Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-21 Thread Bruce Marshall

On Friday 21 September 2001 14:22 pm, Rick Sivernell wrote:
> Personally I think you are just full of it. You have not given up any right
> what so ever. Some restrictions are required for all of iur own safety. We
> have it better here than any where else on this planet and that will always
> be true. Get your self a US flag & start waving it, you will feel much
> better.

Ask a VFR pilot whether he has given up any rights...   He can't fly at the 
present time.  I'm sure there are more examples.


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MOVE THIS THREAD (was Re: I am afraid...)

2001-09-21 Thread Douglas J. Hunley

On Friday 21 September 2001 14:22, Rick Sivernell babbled:
> Personally I think you are just full of it. You have not given up any right
> what so ever. Some restrictions are required for all of iur own safety. We
> have it better here than any where else on this planet and that will always
> be true. Get your self a US flag & start waving it, you will feel much
> better.
>
> cheers my friends

all right guys, either move this thread to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or end it please.
thanks!
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-21 Thread Rick Sivernell

Personally I think you are just full of it. You have not given up any right 
what so ever. Some restrictions are required for all of iur own safety. We 
have it better here than any where else on this planet and that will always 
be true. Get your self a US flag & start waving it, you will feel much better.

cheers my friends
-- 
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Dallas, Texas  75287
972 306-2296
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-21 Thread Glenn Williams

On Friday 21 September 2001 06:52, you wrote:

[snip]

>
> I just heard on the radio that the FAA has now restricted flying
> within *3* miles of any outdoor sporting event or assembledge of
> people..   This would include a high school football game.
>
> They didn't mention any altitude with this.   This to me would
> essentially ban all flight.  There's no way to let pilots know where
> these 'restricted areas' are or to easily avoid them even if the
> pilot did.
>
> A real overreaction in my opinion.



Right you are.  Someone obviously did not think this through.


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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-21 Thread Richard Thompson

Amen

- Richard

Lee wrote:

> On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, you wrote:
> > >Snip
> > The Framers didn't have to worry about Islamic madmen in jets flying into high
> > rise buildings. The Framers didn't anticipate nuclear weapons.
> > Joel
>
> Every time some zealot wishes to protect us from some threat , be it
> Nazis,Japanese, communists, KKK  Kluckers crime ect, the first call that goes
> iut is to either  give the government more power or to limit the rights of the
> people.. The excuse given is always ," the framers of the Constitution
> couldn't have envisioned such a threat." Bull Pucky! The framers didn't have to
> envision all furuer threats to us. They realized that the rights of the people
> are timeless and that any threat was transitory. The permanet threat is the
> willingness to give up those rights for fear of the threat of the moment. Do
> that and the Muslim fanitacs have won. Benjamin franklin put it wishly," Those
> who  would give up Liberty for security deserve neither Liberty or security.
>
> The plain truth is that the same government that is so blithly asking us to
> hand over  our rights and the airline industry  bear a large measure of
> responsibility in the WTC disaster. After it became fashionable to high jack
> airliners federal marshals were put on planes and airport security was
> increased. After flight 103 airport security was really beefed up. What
> happened? Simple the airlines didn't like paying their part  of the cost of
> security and government dropped the sky marshal program to save a few bucks. Do
> you really think that a bunch of towel heads armed with knives or bomb threats
> could have overcome a well armed and trained sky marshal? Airport security
> followed the same sad fate as the sky marshal program. Instead of hiring
> intelligent movitivate personnel the program became nothing more than a
> political correct hiring program to giving well paying jobs to people based on
> their inability to get another job.
>
> Yet, with this sad history of government failure and greed there are those who
> in the name of security propose to hand over the rights, that generations of
> Americans have shed their blood to protect, to the same government that set us
> up for WTC. Personally, I'll throw my lot in with Ben Franklin.
>
> Lee
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-21 Thread Lee

On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, you wrote:
> >Snip
> The Framers didn't have to worry about Islamic madmen in jets flying into high
> rise buildings. The Framers didn't anticipate nuclear weapons.
> Joel

Every time some zealot wishes to protect us from some threat , be it
Nazis,Japanese, communists, KKK  Kluckers crime ect, the first call that goes
iut is to either  give the government more power or to limit the rights of the
people.. The excuse given is always ," the framers of the Constitution
couldn't have envisioned such a threat." Bull Pucky! The framers didn't have to
envision all furuer threats to us. They realized that the rights of the people
are timeless and that any threat was transitory. The permanet threat is the
willingness to give up those rights for fear of the threat of the moment. Do
that and the Muslim fanitacs have won. Benjamin franklin put it wishly," Those
who  would give up Liberty for security deserve neither Liberty or security.

The plain truth is that the same government that is so blithly asking us to
hand over  our rights and the airline industry  bear a large measure of
responsibility in the WTC disaster. After it became fashionable to high jack
airliners federal marshals were put on planes and airport security was
increased. After flight 103 airport security was really beefed up. What
happened? Simple the airlines didn't like paying their part  of the cost of
security and government dropped the sky marshal program to save a few bucks. Do
you really think that a bunch of towel heads armed with knives or bomb threats
could have overcome a well armed and trained sky marshal? Airport security
followed the same sad fate as the sky marshal program. Instead of hiring
intelligent movitivate personnel the program became nothing more than a
political correct hiring program to giving well paying jobs to people based on
their inability to get another job. 

Yet, with this sad history of government failure and greed there are those who
in the name of security propose to hand over the rights, that generations of
Americans have shed their blood to protect, to the same government that set us
up for WTC. Personally, I'll throw my lot in with Ben Franklin.

Lee
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-21 Thread Bruce Marshall

On Friday 21 September 2001 3:22 am, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
> And, I must also ask, what freedoms are lost now? CNN (don't ya just love
> 'em) have asked the question, and the people they asked have said that if
> that is what it takes, then maybe it will be that way.  But this is NOT the
> same thing as it actually having happened.

