Re: Mailman in Perl (Re: the list is dead, long live the list)
On Sun, Jan 14, 2001 at 11:26:28PM -0500, Mark Rogaski wrote: It's also sheer idiocy to pipe arbitrary code from an untrusted, unverified source directly to the shell. How is it less secure than downloading a tar file and typing ./configure? Admittedly you *could* check several meg of source for trojans, but I don't believe you *do*. Michael
Re: Mailman in Perl (Re: the list is dead, long live the list)
On Mon, Jan 15, 2001 at 10:42:34AM +, Steve Mynott wrote: "David H. Adler" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Oh, you're much too kind. My redhat box is disintigrating before my very eyes. root partition filled up for no reason and, thus I looked at the partition table: / /boot /home With home being the largest. What *were* they thinking when they configured this? I don't think you can really blame the distribution (which allows you to partition the disk how you want) for someone partitioning the disk wrongly. Except that the box came to me like this. I intend to rectify this in a bit by scaping red hat off with a large trowel and installing something useful, but I'm still trying to figure out why *anyone* would partition it this way... :-/ dha -- David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/ There are 6 billion people in the world, and only 30 billion of those are Canadians - Headline in the Toronto Globe and Mail
Re: Mailman in Perl (Re: the list is dead, long live the list)
David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yeah, I know, but then I compile plenty of stuff from scratch rather than rely on RPMs. The real reason I haven't switched is because it's really The drawback with 'make install' from source is that it doesn't write a database of files owned by that source package which is the great advantage of binary packages. So you can't use do 'make uninstall' to cleanly remove the program if you don't like or use it. This is basically what the *BSD ports system does. It should be possible to write some wrapper for GNU configure to add a 'make uninstall' to the Makefile. In the absence of this I usually type 'script' to log whats installed at the 'make install' stage.. *nasty* trying to switch from one distro to another without a) losing valuable config data and b) ending up with a ton of unused junk on the disk The way to handle UNIX configuration files is like software and use RCS. On every system you can then type one command 'locate ,v' to see all your local changes. You can then systematically port config changes to the new distribution. which is nigh-on impossible to tell apart from stuff that's in use. It's a one liner to display files that haven't been used in the last three months using 'find -atime'. Other advantage of binary package managers is you can then go ahead and delete large chunks of your OS that you never use and it should warn you if it breaks other stuff. -- 1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] if we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it? - albert einstein
Re: Mailman in Perl (Re: the list is dead, long live the list)
On Sun, Jan 14, 2001 at 05:01:55AM +, Shevek wrote: I had always committed to the nature of Unix being that one does end up with a pile of stuff on disk which one doesn't use. for i in etc usr; do find /$i -mount -type f -atime +60 | perl -lne unlink; done :-) The point is that this doesn't matter. There are some downsides: if you have have old binaries that have slipped out of the upgrade/patch cycle you are looking at a potential security risk. I have thought in the past "1GB is *bound* to be a big enough /usr!" and when I hit 85% utilisation have to look at upgrading my disk, faffing with extra mounts or a suffering performance hit. Or clearing it all up. I bet you have libc5 and libc6 installed... # dpkg -l | grep libc[56] ii libc6 2.2-1 GNU C Library: Shared libraries and Timezone [snip other shit] # Paul
Re: Mailman in Perl (Re: the list is dead, long live the list)
On Sun, Jan 14, 2001 at 11:26:28PM -0500, Mark Rogaski wrote: An entity claiming to be David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: : : It's more than cute. It's *BRILLIANT*. The user doesn't even have to : know what computer they have. Whilst they only support a couple of : combinations of architecture and OS in that script, it would be pretty : damned trivial to have it support a few Linux distros, Solaris, *BSD : and MacOS X. : It's also sheer idiocy to pipe arbitrary code from an untrusted, unverified source directly to the shell. But it's so much fun! Well, on someone else's shift, anyway... :-) dave, just kidding, in case there was some question... -- David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/ "You can't give a 4 to truth." - Saul Williams
Re: Mailman in Perl (Re: the list is dead, long live the list)
On Sat, Jan 13, 2001 at 02:53:57PM +, David Cantrell wrote: Surely, then, rpm should have the ability to install and fetch dependencies from the network automagically? Yes it should. It doesn't. Which is why Helix's installer is so much easier to use. start type="holy_war" Or, more sensibly, debian. apt-get install foo already knows how to fetch foo from the network and install, grabbing any required dependencies. I even hear you can use it with rpms these days. Michael
