Re: I am afraid...
of, internet services. Yes, the limitations on government can make it more difficult for federal, state, and local authorities - but that was knowingly the intent of the Framers. With reason. The Framers didn't have to worry about Islamic madmen in jets flying into high rise buildings. The Framers didn't anticipate nuclear weapons. Joel ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:29:35 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rick Sivernell [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Joel You have not or will you or anyone else for that matter loose anyrights privileges. That is unless you screw up. I think you are talking about the war on Terrorism, I know you will correct me if I am wrong here g, But every body gets into this act, one way or another. All I can say to you others GET A GRIPE. Must respectfully disagree. The history of every crisis point in U.S. (or other nations) history contains a list of either blanket usurpations of power, or of temporary limitations which have become permanent impositions against a large number of the points addressed specifically in both the Constitution and the Amendments thereto. It has been proposed that the government be given a backdoor into *all* encryption codes. These are the guys that couldn't find Ames for 15 years. What would happen if terrorists bought all the world's encryption keys from a crooked government employee? Being unified against a very real threat doesn't mean that we should allow the government to commit stupid actions without protesting. -- --- | Alan K. Jackson| To see a World in a Grain of Sand | | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | And a Heaven in a Wild Flower, | | www.ajackson.org | Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand | | Houston, Texas | And Eternity in an hour. - Blake | --- ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 11:45:23 -0400 Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | In a way it's the noise ones with two x chromosomes that cause part of the problem. |A lot of | conservative Muslims are outraged by women in the military. In most Muslim countries |they | aren't even allowed to drive cars. But, in Saudi Arabia the American military has |sent along | quit a few female soldiers. Can't do anything less. To discriminate against them and |leave them | state side would be unconstitutional. Unfortunately, most Muslims in foreign |countries could | give a fig about the US Constitution and it's rights. And the GI women in Saudi Arabia really created a stir! They were let jog in shorts in the center of town, where they stayed. And they were seen to be driving cars. The morality police (not a part of the government) went crazy. They could do nothing to these women. But, after the army left, they were a bit more hostile towards western women who they felt were not being modest enough. And the women started demanding that they be able to drive. There were rumors and denials in the papers. Ultimately, nothing happened. But, I don't think the women know whow this works in their favor as well (low seriousness factor here - but not wrong either). They instead have drivers who deal with the really terrible Riyadh traffic and parking problems. Husbands have to take the wife grocery shopping. I have never seen so many families shopping together as in Saudi Arabia. The father has to take the kids here and there. Just think how your life would be if your wife did not drive and you had to do this? This really does not make life easier for the men. They really should wise up. Even the question about how women must dress is I think looked at too narrowly. Ever see how an Arab man dresses? He is totally covered from head to foot. They all wear the same white dress and picnic tablecloth head covering. No variety at all. They wear this at all times in and out of the house. The women can dress as they like at home. Only when they go out do they need to cover up. The women all in black and the men all in white. Not too much difference. I don't agree with all this, but at least recognize that the men also have many additional restrictions because of this. -- = Roger Oberholtzer E-mail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] OPQ Systems AB WWW: http://www.opq.se Erik Dahlbergsgatan 41-43 Phone: Int + 46 8 314223 115 32 Stockholm Mobile: Int + 46 733 621657 Sweden Fax: Int + 46 8 302602 ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
One of the first cries raised after the bombing of the Federal Building in Oklahoma City was for more gun limits to prevent acts of terrorism in the U.S. Totally unrelated, but perpetrated and accepted in the interests of security. The RICO Act - confiscation of property without trial or conviction, done in the name of security and the War on Drugs. The list goes on. There's already talk of more limitations on, and snooping of, internet services. Yes, the limitations on government can make it more difficult for federal, state, and local authorities - but that was knowingly the intent of the Framers. With reason. I must disagree. You forget the German hysteria during WWI. My grandfather had to change his name or lose his job. Landecker was too German. Landley was acceptable. The German press in this country, the second largest after English, was basically put out of business. It abated after the war. During WWII, the Japanese Americans on the West Coast were put into concentration camps after being forced to sell their property at bargain prices. But, they were let back out after the war. BTW, FDR insisted on this action. I believe J. Edgar Hoover said it wasn't necessary. So, war time controls are eased after the war. Joel ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
On Thursday 20 September 2001 17:29, you wrote: Rick Sivernell [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Joel You have not or will you or anyone else for that matter loose anyrights privileges. [snipt] Must respectfully disagree. The history of every crisis point in U.S. (or other nations) history contains a list of either blanket usurpations of power, or of temporary limitations which have become permanent impositions against a large number of the points addressed specifically in both the Constitution and the Amendments thereto. [snipt] The list goes on. There's already talk of more limitations on, and snooping of, internet services. Yes, the limitations on government can make it more difficult for federal, state, and local authorities - but that was knowingly the intent of the Framers. With reason. Rickf Well said. The price of liberty is eternal vigilance by the citizenry. Some have priorities which supersede such vigilance, I fear. Tom W. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