I just heard on the radio that the FAA has now restricted flying within *3* 
miles of any outdoor sporting event or assembledge of people..   This would 
include a high school football game.

They didn't mention any altitude with this.   This to me would essentially 
ban all flight.  There's no way to let pilots know where these 'restricted 
areas' are or to easily avoid them even if the pilot did.

A real overreaction in my opinion.

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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-21 Thread T. WATKINS

On Thursday 20 September 2001 17:29, you wrote:
> Rick Sivernell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> > Joel
> >
> >You have not or will you or anyone else for that matter loose
> > anyrights & privileges. 
[snipt]
> Must respectfully disagree.  The history of every crisis point in U.S. (or
> other nations) history contains a list of either blanket usurpations of
> power, or of "temporary limitations" which have become permanent
> impositions against a large number of the points addressed specifically in
> both the Constitution and the Amendments thereto.
[snipt]
> The list goes on.  There's already talk of more limitations on, and
> snooping of, internet services.  Yes, the limitations on government can
> make it more difficult for federal, state, and local authorities - but that
> was knowingly the intent of the Framers.  With reason.
> Rickf
Well said.
The price of liberty is eternal vigilance by the citizenry.  Some have 
priorities which supersede such vigilance, I fear.
Tom W.
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-21 Thread Joel Hammer

> One of the first cries raised after the bombing of the Federal Building in
> Oklahoma City was for more gun limits to prevent acts of terrorism in the
> U.S.  Totally unrelated, but perpetrated and accepted in the interests of
> security.
> 
> The "RICO Act" - confiscation of property without trial or conviction, done
> in the name of security and the "War on Drugs".
> 
> The list goes on.  There's already talk of more limitations on, and snooping
> of, internet services.  Yes, the limitations on government can make it more
> difficult for federal, state, and local authorities - but that was knowingly
> the intent of the Framers.  With reason.
>
I must disagree.
You forget the German hysteria during WWI.
My grandfather had to change his name or lose his job. Landecker was too
German. Landley was acceptable. The German press in this country, the
second largest after English, was basically put out of business. 
It abated after the war. 
During WWII, the Japanese Americans on the West Coast were put into
concentration camps after being forced to sell their property at bargain
prices. But, they were let back out after the war.
BTW, FDR insisted on this action. I believe J. Edgar Hoover said it wasn't
necessary.
So, war time controls are eased after the war.
Joel

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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-21 Thread Roger Oberholtzer

On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:29:35 -
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

| Rick Sivernell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
| > Joel
| > 
| >You have not or will you or anyone else for that matter loose anyrights & 
| > privileges. That is unless you screw up. I think you are talking about the 
| > war on Terrorism, I know you will correct me if I am wrong here , But 
| > every body gets into this act, one way or another. All I can say to you & 
| > others GET A GRIPE.
| 
| Must respectfully disagree.  The history of every crisis point in U.S. (or
| other nations) history contains a list of either blanket usurpations of
| power, or of "temporary limitations" which have become permanent impositions
| against a large number of the points addressed specifically in both the
| Constitution and the Amendments thereto.

Perhaps just meaning that the 'increased loss' of freedom gets everyone's
notice at such times. All the other freedom loss through government
policy that increases little by little is not so obvious. But I think the
latter results in more freedom loss over time. Of course, neither are
in anyone's real best interest (Although that is what they typically claim
to be.)

And, I must also ask, what freedoms are lost now? CNN (don't ya just love 'em)
have asked the question, and the people they asked have said that if that
is what it takes, then maybe it will be that way.  But this is NOT the same
thing as it actually having happened.

Still, keep your eyes open!

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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-21 Thread Roger Oberholtzer

On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:45:23 -0400
Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

| In a way it's the noise ones with two x chromosomes that cause part of the problem. 
|A lot of
| conservative Muslims are outraged by women in the military. In most Muslim countries 
|they
| aren't  even allowed to drive cars. But, in Saudi Arabia the American military has 
|sent along
| quit a few female soldiers. Can't do anything less. To discriminate against them and 
|leave them
| state side would be unconstitutional. Unfortunately, most Muslims in foreign 
|countries could
| give a fig about the US Constitution and it's rights.

And the GI women in Saudi Arabia really created a stir! They were let jog in
shorts in the center of town, where they stayed. And they were seen to be
driving cars. The morality police (not a part of the government) went crazy.
They could do nothing to these women. But, after the army left, they were a bit
more hostile towards western women who they felt were not being modest enough.
And the women started demanding that they be able to drive. There were rumors
and denials in the papers. Ultimately, nothing happened. But, I don't think
the women know whow this works in their favor as well (low seriousness factor
here - but not wrong either). They instead have drivers who deal with the really
terrible Riyadh traffic and parking problems. Husbands have to take the wife
grocery shopping. I have never seen so many families shopping together as in
Saudi Arabia. The father has to take the kids here and there. Just think how
your life would be if your wife did not drive and you had to do this? This
really does not make life easier for the men. They really should wise up.
Even the question about how women must dress is I think looked at too narrowly.
Ever see how an Arab man dresses? He is totally covered from head to foot.
They all wear the same white dress and picnic tablecloth head covering. No
variety at all. They wear this at all times in and out of the house. The women
can dress as they like at home. Only when they go out do they need to cover
up. The women all in black and the men all in white. Not too much difference.

I don't agree with all this, but at least recognize that the men also have
many additional restrictions because of this.