Re: Mailman in Perl (Re: the list is dead, long live the list)
On Sat, Jan 13, 2001 at 05:19:18PM -0600, Paul Makepeace wrote: It continues to amaze me that people still use Red Hat. It's just a pile of marketing driven crap. Debian is so far superior it hurts watching people struggle with RPMs. Yeah, I know, but then I compile plenty of stuff from scratch rather than rely on RPMs. The real reason I haven't switched is because it's really *nasty* trying to switch from one distro to another without a) losing valuable config data and b) ending up with a ton of unused junk on the disk which is nigh-on impossible to tell apart from stuff that's in use. -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
Re: Mailman in Perl (Re: the list is dead, long live the list)
On Sun, 14 Jan 2001, David Cantrell wrote:
rely on RPMs. The real reason I haven't switched is because it's really
*nasty* trying to switch from one distro to another without a) losing
valuable config data and b) ending up with a ton of unused junk on the disk
which is nigh-on impossible to tell apart from stuff that's in use.
I had always committed to the nature of Unix being that one does end up
with a pile of stuff on disk which one doesn't use. The point is that this
doesn't matter. Unless you're upgrading something every day or every week,
the junk pile-up on a production server won't do much more than double or
treble the hard disk usage of the OS, which will be small compared to the
user data, and is still in a small order of magnitude.
I bet you have libc5 and libc6 installed...
It's still smaller than win2k...
S.
--
Shevek
I am the Borg.
sub AUTOLOAD { ($s=$AUTOLOAD)=~s/.*:://; eval qq{ *$AUTOLOAD=$s
?sub {$s*{$s-1}} :sub {1}; }; goto $AUTOLOAD; } print {'4'};
Re: the list is dead, long live the list
Some people like "bernsteinisms"! ;-) "Paul Makepeace" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: "David Cantrell" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Exactly. I just can't handle bernsteinisms when there are good alternatives available - exim (easy), postfix (secure), mailman. I can only put up with his oddities when the alternative is worse. djbdns vs bind. Totally agreed. FWIW, exim + mailman is a slick, effective solution. # apt-get install mailman and implementing http://www.exim.org/howto/mailman.html Paul -- 1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] i'm gonna climb on the mountains of the moon and find the distant man waving his spoon
Re: Mailman in Perl (Re: the list is dead, long live the list)
Following the interest in rope/pope, etc perhaps it would be an idea for some of the more perl / oss oriented companies in london (or wherever) to agree to take part in the project on a semi official basis - much of what the work that the london and UK companies do is replicated because of lack of comunications and worry over company secrets and competition. If a handful of london companies can put together a press release saying that they are supporting or backing the project with time, money, services in lieu, etc then it would be a publicity coup and get the ball rolling. A. -- A HREF = "http://termisoc.org/~betty" Betty @ termisoc.org /A "As a youngster Fred fought sea battles on the village pond using a complex system of signals he devised that was later adopted by the Royal Navy. " (this email has nothing to do with any organisation except me)
Re: Mailman in Perl (Re: the list is dead, long live the list)
* Aaron Trevena ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Following the interest in rope/pope, etc perhaps it would be an idea for some of the more perl / oss oriented companies in london (or wherever) to agree to take part in the project on a semi official basis - much of what the work that the london and UK companies do is replicated because of lack of comunications and worry over company secrets and competition. If a handful of london companies can put together a press release saying that they are supporting or backing the project with time, money, services in lieu, etc then it would be a publicity coup and get the ball rolling. the first thing they could offer to do is to host the final rpms/tar.gz's what about the actual mechanics of putting rope together? i'm assuming we'd create a /usr/local/Rope, build the latest stable perl in there, then configure apache for mod_perl etc and install it under there as well, the the other modules. finally is it enough to simply tar.gz /usr/local/Rope and tag it with the architecture details we would probably need some final install program to be run, that would handle the local details of the system - such as what user to run apache as comments? suggestions? -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: Mailman in Perl (Re: the list is dead, long live the list)
