Re: [WSG] Safari - Drop down menu over a flash movie
From: al morris Not sure what you mean Tom, define 'freak out' :) If the issue is the menu appearing behind flash, you can add param mode='transparent' on the flash movie and it will sit behind the menu. The wmode parameter does not work correctly in Safari. -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets Authors: 42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Safari - Drop down menu over a flash movie
From: Micky Hulse [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hehe, mine too. At least, that is my sentiment starting last Monday when my boss wanted me to update our sites suckerfish-style menu so it worked in IE7... Not that that is hard, but it also had to function well in IE5/Mac/PC... Ouch... I am still working on it. LOL! I would much rather take the time to build a nav system that did not involve JS trickery, hidden menu items, and complex hackish CSS. With Suckerfish-style menus, it's even worse if you try to use more than 1 sub-menu level. That adds severe mouse-motoring challenges, even to the able-bodied. If you can't talk your boss out of it, and you can live with a single sub-menu, have a look at the CSS Express Menu tutorial: http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/navigation/auto_hide/index.htm Good luck :-) -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets Authors: 42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] display:none; property and screenreaders
From: David Dorward [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... but if you are replacing text with an image, then you're replacing content with the image, so presumably the image conveys the same content? So it isn't purely presentational. Precisely, Your arguments fully address the logical layer :-) Image replacement, using CSS, was invented to allow people to make navigation menus or headings that fit a certain graphical look. FIR might better be labeled as Faux-Images. The only possible argument in favor of using FIR over embedding a real image with a meanigful ALT attribute would be one involving how search engines weigh pure text versus the ALT attribute. There is no other strong argument in its favor, unless one is simply talking about purely decorative images - and I don't believe this topic was ever really about that. As for accessibility, no image replacement technique, where the background image conveys meaning, should be considered unless it works not just for assistive readers, but for people who disable images. There are a few that work well that way, but then you must way the complexity of the markup and CSS versus a simple image tag, which is handled perfectly by even my Lynx browser. -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] display:none; property and screenreaders
From: Steve Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] 4. I am not in favour of using graphics for navigation because it is not possible to resize the text or change the colours. That is one of the logical reasons for using image replacement, so long as the text is available to visual browsers with images disabled. Of course, it's the perfect argument for using real text in the first place ;-) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] display:none; property and screenreaders
From: Steve Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] 4. I am not in favour of using graphics for navigation because it is not possible to resize the text or change the colours. Should have been: That is one of the logical reasons for NOT using image replacement, *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Any tips on creating an accessible vertical flyout navigation.
This blog post by John Faulds might be useful: http://www.tyssendesign.com.au/articles/css/dropdown-low-down -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Horizontal Menu Issue
Tim White wrote: That is one of the tricky spots of horizontal nav. I've always just done a trial and error, using either a) one size large enough for all or b) trial-and-error individual sizing. Anyone else have better ways of supplying widths to horizontal nav items? Sure. http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/navigation/auto_hide/workpage.htm There is a tutorial for the menu. -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Horizontal Menu Issue
Anyone else have better ways of supplying widths to horizontal nav items? Sure. http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/navigation/auto_hide/workpage.htm There is a tutorial for the menu. Of course, you can ignore the sub-menus. The root menu is obviously what you are interested in. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Dropdown menu issue - part II
I don't have IE7 installed at the moment and, having read various
posts about issues with installing as a standalone, am reluctant to
do so just yet, although I'll need to bite the bullet at some point.
If someone could take a look at:
http://dev.logical.co.uk/museadvisory/
a) confirm that there is an issue with menus/sub-menus in IE7
b) suggest a fix that won't then break IE6, Opera etc
Place this CC just before your closing /head tag:
!--[if IE 7]
style
#dropnav a {zoom:100%;}
#dropnav li{float:left;clear:both;width:100%;}
/style
![endif]--
The menu works in Opera 9.
--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets
Authors: 42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design
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Re: [WSG] Dropdown menu issue - part II
From: Mihael Zadravec [EMAIL PROTECTED]
II
It looks the same in FF and IE7
take a look at screenshot...
Nick has apparently deployed the fix I suggested. I see this in his
source:
!--[if IE 7]
style
#dropnav a {zoom:100%;}
#dropnav li{float:left;clear:both;width:100%;}
/style
![endif]--
It now works nicely in IE7.