On Friday 21 September 2001 3:22 am, Roger Oberholtzer wrote: And, I must also ask, what freedoms are lost now? CNN (don't ya just love 'em) have asked the question, and the people they asked have said that if that is what it takes, then maybe it will be that way. But this is NOT the same thing as it actually having happened. I just heard on the radio that the FAA has now restricted flying within *3* miles of any outdoor sporting event or assembledge of people.. This would include a high school football game. They didn't mention any altitude with this. This to me would essentially ban all flight. There's no way to let pilots know where these 'restricted areas' are or to easily avoid them even if the pilot did. A real overreaction in my opinion. -- ++ + Bruce S. Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bellaire, MI 09/21/01 08:49 + ++ Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, you wrote: Snip The Framers didn't have to worry about Islamic madmen in jets flying into high rise buildings. The Framers didn't anticipate nuclear weapons. Joel Every time some zealot wishes to protect us from some threat , be it Nazis,Japanese, communists, KKK Kluckers crime ect, the first call that goes iut is to either give the government more power or to limit the rights of the people.. The excuse given is always , the framers of the Constitution couldn't have envisioned such a threat. Bull Pucky! The framers didn't have to envision all furuer threats to us. They realized that the rights of the people are timeless and that any threat was transitory. The permanet threat is the willingness to give up those rights for fear of the threat of the moment. Do that and the Muslim fanitacs have won. Benjamin franklin put it wishly, Those who would give up Liberty for security deserve neither Liberty or security. The plain truth is that the same government that is so blithly asking us to hand over our rights and the airline industry bear a large measure of responsibility in the WTC disaster. After it became fashionable to high jack airliners federal marshals were put on planes and airport security was increased. After flight 103 airport security was really beefed up. What happened? Simple the airlines didn't like paying their part of the cost of security and government dropped the sky marshal program to save a few bucks. Do you really think that a bunch of towel heads armed with knives or bomb threats could have overcome a well armed and trained sky marshal? Airport security followed the same sad fate as the sky marshal program. Instead of hiring intelligent movitivate personnel the program became nothing more than a political correct hiring program to giving well paying jobs to people based on their inability to get another job. Yet, with this sad history of government failure and greed there are those who in the name of security propose to hand over the rights, that generations of Americans have shed their blood to protect, to the same government that set us up for WTC. Personally, I'll throw my lot in with Ben Franklin. Lee ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
Amen - Richard Lee wrote: On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, you wrote: Snip The Framers didn't have to worry about Islamic madmen in jets flying into high rise buildings. The Framers didn't anticipate nuclear weapons. Joel Every time some zealot wishes to protect us from some threat , be it Nazis,Japanese, communists, KKK Kluckers crime ect, the first call that goes iut is to either give the government more power or to limit the rights of the people.. The excuse given is always , the framers of the Constitution couldn't have envisioned such a threat. Bull Pucky! The framers didn't have to envision all furuer threats to us. They realized that the rights of the people are timeless and that any threat was transitory. The permanet threat is the willingness to give up those rights for fear of the threat of the moment. Do that and the Muslim fanitacs have won. Benjamin franklin put it wishly, Those who would give up Liberty for security deserve neither Liberty or security. The plain truth is that the same government that is so blithly asking us to hand over our rights and the airline industry bear a large measure of responsibility in the WTC disaster. After it became fashionable to high jack airliners federal marshals were put on planes and airport security was increased. After flight 103 airport security was really beefed up. What happened? Simple the airlines didn't like paying their part of the cost of security and government dropped the sky marshal program to save a few bucks. Do you really think that a bunch of towel heads armed with knives or bomb threats could have overcome a well armed and trained sky marshal? Airport security followed the same sad fate as the sky marshal program. Instead of hiring intelligent movitivate personnel the program became nothing more than a political correct hiring program to giving well paying jobs to people based on their inability to get another job. Yet, with this sad history of government failure and greed there are those who in the name of security propose to hand over the rights, that generations of Americans have shed their blood to protect, to the same government that set us up for WTC. Personally, I'll throw my lot in with Ben Franklin. Lee ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users -- Richard Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] How many M$ software engineers does it take to screw in a lightbulb? None, the darkness is actually an undocumented security feature. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
On Friday 21 September 2001 06:52, you wrote: [snip] I just heard on the radio that the FAA has now restricted flying within *3* miles of any outdoor sporting event or assembledge of people.. This would include a high school football game. They didn't mention any altitude with this. This to me would essentially ban all flight. There's no way to let pilots know where these 'restricted areas' are or to easily avoid them even if the pilot did. A real overreaction in my opinion. Right you are. Someone obviously did not think this through. -- Glenn Williams - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Registered Linux User #135678 Powered by SuSE 7.2 Linux Professional ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
Personally I think you are just full of it. You have not given up any right what so ever. Some restrictions are required for all of iur own safety. We have it better here than any where else on this planet and that will always be true. Get your self a US flag start waving it, you will feel much better. cheers my friends -- Rick Sivernell Dallas, Texas 75287 972 306-2296 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Caldera Open Linux eWorkStation 3.1 Registered Linux User .~. / v \ /( _ )\ ^ ^ In Linux we trust! ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
MOVE THIS THREAD (was Re: I am afraid...)
