RE: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
On Tue, 23 Jul 2002, Eliran wrote: On Tue, 23 Jul 2002, Michael Sternberg wrote: Just for curiosity: Let's suppose that NetHack was game developed by Micro$oft and Diabolo - by people from some OpenSource project. Will NetHack win then the above comparison ? No. It isn't just about the company/people behind... Regular users (and especially kids) will prefer graphical games like doom/fifa than ASCII-based games like nethack. Show me a buissnes man that will prefer to play nethack over solitair on his free time (having to read the manual). having to read the manual for pysol? pysol, fo example, is a great game, that comes bundled with linux [at least with my debian system]. There are other small games. The kind that used to be popular before the big productions took over, It maybe not profitable to make them commercially, but they *do* exist. And they are a heck of a way to waste my time ;-( -- Tzafrir Cohen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
On Wed, 24 Jul 2002, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: having to read the manual for pysol? pysol, fo example, is a great game, that comes bundled with linux [at least with my debian system]. There areother small games. The kind that used to be popular before the big productions took over, It maybe not profitable to make them commercially, but they *do* exist. And they are a heck of a way to waste my time ;-( i don't understand this emoticon. why do you see 'having fun' as a 'waste of time'? as long as you have fun, you are using your time wisely. you don't have to always do something 'useful'. grownups they loose touch with their inner child ;) -- guy For world domination - press 1, or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator. -- nob o. dy = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
having to read the manual for pysol? Reading the manual of nethack... And they are a heck of a way to waste my time ;-( Well, we compared nethack ... Of course there are other games like Xbill, Xchess etc... -- a href=http://www.rootshell.be/~eg;Eliran G./a = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
On Wed, Jul 24, 2002, Eliran wrote about Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost: Well, we compared nethack ... Of course there are other games like Xbill, Xchess etc... Yeah, Xbill is one game you're not likely to find on Windows machines! :) To quote the XBill story line: Yet again, the fate of the world rests in your hands! An evil computer hacker, known only by his handle 'Bill', has created the ultimate computer virus. A virus so powerfull that it has the power to transmute an ordinary computer into a toaster oven. (oooh!) 'Bill' has cloned himself into a billion-jillion micro-Bills. Their sole purpose is to deliver the nefarious virus, which has been cleverly disguised as a popular operating system. As System Administrator/Exterminator, your job is to keep Bill from succeeding at his task. -- Nadav Har'El| Wednesday, Jul 24 2002, 16 Av 5762 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Politics, n: from Greek, poly=many, http://nadav.harel.org.il |ticks=blood sucking parasites. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Michael Sternberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You can not compare seriously quantity and quality of games on Windows and Linux. And this is major use of computer at the most family homes... :( Yes, you can. I play games whenever I get tired of doing useful stuff (resting the brain). I've found no shortage of free high quality games on Linux (koules, frozen-bubble, moon-buggy) = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
Title: RE: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost Come on :) Walk to any Atid ha Mahshevim store and check how many game titles for Windows they have. Don't forget that every month there are ton of new games for M$ gets developed. And try to calculate in your mind how many games for Linux do you remember. I mean real games, not NetHack - full graphics, animations and sound. Unfortunately, it is still much more profitable to develop games for Windows platform :( -- -Original Message- -- From: Moshe Zadka [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] -- Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 9:14 AM -- To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Subject: RE: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost -- -- -- On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Michael Sternberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- -- You can not compare seriously quantity and quality of -- games on Windows and -- Linux. -- And this is major use of computer at the most family homes... :( -- -- Yes, you can. -- I play games whenever I get tired of doing useful stuff (resting the -- brain). I've found no shortage of free high quality games on Linux -- (koules, frozen-bubble, moon-buggy) -- -- = -- To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with -- the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command -- echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re: Less competition outside of MS-Windows (was: Re: Desktop Linux-- Linux lost)
On Tue, 2002-07-23 at 08:44, Omer Zak wrote: As for the 'Linux Lost' hugwash, I see where all my Windows-centric *programers* friends ended up working (if at all) and I see where I and other Linux people work and I know that *we* have won and will continue to win. All the rest is just intertia. Microsoft rose because of *develpers* and it goes down because of them too. It just takes time. This confirms an amazing discovery which I had few months ago. I used to team up with someone, who worked exclusively in MS-Windows environment - MS-Access and Visual Basic. My target platforms were anything but Microsoft. After few good years, my associate ran into a dry spell during the last few months, while I didn't have idle time. Nothing amazing about it at all. I would go so far as to say it was down right expected and is only a certain midphase in a proccess that is going to get stronger over time. My explanation of the observation is that the scene is full of Web designers. Those who are somewhat better - do MS-Access and Visual Basic. They are the ones with whom my associate needed to compete over projects. On the other hand, the platforms, which I target, are considered to be arcane, unpopular or difficult by the crowd, so I have less competition for those projects, which do come up. This