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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-21 Thread Alan Jackson

On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:29:35 -  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Rick Sivernell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> > Joel
> > 
> >You have not or will you or anyone else for that matter loose anyrights & 
> > privileges. That is unless you screw up. I think you are talking about the 
> > war on Terrorism, I know you will correct me if I am wrong here , But 
> > every body gets into this act, one way or another. All I can say to you & 
> > others GET A GRIPE.
> 
> Must respectfully disagree.  The history of every crisis point in U.S. (or
> other nations) history contains a list of either blanket usurpations of
> power, or of "temporary limitations" which have become permanent impositions
> against a large number of the points addressed specifically in both the
> Constitution and the Amendments thereto.

It has been proposed that the government be given a backdoor into *all*
encryption codes. These are the guys that couldn't find Ames for 15 years.
What would happen if terrorists bought all the world's encryption keys
from a crooked government employee? 

Being unified against a very real threat doesn't mean that we should allow
the government to commit stupid actions without protesting.
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-21 Thread Joel Hammer

> of, internet services.  Yes, the limitations on government can make it more
> difficult for federal, state, and local authorities - but that was knowingly
> the intent of the Framers.  With reason.
The Framers didn't have to worry about Islamic madmen in jets flying into high
rise buildings. The Framers didn't anticipate nuclear weapons.
Joel

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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-20 Thread rickf

Rick Sivernell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> Joel
> 
>You have not or will you or anyone else for that matter loose anyrights & 
> privileges. That is unless you screw up. I think you are talking about the 
> war on Terrorism, I know you will correct me if I am wrong here , But 
> every body gets into this act, one way or another. All I can say to you & 
> others GET A GRIPE.

Must respectfully disagree.  The history of every crisis point in U.S. (or
other nations) history contains a list of either blanket usurpations of
power, or of "temporary limitations" which have become permanent impositions
against a large number of the points addressed specifically in both the
Constitution and the Amendments thereto.

In many cases it has been acheived by redefining the meaning of the words:
i.e.: most of the controversy about so called "Gun Control" pivots on the
meanings of the words "militia" (understood to be constituted of all free
able-bodied men) and of the word "infringed".  There are communities which
have perpetrated very severe restrictions on ownership of weapons simply by
the way they defined the word "infringed".  Creative moral terpitude on the
part of our "public servants".

One of the first cries raised after the bombing of the Federal Building in
Oklahoma City was for more gun limits to prevent acts of terrorism in the
U.S.  Totally unrelated, but perpetrated and accepted in the interests of
security.

The "RICO Act" - confiscation of property without trial or conviction, done
in the name of security and the "War on Drugs".

The list goes on.  There's already talk of more limitations on, and snooping
of, internet services.  Yes, the limitations on government can make it more
difficult for federal, state, and local authorities - but that was knowingly
the intent of the Framers.  With reason.

Rickf


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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-20 Thread Rick Sivernell

On Thursday 20 September 2001 12:52 pm, you wrote:
> Preamble "... provide for the common defense ..."
>
> Article 1, Section 8 - Powers of Congress - To declare war, to raise and
> support armies, provide for calling forth the militia, and organize, arm
> and discipline the militia.
>
> Amendments - Article 8 - Abolition of slavery and involuntary servitude,
> except as punishment upon conviction for a crime.
>
> Being asked to defend your country may well be a total pain in the ass, it
> might even cost you your life, but it is neither slavery nor involuntary
> servitude.
>
> - Richard
Joel

   You have not or will you or anyone else for that matter loose anyrights & 
privileges. That is unless you screw up. I think you are talking about the 
war on Terrorism, I know you will correct me if I am wrong here , But 
every body gets into this act, one way or another. All I can say to you & 
others GET A GRIPE.

cheers
-- 
Rick Sivernell
Dallas, Texas  75287
972 306-2296
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Caldera Open Linux eWorkStation 3.1
Registered Linux User

        .~.
       / v \
      /( _ )\
        ^ ^
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-20 Thread Richard Thompson

Preamble "... provide for the common defense ..."

Article 1, Section 8 - Powers of Congress - To declare war, to raise and support 
armies, provide
for calling forth the militia, and organize, arm and discipline the militia.

Amendments - Article 8 - Abolition of slavery and involuntary servitude, except as 
punishment
upon conviction for a crime.

Being asked to defend your country may well be a total pain in the ass, it might even 
cost you
your life, but it is neither slavery nor involuntary servitude.

- Richard

Joel Hammer wrote:

> >
> > What rights have you been denied. Only young men make good cannon fodder
> Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
> There is also something about involuntary servitude in the constitution.
> Joel
>
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-20 Thread Lee

In a way it's the noise ones with two x chromosomes that cause part of the problem. A 
lot of
conservative Muslims are outraged by women in the military. In most Muslim countries 
they
aren't  even allowed to drive cars. But, in Saudi Arabia the American military has 
sent along
quit a few female soldiers. Can't do anything less. To discriminate against them and 
leave them
state side would be unconstitutional. Unfortunately, most Muslims in foreign countries 
could
give a fig about the US Constitution and it's rights.


Rick Sivernell wrote:

> On Wednesday 19 September 2001 09:20 pm, you wrote:
> > Isn't it funny, but when we start talking about the need to defend rights
> > and freedom, the first thing we do is to suspend the
> > civil rights of all honest, healthy, straight men between 18-?40 (How high
> > will they go? And, they don't draft felons, do they? Or the other, very
> > noisy half of the adult population, you know, the ones with TWO X
> > chromosomes.)
> > Makes you think.
> > Joel
> > ___
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>
> What rights have you been denied. Only young men make good cannon fodder
> anyway.
>
> cheers
> --
> Rick Sivernell
> Dallas, Texas  75287
> 972 306-2296
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Caldera Open Linux eWorkStation 3.1
> Registered Linux User
>
> .~.
>/ v \
>   /( _ )\
> ^ ^
> In Linux we trust!
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-20 Thread Joel Hammer

> 
> What rights have you been denied. Only young men make good cannon fodder 
Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
There is also something about involuntary servitude in the constitution.
Joel