On Friday 21 September 2001 14:22, Rick Sivernell babbled: Personally I think you are just full of it. You have not given up any right what so ever. Some restrictions are required for all of iur own safety. We have it better here than any where else on this planet and that will always be true. Get your self a US flag start waving it, you will feel much better. cheers my friends all right guys, either move this thread to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or end it please. thanks! -- Douglas J. Hunley ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - Linux User #174778 Admin: http://hunley.homeip.net/Admin: http://linux.nf/ Brainbench Linux Administration Certified ~~ Now offering Linux admin services for the SOHO/home user ~~ printk(??? No FDIV bug? Lucky you...\n); 2.2.16 /usr/src/linux/include/asm-i386/bugs.h ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
On Friday 21 September 2001 14:22 pm, Rick Sivernell wrote: Personally I think you are just full of it. You have not given up any right what so ever. Some restrictions are required for all of iur own safety. We have it better here than any where else on this planet and that will always be true. Get your self a US flag start waving it, you will feel much better. Ask a VFR pilot whether he has given up any rights... He can't fly at the present time. I'm sure there are more examples. -- ++ + Bruce S. Marshall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bellaire, MI 09/21/01 17:31 + ++ Anagram: Semolina = Is No Meal ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
On Wednesday 19 September 2001 09:20 pm, you wrote: Isn't it funny, but when we start talking about the need to defend rights and freedom, the first thing we do is to suspend the civil rights of all honest, healthy, straight men between 18-?40 (How high will they go? And, they don't draft felons, do they? Or the other, very noisy half of the adult population, you know, the ones with TWO X chromosomes.) Makes you think. Joel ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users What rights have you been denied. Only young men make good cannon fodder anyway. cheers -- Rick Sivernell Dallas, Texas 75287 972 306-2296 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Caldera Open Linux eWorkStation 3.1 Registered Linux User .~. / v \ /( _ )\ ^ ^ In Linux we trust! ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
Preamble ... provide for the common defense ... Article 1, Section 8 - Powers of Congress - To declare war, to raise and support armies, provide for calling forth the militia, and organize, arm and discipline the militia. Amendments - Article 8 - Abolition of slavery and involuntary servitude, except as punishment upon conviction for a crime. Being asked to defend your country may well be a total pain in the ass, it might even cost you your life, but it is neither slavery nor involuntary servitude. - Richard Joel Hammer wrote: What rights have you been denied. Only young men make good cannon fodder Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. There is also something about involuntary servitude in the constitution. Joel ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users -- Richard Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] How many M$ software engineers does it take to screw in a lightbulb? None, the darkness is actually an undocumented security feature. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
Rick Sivernell [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Joel You have not or will you or anyone else for that matter loose anyrights privileges. That is unless you screw up. I think you are talking about the war on Terrorism, I know you will correct me if I am wrong here g, But every body gets into this act, one way or another. All I can say to you others GET A GRIPE. Must respectfully disagree. The history of every crisis point in U.S. (or other nations) history contains a list of either blanket usurpations of power, or of temporary limitations which have become permanent impositions against a large number of the points addressed specifically in both the Constitution and the Amendments thereto. In many cases it has been acheived by redefining the meaning of the words: i.e.: most of the controversy about so called Gun Control pivots on the meanings of the words militia (understood to be constituted of all free able-bodied men) and of the word infringed. There are communities which have perpetrated very severe restrictions on ownership of weapons simply by the way they defined the word infringed. Creative moral terpitude on the part of our public servants. One of the first cries raised after the bombing of the Federal Building in Oklahoma City was for more gun limits to prevent acts of terrorism in the U.S. Totally unrelated, but perpetrated and accepted in the interests of security. The RICO Act - confiscation of property without trial or conviction, done in the name of security and the War on Drugs. The list goes on. There's already talk of more limitations on, and snooping of, internet services. Yes, the limitations on government can make it more difficult for federal, state, and local authorities - but that was knowingly the intent of the Framers. With reason. Rickf -- This message was sent using KTB.net InTouch with Tomorrow. For more information visit http://www.ktb.net ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