is a very good analasys. However, it isn't the whole story. Linux developers are also more productive (and again, this applies to people who write actuall systems, not to 'web designers', SQL monkeys or script kittens...). This isn't because they are extra smart people, it's simply because they have better tools and they got better tools because of the way we operate, that is freedom. Proof: Management request: The customers want a tools that will disconncet them from the Internet after 90 minutes. Linux programer reponse: sleep 90; killall pppd; if you want a GUI for this it'll take another 10 minutes... MS programer response: I've written the GUI in 5 minutes. It looks great. I've found in a MSDN a code example that disconnects the PPP connection. However, it does not work on Win2000 and it seems that the only three persons on earth that know how to fix it are somewhere in a basement in Redmond and not even our MSDN universal subscription contact can get them to asnwer before 2034 Both are equelly smart. BUT who will get things *done*? you guessed it. Of course, over time the smart developers realise this and tend to gravitate towards Linux/Free software because they know they can be more productive there. And they will start making the tools even better (and they can because the tools are free-as-in-speech) and the better tools bring in even more smart developers and we get a postive feedback loop that makes sure that over time Linux has the better developers and great tools. This proccess has been going on for aprox. 10 years now. And just like any other virus the growth here is exponential, that is - until the very last doublings you hardly see any effect on the real numbers of developers. But now we're getting into those last steps and the race is almost run. Can you guess who is winning? :-) As for the Desktop sillinies, some historical perspective is due. Somewhere around 1980 a couple of smart people in Xerox PARC and Apple computers realised that in order to get the mundanes to use computers they must make sure computers provide a similar interface to what those people were used to. Most knowledge workers at that time worked with desktops (real table desktops, not computers!) so they made the computer interface imitate that, complete with bug to bug compatability, like making you do something sepcial to 'uncover' windows when other windows are above them just like pieces of paper... (thank you Oleg for the example :-). This was a brilliant move that made computers truly obiqutous and made sure there now, 20 years after the fact there are no more people that actually work with real table desktops. The Desktop interface simulation was so succeffull it completly obliterated the actaul desktop - the simulation transformed into a simulacra... Welcome to the desert of the real, indeed. Now we can finally leave these old crutches behind. The old Desktop interface is just bagage now. Windows is dragging it behind. Linux doesn't. This is an *advantage*, folks. We shouldn't be building better Linux desktops and we aren't (we can and do match them though). We should be building something NEW. A graphical CLI interface anyone? one that isn't bound to he stupid desktop metaphor? I donno. But we will find out. Ok, rant finished. We can continue arguing about games now... Anyone up for a game of Tekken3 ?:-) Gilad. -- Gilad Ben-Yossef [EMAIL PROTECTED] Code mangler, senior coffee drinker and VP SIGSEGV Qlusters ltd. You got an EMP device in the server room? That is so cool. -- from a hackers-il thread on paranoia
RE: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
On Tue, 23 Jul 2002, Michael Sternberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Walk to any Atid ha Mahshevim store and check how many game titles for Windows they have. Why should I? When I want games I just apt-get install them Don't forget that every month there are ton of new games for M$ gets developed. And why should I care? And try to calculate in your mind how many games for Linux do you remember. More than those I remember for Windows. I mean real games, not NetHack - full graphics, animations and sound. Nethack is a real game. You define real as game developed for MS, and then wonder why there are so few real games. As an aside, my machine has no soundcard, so I couldn't care less about sound support. Games with too much animations tend to crawl anyway when I'm doing something else with my machine (like compiling or installing software), so I actually prefer the lighter ones. Unfortunately, it is still much more profitable to develop games for Windows platform :( And, again, I don't see my reason for caring about this fact? I think what you're missing is that I really don't care whether other people are pleased with the games Linux has -- I am not other people. I care about whether *I* have a useful desktop. For me, a useful desktop certainly implies games -- sometimes I get tired of coding or writing papers, and I need to take my mind off things. And I do. I have Debian GNU/Linux sid, which is a wonderful desktop for me. Hence, it's a win. I don't care how popular it is, I don't care if nobody except me ever uses it -- I don't have to justify economically supporting it, because there are about a thousand people (plus various upstream maintainers, probably closer to 10,000 people) who help maintain it collaboratively. PS. Don't send HTML mail to the list. It does nobody any good. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Less competition outside of MS-Windows (was: Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost)
Gilad Ben-Yossef [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As for the Desktop sillinies, some historical perspective is due. Somewhere around 1980 a couple of smart people in Xerox PARC and Apple computers realised that in order to get the mundanes to use computers they must make sure computers provide a similar interface to what those people were used to. Most knowledge workers at that time worked with desktops (real table desktops, not computers!) so they made the computer interface imitate that, complete with bug to bug compatability, like making you do something sepcial to 'uncover' windows when other windows are above them just like pieces of paper... (thank you Oleg for the example :-). And since you have so artfully dragged me into it [ ;-) ], let me add my Euro 0.02 to the historical perspective: recall that those Apple developers used an advanced (for that time) CLI for their own work, not the desktop metaphor. In my mind, besides the artificial and backward nature of the desktop metaphor, this is a basic point related to the way you interact with the system. A menu-driven GUI lets you choose between the options offered. A language that the computer understands (bash, perl, scsh, insert you favourite here) allows you to explain to the computer what you want. This metaphor [if you allow me to stretch the meaning of the word this far] describes the actual state of interfaces better than desktop, IMHO. Also note that Linux desktops do offer autoraise, and out of ther box, too, while M$ doesn't... -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] IBM is a pretty big company. [W. Gates] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Less competition outside of MS-Windows (was: Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost)