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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-20 Thread Rick Sivernell

On Wednesday 19 September 2001 09:20 pm, you wrote:
> Isn't it funny, but when we start talking about the need to defend rights
> and freedom, the first thing we do is to suspend the
> civil rights of all honest, healthy, straight men between 18-?40 (How high
> will they go? And, they don't draft felons, do they? Or the other, very
> noisy half of the adult population, you know, the ones with TWO X
> chromosomes.)
> Makes you think.
> Joel
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What rights have you been denied. Only young men make good cannon fodder 
anyway.

cheers
-- 
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Dallas, Texas  75287
972 306-2296
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Caldera Open Linux eWorkStation 3.1
Registered Linux User

        .~.
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      /( _ )\
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-19 Thread Joel Hammer

Isn't it funny, but when we start talking about the need to defend rights
and freedom, the first thing we do is to suspend the
civil rights of all honest, healthy, straight men between 18-?40 (How high will they
go? And, they don't draft felons, do they? Or the other, very noisy half of
the adult population, you know, the ones with TWO X chromosomes.) 
Makes you think.
Joel
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Re: [OT] Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-18 Thread Ronnie Gauthier

Not your normal police procedures but most definently standard swat or cert 
procedure.

On Wednesday 19 September 2001 00:18, Chang wrote:
> I thought you were about police procedures... be civilized a little bit...
>
> Ronnie Gauthier wrote:
> >uh, http://www.remington.com
> >
> >On Tuesday 18 September 2001 01:03, Chang wrote:
> >>you guys interseted me,. where is the full documentation for these?
> >>iinternal useonly? or you guys were playing with numbers? :)
> >>
>

Ronnie
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[OT] Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-18 Thread Chang

 I thought you were about police procedures... be civilized a little bit...

Ronnie Gauthier wrote:

>uh, http://www.remington.com
>
>On Tuesday 18 September 2001 01:03, Chang wrote:
>
>>you guys interseted me,. where is the full documentation for these?
>>iinternal useonly? or you guys were playing with numbers? :)
>>
>>Ronnie Gauthier wrote:
>>
>>>I think that shortly we will be able to use rule .270 or .300 under the
>>>personal choice option.
>>>Also, I do believe that rule .50 should be seriously considered as a good
>>>long range solution.
>>>
>>>On Monday 17 September 2001 21:07, dep wrote:
>>>
On Monday 17 September 2001 21:07, Chang wrote:
| Then find out why Ladden did it? Talk to him before making a
| military arrest.  :)

as i understand it, our arrest of him will be under a provision of
british military law, rule .303. we had a version of that, rule .308,
but we wimped out and now are stuck with our own rule .223.

>>_
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>>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
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>



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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-18 Thread dep

On Tuesday 18 September 2001 19:12, Lee wrote:

| Not so wimpy. The 223 has more knock down than the .303. The bullet
| moves at 3,300 ft/sec and spins at anywhere between 18,000 to
| 24,000 rpm (depending on rifling twist). When it hits something
| soft it tends to keyhole (turns end for end) at the same time it is
| still spinning at 24,000 rpm. It's like getting hit with a ball of
| whirling razor blades.  Its only draw back is that it is a lousy
| round in brush, that's where the heavier slower .303 has an
| advantage. There aren't a lot of bushes in Afghanistan.

i'll go with the big, heavy, slower bullet everytime. we don't have 
true hydrostatic shock in the .223 yet -- jeff cooper wrote 
wonderfully 25 years ago about a .17 spitzer out of a gas-operated 
pistol at 4,500 fps. *that* would produce hydrostatic shock.

and i've yet to see *any* reputable study that gives greater stopping 
power to a smaller slug. the advantage of the big slug is that it 
expends its energy in the target, instead of whatever is behind the 
target.

-- 
dep

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;  
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand;
Beware the  
People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-18 Thread dep

On Tuesday 18 September 2001 09:18, Glenn Williams wrote:

| How about this rule: U.S. Pistol, cal .45, M1911A1

which we also wimped out on, adopting the ridiculous 9mm instead. we 
need to go back to the colt, and we need to fully embrace .308, and 
anybody who ain't man enough for it ought to be doing something else.
-- 
dep

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;  
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand;
Beware the  
People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-18 Thread Lee

Ronnie Gauthier wrote:

>Snip

> > >>as i understand it, our arrest of him will be under a provision of
> > >>british military law, rule .303. we had a version of that, rule .308,
> > >>but we wimped out and now are stuck with our own rule .223.

Not so wimpy. The 223 has more knock down than the .303. The bullet moves at 3,300 
ft/sec and
spins at anywhere between 18,000 to 24,000 rpm (depending on rifling twist). When it 
hits
something soft it tends to keyhole (turns end for end) at the same time it is still 
spinning at
24,000 rpm. It's like getting hit with a ball of whirling razor blades.  Its only draw 
back is
that it is a lousy round in brush, that's where the heavier slower .303 has an 
advantage. There
aren't a lot of bushes in Afghanistan.

>
> >
> > _
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> > ___
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> --
> Ronnie
> ==
> Life can be a dream; or it can be a nightmare
> it's all in your mind
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-18 Thread Rick Forrister

On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:23:58 -0700
Bill Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 08:14:15PM -0400, Joel Hammer wrote:
> >> >People almost invariably choose personal security over "freedom".
> >> >Any rational person would.
> >> 
> >> Speak for yourself.  I prefer ``Live Free or Die''.
> >
> The Brazilians understand:
>   http://www.sierratimes.com/archive/files/sep/17/arbz091701.htm
> 

Yep.  They got the point.  Someone should probably suggest that a request be made for
the use of Glazer rounds inflight.

rickf

-- 
"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be
properly armed."
-- Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-188
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RE: I am afraid...