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Re: [WSG] how to retain equal height without losing layout integrity when user resizes font size
Example: http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/moa_11.html ...which includes IE fixes. Study Roger's article (linked in) and demos for the rest. IE7 wants to scroll the negative margins. There are some scripted solutions that might be easier to manage, so long as the equal columns can be seen as an enhancement. -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] how to retain equal height without losing layout integrity when user resizes font size
http://project.lotusseedsdesign.com/eqforie7.png Al, I aware you have an equal height script and just went back to take look, can it be used for many columns with rows? I ask because of the reading from 'the script argument' paragraph. The in-house programmers maybe able to come out something similar but if they don't know how to hook up id and class for dl element, it may be better not to count on them. Our script was not written for multiple rows. An image-based faux column technique would work. -- Al *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a new IE bug? maybe not
Tee G. Peng wrote: I experienced something very frustrating and had wasted many hours to find the culprit. Not sure if it's a new discovery or something that is known by many people, thought I share it with you and hopefully it can save you some grieve to try to figure what goes wrong in the future. Was working on a page that uses (PVII) dropdown menu and it doesn't up in IE 6 7. I thought it was my code at question, turned out it was because I didn't upload the SWF file, thus causing dropdown menu not showing up. You can see the page here http://new.marinersq.com/html/aerobics.html Soon as the flash banner uploaded, it shows up fine. http://new.marinersq.com/html/aerobics-3.html That's a known issue with Flash and IE. When IE cannot find an image on a server, it simply displays a broken image icon and moves on loading the page. With Flash, it just keeps looking and looking for that SWF and if it cannot find it, the page's onload event will simply not fire. When using Flash, it's a good idea to move your script intializers inline. Delete the onload init for PMM on the body tag and write it inline, just after the end of your menu wrapper DIV: /ul /div script type=text/javascript P7_initPM(1,8,1,-20,10); /script !--end #menu_wrapper -- -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible, lightweight JavaScript menu - which ones do people like?
From: Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] My sincere apologies to all for this post. FYI: it took me a day to hit the send button. Whenever you need to think about hitting the send button, you probably shouldn't :-) Beyond that, I have only the vaguest idea what you are trying to say and little desire for a clarification on a beatiful Saturday afternoon. The tractor beckons me. Thanks in advance for not responding and taking this any more off-topic than it already is. -- Al *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] *Pure* CSS drop down menu
Hi Christian, So, I am quite clear on what you DON'T like - but what about these great combination menus with CSS and javascript? Can you point us to some of your work? I am not really interested in key tab navigation right now - I'd just like to see: 1. How good these 'super-valid' menus can look. 2. What methods are used to achieve them and how they cope with the 'turning off' idea I have mentioned above. I look forward to hearing your thoughts. I'm sure Christian will respond, but I would like to offer some input, as well. Based on our last go'round here, I'm pretty surre I understand your perspective, which I fully respect. What comes next is not preaching and is not meant to be condescending, so please don't take it that way. Making a navigation bar that works with JavaScript disabled is not bad. Christian's points about presentation vs. behavior are valid points, but perhaps a bit esoteric in some contexts. My position is simple, a menu should be accessible and usable. Can you always be perfectly accessible or perfectly usable? No. But you can address big issues, like: Javascript support and timers to prevent premature or unwanted closing or changing of sub-menus. Without script, these kinds of menus simply will not work in 80+% of the browsers in use worldwide. That can be addressed by activating the links on the root menu items to load the relevant page, while using CSS to force open the associated sub-menu or, if that's not convenient, to include the sub-menu links within the flow of the page's content. An example of that can be seen here: http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/accessibility/pop_integrated/pmmsite/index.htm The above page also addresses keyboard navigation, by hiding the sub-menus. This prevents keyboard surfers from having to tab through links that are hidden offscreen. Imagine how frustrating that can be. Of course, one can script in full keyboard support that emulates what Windows or OSX does with these kinds of menus - but that severely bloats code and often requires a mini user-guide for site visitors :-) So, in the example site, the menu is purely additive and must be combined with an intelligently structured site that contains relevant link in the page flow to help pull people through the site. With certain menu orientations, you can use images to mitigate problems caused by diagonal mouse or pointer movements - even in a so-called pure CSS menu... as in this page: http://www.projectseven.com/csslab/testing/listmenus/exp_vproto/ Of course, you can use a pure CSS menu in an orientation that works within the inherent limitations of such menus by configuring a vertical drop-down limited to a single sub-menu level: http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/navigation/auto_hide/workpage.htm I hope this helps someone. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] *Pure* CSS drop down menu