Isn't it funny, but when we start talking about the need to defend rights and freedom, the first thing we do is to suspend the civil rights of all honest, healthy, straight men between 18-?40 (How high will they go? And, they don't draft felons, do they? Or the other, very noisy half of the adult population, you know, the ones with TWO X chromosomes.) Makes you think. Joel ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
On Tuesday 18 September 2001 02:03, Chang wrote: | you guys interseted me,. where is the full documentation for these? | iinternal useonly? or you guys were playing with numbers? :) we're talking the calibre of service longarms. .303 is the standard british cartridge of most of the 20th century. .308 is the ballsy nato cartridge, while .223 is the pipsqueak m-16 round. (throughout history, he who has the biggest bore wins the war.) .50 is a dandy big-bore cartridge; .45, though not mentioned, is what will greet and instantly stop anybody coming uninvited through the front door here if i can't get to the shotgun. -- dep There is sobbing of the strong, And a pall upon the land; But the People in their weeping Bare the iron hand; Beware the People weeping When they bare the iron hand. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
uh, http://www.remington.com On Tuesday 18 September 2001 01:03, Chang wrote: you guys interseted me,. where is the full documentation for these? iinternal useonly? or you guys were playing with numbers? :) Ronnie Gauthier wrote: I think that shortly we will be able to use rule .270 or .300 under the personal choice option. Also, I do believe that rule .50 should be seriously considered as a good long range solution. On Monday 17 September 2001 21:07, dep wrote: On Monday 17 September 2001 21:07, Chang wrote: | Then find out why Ladden did it? Talk to him before making a | military arrest. :) as i understand it, our arrest of him will be under a provision of british military law, rule .303. we had a version of that, rule .308, but we wimped out and now are stuck with our own rule .223. _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users -- Ronnie == Life can be a dream; or it can be a nightmare it's all in your mind ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
My personal choice is a 12ga with 00 On Tuesday 18 September 2001 01:38, dep wrote: On Tuesday 18 September 2001 02:03, Chang wrote: | you guys interseted me,. where is the full documentation for these? | iinternal useonly? or you guys were playing with numbers? :) we're talking the calibre of service longarms. .303 is the standard british cartridge of most of the 20th century. .308 is the ballsy nato cartridge, while .223 is the pipsqueak m-16 round. (throughout history, he who has the biggest bore wins the war.) .50 is a dandy big-bore cartridge; .45, though not mentioned, is what will greet and instantly stop anybody coming uninvited through the front door here if i can't get to the shotgun. -- Ronnie == Life can be a dream; or it can be a nightmare it's all in your mind ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
Dennis I have viewed the web site you had , http://www.mn.afrl.af.mil/public/mnme/mnme.html , I have just one question here. Does SBLneed to take it oral or as a supository. Either way I think it will releive any heart burn. g cheers -- Rick Sivernell Dallas, Texas 75287 972 306-2296 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Caldera Open Linux eWorkStation 3.1 Registered Linux User .~. / v \ /( _ )\ ^ ^ In Linux we trust! ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
Actually the best is the M-79 with 40 mm shotgun shells. I had a bunch in Nam while I was flying in the Ashaw valley. Next was the M-16 with our special made clips, 4 each taped together at 90 degree angles, 80 quick rounds pleaseg cheers -- Rick Sivernell Dallas, Texas 75287 972 306-2296 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Caldera Open Linux eWorkStation 3.1 Registered Linux User .~. / v \ /( _ )\ ^ ^ In Linux we trust! ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
On Monday 17 September 2001 20:07, you wrote: On Monday 17 September 2001 21:07, Chang wrote: | Then find out why Ladden did it? Talk to him before making a | military arrest. :) as i understand it, our arrest of him will be under a provision of british military law, rule .303. we had a version of that, rule .308, but we wimped out and now are stuck with our own rule .223. How about this rule: U.S. Pistol, cal .45, M1911A1 Glenn -- Glenn Williams - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Registered Linux User #135678 Powered by SuSE 7.2 Linux Professional ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
On Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 08:14:15PM -0400, Joel Hammer wrote: People almost invariably choose personal security over freedom. Any rational person would. Speak for yourself. I prefer ``Live Free or Die''. The Brazilians understand: http://www.sierratimes.com/archive/files/sep/17/arbz091701.htm Bill -- INTERNET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX:(206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ The day-to-day travails of the IBM programmer are so amusing to most of us who are fortunate enough never to have been one -- like watching Charlie Chaplin trying to cook a shoe. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
RE: I am afraid...