2001-09-18 Thread Wil McGilvery

Looks like a practical joke to me.

"In case of hijacking - please aim for the chest"

Regards,
 
Wil McGilvery
Manager, Digital Media

 
Lynch Technologies Inc.
416-744-7191
1-888-622-3729
416-744-0406  FAX
www.lynchdigital.com
 
 
 

 
 
 

-Original Message-
From: Rick Forrister [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 3:09 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: I am afraid...

On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:23:58 -0700
Bill Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 08:14:15PM -0400, Joel Hammer wrote:
> >> >People almost invariably choose personal security over "freedom".
> >> >Any rational person would.
> >> 
> >> Speak for yourself.  I prefer ``Live Free or Die''.
> >
> The Brazilians understand:
>   http://www.sierratimes.com/archive/files/sep/17/arbz091701.htm
> 

Yep.  They got the point.  Someone should probably suggest that a request be made for
the use of Glazer rounds inflight.

rickf

-- 
"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be
properly armed."
-- Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-188
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-18 Thread Bill Campbell

On Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 08:14:15PM -0400, Joel Hammer wrote:
>> >People almost invariably choose personal security over "freedom".
>> >Any rational person would.
>> 
>> Speak for yourself.  I prefer ``Live Free or Die''.
>
The Brazilians understand:
http://www.sierratimes.com/archive/files/sep/17/arbz091701.htm

Bill
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URL: http://www.celestial.com/

The day-to-day travails of the IBM programmer are so amusing to most of
us who are fortunate enough never to have been one -- like watching
Charlie Chaplin trying to cook a shoe.
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-18 Thread Ronnie Gauthier

sorry it is now superceeded by Browning rule 9mm.

On Tuesday 18 September 2001 08:18, Glenn Williams wrote:
> On Monday 17 September 2001 20:07, you wrote:
> > On Monday 17 September 2001 21:07, Chang wrote:
> > | Then find out why Ladden did it? Talk to him before making a
> > | military arrest.  :)
> >
> > as i understand it, our arrest of him will be under a provision of
> > british military law, rule .303. we had a version of that, rule .308,
> > but we wimped out and now are stuck with our own rule .223.
>
> How about this rule: U.S. Pistol, cal .45, M1911A1
>
> Glenn

-- 
Ronnie
==
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it's all in your mind
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-18 Thread Glenn Williams

On Monday 17 September 2001 20:07, you wrote:
> On Monday 17 September 2001 21:07, Chang wrote:
> | Then find out why Ladden did it? Talk to him before making a
> | military arrest.  :)
>
> as i understand it, our arrest of him will be under a provision of
> british military law, rule .303. we had a version of that, rule .308,
> but we wimped out and now are stuck with our own rule .223.

How about this rule: U.S. Pistol, cal .45, M1911A1

Glenn

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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-18 Thread Rick Sivernell

Actually the best is the M-79 with 40 mm shotgun shells. I had a bunch in Nam 
while I was flying in the Ashaw valley. Next was the M-16 with our special 
made clips, 4 each taped together at 90 degree angles, 80 quick rounds 
please

cheers
-- 
Rick Sivernell
Dallas, Texas  75287
972 306-2296
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Caldera Open Linux eWorkStation 3.1
Registered Linux User

        .~.
       / v \
      /( _ )\
        ^ ^
In Linux we trust!
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-18 Thread Rick Sivernell

Dennis

  I have viewed the web site you had , 
http://www.mn.afrl.af.mil/public/mnme/mnme.html ,& I have just one question 
here. Does SBLneed to take it oral or as a supository. Either way I think it 
will releive any heart burn. 

cheers
-- 
Rick Sivernell
Dallas, Texas  75287
972 306-2296
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Registered Linux User

        .~.
       / v \
      /( _ )\
        ^ ^
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-17 Thread Ronnie Gauthier


My personal choice is a 12ga with 00

On Tuesday 18 September 2001 01:38, dep wrote:
> On Tuesday 18 September 2001 02:03, Chang wrote:
> | you guys interseted me,. where is the full documentation for these?
> | iinternal useonly? or you guys were playing with numbers? :)
>
> we're talking the calibre of service longarms. .303 is the standard
> british cartridge of most of the 20th century. .308 is the ballsy
> nato cartridge, while .223 is the pipsqueak m-16 round. (throughout
> history, he who has the biggest bore wins the war.) .50 is a dandy
> big-bore cartridge; .45, though not mentioned, is what will greet and
> instantly stop anybody coming uninvited through the front door here
> if i can't get to the shotgun.

-- 
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==
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it's all in your mind
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-17 Thread Ronnie Gauthier

uh, http://www.remington.com

On Tuesday 18 September 2001 01:03, Chang wrote:
> you guys interseted me,. where is the full documentation for these?
> iinternal useonly? or you guys were playing with numbers? :)
>
> Ronnie Gauthier wrote:
> >I think that shortly we will be able to use rule .270 or .300 under the
> >personal choice option.
> >Also, I do believe that rule .50 should be seriously considered as a good
> >long range solution.
> >
> >On Monday 17 September 2001 21:07, dep wrote:
> >>On Monday 17 September 2001 21:07, Chang wrote:
> >>| Then find out why Ladden did it? Talk to him before making a
> >>| military arrest.  :)
> >>
> >>as i understand it, our arrest of him will be under a provision of
> >>british military law, rule .303. we had a version of that, rule .308,
> >>but we wimped out and now are stuck with our own rule .223.
>
> _
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> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
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==
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it's all in your mind
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-17 Thread dep

On Tuesday 18 September 2001 02:03, Chang wrote:
| you guys interseted me,. where is the full documentation for these?
| iinternal useonly? or you guys were playing with numbers? :)

we're talking the calibre of service longarms. .303 is the standard 
british cartridge of most of the 20th century. .308 is the ballsy 
nato cartridge, while .223 is the pipsqueak m-16 round. (throughout 
history, he who has the biggest bore wins the war.) .50 is a dandy 
big-bore cartridge; .45, though not mentioned, is what will greet and 
instantly stop anybody coming uninvited through the front door here 
if i can't get to the shotgun.

