Re: Linux takeup
On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 23:44:52 +1130 Mike Andrew [EMAIL PROTECTED] scribbled in frustration: On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 07:30, Michael Scottaline wrote: Do you happen to know what is used in their schools (or gymnasiums). No. I didn't look at this area. I'd only be guessing if I said anything. However, Europeans are xenophobic about Microsoft, particularly the French. One of the reasons for SuSE's popularity there, perphaps THE reason for it's popularity, is it is seen as non-American (versus Redhat). BTW there's a world of difference being protective or supportive of non-american product, versus being anti-american. The latter is not the case. == Agreed! I've never found even the French (notoroius *false* reputation as Anti-American) at all Anti. In fact, I felt quite comfortable even in Paris. I have to admit, I felt like an actual honored guest, as an American, in UK and the Netherlands, though. ;o) Mike PS: Hope everyone is enjoying a wonderful holiday season!! -- Alcohol is the anesthesia by which we endure the operation of life. -- George Bernard Shaw ___ Linux-users mailing list Archives, Digests, etc at http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Linux in German schools and elsehere, was: Linux takeup
Also sprach Michael Scottaline am Mittwoch, 19. Dezember 2001 21:00: = Verrry interesting, Mike. Thanks for the observations. I wonder what the feed back from our European friends on the list will be like. Do you happen to know what is used in their schools (or gymnasiums). I don't mean universities, or IT schools, but their regular high schools. What do their students get used to using? One of te key to MS success in the US is the near ubiquitous presence in the school systems [yes some schools use Macs, but increasingly it seems many more are moving to M$. I know; I've been working in the public school system for 28 years. Only the really interested computer types can be pursuaded to try linux (I have a few). Just my US$0.02, Mike Im a little late with my posting, because I have missed this thread up to now. At first sight, Linux seems to be booming here in Germany. There are a lot of discussions going on about changing to Linux in public administration even in highest places: Recently, there has been a 'lobby' war going on around the German federal parliament (Bundestag) between IBM, SuSe on one side and Microsoft on the other, because the IT responsibles of the Bundestag had announced to take into account Open Source software and Linux for their 5,000 pcs. Of course, this is primarily an issue of software costs, due to MS's licensing policy, but there is also a strong anti-monopolistic thread in the political discussion. Well, MS seems to be in a real bad mood about that... Up to know, the situation in companies is a bit different, usually there's NT networks. In my company, a publishing and printing house, we have two networks: about 300 NT clients for general administrative purposes and about the same number of Macs for those who take part in DTP production processes or graphics. At least, the real core of our publishing and printing system where the computer-to-plate processes are administered, is Linux based, but I can't tell you much about that. When going to a computer store for the home market, you usually have to bend down very low in front of the software racks for Linux distributions - it's xp all over! Linux on home desktops seems to be growing very slowly. Among the distros, SuSe is by far the most frequently sold (you know, this is Susie's homeland), I think RedHat comes next, but Caldera has vanished. Software prices over here are similar to those reported by Mike for Holland. SuSe 7.3 Personal Edition eg. is about 100 Marks, ie. 45 $. (BTW: The German Mark, as well as the Dutch Guilder, the French Franc and lots of others are going to vanish in a couple of days. Starting from January 1, there will be a currency update in most countries towards the Europe wide EURO which now is about 0.90 $.) Schools: There is a lot of computer madness going around, computers are virtually being pumped into schools (of course with a MS OS preinstalled, Macs don't play any substantial role there). Some politicians even have wild dreams about a notebook for each single student (whereas budgets for schoolbooks and other teaching materials are shrinking). On the other hand, there is no idea generally agreed upon about what to do with all these machines in schools. Linux in schools is getting stronger. A google search for 'Linux Schule' gives you more than 53,000 hits in German language (with both items!). There are hundreds of projects I believe, mainly maintained by teachers, to promote Linux. But there are obstacles too: - German teachers are overaged, around fifty (what am I talking about ...!) in the mean. They've just learned to do their homework with MS Word and should be very reluctant to a change. - School authorities try to promote Linux, especially for school networks (cheap!), but leave the administration to volunteering teachers who really exploit themselves, provided that they are found at all (see the age factor above). - Educational software in German language, for the home market as well as school specific, is nearly hundred per cent MS based, up to now there are very few platform independent (HTML, Java) projects. This is only a very brief personal overview, and I am neither an educational nor a Linux guru, so others might have different views. Klaus-Peter ___ Linux-users mailing list Archives, Digests, etc at http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Linux takeup
Folks, I've just come back from the Netherlands and I think many of you would be interested in the following (mercifully brief) observations I made while there. Europeans on this list would correct me, but these are impressions from an outsider. RS6000's are the name of the game. IBM have a big footprint. I was mildly surprised to see small flat boxes in the corner of just about any travel agent, small insurance office, even landscape gardening centers. I expected to see clusters of the usual wintel workstations and was mildly surprised to see the prevalence of single, AIX4 workstations, not clusters., just a single box doing it's job. The impression I got was NT? what's that? Big Bill is not a player there. (just an impression folks) Secondly, there is a push to migrate these boxen to AIX5L, read the letter L. It means Linux. Most (not all) of the IBM engineers I spoke to had a preference of converting there AIX4 supplied personal machines over to a Linux OS, there and then, for home use. It is common enough (like all engineering toads) to recieve the dregs from their customers. As upgrades were taking place to bigger better faster cpu's (based on the Motorola / IBM / Apple power PC), the older $7,000 boxes were given away, they were immediately 'upgraded' to Linux. There is a burgeoning, highly trained, skilled techno-hacker underpinning Linux in Europe. Thirdly, what