Looks like a practical joke to me. In case of hijacking - please aim for the chest Regards, Wil McGilvery Manager, Digital Media Lynch Technologies Inc. 416-744-7191 1-888-622-3729 416-744-0406 FAX www.lynchdigital.com -Original Message- From: Rick Forrister [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 3:09 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: I am afraid... On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:23:58 -0700 Bill Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 08:14:15PM -0400, Joel Hammer wrote: People almost invariably choose personal security over freedom. Any rational person would. Speak for yourself. I prefer ``Live Free or Die''. The Brazilians understand: http://www.sierratimes.com/archive/files/sep/17/arbz091701.htm Yep. They got the point. Someone should probably suggest that a request be made for the use of Glazer rounds inflight. rickf -- The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed. -- Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-188 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
Ronnie Gauthier wrote: Snip as i understand it, our arrest of him will be under a provision of british military law, rule .303. we had a version of that, rule .308, but we wimped out and now are stuck with our own rule .223. Not so wimpy. The 223 has more knock down than the .303. The bullet moves at 3,300 ft/sec and spins at anywhere between 18,000 to 24,000 rpm (depending on rifling twist). When it hits something soft it tends to keyhole (turns end for end) at the same time it is still spinning at 24,000 rpm. It's like getting hit with a ball of whirling razor blades. Its only draw back is that it is a lousy round in brush, that's where the heavier slower .303 has an advantage. There aren't a lot of bushes in Afghanistan. _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users -- Ronnie == Life can be a dream; or it can be a nightmare it's all in your mind ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
On Tuesday 18 September 2001 09:18, Glenn Williams wrote: | How about this rule: U.S. Pistol, cal .45, M1911A1 which we also wimped out on, adopting the ridiculous 9mm instead. we need to go back to the colt, and we need to fully embrace .308, and anybody who ain't man enough for it ought to be doing something else. -- dep There is sobbing of the strong, And a pall upon the land; But the People in their weeping Bare the iron hand; Beware the People weeping When they bare the iron hand. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
On Tuesday 18 September 2001 19:12, Lee wrote: | Not so wimpy. The 223 has more knock down than the .303. The bullet | moves at 3,300 ft/sec and spins at anywhere between 18,000 to | 24,000 rpm (depending on rifling twist). When it hits something | soft it tends to keyhole (turns end for end) at the same time it is | still spinning at 24,000 rpm. It's like getting hit with a ball of | whirling razor blades. Its only draw back is that it is a lousy | round in brush, that's where the heavier slower .303 has an | advantage. There aren't a lot of bushes in Afghanistan. i'll go with the big, heavy, slower bullet everytime. we don't have true hydrostatic shock in the .223 yet -- jeff cooper wrote wonderfully 25 years ago about a .17 spitzer out of a gas-operated pistol at 4,500 fps. *that* would produce hydrostatic shock. and i've yet to see *any* reputable study that gives greater stopping power to a smaller slug. the advantage of the big slug is that it expends its energy in the target, instead of whatever is behind the target. -- dep There is sobbing of the strong, And a pall upon the land; But the People in their weeping Bare the iron hand; Beware the People weeping When they bare the iron hand. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
[OT] Re: I am afraid...