-- 
dep

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;  
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand;
Beware the  
People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-17 Thread Chang

you guys interseted me,. where is the full documentation for these?
iinternal useonly? or you guys were playing with numbers? :)

Ronnie Gauthier wrote:

>I think that shortly we will be able to use rule .270 or .300 under the 
>personal choice option.
>Also, I do believe that rule .50 should be seriously considered as a good 
>long range solution.
>
>On Monday 17 September 2001 21:07, dep wrote:
>
>>On Monday 17 September 2001 21:07, Chang wrote:
>>| Then find out why Ladden did it? Talk to him before making a
>>| military arrest.  :)
>>
>>as i understand it, our arrest of him will be under a provision of
>>british military law, rule .303. we had a version of that, rule .308,
>>but we wimped out and now are stuck with our own rule .223.
>>
>



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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-17 Thread dep

On Tuesday 18 September 2001 00:12, Ralph Sanford wrote:

a tremendous amout, all of it *exactly* right, the definition of 
those willing to stand up on their hind legs and roar as opposed to 
those who walk on all fours and whimper.
-- 
dep

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;  
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand;
Beware the  
People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-17 Thread Ralph Sanford

On Mon, 2001-09-17 at 18:14, Joel Hammer wrote:
> > >People almost invariably choose personal security over "freedom".
> > >Any rational person would.
> > 
> > Speak for yourself.  I prefer ``Live Free or Die''.
> 
> I would rather show a photo id to get on a plane than be hijacked.

Of course with every political jurisdiction having its own different
looking version of photo ID, fake photo ID would have a reasonable
chance of working.  Will we solve that by having the UN issue universal
photo ID? 


> I would rather the state license drivers of cars so I don't get killed by an
> incompetent driver.

If only the acquisition of a drivers license did prevent incompetent
drivers.

> I would rather cameras be used to screen faces in public places than have a
> bomb go off during my third beer.

If Big Brother is watching you that closely what makes you think you
will be allowed to have 3 beers before the state takes away your drivers
license to prevent you from being incompetent behind the wheel of a car?

> I would rather be stopped and frisked for weapons than be shot by a mugger
> in New York City.

I would far rather that the cops spent their time and effort to catch
that mugger otherwise a personal weapon in my possession would do me
more good when dealing with a mugger.

> I would rather have packages inspected carefully by the postal service than
> get a letter bomb.

The Postal Service protecting you??  Inspecting to the postal types
means opening and snooping.  Allegedly looking for explosives one day,
as if they knew what to look for, then asking you if you paid all the
sales taxes due on those items in the parcel the next day.

> I would rather the INS screen the border very carefully than to have known Arab
> terrorists  and their associates book commercial flights and fly commercial
> jets into high rise buildings.

Actually I have to sort of agree with you here.  The Border Guards of
any country really should be guarding their borders.  Consistency and
efficiency in their actions is probably too much to ask for. 

> There is no such thing as absolute freedom. That would be called anarchy.
> Even animals have a social order and rules.
> Joel
> 

Animal social order is called animal rule or law of the jungle and you
really ought to see the blood and mess when my German Shepard tries to
change the social order over the Rottweiller.

Given a choice between being a Freeman, with all the rights AND
rsponsibilites that entails, or the option of being a Serf with no
responsiblity to look after myself, I will choose to be a Freeman.  Yes,
that does entail the possibility of putting my steel up against another
mans steel in defence of country or way of life.  Unfortunately too many
others today would be willing to be serfs, as long as they had their
beer and hockey.

Ralph



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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-17 Thread dep

On Monday 17 September 2001 22:57, Ronnie Gauthier wrote:
| I think that shortly we will be able to use rule .270 or .300 under
| the personal choice option.
| Also, I do believe that rule .50 should be seriously considered as
| a good long range solution.

here's a not-bad choice:

http://www.hkpro.com/oicw.htm
-- 
dep

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;  
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand;
Beware the  
People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-17 Thread JackM

Ben was a wise man who probably would have been running Linux if
computers were around in his time.  His words still hold true.  