Linux OS? Well here's more surprises for me. Not in the outcome, but the prevalance. Walk into just about *any* newsagent or bookstore, and they all have a computer section. Books, Software, Games, and, Operating Systems. In quantities stocked on shelves, Suse was 3:2 against Windows XP. Rehdat ran a poorish third. Only one bookstore stocked Caldera, there were no other distros I noticed (unless the Europeans use cunning packaging, or are French) Averaged prices were as follows in Dutch Guilders. (3 guilders= 1 dollar) Windows XP Professional *600 Windows XP Personal- Upgrade *300 SuSE 7.3 Professional *180 SuSE 7.3 Professional Upgrade *120 SuSE 7.3 Personal *120 Redhat 7.2*120 Some things to note, these weren't 'specials', these were walk in public mom and dad prices at the corner bookstore across Holland, not just Amsterdam. Average stocking on shelves was 3 x XP 5 x Suse 1 x Redhat It would be trite to say Windoze wasn't in the running. The massive games stockpile underpin it. But, the exposure to Linux was in your face and self evident. -- http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Linux-users mailing list Archives, Digests, etc at http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: Linux takeup
On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 05:05:21 +1130 Mike Andrew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Folks, I've just come back from the Netherlands and I think many of you would be interested in the following (mercifully brief) observations I made while there. Europeans on this list would correct me, but these are impressions from an outsider. major snippage Average stocking on shelves was 3 x XP 5 x Suse 1 x Redhat It would be trite to say Windoze wasn't in the running. The massive games stockpile underpin it. But, the exposure to Linux was in your face and self evident. = Verrry interesting, Mike. Thanks for the observations. I wonder what the feed back from our European friends on the list will be like. Do you happen to know what is used in their schools (or gymnasiums). I don't mean universities, or IT schools, but their regular high schools. What do their students get used to using? One of te key to MS success in the US is the near ubiquitous presence in the school systems [yes some schools use Macs, but increasingly it seems many more are moving to M$. I know; I've been working in the public school system for 28 years. Only the really interested computer types can be pursuaded to try linux (I have a few). Just my US$0.02, Mike -- The great question... which I have not been able to answer... is, `What does woman want?' -- Sigmund Freud _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Linux-users mailing list Archives, Digests, etc at http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: Linux takeup
[ snips ] On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 05:05:21 +1130 Mike Andrew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Folks, I've just come back from the Netherlands and I think many of you would be interested in the following (mercifully brief) observations I made while there. Europeans on this list would correct me, but these are impressions from an outsider. RS6000's are the name of the game. IBM have a big footprint. I was mildly surprised to see small flat boxes in the corner of just about any travel agent, small insurance office, even landscape gardening centers. I expected to see clusters of the usual wintel workstations and was mildly surprised to see the prevalence of single, AIX4 workstations, not clusters., just a single box doing it's job. The impression I got was NT? what's that? Big Bill is not a player there. (just an impression folks) Secondly, there is a push to migrate these boxen to AIX5L, read the letter L. It means Linux. Suspicions confirmed. I always thought the Dutch were intelligent people. -- Collins Richey Denver Area - 12DEC2001 - WWTLRD? gentoo_rc6 k2.4.17-pre8+ext3+xfce+sylpheed+galeon ___ Linux-users mailing list Archives, Digests, etc at http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: Linux takeup
Michael Scottaline babbled on about: do their students get used to using? One of te key to MS success in the US is the near ubiquitous presence in the school systems [yes some schools use Macs, but increasingly it seems many more are moving to M$. I know; funny you should say that... *every* (and that is NOT an exaggeration) school district I've been in has been *entirely* mac-based. in fact, our district just spent *oodles* replacing every computer in the district with grape imacs.. (ugly fricking things). they act like a pc is some kind of sub-standard thing.. -- Douglas J Hunley (doug at hunley.homeip.net) - Linux User #174778 Admin: http://linux.nf Admin: http://hunley.homeip.net But that's like saying that you know that you're going to build a car with four wheels and headlights - it's true, but the real bitch is in the details. - Linus ___ Linux-users mailing list Archives, Digests, etc at http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: Linux takeup
Douglas J Hunley wrote: funny you should say that... *every* (and that is NOT an exaggeration) school district I've been in has been *entirely* mac-based. in fact, our district just spent *oodles* replacing every computer in the district with grape imacs.. (ugly fricking things). they act like a pc is some kind of sub-standard thing.. Well, you don't expect them to be teaching computer science, do you? Much too hard. And if we go the other way towards easy, that's what Macs have a reputation for. Apple has always tried to encourage academic customers (the parochial school nearby has a lab full of Apple IIs!?!) Of course, I'm not sure what use computers are in schools, outside of computer science classes (for students, anyway, faculty is a different story). But that's another rant and I'm not an educator so I'll spare you... Dave ___ Linux-users mailing list Archives, Digests, etc at http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: Linux takeup
On Wednesday 19 December 2001 08:49 pm, Dave Anselmi wrote: Of course, I'm not sure what use computers are in schools, outside of computer science classes (for students, anyway, faculty is a different story). But that's another rant and I'm not an educator so I'll spare you... Dave Good grief Dave! crawl out of your cave. How many times have students gone into a library requiring a certain text book to complete their asignment. Only to find that book won't be back until three days after their project due date. How about using an encyclopedia that is so outdated that the borders and names of some countries are incorrect. I do not know how things are done in your area, but here in the Okanagan valley a computer plus the internet equals one heck of a library at a students finger tips. The benifits are too numerous to list here, so to save bandwidth we'll end it here. Ted Ozolins (VE7TVO) Westbank, B.C. ___ Linux-users mailing list Archives, Digests, etc at http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