On Tue, Jul 23, 2002 at 11:49:56AM +0300, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: Gilad Ben-Yossef [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As for the Desktop sillinies, some historical perspective is due. Somewhere around 1980 a couple of smart people in Xerox PARC and Apple computers realised that in order to get the mundanes to use computers they must make sure computers provide a similar interface to what those people were used to. Most knowledge workers at that time worked with desktops (real table desktops, not computers!) so they made the computer interface imitate that, complete with bug to bug compatability, like making you do something sepcial to 'uncover' windows when other windows are above them just like pieces of paper... (thank you Oleg for the example :-). And since you have so artfully dragged me into it [ ;-) ], let me add my Euro 0.02 to the historical perspective: recall that those Apple developers used an advanced (for that time) CLI for their own work, not the desktop metaphor. In my mind, besides the artificial and backward nature of the desktop metaphor, this is a basic point related to the way you interact with the system. A menu-driven GUI lets you choose between the options offered. A language that the computer understands (bash, perl, scsh, insert you favourite here) allows you to explain to the computer what you want. This metaphor [if you allow me to stretch the meaning of the word this far] describes the actual state of interfaces better than desktop, IMHO. And to whoever finds such discussions interesting, I suggest reading In the Beginning was the Command Line by Neal Stephenson (Search google, but take an html version, e.g. http://www.spack.org/words/commandline.html - it's better formated). It's one of the most enjoying books I have read recently. Also note that Linux desktops do offer autoraise, and out of ther box, too, while M$ doesn't... -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] IBM is a pretty big company. [W. Gates] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Didi = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
On 23 Jul 2002, Moshe Zadka wrote: And try to calculate in your mind how many games for Linux do you remember. More than those I remember for Windows. I mean real games, not NetHack - full graphics, animations and sound. Nethack is a real game. You define real as game developed for MS, and then wonder why there are so few real games. As an aside, my machine has no soundcard, so I couldn't care less about sound support. Games with too much animations tend to crawl anyway when I'm doing something else with my machine (like compiling or installing software), so I actually prefer the lighter ones. He Actually mean fullscreen 3D/2D games like : Unreal, GTA3 and other windowish games... Nethack is a console game (even though there is a GUI version) that uses the keyboard keys (not the arrows keys, A...Z keys) for moving and other operations. Compare Diablo and Nethack. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
On Tue, Jul 23, 2002 at 02:14:22PM +0300, Eliran wrote: Nethack is a console game (even though there is a GUI version) that uses the keyboard keys (not the arrows keys, A...Z keys) for moving and other operations. Compare Diablo and Nethack. I did. Nethack won. Did you have a point? ObIGLU: 10 days to August Penguins, and counting. -- http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~mulix/ http://syscalltrack.sf.net/ msg20638/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
Just for curiosity: Let's suppose that NetHack was game developed by Micro$oft and Diabolo - by people from some OpenSource project. Will NetHack win then the above comparison ? -- -Original Message- -- From: Muli Ben-Yehuda [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] -- -- On Tue, Jul 23, 2002 at 02:14:22PM +0300, Eliran wrote: -- -- Nethack is a console game (even though there is a GUI version) that uses -- the keyboard keys (not the arrows keys, A...Z keys) for moving and other -- operations. Compare Diablo and Nethack. -- -- I did. Nethack won. Did you have a point? -- = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
I will iterate my view of his point: Games are judged by many factors, two of which are playability and game experience. Playability will be roughly defined here as how well does the game capture the player's attention, and how long can they keep his/her interest, focusing his/her attention on solving the game rather than fooling with irrelevant things. Game experience will be rougly defined here as the multi-media presentation of the game. These usually include high res in-game graphics, audio, etc. Things like force-feedback joystick effects will, depending on the usage, enter either the first or the second category. There has also been a recent slashdot article about 1st person shooters for the blind, in which sound entered the first category. Introductions aside, while I do not argue that the second is more important than the first (I do not - I think Robot Oddesey is one of the best games ever, and it was a low res apple game), I do claim that there is no inherent reason why a game will not rank high on both. For example of such a game, I point you to Decent I. It is unfortunate for the modern games industry that playability is not ranked as high as it should. I guess creating games with good physics models costs a lot, and does not sell the game as well as creating wonderful graphics. While this does tend to explain why people here tend to think that free beer games are better (no economic pressure to invest resources in places that won't help the game), this does mean that thinking of Linux as a games platform does not happen. As I was around when, in the late 80's and early 90's of the previous century, a multi-tasking windowing system for the home user was killed because people thought of it as a gaming platform ONLY, I know what perception is worth. I think disregarding it is dangarous. I think Linux users (putting the Zadkas of the world aside for a second, who think all software should only be Free) should realize that the fact that the platform is free, does not necessarily mean that software for it are not worth good money. Shachar Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote: On Tue, Jul 23, 2002 at 02:14:22PM +0300, Eliran wrote: Nethack is a console game (even though there is a GUI version) that uses the keyboard keys (not the arrows keys, A...Z keys) for moving and other operations. Compare Diablo and Nethack. I did. Nethack won. Did you have a point? ObIGLU: 10 days to August Penguins, and counting. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
On Tue, 23 Jul 2002, Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote: On Tue, Jul 23, 2002 at 02:14:22PM +0300, Eliran wrote: Nethack is a console game (even though there is a GUI version) that uses the keyboard keys (not the arrows keys, A...Z keys) for moving and other operations. Compare Diablo and Nethack. I did. Nethack won. Did you have a point? This is what a UNIX user will say ^, of course some people do prefer to work on graphical X games... not much really newbies mostly... If you will ask the same question to a win-guy what do you think he will say ? Old-win users would expect high quality graphics game with 3D sound and other `goodies'. Most UNIX users don't really care wether it is a console-based game or graphical one. ObIGLU: 10 days to August Penguins, and counting. -- http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~mulix/ http://syscalltrack.sf.net/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
On Tue, 23 Jul 2002, Shachar Shemesh wrote: I will iterate my view of his point: Games are judged by many factors, two of which are playability and game experience. Playability will be roughly defined here as how well does the game capture the player's attention, and how long can they keep his/her interest, focusing his/her attention on solving the game rather than fooling with irrelevant things. Game experience will be rougly defined here as the multi-media presentation of the game. These usually include high res in-game graphics, audio, etc. That is why most people will prefer to play doom rather than nethack (they need to read the manual to learn the keys... it is not just the arrows keys and the mouse). = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
On Tue, 23 Jul 2002, Michael Sternberg wrote: Just for curiosity: Let's suppose that NetHack was game developed by Micro$oft and Diabolo - by people from some OpenSource project. Will NetHack win then the above comparison ? No. It isn't just about the company/people behind... Regular users (and especially kids) will prefer graphical games like doom/fifa than ASCII-based games like nethack. Show me a buissnes man that will prefer to play nethack over solitair on his free time (having to read the manual). ---Original Message- --From: Muli Ben-Yehuda [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] -- --On Tue, Jul 23, 2002 at 02:14:22PM +0300, Eliran wrote: -- -- Nethack is a console game (even though there is a GUI version) that uses -- the keyboard keys (not the arrows keys, A...Z keys) for moving and other -- operations. Compare Diablo and Nethack. -- --I did. Nethack won. Did you have a point? -- = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
On Tue, Jul 23, 2002, Michael Sternberg wrote about RE: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost: Just for curiosity: Let's suppose that NetHack was game developed by Micro$oft and Diabolo - by people from some OpenSource project. Will NetHack win then the above comparison ? Touche :) -- Nadav Har'El| Tuesday, Jul 23 2002, 14 Av 5762 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Sign above a shop selling burglar alarms: http://nadav.harel.org.il |For the man who has everything = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
On Tue, Jul 23, 2002, Eliran wrote about Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost: I did. Nethack won. Did you have a point? This is what a UNIX user will say ^, of course some people do prefer to work on graphical X games... not much really newbies mostly... If you will ask the same question to a win-guy what do you think he will say ? I don't see why some people here associate good-looking graphical games with Microsoft. Most good games have nothing to do with Microsoft, and many of them are not even for Windows (ever heard of game consoles, arcades, and so on?). 20 years ago, before the PC or Microsoft became prevalant, people were already playing graphical games on personal computers like the Commodore-64. It's not and idea Microsoft invented... At that period, Unix was usually run on mainframe and textual terminals, which is why textual and curses- based games like Rogue (on which Nethack's idea was based) were invented. But as soon as people had graphics on Unix, they also wanted graphical games. I think the first graphical game I saw on Unix was in 1985, on an ATT 5620 dot-mapped display (DMD), which was a game where you fly a spaceship and need to shoot down things things like the logos of ATT and IBM, and Ken Thompson's (or was it somebody else's?) face :) Nowadays there are many graphical Linux games, but let's not kid ourselves: most (if not all) new games that thrill kids are for either Windows or game consoles, not for Linux. Kids who play games on Windows usually don't care that Linux games are free! because they also copy the Windows games from friends without paying anything to anyone... Old-win users would expect high quality graphics game with 3D sound and other `goodies'. Most UNIX users don't really care wether it is a console-based game or graphical one. There is a very small number of good text-based games, and I don't think anyone wrote a good new one in the last decade (but correct me if I'm wrong). Many Unix devotees still prefer good-looking, good-sounding games, in my experience. -- Nadav Har'El| Tuesday, Jul 23 2002, 14 Av 5762 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |What's the difference between roast beef http://nadav.harel.org.il |and pea soup? Anyone can roast beef. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