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> I am afraid...
> 
> I am afraid of those who would, in mindless persuit of some increase in
> security discard the freedoms that so many have fought and died to preserve.
> Benjamin Franklin observed that "those who would sacrifice essential
> freedoms for a little security will soon have neither."  If we sacrifice
> any of the Bill of Rights for the sake of some false image of safety,
> whether acting in some "War Against Drugs", or in a "War Against Terror",
> the enemy has already won.  Finding a way to achieve our goals that does
> not demolish our own foundations in freedom is sometimes hard - but
> always worthy.
> 
> I am afraid of those who would blindly strike at a wide area in persuit of
> vengence and security.  The feelings of satisfaction are only temporary,
> and the consequences of ill considered action last a long time.
> 
> I am afraid of those who are overeager to "send in the troups" to destroy
> any possible target that even _might_ be involved in supporting those who
> have committed terrorism.  "The troups" are not mindless grunts waiting to
> die as a tool of policy.  They are _your_ brothers/sisters/mothers/fathers/
> cousins.  Both the enlisted and officer corps are often highly educated and
> trained.  They are sworn to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution.
> Before you blindly scream "SEND IN THE TROUPS", ask yourself if you are so
> sure of the cause in which you send them that YOU YOURSELF ARE WILLING TO
> VOLUNTEER TO BE ONE OF "THE TROUPS".  Is this cause worthy of the expenditure
> of their lives?  Is it worthy of yours?
> 
> I am afraid of those who are blindly attacking American muslims and anyone
> who appears to be of middle-eastern descent.  In the barbaric attack on the
> WTC and Pentagon, one of the goals is to deepen the rift between communities
> in the U.S., both creating more civil unrest, and widening the base of
> concealment and operations available here.  You serve our enemies well when
> you mouth the words or take the actions of bigotry, racism, and hatred.
> 
> I am afraid for the families of those in the Reserves and National Guard.
> We heard in the Gulf War that there was no "War Tax".  There _WAS_ a war
> tax.  It was paid by the Reserves and National Guard, who reported for duty
> and lost incomes and jobs; whos families suffered from those losses, who
> came home to find an economy that had slumped and had no jobs to return to
> and in too many cases went months without employment.
> 
> I am afraid for the scarred souls we may possess if we take the wrong
> action and look back at it later with pain and regret.
> 
> I am afraid that some might dither so much that the results will be no
> action, or ineffective action, rather than enough or too much.  Like an
> excessive response an ineffective one is an invitation to further future
> disaster.
> 
> A Note:
> 
> I am a 30 year veteran, Pararescue, Survival Instructor, and Emergency
> Care Medical Services, active duty and active Reserve duty.  I have seen
> service in RVN and in Saudi Arabia in the Gulf War.  I retired this spring.
> I paid a Gulf War tax in lost income of greater than $90k US, and this
> was followed by 6 months of unemployment.
> 
> The only one of the questions above that I can answer with any certainty
> is the third one above, "Is it worthy of yours?"  I have contacted the
> MPU (Military Personnel Unit) at the nearest base to my home and have
> volunteered for recall.
> 
> Make your own decisions, for your own reasons - but please _THINK_ very
> carefully before talking or acting.
> 
> Yours
> rickf
> 
> 
> 
> This message was sent using KTB.net InTouch with Tomorrow.
> For more information visit http://www.ktb.net
> 
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-17 Thread Andrew Mathews

Joel Hammer wrote:

> Joel
> P.S. This thread seems to have hit rock bottom with this email! Shall we not
> say TID (Thread is dead)?
> 
> ___

Agreed. It was fun getting there though. 
-- 
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-17 Thread Ronnie Gauthier


I think that shortly we will be able to use rule .270 or .300 under the 
personal choice option.
Also, I do believe that rule .50 should be seriously considered as a good 
long range solution.

On Monday 17 September 2001 21:07, dep wrote:
> On Monday 17 September 2001 21:07, Chang wrote:
> | Then find out why Ladden did it? Talk to him before making a
> | military arrest.  :)
>
> as i understand it, our arrest of him will be under a provision of
> british military law, rule .303. we had a version of that, rule .308,
> but we wimped out and now are stuck with our own rule .223.

-- 
Ronnie
==
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it's all in your mind
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-17 Thread Joel Hammer

> correctness. The difference (besides opposable thumbs) is that some
> animals refuse to give up their freedom. Ever seen anyone ride a zebra?
> They can't be broken like a horse. Why do many animals have a greatly
> reduced lifespan when caged? Their spirit is broken. I can't say I've


I an not sure if caged animals live shorter lives. I know that dolphins in
the wild don't live as long as penned dolphins. Most animals, including the
human animal, live longer when given a steady diet, are fed even when they
are too sick to hunt/gather food that week, get medicine for infections, 
and are protected from predation and extremes of weather.
Not having to fight for mates or for territory also extends life. 
If some animals die quicker in cages, it is likely due to infection or stress
from overcrowding.
About riding zebras, I think that may have more to do with evolution.
Domestic animals have been bred to work with humans. Horses, dogs, cows,
etc. all have a long history of selective breeding (by humans) to make them
useful to us. 
As an example of something we take for granted in domesticated animals,
you cannot house break a chimpanzee.
Despite high intelligence, the chimp has not evolved, they tell me, control
over their sphincter function, so necessary for humans and their animal
companions. Imagine how long a human/dog/cat would last in a human group if they
just did their business whenever the need hit them. I don't see a man
getting many mates (human ones, at least) if he had that problem. 
Joel
P.S. This thread seems to have hit rock bottom with this email! Shall we not
say TID (Thread is dead)?

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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-17 Thread dep

On Monday 17 September 2001 22:01, Andrew Mathews wrote:

| Agreed. Nor is there absolute perfection, absolute power, or
| absolute correctness. The difference (besides opposable thumbs) is
| that some animals refuse to give up their freedom. Ever seen anyone
| ride a zebra? They can't be broken like a horse. Why do many
| animals have a greatly reduced lifespan when caged? Their spirit is
| broken. I can't say I've ever heard of anyone fighting to be
| oppressed. Only to be free. Now someone fighting to oppress others,
| well, that happens every day. Whether we, as individuals, roll over
| for them or stand up to them depends on one's conscience.

we might note in passing, too, that though we are supposedly a 
loathsome place hated by the rest of the world, the problem at our 
borders is not with people leaving.
-- 
dep

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;  
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand;
Beware the  
People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-17 Thread dep

On Monday 17 September 2001 09:09, Jerry McBride wrote:

| I'd rather submit to random searches than random acts of terrorism.

i'd rather be vigilant and get to my weapon before he can get to his. 

| Damn that bastard for what he's done to us. Damn him all the way to
| his grave.

entirely right. except for one thing -- it's those bastards. there 
are a lot of them, in a multitude of countries. just remember that we 
shall be making life for those who so much as smiled last tuesday 
nasty, brutish, and short.

| I've burned his image into my mind and as sure as you are my
| witness, I will clean his plate on sight...

i would be delighted to have the honor of personally kicking big blue 
out the back of a c-130 over any of a number of cities, from khartoum 
to baghdad to damascus. though this would do, too.
http://www.mn.afrl.af.mil/public/mnme/mnme.html
-- 
dep