On Fri, Jan 12, 2001 at 02:16:15PM +, Andy Wardley wrote: Said I: In all fairness, I have to say that mailman is an *excellent* mailing list manager. Said David H. Adler: So why haven't you reimplemented it in perl? :) Are you sitting comfortably? :-) Because the tools aren't yet in place to allow me to do it within a truly flexible and generic application framework. [snip lengthy discussion of how to do this] Ah. I won't bother trying, then. :-) dha -- David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/ Also know as the first rule of finance: "Don't run out of money". - Tony Bowden
Re: Mailman in Perl (Re: the list is dead, long live the list)
On Fri, Jan 12, 2001 at 07:06:00PM +, Steve Mynott wrote: No you would want to build packages (.deb, .rpm and BSD and Solaris packages) of rope for a "binary" type install as well as supplying a "source" tar which works with make, make install. The installation method used by Helix is very nifty. lynx -source http://go-gnome.com/ | sh And that's it. -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
Re: Mailman in Perl (Re: the list is dead, long live the list)
On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, Paul Makepeace wrote: On Fri, Jan 12, 2001 at 08:28:25PM +, David Cantrell wrote: lynx -source http://go-gnome.com/ | sh that would rock. also what would be very valuable would be the ability to install from one config for a cluster or synchronise config changes (using a version control system of course). A. -- A HREF = "http://termisoc.org/~betty" Betty @ termisoc.org /A "As a youngster Fred fought sea battles on the village pond using a complex system of signals he devised that was later adopted by the Royal Navy. " (this email has nothing to do with any organisation except me)
Re: the list is dead, long live the list
On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 12:32:46PM +, Leon Brocard wrote: Jo Walsh sent the following bits through the ether: lets kill off the old list before the two get too far out of sync Nah, mailman on penderel - you know you want to! ;-) Yeah, we want our own mailing list server. And a pony.
Re: the list is dead, long live the list
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED] you write: Nah, mailman on penderel - you know you want to! ;-) Yeah, we want our own mailing list server. Mmph, it's not that hard to install Majordomo is it? If need be, just give me the root password and I'll go and set it up... And a pony. It's running Apache already, surely?
Re: the list is dead, long live the list
On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:16:19PM +, Jo Walsh wrote: i would sooner install qmail/ezmlm than mailman would ppl object? I'd rather see exim/mailman but qmail is cool too. The most important bit is to get *something* working :) Michael
Re: the list is dead, long live the list
On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:20:33PM +, Roger Burton West wrote: (Supposedly Mjd 2 is going to be better, RSN.) IIRC the postgresql mailing list are actually using it, or were. Don't think that it is done yet, tho. Smartlist is good. Mailman is good. ezmlm and qmail actually seem pretty nice, apart from the usual bernstein factor. Michael
Re: the list is dead, long live the list
On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:11:45PM +, Peter Corlett wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED] you write: Nah, mailman on penderel - you know you want to! ;-) Yeah, we want our own mailing list server. Mmph, it's not that hard to install Majordomo is it? If need be, just give me the root password and I'll go and set it up... /me has a bone to pick with majordomo. majordomo + virtual domains = a whole world of hurt -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
Re: the list is dead, long live the list
On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:27:50PM +, David Cantrell wrote: /me has a bone to pick with majordomo. majordomo + virtual domains = a whole world of hurt It's doable, you'll just wish you hadn't. Michael
Re: the list is dead, long live the list
On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:25:26PM +, Greg Cope wrote: Roger Burton West wrote: Smartlist is good. Mailman is good. ezmlm is better Other than its unfortunate reliance on qmail. -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
RE: the list is dead, long live the list
From: Peter Corlett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 January 2001 13:12 In article [EMAIL PROTECTED] you write: Nah, mailman on penderel - you know you want to! ;-) Yeah, we want our own mailing list server. Mmph, it's not that hard to install Majordomo is it? If need be, just give me the root password and I'll go and set it up... We've had this discussion before (maybe in irc or in the pub) and decided that installing Majordomo would be a bad idea. I thought we'd decided on mailman as it seems to be the best MLM out there. Yes it's written in Python, but there's plenty of other software on the box which isn't written in Perl... ...and besides, there's a rumour that Andy Wardley has a hacked version of mailman that doesn't have the 'Powered by Python' logos :) Dave... -- The information contained in this communication is confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender and delete the original message or any copy of it from your computer system.