On Tue, 23 Jul 2002, Eliran [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I did. Nethack won. Did you have a point? This is what a UNIX user will say ^ Ummm.did you happen to see what list you were in? Yes, of course that is what UNIX users say. In that respect, Linux won. of course some people do prefer to work on graphical X games... not much really newbies mostly... And more power to them. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
Nadav Har'El wrote: Nowadays there are many graphical Linux games, but let's not kid ourselves: most (if not all) new games that thrill kids are for either Windows or game consoles, not for Linux. Kids who play games on Windows usually don't care that Linux games are free! because they also copy the Windows games from friends without paying anything to anyone... Free is not the issue, I personally would rather pay for a good game, then get a mediocre game for free. but the sad fact remains, that most of the target audience for games (the people that do actually pay for them) at worst have never even seen a *nix up close, and at best are dual booting with windows as the default. so game companies (the people that can invest time and money in game development, and this is what counts) will not invest that in Linux only games, or even linux porting : it is simply not a good business. of course, this is the magic circle, and in this respect Linux not lost - it was never a contender (unlike another popular *nix : MacOSX). The only way to break out of the magic circle, is to develop game engines which run natively on many platforms, as GarageGames are trying to do with their Torque game engine, which allow a just recompile ease of portability to multiple operating systems. -- Oded Arbel m-Wise mobile solutions [EMAIL PROTECTED] +972-9-9581711 +972-67-340014 ::.. In 1968 it took the computing power of 2 c-64 to fly a rocket to the moon. Now, 1998 it takes the power of a Pentium 133 to run Microsoft Windows 95. Something must have gone wrong. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
Orna Agmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Linux is complicated, becasue you compile. Corollary: Windows is simple because no compiler comes with the system... -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] IBM is a pretty big company. [W. Gates] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
I meant that installation should be much more user-friendly so that a general user will be able to install it alone. -- a href=http://www.rootshell.be/~eg;Eliran G./a - Original Message - From: Orna Agmon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Eliran [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Tzafrir Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 8:28 PM Subject: Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Eliran wrote: The user can be newbie and technophibic, as long as there is a NextDoorKid who can install the system and can drop by and help once in a while (isn't it the same with windows users?). Note that the NextDoorKid can actually connect from a remote host via ssh, which was setup in advance when the system was installed. So that is why technicians get paid... They are the NextDoorKid... In the window$ world, people *pay* for a technician to *install* that-other-os for them. I definitely don't want this will happen in the linux world. Why should there not be money made from Linux? Passing the software for free is one thing, but working at instalations and support is another: It *does* cost time, per each additional user. I don't think that just because the OS is free, everybody must work for free on everything around it. (Say, if the computer is supposed to run Linux, why not get it for free from the store?) And sarcasm put aside, if technicians were able to make a living out of Linux, they would encourage the installation of it. If somebody without a KidNextDoor would be able to open yellopages , pay 200 shekels and get support, without being dependant on a specific person, then Linux could be a good Desktop. Bottom line: I would be happy to see people charging for (and making a living off) Linux related work. -- Orna. | http://tx.technion.ac.il/~agmon There are only 10 types of people in the world- Those who understand binary, and those who do not. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
A computer is a complecated system. When something is broken in your house you can either fix it yourself (if you know how), ask a friend to fix it for you, or call a shiputznik. Quite the same with computers. But installations *should* be a basic and easy to use thing, at least that what an average user expect. *Excuse Me*? You say a technitian is needed to install a user-friendly windows, but you expect linux to be even simpler to install, by everybody. Some windows users (that I know) *don't* know how to install the OS. If we want these kind of users to use linux, we at least should make the installation easier. -- a href=http://www.rootshell.be/~eg;Eliran G./a = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Eliran wrote: A computer is a complecated system. When something is broken in your house you can either fix it yourself (if you know how), ask a friend to fix it for you, or call a shiputznik. Quite the same with computers. But installations *should* be a basic and easy to use thing, at least that what an average user expect. No. repeat after me: Reinstallation is not the solution What is needed is to convince users that there are more *efficient* troubleshooting measures than reinstallation. A linux system should also be more managable than a windows system, provided that the package management system is used properly. *Excuse Me*? You say a technitian is needed to install a user-friendly windows, but you expect linux to be even simpler to install, by everybody. Some windows users (that I know) *don't* know how to install the OS. If we want these kind of users to use linux, we at least should make the installation easier. If we care so much for those windows users, we will insall linux for them (or hold their hand when installing) If we care less about them, we will try to convince them to hire us to hold their hand for the purpose of installation. Note: I don't mean to patronize here. I don't consider myself as a member of some elitistic group who will grant knowledge to the rest of the people according to my heart's desires. It is the simple consideration of availability (I have only time for holding the hand of a number of users users) and living (if people are willing to pay or that, and itbenefits both sides, and generally everybody, then why not?) -- Tzafrir Cohen/\ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]\ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign Taub 229, 972-4-829-3942, X Against HTML Mail http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir / \ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
