Re: Facsimeles etc.
I am doomed to Hell, I promised myself to stay out of this thread forever. But I must reply to Eugene. There is legality and there is equity. The US copyright law is different from most of the European, admittedly. But both consider fair use. My harp ensemble (a group of from 6 to 10, depending on the season and the committments) routinely violates the copyright law. We shamelessly copy arrangements from current books written by fellow harpists who need the money from their publications. My folio of arrangements is mainly xerox copies. But at the same time we also routinely hire those same harpist as workshop teachers when they come to our area. The ensemble is amateur, we donate our music to nursing homes and such. The arranger/publishers have no objection as the promulgation of their music means more sales in the long run. But that may be possible as the harp community in the US is quite united and has nothing to argue about. There are more differences between harps than there are between Thorbos and Lutes, but we consider ourselves a community. The point is this, as a community we support each other, but we also steal from each other in a technical sense. My ensemble is in New Jersey, and once a year the harp community descends on Somerset, NJ from all of North America. The arrangers/publishers gain from the interest created by groups such as ours, and we gain by having them there. The openness of the Harp Society should be a model for the Lute Societies, if we want to promote the music and sound. Fifteen years ago the harp was rare in the world (not counting the orchestral pedal harps) except in Ireland. Now we get five thousand visitor at the local Somerset festival, and many buy harps and music. I have no commercial axe to grind, I help out for the joy of it. But even a lutenist should want to see the understanding of his music expanded, if only for his own ego at being at the center of it. It is a delicate balance between the fair use and promulgation, and the rights of the arranger/publisher. But I have little sympathy with one who might say It's mine, cause I found it and then demand an exhorbitant price. No skin off my ass, it will be years before I'm interested in the more esoteric facsimiles, if ever. I have to learn to play this beatie first. Best, Jon
Re: lute FAQ ??
I think I read the LSA is setting up one on their webpage. A good practical guide is Care of the lute - a small booklet from David van Edwards published by the (british) LS Thomas Am Sam, 2003-12-06 um 05.08 schrieb Christopher Schaub: Does a lute FAQ exist? I think it would be great to help newcomers and the curious with the basic questions. I've seen the thumb under/over question more than a few times just this year. Maybe a brief history with the basics on historical playing techniques, how to read various tab's, major composers and works, periods and also a good list of references. A good FAQ exists for the classical guitar newsgroup, and it saves a ton on repeating the same e-mails. Most of this material exists already, and it would just take some organizing. I'm volunteering to coordinate the first draft if folks are willing to contribute content. = web: http://www.christopherschaub.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss --
Re: Silvius Leopold Weiss
Hi Michael, I haven't read carefully through your weissplucked site yet. Just some small points: The name of the city is not Kessel but Kassel (and as far as I know the state I'm living in is called Hassia in english). To get an overview over the works you may want to look at http://www.tslaute.de/weiss/index.htm The database is designed for any kind of source or composer but up to now only Markus Lutz was so kind to contribute his database of Weiss' works and activly helped to develop this database. I will add a preview for Incipits soon. Thomas Am Sam, 2003-12-06 um 04.27 schrieb Michael Stitt: Just updated Weiss Plucked! Check out at: http://weissplucked.com/ Regards, Michael. - Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing -- -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss --
facsimile vs. modern transcription
Actually I don't believe TREE for instance produces facsimiles as promotional material. This will apply to other fields of production but not to lute related material. I have plenty of respect for Albert, even if he did facsimiles for image building purposes. I HAVE NO PROBLEMS WITH THAT (My transcriptions serve a similar purpose, not primarily though: I only transcribe what I love in the first place, and I frankly think they are no worse (i.e. a lot better) than the ones in Augsburg Ms.). Actually the decision to produce a facsimile could have different reasons, not only the image you may archieve. I am still working through Mylius to prepare an edition and somehow restrain from publishing edited pieces. I do well remember the discussions I had because I only did very few editing to one of Dowlands pavans included there. I think they were also on this list. There is a tendency that editors try to recompose passages or even complete pieces telling it couldn't have been that way and therefor purge some of the most interesting parts of the music as Lutz Kirchhof told it (of course in german). Actually it's very hard to tell what's an error and what is simply unusual ... So a facsimile is one way to avoid such discussions and leave the decision up to those playing the piece. So facsimiles could make life easier because it's academical accepted to publish facsimiles and the editing process isn't that hard. To find, correct and document the mistakes in an edition like Testudo Gallo Germanico (Tree) would be *very* time consuming! That could be a reason why academical editions are far more expensive than editions intended for players. to put is simply: he shouldn't consider us sheep following HIS middleclass+ status quo protocol. We are people with beliefs that may be different from his, and also with an understanding that such protocols are not conducive to the survival of lutenistic species (on top of being legally meaningless). Besides: submitting oneself to convention is not my idea of an interesting life. Conventions are to make life easier - nothing wrong with it. It's the priviledge of secure people to question them or at least some of them. -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss --
Re: Assorted Questions
And the most prominent may be Mountbatten, the former Battenbergs who I knew of a family in Connecticut a number of years ago by the name of Greenberg who performed early music together as Monteverdi Trio. Clever translation, eh? Leonard
Re: Lute Question
I have a question on Mat's notation. The one Dowland I've downloaded from one of the sites Jose-Luis mentioned seems to show an r where I would expect a c (second fret). That is a little convention to make it easier to read. An actual C could look like an E, especially when they are written on the lines. There are prints with actual Cs in them though. Attaignant comes to mind. cheers, To which I'd add that this r is not an R, but a Greek gamma. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: Silvius Leopold Weiss
Hi Michael, I haven't read carefully through your weissplucked site yet. Just some small points: The name of the city is not Kessel but Kassel (and as far as I know the state I'm living in is called Hassia in english). Actually simply Hesse is accepted, RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: Facsimeles etc.
James: I am not offended, I am in fact amused, but to a greater degree I am saddened. I know there is a healthy serving of ego around here seasoned with testosterone and good old fashioned hard headed I'm right and you're wrong. The Lute community is too small to harbor this kind of thing among individuals who, from what I can see are making, or have made, significant contributions to the world of the Lute. Making instruments and publishing facsimiles are both important engines that fuel this tiny universe of Early Music. I would hate for any of these individuals to get so pissed off that they discontinue contributing to this site, in particular, and abandon the Lute world, in general. By now it is quite obvious that no one is going to agree with the other and the debate can only get more ugly. Or as some of our local news anchors, aka talking heads, would say More uglier. (Yes they get paid to be that dense) Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 9:58 PM Subject: Re: Facsimeles etc. To all, Am I the only one who finds the name calling, and tone of some of these e-mail exchanges offensive? It's great to be passionate and have strong feelings about a subject, but how about a modicum of civility? I know, if you don't like it, don't read it; but the subject matter is interesting, so, I read. Sincerely, James --
Re: Facsimeles etc.
Hello Jon, At 01:17 AM 12/6/03 -0500, Jon Murphy wrote: There is legality and there is equity. The US copyright law is different from most of the European, admittedly. But both consider fair use. My harp ensemble (a group of from 6 to 10, depending on the season and the committments) routinely violates the copyright law. We shamelessly copy arrangements from current books written by fellow harpists who need the money from their publications. My folio of arrangements is mainly xerox copies. But at the same time we also routinely hire those same harpist as workshop teachers when they come to our area. The ensemble is amateur, we donate our music to nursing homes and such. The arranger/publishers have no objection as the promulgation of their music means more sales in the long run. But that may be possible as the harp community in the US is quite united and has nothing to argue about. There are more differences between harps than there are between Thorbos and Lutes, but we consider ourselves a community. I'm not certain of the legality here, but I believe if someone amongst your players has bought the arrangement, making some copies to assist his/her performance qualifies as fair use and is legal. Is there somebody out there who knows? But even a lutenist should want to see the understanding of his music expanded, if only for his own ego at being at the center of it. I don't have enough skill with any instrument to justify any ego, but I would like understanding of the music for any of my instruments expanded, of course. Fortunately, the bulk of the lute repertoire, almost all of it, is in public domain. This is where one's personal sense of ethics dictates xerographic practices. It is a delicate balance between the fair use and promulgation, and the rights of the arranger/publisher. But I have little sympathy with one who might say It's mine, cause I found it and then demand an exhorbitant price. No skin off my ass, it will be years before I'm interested in the more esoteric facsimiles, if ever. I have to learn to play this beatie first. Even when you do decide to pursue esoteric facsimiles, be aware that nobody can claim It's mine, 'cause I found it with material in the public domain, only the physical manifestations of that material can be owned. The facsimiles cannot be copyrighted in the US, only new material surrounding publication of a PD facsimile can be copyrighted. For example, if I find the lost Santiago de Murcia manuscript of Greater Hooplah at a garage sale and purchase it for US$4.37, that physical book is mine, I can restrict access to it as I see fit, but I cannot own the music it contains. de Murcia wrote it a great long time ago and the world at large owns it. If such a thing ever happened