Re: the list is dead, long live the list
On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:39:18PM +, Michael Stevens wrote: On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:27:50PM +, David Cantrell wrote: /me has a bone to pick with majordomo. majordomo + virtual domains = a whole world of hurt It's doable, you'll just wish you hadn't. It's all working swimingly now. But I *really* regret redirecting mail to root to my phone. Good thing: the error messages were short enough to fit into an SMS Bad thing: they contained no useful information whatsoever I Will Not Give In. I Will Not Install Python. -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
Re: the list is dead, long live the list
An entity claiming to be David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: : : majordomo + virtual domains = a whole world of hurt : With a virtual user table under Sendmail, I would imagine it's not _that_ bad. Mark -- Mark Rogaski | "I've said this before but I'll say it again: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Smashing Pumpkins IS REO Speedwagon." http://www.pobox.com/~wendigo | -- Steve Albini __END__ | PGP signature
Re: the list is dead, long live the list
On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 01:51:15PM +, David Cantrell wrote: Good thing: the error messages were short enough to fit into an SMS Bad thing: they contained no useful information whatsoever I Will Not Give In. I Will Not Install Python. I actually kinda like python, from the little I've played with it. Michael
Re: the list is dead, long live the list
On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 02:07:20PM +, Andy Wardley wrote: In all fairness, I have to say that mailman is an *excellent* mailing list manager. So why haven't you reimplemented it in perl? :) dha -- David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/ Good marriages work this way too, by the way. I love my wife differently than I did at the beginning, but I certainly don't love her any less.- Larry Wall
Re: the list is dead, long live the list
* David H. Adler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 02:07:20PM +, Andy Wardley wrote: In all fairness, I have to say that mailman is an *excellent* mailing list manager. So why haven't you reimplemented it in perl? :) previous_comment delivery="gentle" because we are the perl community, all we ever do is talk or if you are lucky work on personal projects /previous_comment -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: the list is dead, long live the list
"David H. Adler" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 02:07:20PM +, Andy Wardley wrote: In all fairness, I have to say that mailman is an *excellent* mailing list manager. So why haven't you reimplemented it in perl? :) As an XML and perl based application server? -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire -
Re: the list is dead, long live the list
From: "Andy Wardley" [EMAIL PROTECTED] In all fairness, I have to say that mailman is an *excellent* mailing list manager. Yes it is. Majordomo is the wrong choice for the 21st century. Once again I'll offer to run the list on euro.pm.org but if y'all'd rather debate stuff go ahead :-) Paul
Re: the list is dead, long live the list
* Paul Makepeace ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: From: "Andy Wardley" [EMAIL PROTECTED] In all fairness, I have to say that mailman is an *excellent* mailing list manager. Yes it is. Majordomo is the wrong choice for the 21st century. Once again I'll offer to run the list on euro.pm.org but if y'all'd rather debate stuff go ahead :-) speaking from a personal opinion its a kind offer Paul, but it really should be run off the london server (currently) penderel.state51.co.uk (thanks state51!) - we've invested in the beatie and it would be a shame to see it not being used for instance i've logged on and seen it with 0% CPU usage, why don't we run at least the distributed net client on it - well the reason is we need organisation of the running of it, jo's deserves a sainthood (or the female version of it) for what she has done so far but we need to organise it properly - anyway see the other mail i sent recently thanks again for the offer! -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: the list is dead, long live the list
From: "David Cantrell" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Exactly. I just can't handle bernsteinisms when there are good alternatives available - exim (easy), postfix (secure), mailman. I can only put up with his oddities when the alternative is worse. djbdns vs bind. Totally agreed. FWIW, exim + mailman is a slick, effective solution. # apt-get install mailman and implementing http://www.exim.org/howto/mailman.html Paul