One of the issues I've found with CSS drop down menus is that the functions cannot be time sensitive. James Edwards and Cameron Adams have writen some Javascript functions in the Sitepoint Javascript Anthology The issue of timers is fairly elementary JavaScript and has been at work in many menu systems for quite a few years - :-) -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] *Pure* CSS drop down menu
From: Christian Heilmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] As to full fledged great examples of dynamic menus: http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/menu/ http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/examples/menu/ They seem to possess the usability flaws earlier discussed in this thread. http://www.udm4.com/ Those are the ones I was referring to that might benefit from a little user guide for the site visitor :-) Christian, This is Web pages we are talking about - not operating systems. If I were inclined to believe what you are trying to say, I would most certainly drop back ten, punt, and transform my web site into something that looked like this: http://www.useit.com/ To imply that Yahoo - or Yahoo code is a model for anything is a bit hard for me to fathom :-) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] *Pure* CSS drop down menu
You seem to have lost me. Can you elaborate? Take the full example: http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/examples/menu/leftnavfromjs.html Sure. Here is an example that shows exactly what I meant: http://www.projectseven.com/csslab/testing/yahoomenu/yahoo.html http://www.udm4.com/ Those are the ones I was referring to that might benefit from a little user guide for the site visitor :-) Again, please elaborate, what do you mean by user guide? The basic UDM menu is OK. When you opt for the full complement of keyboard browsing features, it becomes bloated and less intuitive. While you have your ideas on web UIs, I have mine and mine tell me that ordinary people, surfing the web, are in mouse mode or, at best, Tab key/Alt key mode. They are not going to have the foggiest idea that arrow keys are enabled. It is very cool, but over the top - in my opinion :-) If browsers were meant to have multi level menus, there'd be a W3C standard interface element for it - oh wait, there is: http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#h-17.6 http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/images/optgroup_exmpl.gif Funny it never got implemented that way in browsers... Tantek actually did implement that in IE5 Mac. But that's a whole other story. I truly believe you make much more of this than there needs to be. -- Al *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] *Pure* CSS drop down menu
On 6 Oct 2006, at 22:46, Al Sparber wrote: You seem to have lost me. Can you elaborate? Take the full example: http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/examples/menu/leftnavfromjs.html Sure. Here is an example that shows exactly what I meant: http://www.projectseven.com/csslab/testing/yahoomenu/yahoo.html And it is an old issue. In Feb 1999 Bruce Tognazzini mentions a cone- shaped window for the mouse path developed for Apple in his answer to Question 6 (sorry, no purple numbers). http://www.asktog.com/columns/022DesignedToGiveFitts.html Are people really re-discovering this? It would seem that way. We tend to address the limitation by including timers (Tog's half-second delay) because it's the only solution for a browser-rendered menu. It gets the job done :-) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible, lightweight JavaScript menu - which ones do people like?
From: Andrew Krespanis [EMAIL PROTECTED] plug I only use James Edwards' Ultimate Dropdown Menu - http://udm4.com/ It's not the lightest JS menu, but I do believe it's the most accessible and has a very good feature set with extensive documentation. Any of my clients who have needed a drop-down nav have gotten UDM and have always been happy. Well worth the price. /plug I hear the same things often. Although it's not my style of code and the weight is not something we would approve of, it's a very good menu. Licensing issues for a web designer could get expensive, but the docs look very thorough. I won't discuss our commercial menu tools for obvious reasons, but will say that we are known for quality code and offer unlimited free support via nntp, email, and telphone. I will, however, plug our free CSS Express Menu as it addresses many of the shortcomings in the Suckerfish approach. It also works in IE5 Mac and allows up to 10 instances of the menu on a page. I'd hate to see people capitalize on that, but it is available :-) http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/navigation/auto_hide/index.htm Note that one of the Suckerfish shortcomings we address, we do so by forbidding people from doing sub-menus that pop out to the right of the root :-) -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] obj.style.backgroundImage
From: Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
document.getElementById('column1').style.backgroundImage=url('c1.jpg');
We usually don't use that method (haven't had a need to yet). We
often
do similar tasks by changing classes.
That's what I do this with pure CSS solutions [1], but when JS is
used I
just don't see a reason for binding the images to the stylesheet.