I thought you were about police procedures... be civilized a little bit... Ronnie Gauthier wrote: uh, http://www.remington.com On Tuesday 18 September 2001 01:03, Chang wrote: you guys interseted me,. where is the full documentation for these? iinternal useonly? or you guys were playing with numbers? :) Ronnie Gauthier wrote: I think that shortly we will be able to use rule .270 or .300 under the personal choice option. Also, I do believe that rule .50 should be seriously considered as a good long range solution. On Monday 17 September 2001 21:07, dep wrote: On Monday 17 September 2001 21:07, Chang wrote: | Then find out why Ladden did it? Talk to him before making a | military arrest. :) as i understand it, our arrest of him will be under a provision of british military law, rule .303. we had a version of that, rule .308, but we wimped out and now are stuck with our own rule .223. _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
I could not agree more.. stayler On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:04:24 -, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am afraid of those who would, in mindless persuit of some increase in security discard the freedoms that so many have fought and died to preserve. Benjamin Franklin observed that those who would sacrifice essential freedoms for a little security will soon have neither. If we sacrifice any of the Bill of Rights for the sake of some false image of safety, whether acting in some War Against Drugs, or in a War Against Terror, the enemy has already won. Finding a way to achieve our goals that does not demolish our own foundations in freedom is sometimes hard - but always worthy. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
I am afraid of heights (I would hate to have to jump more than 10 stories) and now airplanes, whether in one or watching them fly overhead. People almost invariably choose personal security over freedom. Any rational person would. Joel ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
On Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 05:03:09PM -0400, Joel Hammer wrote: I am afraid of heights (I would hate to have to jump more than 10 stories) and now airplanes, whether in one or watching them fly overhead. People almost invariably choose personal security over freedom. Any rational person would. Speak for yourself. I prefer ``Live Free or Die''. Bill -- INTERNET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX:(206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ ``It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!'' -- Emiliano Zapata. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
People almost invariably choose personal security over freedom. Any rational person would. Speak for yourself. I prefer ``Live Free or Die''. I would rather show a photo id to get on a plane than be hijacked. I would rather the state license drivers of cars so I don't get killed by an incompetent driver. I would rather cameras be used to screen faces in public places than have a bomb go off during my third beer. I would rather be stopped and frisked for weapons than be shot by a mugger in New York City. I would rather have packages inspected carefully by the postal service than get a letter bomb. I would rather the INS screen the border very carefully than to have known Arab terrorists and their associates book commercial flights and fly commercial jets into high rise buildings. There is no such thing as absolute freedom. That would be called anarchy. Even animals have a social order and rules. Joel ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:03:09 -0400, Joel Hammer wrote: I am afraid of heights (I would hate to have to jump more than 10 stories) and now airplanes, whether in one or watching them fly overhead. People almost invariably choose personal security over freedom. Any rational person would. I would disagree with this ascertation. I do not believe that a truely rational person would ever choose security over freedom, for without freedom there is no security. The two are mutually exclusive. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
Then find out why Ladden did it? Talk to him before making a military arrest. :) Joel Hammer wrote: I am afraid of heights (I would hate to have to jump more than 10 stories) and now airplanes, whether in one or watching them fly overhead. People almost invariably choose personal security over freedom. Any rational person would. _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
It's just propaganda kind of things. Soon, all measures would be loosen again. Stay tuned. I am afraid of heights (I would hate to have to jump more than 10 stories) and now airplanes, whether in one or watching them fly overhead. People almost invariably choose personal security over freedom. Any rational person would. I would disagree with this ascertation. I do not believe that a truely rational person would ever choose security over freedom, for without freedom there is no security. The two are mutually exclusive. _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:14:15 -0400 Joel Hammer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: People almost invariably choose personal security over freedom. Any rational person would. Speak for yourself. I prefer ``Live Free or Die''. I would rather... I hate to admit this, but after some thought I agree with you. We don't live in a world of innocense any longer. We live in a time when the man, woman or child standing next to you can take your life in the name of some god you've never had the time to learn about... I'd rather submit to random searches than random acts of terrorism. Damn that bastard for what he's done to us. Damn him all the way to his grave. I've burned his image into my mind and as sure as you are my witness, I will clean his plate on sight... -- ** Registered Linux User Number 185956 http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=ensafe=offgroup=linux 8:59pm up 14 days, 8:06, 7 users, load average: 0.06, 0.15, 0.16 ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
On Monday 17 September 2001 19:56, Bill Campbell wrote: | Speak for yourself. I prefer ``Live Free or Die''. i see you and raise you fifty: i prefer let me live free. and if you don't, prepare to die. -- dep There is sobbing of the strong, And a pall upon the land; But the People in their weeping Bare the iron hand; Beware the People weeping When they bare the iron hand. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