Eliran [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Some windows users (that I know) *don't* know how to install the OS. If we want these kind of users to use linux, we at least should make the installation easier. True story: Yesterday night an acquaintance asked me to help her with her computer. She was expecting a carpenter to work on her desk and bookshelves, so she wanted to move her computer away. The help she wanted from me was to disconnect the cables - she didn't know how to do that. I was happy to oblige. In the process she asked me the stereotypic question, Do I need a modem to connect to the Internet? I invited the question advising her where the phone cable should go and where the carpenter should make a duct for it. I doubt that she would care one way or another what OS was there, since she has no concept of OS. She probably wouldn't care whether or not she could read Word documents either, since I could convince her that some computers cannot read what other computers write (I consider it a true statement). The installation process would not be relevant for her, either. The biggest obstacle for Linux on _her_ desktop would probably be the games her grandchildren want to play when they visit her (coincidentally, the main purpose of her computer). -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] IBM is a pretty big company. [W. Gates] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
My whole point is that installations as a general thing should be easy to use, especially OS's installations... Unless you want only gurus and techies to use the OS... Currently I'm trying to help a newbie to install linux but he gets errors in the installation, that's what he get : hda:hewelt packard cd-writer plus 9300, Atapi cd\DvdRom Drive hdc: maxtor 6L040J2 ATA Disk drive ide2 : ports already in use skiping probe ide 0 : at 0x1f0-0x1f7,0x3f6 on irq 14 ide 1 : -||- -||- -||- -||- -||- -||- -||- -||- -||- something... hdc : 78177792 sectors (40027 MB) w/1818Kib Cache Uniform Cdromdriver Revision 3.12 UDMA(66) ide-floppy driver 0.99.newide partitin check hdc : the cursor, this is when it stuck The good thing in linux is that the error messages are more than a secret code (most of times), unlike in windows where you get BSOD and an fbi-top-secret code that marks an error. Yes BSOD exists even in the installation... Thus win users don't know what to do: call a technician, call microsoft 'supprt', or reinstall win. The latter is the official way of an average win user to handle the problem. If we care so much for those windows users, we will insall linux for them (or hold their hand when installing) Why not ? For the first time it's fine ! but what if they want to show the OS to a friend and install it on his PC ? They will have to call you of course... His friend which let say is an average win user will see that the installation requires someone experienced to do it will dislike the OS and will prefer to stay with his cool win. -- a href=http://www.rootshell.be/~eg;Eliran G./a - Original Message - From: Tzafrir Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Eliran [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 3:49 PM Subject: Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Eliran wrote: A computer is a complecated system. When something is broken in your house you can either fix it yourself (if you know how), ask a friend to fix it for you, or call a shiputznik. Quite the same with computers. But installations *should* be a basic and easy to use thing, at least that what an average user expect. No. repeat after me: Reinstallation is not the solution What is needed is to convince users that there are more *efficient* troubleshooting measures than reinstallation. A linux system should also be more managable than a windows system, provided that the package management system is used properly. *Excuse Me*? You say a technitian is needed to install a user-friendly windows, but you expect linux to be even simpler to install, by everybody. Some windows users (that I know) *don't* know how to install the OS. If we want these kind of users to use linux, we at least should make the installation easier. If we care so much for those windows users, we will insall linux for them (or hold their hand when installing) If we care less about them, we will try to convince them to hire us to hold their hand for the purpose of installation. Note: I don't mean to patronize here. I don't consider myself as a member of some elitistic group who will grant knowledge to the rest of the people according to my heart's desires. It is the simple consideration of availability (I have only time for holding the hand of a number of users users) and living (if people are willing to pay or that, and itbenefits both sides, and generally everybody, then why not?) -- Tzafrir Cohen/\ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]\ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign Taub 229, 972-4-829-3942, X Against HTML Mail http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir / \ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
Of course there are some exceptions, not all users care about the installation or reading/writing documents. But most do care. About the games it's depend about what kind of games... Graphic games such as Quake 1-3 and Unreal works there even better than on win machines, games are available to purchase from locki. -- a href=http://www.rootshell.be/~eg;Eliran G./a - Original Message - From: Oleg Goldshmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 4:02 PM Subject: Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost Eliran [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Some windows users (that I know) *don't* know how to install the OS. If we want these kind of users to use linux, we at least should make the installation easier. True story: Yesterday night an acquaintance asked me to help her with her computer. She was expecting a carpenter to work on her desk and bookshelves, so she wanted to move her computer away. The help she wanted from me was to disconnect the cables - she didn't know how to do that. I was happy to oblige. In the process she asked me the stereotypic question, Do I need a modem to connect to the Internet? I invited the question advising her where the phone cable should go and where the carpenter should make a duct for it. I doubt that she would care one way or another what OS was there, since she has no concept of OS. She probably wouldn't care whether or not she could read Word documents either, since I could convince her that some computers cannot read what other computers write (I consider it a true statement). The installation process would not be relevant for her, either. The biggest obstacle for Linux on _her_ desktop would probably be the games her grandchildren want to play when they visit her (coincidentally, the main purpose of her computer). -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] IBM is a pretty big company. [W. Gates] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