to me, I would probably make a copy for my personal use, allow a publishing co. that generates product I like (e.g., Editions Orphee) to copy it because such a firm has a greater ability than I to disseminate this material to the world at large, and then donate the manuscript to a public collection. Any publisher to print my find could copyright any supportive text to come of his/her modern research, new cover art, etc. associated with a publication, but not the facsimiles themselves. If you must have that material, you could either decide to buy the handsomely-bound modern printing of the facsimile with its historic text and new cover art or pursue it through the public collection where it was donated (or write to me before I part company with it and I'd be happy to swap for other copies of PD stuff not originating in a modern publication). Here is where the personal ethic thing comes in: I would not condone xeroxing the facsimile pages from the modern edition, even if legal, because that diminishes the publisher's ability to recoup expenses associated with publishing such a work. I don't believe that's right. You can decide for yourself. Sincerest wishes of luck to you and your harpers, Eugene
Re: Facsimeles etc.
Not meaning to get in to the fray and continue the hemorrhaging , but what effect does an apology in the first part of the attached message have, if you conclude in the end with another insult? Does that make the previous apology null and void? Is this not just a parting shot across the bow? Vance Wood. The apology wasn't mine. Michael's mail-client doesn't insert ** before quotations, so it gets hard to distinguish who whore what. Thames: To all, Your all right, I have been stupid to call MO these these names, and I apologies the the list. I'm actually am quite surprised at my self, although it felt really good a couple of times. It seems this is my coming of age on the list and a lost of innocence, that a least according to allot of private email to me, most people have gone through at some point or another. I think I will do what Thomas does. Anything from MO will be directly cycled into my Trash bin. Or is it possible to just have an email blocker for one individual on the list? Turovsky: Actually YES. That is why I get only secondary winds [pun intended] of MO exploits. RT RT
Re: Facsimeles etc.
The apology wasn't mine. Michael's mail-client doesn't insert ** before quotations, so it gets hard to distinguish who whore what Actually I got sucked back into it. What can I say, Now that I've followed this thing to the end, I retract my apologies, He is an Ape! Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 9:29 AM Subject: Re: Facsimeles etc. Not meaning to get in to the fray and continue the hemorrhaging , but what effect does an apology in the first part of the attached message have, if you conclude in the end with another insult? Does that make the previous apology null and void? Is this not just a parting shot across the bow? Vance Wood. The apology wasn't mine. Michael's mail-client doesn't insert ** before quotations, so it gets hard to distinguish who whore what. Thames: To all, Your all right, I have been stupid to call MO these these names, and I apologies the the list. I'm actually am quite surprised at my self, although it felt really good a couple of times. It seems this is my coming of age on the list and a lost of innocence, that a least according to allot of private email to me, most people have gone through at some point or another. I think I will do what Thomas does. Anything from MO will be directly cycled into my Trash bin. Or is it possible to just have an email blocker for one individual on the list? Turovsky: Actually YES. That is why I get only secondary winds [pun intended] of MO exploits. RT RT
Size of the lute world
As I was deleting another repetitive pain in the ass flame post in the ongoing battle between the greedy billionaire lute publishers and the brave Trotskyist proletariat struggling to free the world's tablature I think I noticed an estimate of about 4000 lute players worldwide. Is this a reasonable estimate? Would these range from serious players to people with a lute in the attic they haven't touched in 15 years? Include guitarists who tune their g string down a half step? Include the pipa and oud? Those people with a Lute Olsen signed basketball? As someone who has listened to and enjoyed lute music for over 20 years (and been playing for 4 months) it continues to surprise me how many people have never heard of the instrument or know its sound (though they have seen them in pictures). Have any of the lute societies made a coordinated effort to try to increase public awareness (realizing that about 2% of the general public would consider to buy any classical music CD)? It continues to amaze me that when the Renaissance Fair comes to South Florida it is PACKED for 2 weeks solid and yet there is not a single lute teacher less than a 5 hour drive away from me. I actually got excited when I glanced at the headline Odette May Head to South Florida before I realized they were talking about the hurricane. I've tried to do my part in a small way. I will be bringing my lutes into the Classical Guitar class at the high school my kids attend. I've tried to support those who make their living in the field by ordering 2 lutes newly made rather than second hand, ordering a number of music editions from Tree, Lyre and Orphee even though I have enough downloaded to keep me busy and buying most of the newly released CD's (which range from fantastic virtuoso performances to, ahem, less than steller efforts). No doubt my efforts are a drop in the bucket. (how many copies of a lute CD are usually sold anyway??). What have others done on an individual and/or organizational wide level?
