary application unless he is a developer himself. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: Anti-RTL mindset is similar to anti-accessibility mindset
Quoting Dotan Cohen, from the post of Sat, 07 Jun: You try running two toolkits at once on a 400 mHz processor with 128 MB RAM, tell me how well it runs, then we'll discuss the option. a. this was exactly my point about adding in QT support, it made no sense adding a fourth toolkit to a platform that may already be overloaded with 3. I think that Qt was one of the three, the other two being ETK and GTK. I'm not fluent in the Openmoko-verse, but I think it seems you are right, it's GtK and Qtopia. however according to this (out of date?) page, the base apps are GTK and not ETK, so which is right? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Why_Not_QT -- Karma chameleon Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anti-RTL mindset is similar to anti-accessibility mindset
Quoting Ira Abramov, from the post of Sat, 07 Jun: I'm not fluent in the Openmoko-verse, but I think it seems you are right, it's GtK and Qtopia. however according to this (out of date?) page, the base apps are GTK and not ETK, so which is right? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Why_Not_QT yup, Qtopia is there and IS USED by shipped apps, contrary to GTK which I now read is installed only if depended upon. https://saschashideout.de/blog/2008/may/19/openmoko-updates/ to me this means as if OpenMoko expect Qtopia will be the more popular chice and GTK is that just for conveniance, am I wrong? -- Lord of the Pings Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anti-RTL mindset is similar to anti-accessibility mindset
to me this means as if OpenMoko expect Qtopia will be the more popular chice and GTK is that just for conveniance, am I wrong? I will ask on the OpenMoko list and get back to you. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: Anti-RTL mindset is similar to anti-accessibility mindset
Ira Abramov wrote: In fact, I would not be surprised if they take over the Symbian market within a year or two as well. the iPhone will survive, but I think OpenMoko is too slow and heavy to stay afloat in the coming flood. We are trying to get someone from Google to talk about Android during August Penguin, but my main concern with it is that, at least so far, it appears like it will not be very open. It is an open platform, in the sense that anyone can write software for it. This is a great improvement over other phones, and definitely an iPhone killer, but it is not sufficient reason for me to forgo my OpneMoko hopes. Also, bear in mind that all indications show that OpenMoko phones WILL be able to run Android. http://code.google.com/android/ Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anti-RTL mindset is similar to anti-accessibility mindset
2008/6/6 Ira Abramov [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Quoting Dotan Cohen, from the post of Tue, 03 Jun: decision. Maybe the ETK/GTK/Qt decision is not arbitrary, but from here it certainly seems so. don't blow it out of proportions either. it does come with GTK, just that the DEFAULT IMPLEMENTATION of the interface is not GTK. you can (and people probably have) implement it again in GTK with BiDi. You try running two toolkits at once on a 400 mHz processor with 128 MB RAM, tell me how well it runs, then we'll discuss the option. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: Anti-RTL mindset is similar to anti-accessibility mindset
Quoting Dotan Cohen, from the post of Tue, 03 Jun: decision. Maybe the ETK/GTK/Qt decision is not arbitrary, but from here it certainly seems so. don't blow it out of proportions either. it does come with GTK, just that the DEFAULT IMPLEMENTATION of the interface is not GTK. you can (and people probably have) implement it again in GTK with BiDi. However the more I read about gPhones (Android-running swarm of gadgets coming to our market for the christmas season) I think OpenMoko and even the iPhone are going to have a serious compatition on both their niches. it's full GNU/Linux and thus has at least 90% of the Openness of OpenMoko (maybe some drivers excluded), and they will come in all variations of type pads and touchscreens, but with 3.5G and up to boot. Knowing Google, they will have a lovely design, great set of built-in apps, BiDi support and who knows what else. In fact, I would not be surprised if they take over the Symbian market within a year or two as well. the iPhone will survive, but I think OpenMoko is too slow and heavy to stay afloat in the coming flood. http://code.google.com/android/ -- An intelligence failure Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anti-RTL mindset is similar to anti-accessibility mindset
2008/6/3 Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: You are confusing two completely different things. It is one thing to claim adding accessibility support to the product will increase its cost, and not increase its market share enough, to make the product non-commercially viable. This claim, essentially, says it's not a choice between accessible and an inaccessible software, it's a choice between inaccessible software and no software at all. Under those circumstances, I can understand the trade off. Neither you, I, nor anyone else have the right to tell someone to do what THEY do our way. However, at least in my eyes, that was not the discussion on the openmoko community list. Christen definitely thought that was what I asked (and who knows, maybe it was and I wasn't aware of it), but at least to me what I asked that accessibility (or, in this case, RTL support) be *considered* when technologies are evaluated. There is a major problem between someone making an deaf inaccessible MP3 player and someone making a deaf inaccessible shoot them up. In the former case, the cost of trying to make it accessible is a major part of the development cost. In the later, merely keeping in mind that deaf people would also be playing this is all it really takes. Part of the problem, and this is not the first time I see this happening, is that free software developers think that because things are free, it means they do not need to be accountable. There is some measure of truth to that line of thinking when things are completely transparent. If the decision to dump GTK and go ETK were held on an open mailing list where everyone had a chance to voice their opinions then I would certainly understand why someone coming in late in the game and saying you have to change your already arrived at decision would be disregarded. This was not the case here, however. What happened here is that the decision was taken as it is with proprietary software companies - one day we wake up and we find the decision has already been taken, and the only one around to explain it is the same person who wrote ETK, and is as open to criticism about it as a mother is to criticism about her child. In my eyes, the less transparent you are about your decision making