Title: RE: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost You can not compare seriously quantity and quality of games on Windows and Linux. And this is major use of computer at the most family homes... :( -- -Original Message- -- From: Eliran [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] -- Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 5:51 PM -- To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Subject: Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost -- -- -- Of course there are some exceptions, not all users care about the -- installation or reading/writing -- documents. But most do care. -- -- About the games it's depend about what kind of games... -- Graphic games such as -- Quake 1-3 and Unreal works there even better than on win -- machines, games are available to purchase from locki. --
Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
Title: RE: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost Not quality, it's the usage of the power of the video card. --a href="http://www.rootshell.be/~eg"Eliran G./a - Original Message - From: Michael Sternberg To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 6:15 PM Subject: RE: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost You can not compare seriously quantity and quality of games on Windows and Linux. And this is major use of computer at the most family homes... :( -- -Original Message- -- From: Eliran [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] -- Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 5:51 PM -- To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Subject: Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost -- -- -- Of course there are some exceptions, not all users care about the -- installation or reading/writing -- documents. But most do care. -- -- About the games it's depend about what kind of games... -- Graphic games such as -- Quake 1-3 and Unreal works there even better than on win -- machines, games are available to purchase from locki. --
Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
On Mon, Jul 22, 2002 at 05:51:15PM +0200, Eliran wrote: About the games it's depend about what kind of games... Graphic games such as Quake 1-3 and Unreal works there even better than on win machines, games are available to purchase from locki. Ehem, Loki's dead, has been for quite some time. Apparently there is little demand for Linux games. Regards, Yotam Rubin [...] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
Eliran wrote: Quake 1-3 and Unreal works there even better than on win machines, games are available to purchase from locki. sorry to point the obvious here, but loki went down in a mantle of flames (have I gotten my mythologies mixed up ? o:-) ) so no, there are no serious new games for linux, even the extensions to Heroes-III were never done (which I'm sure would have been quite easy for 3do to do, once they had the original port.) (by serious I mean commercially serious, so lets not start a game-quality flame-war anyone) -- a href=http://www.rootshell.be/~eg;Eliran G./a -- -- regards +--- + Guy Baruch , Plasma Laboratory, Weizmann Institue. + mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] + phone: 972-8-934-2211 +--- If you've got something in your pocket that says, In God We Trust on it, please send it to your local church where it belongs, before it's too late! = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
Eliran [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Some windows users (that I know) *don't* know how to install the OS. If we want these kind of users to use linux, we at least should make the installation easier. For the record, me and another member of this list were paid for aprox. 3 years for building and maitaining a system that allowed one of the biggest OEMs in the world (at least at the time) to install Windows machines. Moreover, the company we worked for was paid millions for this job by the OEM because the OEM engineering core tried to do the same (they used to install Win3.11 machines by building one system, setting it up right and mass copying the HD. With win95 they couldn't do that anymore) and the failure was such that certain people that worked for that OEM still carry the scares up till this day... :-) Now, why was that? where they stupid? well maybe so, but this wasn't the reason. After building such a system myself I can honestly say that it's one HELL of a difficult job and very easy to get wrong. VERY wrong. So.. not only Windows is not easy for mundanes to install, even proffesional find it difficult to install (at least in an automated fashion and in big quantaties). The only reason most people don't see this is because they get their machines installed already by automatic systems that were written by highly paid profesionals. And even then it sometimes doesn't work. Linux is so much *easier* to install then Windows it's not even funny and I truly feel I can say this with confidence in light of my exprienece. As for the 'Linux Lost' hugwash, I see where all my Windows-centric *programers* friends ended up working (if at all) and I see where I and other Linux people work and I know that *we* have won and will continue to win. All the rest is just intertia. Microsoft rose because of *develpers* and it goes down because of them too. It just takes time. Sorry Hetz old buddy, nothing personal... Cheers, Gilad. -- Gilad Ben-Yossef [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://benyossef.com Money talks, bullshit walks and GNU awks. -- Shachar Sun Shemesh, debt collector for the GNU/Yakuza = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Less competition outside of MS-Windows (was: Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost)