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;  
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand;
Beware the  
People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-17 Thread dep

On Monday 17 September 2001 21:07, Chang wrote:
| Then find out why Ladden did it? Talk to him before making a
| military arrest.  :)

as i understand it, our arrest of him will be under a provision of 
british military law, rule .303. we had a version of that, rule .308, 
but we wimped out and now are stuck with our own rule .223.
-- 
dep

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;  
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand;
Beware the  
People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-17 Thread Andrew Mathews

Joel Hammer wrote:

> There is no such thing as absolute freedom. That would be called anarchy.
> Even animals have a social order and rules.
> Joel

Agreed. Nor is there absolute perfection, absolute power, or absolute
correctness. The difference (besides opposable thumbs) is that some
animals refuse to give up their freedom. Ever seen anyone ride a zebra?
They can't be broken like a horse. Why do many animals have a greatly
reduced lifespan when caged? Their spirit is broken. I can't say I've
ever heard of anyone fighting to be oppressed. Only to be free. Now
someone fighting to oppress others, well, that happens every day.
Whether we, as individuals, roll over for them or stand up to them
depends on one's conscience. 
-- 
Andrew Mathews

  7:35pm  up 2 days,  1:35,  5 users,  load average: 1.27, 1.18, 1.11

Would that my hand were as swift as my tongue.
-- Alfieri
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-17 Thread dep

On Monday 17 September 2001 19:56, Bill Campbell wrote:

| Speak for yourself.  I prefer ``Live Free or Die''.

i see you and raise you fifty: i prefer "let me live free. and if you 
don't, prepare to die."
-- 
dep

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;  
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand;
Beware the  
People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-17 Thread Jerry McBride

On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:14:15 -0400 Joel Hammer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > >People almost invariably choose personal security over "freedom".
> > >Any rational person would.
> > 
> > Speak for yourself.  I prefer ``Live Free or Die''.
> 
> I would rather...

I hate to admit this, but after some thought I agree with you. We don't live in
a world
of innocense any longer. We live in a time when the man, woman or child
standing 
next to you can take your life in the name of some god you've never had the
time to 
learn about...

I'd rather submit to random searches than random acts of terrorism.

Damn that bastard for what he's done to us. Damn him all the way to his grave.

I've burned his image into my mind and as sure as you are my witness, I will
clean his
plate on sight...




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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-17 Thread Chang

It's just propaganda kind of things. Soon, all measures would be loosen 
again. Stay tuned.

>>I am afraid of heights (I would hate to have to jump more
>>than 10 stories) and now airplanes, whether in one or watching them
>>fly overhead.
>>People almost invariably choose personal security over "freedom".
>>Any rational person would.
>>
>I would disagree with this ascertation.  I do not believe that a truely
>rational person would ever choose security over freedom, for without
>freedom there is no security.  The two are mutually exclusive.
>



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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-17 Thread Chang

Then find out why Ladden did it? Talk to him before making a military 
arrest.  :)

Joel Hammer wrote:

>I am afraid of heights (I would hate to have to jump more
>than 10 stories) and now airplanes, whether in one or watching them
>fly overhead.
>People almost invariably choose personal security over "freedom".
>Any rational person would.
>



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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-17 Thread stayler

On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:03:09 -0400, Joel Hammer wrote:

>I am afraid of heights (I would hate to have to jump more
>than 10 stories) and now airplanes, whether in one or watching them
>fly overhead.
>People almost invariably choose personal security over "freedom".
>Any rational person would.

I would disagree with this ascertation.  I do not believe that a truely
rational person would ever choose security over freedom, for without
freedom there is no security.  The two are mutually exclusive.

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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-17 Thread Joel Hammer

> >People almost invariably choose personal security over "freedom".
> >Any rational person would.
> 
> Speak for yourself.  I prefer ``Live Free or Die''.

I would rather show a photo id to get on a plane than be hijacked.
I would rather the state license drivers of cars so I don't get killed by an
incompetent driver.
I would rather cameras be used to screen faces in public places than have a
bomb go off during my third beer.
I would rather be stopped and frisked for weapons than be shot by a mugger
in New York City.
I would rather have packages inspected carefully by the postal service than
get a letter bomb.
I would rather the INS screen the border very carefully than to have known Arab
terrorists  and their associates book commercial flights and fly commercial
jets into high rise buildings.
There is no such thing as absolute freedom. That would be called anarchy.
Even animals have a social order and rules.
Joel





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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-17 Thread Bill Campbell

On Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 05:03:09PM -0400, Joel Hammer wrote:
>I am afraid of heights (I would hate to have to jump more
>than 10 stories) and now airplanes, whether in one or watching them
>fly overhead.
>People almost invariably choose personal security over "freedom".
>Any rational person would.

Speak for yourself.  I prefer ``Live Free or Die''.

Bill
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``It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!''
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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-17 Thread Joel Hammer

I am afraid of heights (I would hate to have to jump more
than 10 stories) and now airplanes, whether in one or watching them
fly overhead.
People almost invariably choose personal security over "freedom".
Any rational person would.
Joel

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Re: I am afraid...

2001-09-17 Thread Shawn Tayler

I could not agree more..

stayler

On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:04:24 -, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>I am afraid of those who would, in mindless persuit of some increase in
>security discard the freedoms that so many have fought and died to preserve.
>Benjamin Franklin observed that "those who would sacrifice essential
>freedoms for a little security will soon have neither."  If we sacrifice
>any of the Bill of Rights for the sake of some false image of safety,
>whether acting in some "War Against Drugs", or in a "War Against Terror",
>the enemy has already won.  Finding a way to achieve our goals that does
>not demolish our own foundations in freedom is sometimes hard - but 
>always worthy.

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