[1] http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/css%20pop%20ups/6.asp
It depends on your purpose, your style, and your target audience - I
imagine :-)
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Re: [WSG] Article: using JS to plug IMG in headings
From: Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To nitpick, though, by most definitions perfect can't be improved upon, hence it can be perceived as a tad presumptuous to use it... http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/perfect Reminds me of my old Osterizer food blender and its Infinite Speed setting. I would urge Thierry to ditch the word perfect because it could be construed by some visitors as either arrogant or theatrical. No replies necessary :-) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Doctype Strict JS drop down menus IE
I'm using project seven's pop menu magic http://www.projectseven.com/products/menusystems/pmm/index.htm on a site with XHTML strict doctype. This causes IE to come up with a yellow bar saying it is blocking active content - click to ..etc. This is not acceptable to the client. When I changed the doctype to transitional the problem went away, however I would prefer to stay with strict. Can someone please explain to me what is happening and what I need to do to fix this. Unfortunately I am unable to show you the site. -- I corrected your xml meta tag syntax and distilled your page down to the menu. I then removed all the redundant style rules and combined them into a more efficient mix - as best I could. There are still some redundancies, but none are harmful anymore. I embedded the corrected style sheet in the page head: http://www.projectseven.com/testing/customers/helen/ -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] accessible drop-down?
There is a javascript link that drops down initially invisible content. The functionality is at this link: http://www.cachildwelfareclearinghouse.org/leadership/advisory-committee#com mittee-role Click on The Role of the Advisory Committee. Can anyone react on the accessibility of this feature? I would appreciate any feedback. Vertically-oriented pure CSS popout menus present some usability issues. You can look for some recent discussion of this on this list. Once past those issues, the problem I see on your page is that you are using the poorly thought out Suckerfish method of hiding the sub-menus offscreen. This is very bad because if you attempt to browse with your keyboard, you are going to be tabbing through invisible links... very confusing. The only good point I see is that the links in your sub-menus are prepresented in the main content area on the relevant main section page. To fix the tabbing problem, change your CSS approach for hiding the sub-menus to use display: none and then display:block to show them. -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] accessible drop-down?
From: Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] Vertically-oriented pure CSS popout menus present some usability issues. You can look for some recent discussion of this on this list. Once past those issues, the problem I see on your page is that you are using the poorly thought out Suckerfish method of hiding the sub-menus offscreen. This is very bad because if you attempt to browse with your keyboard, you are going to be tabbing through invisible links... very confusing. The only good point I see is that the links in your sub-menus are prepresented in the main content area on the relevant main section page. To fix the tabbing problem, change your CSS approach for hiding the sub-menus to use display: none and then display:block to show them. Duh... you weren't asking about those menus :-) But the advice on that still stands. I did not see your dropdown menu becasue there is really no indication it is there. These fashinable new animated scripts are cool - but often unnecessary. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Doctype Strict JS drop down menus IE
Helen Rysavy wrote: Hi I'm using project seven's pop menu magic http://www.projectseven.com/products/menusystems/pmm/index.htm on a site with XHTML strict doctype. This causes IE to come up with a yellow bar saying it is blocking active content - click to ..etc. This is not acceptable to the client. When I changed the doctype to transitional the problem went away, however I would prefer to stay with strict. Can someone please explain to me what is happening and what I need to do to fix this. Unfortunately I am unable to show you the site. Hi Helen, There is nothing inherent in the menu code that would cause that. It could very well be an issue with your page layout and page CSS. I did a quick example with a strict DOCTYPE and all seems well: http://www.projectseven.com/products/menusystems/pmm/testing/strict/ Do you have a page link you can send privately? -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CSS flyout menu