On 22 Jul 2002, Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote: As for the 'Linux Lost' hugwash, I see where all my Windows-centric *programers* friends ended up working (if at all) and I see where I and other Linux people work and I know that *we* have won and will continue to win. All the rest is just intertia. Microsoft rose because of *develpers* and it goes down because of them too. It just takes time. This confirms an amazing discovery which I had few months ago. I used to team up with someone, who worked exclusively in MS-Windows environment - MS-Access and Visual Basic. My target platforms were anything but Microsoft. After few good years, my associate ran into a dry spell during the last few months, while I didn't have idle time. My explanation of the observation is that the scene is full of Web designers. Those who are somewhat better - do MS-Access and Visual Basic. They are the ones with whom my associate needed to compete over projects. On the other hand, the platforms, which I target, are considered to be arcane, unpopular or difficult by the crowd, so I have less competition for those projects, which do come up. --- Omer There is no IGLU Cabal. There will be one, when the founders will finally have idle time due to the big economic crash of H2 2002. WARNING TO SPAMMERS: see at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Eliran [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Still people need some sort of help in installing linux until someone will come up with a solution that will make the installation more user-friendly (yes, yes...). 'till then, Linux is still not for the faint of heart... Aaarrrggghhh This myth has persisted for too long. You *cannot* have easy install on the PC compatible line -- it is a piece of shit (a cheap piece of shit, which is why I have two on my desk, but a piece of shit regardless). It is basically spare parts smashed together without thought or logic, created in the backroom of some two-bit company making its (laughingly small) margins off of slamming those parts together and getting them to more or less work together. To create an installer that reliably works across the wide range of crap that's out there today would take nothing short of a miracle. Windows hasn't done it, and neither will any GNU/Linux distribution. I am quite certain that installation on known hardware (that means, from a reliable hardware company like Sun Microsystems or Apple Computers) can be done via a hassle free installer. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
On Sun, 21 Jul 2002 18:51:09 +0300 (IDT) Tzafrir Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The user can be newbie and technophibic, as long as there is a NextDoorKid who can install the system and can drop by and help once in a while (isn't it the same with windows users?). It's exactly the same situation. This NextDoorKid is functioning as sys-admin; which, as you pointed out, is different than a user. While technically, Linux can be a fine desktop system for non-geeks today (you can ask my wife, I'm her sys-admin :-), what is needed to make it *widespread* are: - Many more NextDoorKids trained in Linux. This is actually improving via LUG's meetings, training (but we should start catching them earlier -- at school). I think some people on this list started like that. - Easy to get preinstalled computers (i.e: OEMs), most people buy their Windows computers preinstalled (at least in the US). This has improved somewhat in the last years (e.g:HP, IBM, Dell) but not enough (it's not as easy to order, and you don't get even part of the License savings). This is less in our control, but can be aleviated by using sufficient NextDoorKids (they'll be happy to install it anywhere they can...) Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron Don't worry about what anybody else is going to do. The best way to predict the future is to invent it. -- Alan Kay msg20603/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
On Saturday 20 July 2002 16:17, Matan Ziv-Av wrote: Ignoring hebrew support, there are no missing applications for most computer users. No? How about encyclopedias, design your dream house, geographic maps, travel planning, bookshelfs, etc.? You know, the kind of software you can buy in the US at Compusa for $5 a piece. Arie Folger -- It is absurd to seek to give an account of the matter to a man who cannot himself give an account of anything; for insofar as he is already like this, such a man is no better than a vegetable. -- Book IV of Aristotle's Metaphysics = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Desktop Linux -- Linux lost
On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Oron Peled wrote: On Sun, 21 Jul 2002 18:51:09 +0300 (IDT) Tzafrir Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The user can be newbie and technophibic, as long as there is a NextDoorKid who can install the system and can drop by and help once in a while (isn't it the same with windows users?). It's exactly the same situation. This NextDoorKid is functioning as sys-admin; which, as you pointed out, is different than a user. - Easy to get preinstalled computers (i.e: OEMs), most people buy their Windows computers preinstalled (at least in the US). This has improved somewhat in the last years (e.g:HP, IBM, Dell) but not enough (it's not as easy to order, and you don't get even part of the License savings). This is less in our control, but can be aleviated by using sufficient NextDoorKids (they'll be happy to install it anywhere they can...) and here is a business opportunity to those of you who have no jobs but extensive hebrew enabled linux knowledge. Go to some of the small computers shops in your area and offer them linux installation on the computers they sell for $10 / piece or even for free. They'll be able to sell their PCs cheaper because they don't have to pay to MS and they can offer support to their customers using your expertise. Be the NextDoorKid for some money. In the meanwhile work together with other similar people in other areas of the country to improve the hebrew part of the distros. Is there big money in this ? I don't think so but if you are successfull after a while you can make a nice living with linux. I wonder if anyone out there is doing this already ? -- Gabor = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