Joel Hammer wrote: snip There is no such thing as absolute freedom. That would be called anarchy. Even animals have a social order and rules. Joel Agreed. Nor is there absolute perfection, absolute power, or absolute correctness. The difference (besides opposable thumbs) is that some animals refuse to give up their freedom. Ever seen anyone ride a zebra? They can't be broken like a horse. Why do many animals have a greatly reduced lifespan when caged? Their spirit is broken. I can't say I've ever heard of anyone fighting to be oppressed. Only to be free. Now someone fighting to oppress others, well, that happens every day. Whether we, as individuals, roll over for them or stand up to them depends on one's conscience. -- Andrew Mathews 7:35pm up 2 days, 1:35, 5 users, load average: 1.27, 1.18, 1.11 Would that my hand were as swift as my tongue. -- Alfieri ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
On Monday 17 September 2001 21:07, Chang wrote: | Then find out why Ladden did it? Talk to him before making a | military arrest. :) as i understand it, our arrest of him will be under a provision of british military law, rule .303. we had a version of that, rule .308, but we wimped out and now are stuck with our own rule .223. -- dep There is sobbing of the strong, And a pall upon the land; But the People in their weeping Bare the iron hand; Beware the People weeping When they bare the iron hand. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
On Monday 17 September 2001 09:09, Jerry McBride wrote: | I'd rather submit to random searches than random acts of terrorism. i'd rather be vigilant and get to my weapon before he can get to his. | Damn that bastard for what he's done to us. Damn him all the way to | his grave. entirely right. except for one thing -- it's those bastards. there are a lot of them, in a multitude of countries. just remember that we shall be making life for those who so much as smiled last tuesday nasty, brutish, and short. | I've burned his image into my mind and as sure as you are my | witness, I will clean his plate on sight... i would be delighted to have the honor of personally kicking big blue out the back of a c-130 over any of a number of cities, from khartoum to baghdad to damascus. though this would do, too. http://www.mn.afrl.af.mil/public/mnme/mnme.html -- dep There is sobbing of the strong, And a pall upon the land; But the People in their weeping Bare the iron hand; Beware the People weeping When they bare the iron hand. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
correctness. The difference (besides opposable thumbs) is that some animals refuse to give up their freedom. Ever seen anyone ride a zebra? They can't be broken like a horse. Why do many animals have a greatly reduced lifespan when caged? Their spirit is broken. I can't say I've I an not sure if caged animals live shorter lives. I know that dolphins in the wild don't live as long as penned dolphins. Most animals, including the human animal, live longer when given a steady diet, are fed even when they are too sick to hunt/gather food that week, get medicine for infections, and are protected from predation and extremes of weather. Not having to fight for mates or for territory also extends life. If some animals die quicker in cages, it is likely due to infection or stress from overcrowding. About riding zebras, I think that may have more to do with evolution. Domestic animals have been bred to work with humans. Horses, dogs, cows, etc. all have a long history of selective breeding (by humans) to make them useful to us. As an example of something we take for granted in domesticated animals, you cannot house break a chimpanzee. Despite high intelligence, the chimp has not evolved, they tell me, control over their sphincter function, so necessary for humans and their animal companions. Imagine how long a human/dog/cat would last in a human group if they just did their business whenever the need hit them. I don't see a man getting many mates (human ones, at least) if he had that problem. Joel P.S. This thread seems to have hit rock bottom with this email! Shall we not say TID (Thread is dead)? ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
I think that shortly we will be able to use rule .270 or .300 under the personal choice option. Also, I do believe that rule .50 should be seriously considered as a good long range solution. On Monday 17 September 2001 21:07, dep wrote: On Monday 17 September 2001 21:07, Chang wrote: | Then find out why Ladden did it? Talk to him before making a | military arrest. :) as i understand it, our arrest of him will be under a provision of british military law, rule .303. we had a version of that, rule .308, but we wimped out and now are stuck with our own rule .223. -- Ronnie == Life can be a dream; or it can be a nightmare it's all in your mind ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
Ben was a wise man who probably would have been running Linux if computers were around in his time. His words still hold true. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am afraid... I am afraid of those who would, in mindless persuit of some increase in security discard the freedoms that so many have fought and died to preserve. Benjamin Franklin observed that those who would sacrifice essential freedoms for a little security will soon have neither. If we sacrifice any of the Bill of Rights for the sake of some false image of safety, whether acting in some War Against Drugs, or in a War Against Terror, the enemy has already won. Finding a way to achieve our goals that does not demolish our own foundations in freedom is sometimes hard - but always worthy. I am afraid of those who would blindly strike at a wide area in persuit of vengence and security. The feelings of satisfaction are only temporary, and the consequences of ill considered action last a long time. I am afraid of those who are overeager to send in the troups to destroy any possible target that even _might_ be involved in supporting those who have committed terrorism. The troups are not mindless grunts waiting to die as a tool of policy. They are _your_ brothers/sisters/mothers/fathers/ cousins. Both the enlisted and officer corps are often highly educated and trained. They are sworn to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution. Before you blindly scream SEND IN THE TROUPS, ask yourself if you are so sure of the cause in which you send them that YOU YOURSELF ARE WILLING TO VOLUNTEER TO BE ONE OF THE TROUPS. Is this cause worthy of the expenditure of their lives? Is it worthy of yours? I am afraid of those who are blindly attacking American muslims and anyone who appears to be of middle-eastern descent. In the barbaric attack on the WTC and Pentagon, one of