From: John 'Max' Maxwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi All - back again and hopefully without any need for any javascript. If anyone has a second could they please take a look at this again at www.project.ex16.co.uk and let m eknow how the flyout menu performs on their specific set-up. That makes the menu totally unusable, in my opinion ... is that a bit strong or is it me? I think the navigation on my page above is pretty straight forward to use and a lot better than some seen on the net - it certainly isn't 'totally unusable' - thank you. I mouse over Seniors. I see the sub-menu. I want to click on Athletic. I jusr worked out and my arm muscles are a bit quivery. My natural tendency is to move my mouse diagonally, following the straightest possible path to my destination. The popout menu keeps snapping shut on me. I would say, this approach is more usable: http://www.projectseven.com/csslab/testing/listmenus/exp_vproto/ -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CSS flyout menu
From: John 'Max' Maxwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] I would say, this approach is more usable: http://www.projectseven.com/csslab/testing/listmenus/exp_vproto/ ? Surely if you try to go from 'bridges' to 'manhattan' it does the same thing - vanishes? It's a lot less likely to happen. We actually conducted a lab on this very menu, as it is to be a future product. Are you actually saying you prefer the alternative of a larger button as a 'method'? I presumed after your damning review that you were going to show me a whizz bang alternative that only a proper coder could achieve ... not a 'bigger button'. I apologize if you think my review was damning. I was trying to give you a little advice. You don't have to accept it. I'll take all the usability issues on board thanks but what I really meant was - does it work. From a purely mechanical standpoint, yes - it does function as I believe you intend it to. Sorry if you misunderstood my intentions and best of luck to you. -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CSS flyout menu
Also, for all the people advocating using a JavaScript solution, remember to make sure the submenus are visible when JavaScript is turned off. A lot of the examples I have seen do not degrade nicely with JavaScript disabled - the submenus just become inaccessible. I know you *can* make the submenus work (by making them always visible) with JavaScript off, I just think sometimes people forget to test their sites with JavaScript off. It's very easy, but not always the best solution :-) Perhaps this article will at least explain my personal perspective on the matter: http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/accessibility/pop_integrated/index.htm -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CSS flyout menu
From: David Dorward Submenus lack keyboard access That could be desirable if the site is engineered in a certain way. and menus vanish unless the mouse is dragged diagonally to the submenu item instead of along and then down. That makes the menu totally unusable, in my opinion. Tis the Achilles heel of pure CSS menus. -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standalone IE7
As it was said before (I don't remember if it was in this list), although Virtual PC is free now, OSs for it aren't. Besides RAM you also need quite a lot of disk space, if you want to have several versions of IE working as they should, each in his own Virtual PC instance. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Assuming most web developers on Windows are using XP Pro, you can have as many XP Pro VPCs as you want without requiring additional licenses. One additional OS, say Win2K, would serve to run as a VPC for IE5.x. A professional web developer would also tend to have a modern computer, which would tend to have at least 1GB RAM and a large hard drive. We're talking tools of the trade, as it were. The RAM used by VPC is only used when you are running the VPC. We use VPC only to run beta software. Our offices are set up with dedicated machines to run testing browsers in environments similar to what real users would be doing. That is, we run IE5.0 and IE5.5 on Windows 98SE and Win2K machines, respectively. Actually, the hardest browser to test, in terms of infrastructure, is Safari. Since Safari updates are OS dependent, our offices run 3 Macs... 1 Jaguar, 1 Panther, and 1 Tiger. This is a far bigger problem than IE ever was :-) That said, for a young, a new, a hobby developer, or someone with a very limited budget, standalone IE might be the only option. If that;s the case, I would urge a careful deployment, along with the attendant registry hacks to fix version identification issues. But I'd also consider at least one additional testing machine, as an industry requirement with the same priorities as a young business manager needing to invest in a couple of nice suits :-) -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] MS Staff Blogs not W3C compliant...