Re: Size of the lute world
Hi! I don't know about the amount of lute players or enthusiasts. Nice to hear that you are willing to support the lute scene by buying editions and CDs - please visit as much concerts as possible, too! Actually that's what I would like people to do: attending concerts and supporting artist keeps the thing alive - no matter if it's the lute or classical guitar or painting or ... (although I personally am enjoying the lute the most ; - )) I don't know about the CD sales in the US but over here in europe it's a catastophe. You need to buy one of mine because me cellar is full of unsold CDs :- ) But: seriously the amount of CDs produced depends on the company the CD is Producing/marketing. Naxos or Sony will sell much more than small companies. Our CDs (small company) are made in a number of 500 to 2000 and it will takes several years to sell them. Best wishes Thomas Am Sam, 2003-12-06 um 23.55 schrieb Daniel Shoskes: As I was deleting another repetitive pain in the ass flame post in the ongoing battle between the greedy billionaire lute publishers and the brave Trotskyist proletariat struggling to free the world's tablature I think I noticed an estimate of about 4000 lute players worldwide. Is this a reasonable estimate? Would these range from serious players to people with a lute in the attic they haven't touched in 15 years? Include guitarists who tune their g string down a half step? Include the pipa and oud? Those people with a Lute Olsen signed basketball? As someone who has listened to and enjoyed lute music for over 20 years (and been playing for 4 months) it continues to surprise me how many people have never heard of the instrument or know its sound (though they have seen them in pictures). Have any of the lute societies made a coordinated effort to try to increase public awareness (realizing that about 2% of the general public would consider to buy any classical music CD)? It continues to amaze me that when the Renaissance Fair comes to South Florida it is PACKED for 2 weeks solid and yet there is not a single lute teacher less than a 5 hour drive away from me. I actually got excited when I glanced at the headline Odette May Head to South Florida before I realized they were talking about the hurricane. I've tried to do my part in a small way. I will be bringing my lutes into the Classical Guitar class at the high school my kids attend. I've tried to support those who make their living in the field by ordering 2 lutes newly made rather than second hand, ordering a number of music editions from Tree, Lyre and Orphee even though I have enough downloaded to keep me busy and buying most of the newly released CD's (which range from fantastic virtuoso performances to, ahem, less than steller efforts). No doubt my efforts are a drop in the bucket. (how many copies of a lute CD are usually sold anyway??). What have others done on an individual and/or organizational wide level? -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss --
Re: Size of the lute world
As I was deleting another repetitive pain in the ass flame post in the ongoing battle between the greedy billionaire lute publishers and the brave Trotskyist proletariat struggling to free the world's tablature I think I noticed an estimate of about 4000 lute players worldwide. Is this a reasonable estimate? No. I estimated a maximum of 3000. Would these range from serious players to people with a lute in the attic they haven't touched in 15 years? Include guitarists who tune their g string down a half step? Include the pipa and oud? Those people with a Lute Olsen signed basketball? No. It is based on membership lists of lute societies and Google sightings of unaffiliated players, with an added roach assumption that there is 1 more invisible lutenist to 2 already visibles. Also numbers of lute teachers and luthiers are taken into account. The number is expected to grow because several schools put out lutenists at a steady rate. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: Size of the lute world
Trouble is-a lot of them drop out or go underground because the group that should be supporting them and encouraging them is by far and away as friendly as a pack of junk yard dogs. As a whole I have never been exposed to a group, boasting interest passionately in a particular endeavor, that is more driven by ego, pride, condescension, duplicity and judgementalism. You hain't seen nuthin' yet. Ca.1986 2 chaps almost came to blows over some points in DeVisee at one of the LSA seminars. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