the goals is to deepen the rift between communities in the U.S., both creating more civil unrest, and widening the base of concealment and operations available here. You serve our enemies well when you mouth the words or take the actions of bigotry, racism, and hatred. I am afraid for the families of those in the Reserves and National Guard. We heard in the Gulf War that there was no War Tax. There _WAS_ a war tax. It was paid by the Reserves and National Guard, who reported for duty and lost incomes and jobs; whos families suffered from those losses, who came home to find an economy that had slumped and had no jobs to return to and in too many cases went months without employment. I am afraid for the scarred souls we may possess if we take the wrong action and look back at it later with pain and regret. I am afraid that some might dither so much that the results will be no action, or ineffective action, rather than enough or too much. Like an excessive response an ineffective one is an invitation to further future disaster. A Note: I am a 30 year veteran, Pararescue, Survival Instructor, and Emergency Care Medical Services, active duty and active Reserve duty. I have seen service in RVN and in Saudi Arabia in the Gulf War. I retired this spring. I paid a Gulf War tax in lost income of greater than $90k US, and this was followed by 6 months of unemployment. The only one of the questions above that I can answer with any certainty is the third one above, Is it worthy of yours? I have contacted the MPU (Military Personnel Unit) at the nearest base to my home and have volunteered for recall. Make your own decisions, for your own reasons - but please _THINK_ very carefully before talking or acting. Yours rickf This message was sent using KTB.net InTouch with Tomorrow. For more information visit http://www.ktb.net ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
On Monday 17 September 2001 22:57, Ronnie Gauthier wrote: | I think that shortly we will be able to use rule .270 or .300 under | the personal choice option. | Also, I do believe that rule .50 should be seriously considered as | a good long range solution. here's a not-bad choice: http://www.hkpro.com/oicw.htm -- dep There is sobbing of the strong, And a pall upon the land; But the People in their weeping Bare the iron hand; Beware the People weeping When they bare the iron hand. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
On Mon, 2001-09-17 at 18:14, Joel Hammer wrote: People almost invariably choose personal security over freedom. Any rational person would. Speak for yourself. I prefer ``Live Free or Die''. I would rather show a photo id to get on a plane than be hijacked. Of course with every political jurisdiction having its own different looking version of photo ID, fake photo ID would have a reasonable chance of working. Will we solve that by having the UN issue universal photo ID? I would rather the state license drivers of cars so I don't get killed by an incompetent driver. If only the acquisition of a drivers license did prevent incompetent drivers. I would rather cameras be used to screen faces in public places than have a bomb go off during my third beer. If Big Brother is watching you that closely what makes you think you will be allowed to have 3 beers before the state takes away your drivers license to prevent you from being incompetent behind the wheel of a car? I would rather be stopped and frisked for weapons than be shot by a mugger in New York City. I would far rather that the cops spent their time and effort to catch that mugger otherwise a personal weapon in my possession would do me more good when dealing with a mugger. I would rather have packages inspected carefully by the postal service than get a letter bomb. The Postal Service protecting you?? Inspecting to the postal types means opening and snooping. Allegedly looking for explosives one day, as if they knew what to look for, then asking you if you paid all the sales taxes due on those items in the parcel the next day. I would rather the INS screen the border very carefully than to have known Arab terrorists and their associates book commercial flights and fly commercial jets into high rise buildings. Actually I have to sort of agree with you here. The Border Guards of any country really should be guarding their borders. Consistency and efficiency in their actions is probably too much to ask for. There is no such thing as absolute freedom. That would be called anarchy. Even animals have a social order and rules. Joel Animal social order is called animal rule or law of the jungle and you really ought to see the blood and mess when my German Shepard tries to change the social order over the Rottweiller. Given a choice between being a Freeman, with all the rights AND rsponsibilites that entails, or the option of being a Serf with no responsiblity to look after myself, I will choose to be a Freeman. Yes, that does entail the possibility of putting my steel up against another mans steel in defence of country or way of life. Unfortunately too many others today would be willing to be serfs, as long as they had their beer and hockey. Ralph ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
On Tuesday 18 September 2001 00:12, Ralph Sanford wrote: a tremendous amout, all of it *exactly* right, the definition of those willing to stand up on their hind legs and roar as opposed to those who walk on all fours and whimper. -- dep There is sobbing of the strong, And a pall upon the land; But the People in their weeping Bare the iron hand; Beware the People weeping When they bare the iron hand. ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: I am afraid...
you guys interseted me,. where is the full documentation for these? iinternal useonly? or you guys were playing with numbers? :) Ronnie Gauthier wrote: I think that shortly we will be able to use rule .270 or .300 under the personal choice option. Also, I do believe that rule .50 should be seriously considered as a good long range solution. On Monday 17 September 2001 21:07, dep wrote: On Monday 17 September 2001 21:07, Chang wrote: | Then find out why Ladden did it? Talk to him before making a | military arrest. :) as i understand it, our arrest of him will be under a provision of british military law, rule .303. we had a version of that, rule .308, but we wimped out and now are stuck with our own rule .223. _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://linux.nf -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives, Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, Etc -http://linux.nf/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