From: Dave Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED] A few days ago, my browsers ended up on http://www.microsoft.com/nz/msdn/team.aspx after reading a few stories about IE7 and the fact that it won't be W3C standards compliant like nearly every other browser (e.g. various Mozilla Gecko-based browsers like Firefox, KHTML-based browsers like Safari and Konqueor, and Presto-based browsers like Opera, etc.). Out of mild curiosity, I looked at some of the Microsoft staff blogs linked to from the above page, and again, for the fun of it, ran them through the W3C validator at http://validator.w3.org/check/referer (I use the Firefox web developer extension - a must have for those that don't already use it) The IE WebDev toolbar is pretty cool, too... but so is having the W3C validator bookmarked (works in all browsers). I think you've raised some serious issues and I would hope that a criminal investigation ensues. We have a few errors here and there, I'm sure, too - so please don't check us out too carefully ;-) -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Safari filter
A site I'm working on has both a screen and a handheld stylesheet. Safari is loading them both, which is causing some major problems. The site is served as xhtml, and the stylesheets are loaded by PIs. Is there any way to filter out the handheld stylesheet from Safari? Safari is a decent browser but I don't what Apple was thinking when it tied updates and bug fixes to OS upgrades. In any event, Safari bugs are related to the OS X version you are running. I believe that if you order your style sheets, thusly, it might work around the bug: 1. handheld 2. screen Let us know if that works. -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: Re: [WSG] Safari filter
I believe that if you order your style sheets, thusly, it might work around the bug: 1. handheld 2. screen It changes quite a bit, but still is messed up. Gotta love those guys :-) If you can, post a link to the page, I'd like to test it in Safari on Panther to see if that version has issues too. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Safari filter
FWIW, my experience is that you won't get very far using media types for applying screen versus handheld styles anyway. Internet Explorer Mobile, for one, will load both screen and handheld media types, and a communication from a member of the Windows Mobile team told me that this was by design. Other handheld browsers will load both because they were written by some jerk who didn't read the spec, and never realised what they were supposed to be doing. I think the fact that a screen browser is rendering a handheld media type is the issue, no? Frankly, my job would end with a proper handheld style sheet. If someone was using a browser that didn't honor it, I wouldn't consider it my problem. I would be concerned about a screen browser that can't process the media type attribute correctly - even if it's a minor player like Safari. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: Re: [WSG] Safari filter
If you can, post a link to the page, I'd like to test it in Safari on Panther to see if that version has issues too. http://www.kennygraham.net/wsg_cssd/safaribug/ Fails on Panther Safari (1.3.2) too. Passes on Camino, Firefox, and Opera. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: Re: [WSG] Safari filter
On a conventional xhtml page, this passes in Safari:
style type=text/css media=handheld
h1 {color: #FF;}
/style
style type=text/css media=handheld
@import url(kenny.css);
/style
link href=kenny.css rel=stylesheet type=text/css
media=handheld /
The external sheets contain one rule:
h1 {color: #FF;}
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Re: [WSG] IE7 and css navigation (from solardreamstudios)
From: Kepler Gelotte Hi Antti, Instead of relying on JavaScript to make your menus functional in IE, why not try a pure CSS solution like: http://www.grc.com/menu2/invitro.htm Deploying totally screwy markup with Conditional Comments (a veritable bushel of them in this case) does not look like a very good solution. I would recommend Suckerfish or our free CSS Express: http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/navigation/auto_hide/index.htm It's also a good idea with these kinds of barebones scripts to limit sub-menus to a single level. Flyouts from the dropdowns in these menus present large usability problems. -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Equal height divs
Again learning from your experience. I am trying to implement http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/css/pvii_columns/ to a design where I need both (navigation and content) have the same height. I try to do it because each div has a background color, and I want them to reach the footer no matter their content. What do you think about it? How do you do these things? It's a good solution if non-scripted CSS methods (such as faux columns) will not work for you. Faux columns can get more complicated then they are worth, for example, if you have a fluid layout or complex background images. In that case, a scripted solution is often preferable. You might want to post an example of your page. -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Active link bug
There seems to be a minor bug with the active link highlighting on our web site: http://www.webnauts.net. If I click on blog, directory or forum, and then use the back button in my browser to go back to Home, it still highlights the link that I clicked on to get there. Can someone help me out? I really cannot see whats wrong there. That's the way the active pseudoclass works in IE Windows. It will retain focus until you move focus elsewhere. -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS based menu popping behind Flash movie only in Safari problem