process, the more accountable you are about the end result. THIS is my main criticism about this process. It is entirely possible that moving to ETK was the right move, unfortunate BiDi state and all. Without knowing the reasoning, I have no way to tell. Shachar I think that you are seeing the situation exactly how it is, because after reading the thread I deduced the same conclusion. When I must make a decision between two competing products, I usually evaluate the disadvantages of each, as opposed to the advantages. The advantages will add 'little features' that one may or may not need. Yet, it is the disadvantages that will cause major headaches and possibly derail a project. I assume that the developer in question had not considered the disadvantages of his toolkit, and worse, is either unable or unwilling to acknowledge the existance of disadvantages. That is not what I expect of a FOSS community project, and it really turns me off to that device. That is a shame, as I was very excited about the device until I knew about this situation. It would be the same for me had the device been built in a way that CJK would not be supported and RTL would be supported. Even if my demanded (note that I do not say preferred, even though as you see I am relatively fluent in English) language were available I would stay away from a device who's inherent design excludes a large population by some arbitrary decision. Maybe the ETK/GTK/Qt decision is not arbitrary, but from here it certainly seems so. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Anti-RTL mindset is similar to anti-accessibility mindset (was: Re: Openmoko Group sale)
Chiming in the discussion, my 7 agorot (2 cents) are as follows. The mindset of the Openmoko developers seems to me to be anti-accessibility. It stands to reason that they'll turn down requests to provide for accessibility to people with disabilities. The devices are probably inherently unusable by blind people (like music for deaf people). However, deaf people can be victimized by software, which beeps without visual indication. Color-blind people can be victimized by software UI design, which relies too much on color cues, and which does not provide for ability to change colors. Epileptic people can be victimized by software, which insists upon blinking. Nevertheless, the percentage of those people in the general population is small enough for the Openmoko to make a case for ignoring their needs, much the same way they make a case for ignoring the needs of RTL people. --- Omer On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 00:52 +0300, Ira Abramov wrote: Quoting Dotan Cohen, from the post of Mon, 02 Jun: everyone, then I would expect that support for LTR, RTL, TTB, and other methods of writing should be a core part of the UI, not tacked on later. haven't seen the discussion, but I'd imagine the most sensible reply from OpenMoko would be we provide a hardware platform and a basic UI with 3(!) different toolkits. Don't make us pick sides, do your own hacking. -- Kosher Cellphones (cellphones with blocked SMS, video and Internet) are menace to the deaf. They must be outlawed! (See also: http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/2006/04/21/the-grave-danger-to-the-deaf-from-kosher-cellphones/) My own blog is at http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/ My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone. They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which I may be affiliated in any way. WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anti-RTL mindset is similar to anti-accessibility mindset
Omer Zak wrote: Chiming in the discussion, my 7 agorot (2 cents) are as follows. The mindset of the Openmoko developers seems to me to be anti-accessibility. It stands to reason that they'll turn down requests to provide for accessibility to people with disabilities. The devices are probably inherently unusable by blind people (like music for deaf people). However, deaf people can be victimized by software, which beeps without visual indication. Color-blind people can be victimized by software UI design, which relies too much on color cues, and which does not provide for ability to change colors. Epileptic people can be victimized by software, which insists upon blinking. Nevertheless, the percentage of those people in the general population is small enough for the Openmoko to make a case for ignoring their needs, much the same way they make a case for ignoring the needs of RTL people. --- Omer You are confusing two completely different things. It is one thing to claim adding accessibility support to the product will increase its cost, and not increase its market share enough, to make the product non-commercially viable. This claim, essentially, says it's not a choice between accessible and an inaccessible software, it's a choice between inaccessible software and no software at all. Under those circumstances, I can understand the trade off. Neither you, I, nor anyone else have the right to tell someone to do what THEY do our way. However, at least in my eyes, that was not the discussion on the openmoko community list. Christen definitely thought that was what I asked (and who knows, maybe it was and I wasn't aware of it), but at least to me what I asked that accessibility (or, in this case, RTL support) be *considered* when technologies are evaluated. There is a major problem between someone making an deaf inaccessible MP3 player and someone making a deaf inaccessible shoot them up. In the former case, the cost of trying to make it accessible is a major part of the development cost. In the later, merely keeping in mind that deaf people would also be playing this is all it really takes. Part of the problem, and this is not the first time I see this happening, is that free software developers think that because things are free, it means they do not need to be accountable. There is some measure of truth to that line of thinking when things are completely transparent. If the decision to dump GTK and go ETK were held on an open mailing list where everyone had a chance to voice their opinions then I would certainly understand why someone coming in late in the game and saying you have to change your already arrived at decision would be disregarded. This was not the case here, however. What happened here is that the decision was taken as it is with proprietary software companies - one day we wake up and we find the decision has already been taken, and the only one around to explain it is the same person who wrote ETK, and is as open to criticism about it as a mother is to criticism about her child. In my eyes, the less transparent you are about your decision making process, the more accountable you are about the end result. THIS is my main criticism about this process. It is entirely possible that moving to ETK was the right move, unfortunate BiDi state and all. Without knowing the reasoning, I have no way to tell. Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