From: Corrie Potter [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have a CSS based dynamic menu that drops down and there is a flash movie that is right under the menu. The flash movie is set to transparent and the menu pops down over the flash menu in all browsers correctly except in Safari. In Safari the menu displays over the flash movie but when you go over the top of sub menu items they drop behind the flash movie for some reason. Is there anyone out there that can help me? I really appreciate it! It's a Safari bug. Last year, a Macromedia engineer filed a bug report with Apple. It has not been acted upon. The only workarounds are to either: 1. Get rid of Flash (usually not a bad idea :-) 2. Use a script to hide or replace the Flash when the submenus are being shown. 3. Eliminate all hover behaviors for the submenus. You can also write to Apple and report the issue. I imagine if enough people report it, they might decide to fix it. It seems tied to the techniques that Safari uses to create the illusion of speed. Mozilla uses similar tricks, but with a bit more aplomb :-) -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS based menu popping behind Flash movie only in Safari problem
From what I can find in the bug reports at http://bugzilla.opendarwin.org/ at least some WebKit developers seem to be of the opinion that this is due to a bug in the Flash plugin - see for example the comments at: http://bugzilla.opendarwin.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10111 But also see http://bugzilla.opendarwin.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6996 which casts some doubt on where exactly responsibility lies. I think it actually casts more than doubt, the thread kind of ends with this remark: Firefox (using the same Flash v8 plugin) draws the menu's correctly. There are related bugs in Safari that become apparent when usinig the DOM to add behavior to a page. They are obviously taking shortcuts to make their browser appear as fast as they can. But I guess that kind of goes off-topic, so that's all he wrote :-) -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE7 news
From: Roberto Gorjão [EMAIL PROTECTED] Right now, I work with XP SP2 (home edition, sigh!) and IE6. I have IE3, IE4, IE5 and IE5.5, all as standalone versions. The standalone hack should only be used as a last resort by web designers who cannot afford the luxury of dedicated testing machines or a VPC setup. If one does do the hack they need to make sure to also hack the registry to ensure proper version identification. There have been cases reported of OS corruptions after repeated installs and uninstalls. While a lot of people use the standalone hack, it should be stated that it is a hack and does have potential problems. -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Dvorak talks when he doesn't know? (re: Why CSS Bugs Me)
From: Christian Montoya
From Links for Light Reading, July 19:
Why CSS Bugs Me
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1987181,00.asp
I just realized that Dvorak's entire rant about CSS cascading rules
might just be another example of a tech expert talking nonsense
regarding an area he knows nothing about.
bodydiv { this does not cascade; }
Just another case of CSS getting the blame for something IE doesn't
support, am I right?
It looks like the type of rant we get from very frustrated customers.
To me, this is the telling line:
If your Internet connection happens to lose a bit of CSS data, you
get a mess on your screen.
I think Dvorak needs to learn a bit first before he writes.
--
Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday.
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[WSG] anotherCSS Menu Tutorial
http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/navigation/auto_hide/ CSS-driven in Firefox, Opera, Safari, and IE7. A wee script for IE Windows --- and also for IE5 Mac. As with all Pure CSS menus, it should never be used for more than one sub-level or in a vertical orientation for obvious usability reasons. Enjoy (or not) :-) -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Need help with vertical accordian menu
From: morten fjellman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank you :) That got me started. I do think the main problem I face is how to make the menu expand. I was thinking maybe using display hidden to hide the links when not active. Am I on the right track here, or is JavaScript the only way to make this work? For an expanding menu operated with mouse clicks, JavaScript is necessary. Perhaps the scripts on this page will help you: http://www.projectseven.com/csslab/swapclass/outline/ It can easily be adapted to work with lists or any type of markup you'd like to use. -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Image Replacement
Paul Bennett wrote: While Google can program its spiders to look for text patterns in a page's markup, I would bet a large sum that it cannot read an external style sheet and be able to connect the dots, as it were. http://www.threadwatch.org/node/4313#comment-26923 If it tried, it would fail and, worse, invite an awful lot of lawsuits. Why? Google provides a free service. They can do whatever they like with their algorithms, and they have (frequently) in the past. Can you explain why penalising sites that use css to hide text would invite lawsuits? Admin(s) - feel free to step in if I'm taking this thread OT for the WSG list - I'd like to keep the signal/noise ratio high. I can answer that question. You just raised the noise level yourself :-) Forget the lawsuits - it's not relevant and I shouldn't have mentioned it. My assertion is that they cannot read an external style sheet and relate it to the page in the way your original quote could be perceived. If they could, many of the sites habitually visited by standards and CSS fans would not be appearing in Google's search results. It's not just image replacement. You are talking about Eric Meyer's Pure CSS Popups, the ever-popular Suckerfish menu, many sites using AJAX, Adobe.com, Microsoft.com, Opera.com... it goes on and on. All the sites I mentioned use visibility, display, overflow, position, or text-indent properties in one way or another. -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] div in li
From: Tee G.Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is it legal to place a div in .li? Something like this .lix div it does validate/div /li I am using XHTML 1.0 strict doctype and it doesn't show validate error, also, the WAI validation from content quality site doesn't give me warning or error, but I feel so uncertain about it. If you must know why I place a div tag inside the li tag - it's from the PVII image gallery script for adding description. The div tag is generated by the gallery script. We're legal, Tee :-) -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS is dead... use markup for presentation.
From: Gunlaug Sørtun [EMAIL PROTECTED] sarcastic pony Looks like most efforts towards separation of content and presentation may cause severe accessibility-failures[1] in the future. Looks like there will be no need/use for valid markup either - according to the latest WGAC 2.0 draft. Ref: article on ALA[2]. Time to go back to presentational markup - before some /body/ at W3C forces us into doing so? :-) /sarcastic pony Oh, well... it looks like all those W3C /bodies/ are pretty busy trying to make each other, and standard-based web design, irrelevant. Which parts/paths do you think we should choose to follow? It's hard to tell who the good guys are :-) http://wcagsamurai.org/ -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS is dead... use markup for presentation.
From: David Laakso [EMAIL PROTECTED] David Laakso wrote: Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: After looking at the responses, I guess 'use common sense, and wait till the dust settles ... Georg Maybe you should tend the Rhododendrons and quit stirring up trouble...I can tell, this is going to go on for weeks, if not months-- perhaps years, if not decades. Time for me to un-subscribe(again). Whoops. Meant to send to friend Georg, not the list :-P . That's OK. I'm into landscaping. Tell me more about the rhododendrons :-) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables - you can still use them in web design article
From: Nick Lo [EMAIL PROTECTED] I know there are plenty of these articles but unfortunately I got drawn into this one (possibly as it was in my Netregistry newsletter!): -- http://www.netregistry.com.au/news/articles/79/1 I always found Barry Pearson to be enormously entertaining and thorough. I don't necessarily agree with everything he says, but it's a fun read - so long as you read it open-mindedly :-) http://www.barry.pearson.name/articles/layout_tables/index.htm -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables - you can still use them in web design article
From: Michael Yeaney [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ok...I'll bite: Aside from accessibility (which is huge - I know), what does happen if I decide to use a table somewhere for layout control (alien invasion, mass hysteria, cats and dogs living together)?? Nothing will happen if you do it for a legitimate personal reason, and - most importantly - keep it to yourself :-) Asking for validation among your peers, indicates, you are either not sure or you are baiting the fanatics :-) -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] onKeyPress or not onKeyPress
From: Katrina [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am currently reading a book called 'DOM Scripting' by Jeremy Keith. In it, the author suggests not to use onKeyPress as it can lead to accessibility issues when users are tabbing past those elements with that eventHandler. I would (and do) avoid onKeyPress. Most people I observe using it, do so because they have onclick events embedded and when they run the page through an automated accessibility checker it throws an error :-) As you've gathered, onkeypress wreaks havoc with people's expectations when using the tab key. In 99% of the browsers on the market, the Enter key will fire an onclick. In some modern browsers, onkeypress will prevent the Enter key from behaving as one would expect it. -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] onKeyPress or not onKeyPress
From: Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] Test this page for yourself: http://www.projectseven.com/testing/keypress/ -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] onKeyPress or not onKeyPress
From: Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] Test this page for yourself: http://www.projectseven.com/testing/keypress/ Thanks for the test case, Al... that wasn't my point though. I was looking for documented cases where Safari didn't work with onclick. I *know* that it works just fine with my current version of Safari. I'm looking for history that shows where it didn't in the past. Ah. We upgraded all of our Macs to Panther and Tiger, but, if memory serves, early builds of Safari on Jaguar might have exhibited a failure to execute onclick with the keyboard. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Trubuchet MS font not showing in IE
From: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm pretty sure that IE doesn't call the font Trebuchet MS but rather just Trebuchet. No. Trebuchet MS is correct. The shorthand notation is the problem. The font-weight needs to come first: font: normal 1em Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Markup for an FAQ?
From: Joseph Bernhardt [EMAIL PROTECTED] I disagree. I think the answer to a question is its definition. Think of it like a dictionary. It depends on the nature of the questions and answers. In many cases a heading and a paragraph are perfectly appropriate. I'll leave the issue of whether some FAQs should be unordered lists or definition lists as a matter of opinion. -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] UL/LI or DL/DT for drop down menu
From: Cole Kuryakin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello All I'm putting together a drop down menu that currently uses UL as the container and LI's as the tag for each menu item. What does everyone think of this in regards to symantics? Should I be using a DL/DT pairing instead - it seems to me that drop-down lists could be considered definition lists. I don't know, I go back and forth on this. Menu would be the obvious choice, but it's been deprecated. Interested in this communities opinion. For a menu, an unordered list would probably be the better choice. -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
