Re: Tabs, Staff and Bach superior to Weiss
In many ways it is remarkable that staff notation, which looks a bit like tadpoles dangling from telegraph wires, should have survived various attempts over the years to find an alternative. If anyone wants to be remembered as the greatest contributor to musical notation since Guido d'Arezzo, they might consider inventing a new system that catches on so much, that it supercedes staff notation. Anyone familiar with midi sequencers will be aware that several alternatives are being used daily, i.e. graphic bars representing notes, midi note lists, drum machine windows etc. Graphic representations are very interesting because it allows one to compose in the same manner as one would manipulate data in a computer painting or drawing program, that is: duplicate, paste, drag, shorten, expand or otherwise mangle with a mouse. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
Re: Vihuela
Dear Arto and friends, Roman is completely right. There is abundant Spanish iconography from the 15th century, less so from the 16th, showing lutes. I don`t have the information about the sources at hand right now, but if there is interest I could compile a list over the weekend. On the other hand, to address your question about the attitudes of Spanish society towards the lute in the 16th century, I can give you the answer in a nutshell (slightly different from received opinion): the guitar, as is commonly held, was a truly popular instrument; the vihuela was widely esteemed throughout the social scale and not only among the higher classes as is generally believed; but the instrument favoured by nobility and upper classes was, precisely, the lute. (The long and detailed answer is my Ph.D. dissertation, which draws evidence from a wide variety of sources, buy I shant bore you with those details). It still remains to find a satisfactory explanation for the fact that no music was printed specificaly for the lute, as Ariel and Stewart pointed out, but I believe we can now rule out the argument about dislike for arab culture. With best regards, Antonio --- Arto Wikla [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: Dear Roman and lutenists, I just wonder, what a 7-8th century Catalan mss. has to do with the attitudes of the society of 16th century Spain? Arto _ Do You Yahoo!? Información de Estados Unidos y América Latina, en Yahoo! Noticias. Visítanos en http://noticias.espanol.yahoo.com
Re: Vihuela
I ´m always asking myself why people call the composer in question LUIS MILAN. On the title page of EL MAESTRO his name is clearly written: LUYS MILAN. (Advantage of a facsimile edition !!) Albert TREE Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear Tony, The first printed book of vihuela music (as far as we know) was Luis Milan's _El Maestro_. There is often some confusion over the date, because 1535 and 1536 appear in it. The tablature was what some people call Spanish, with the top line representing the 1st course (highest in pitch). All the other vihuela books were printed the other way up in Italian lute tablature. Some vihuela pieces were pirated by Morlaye and Phalese, whose books appeared later than the vihuela books they dipped into. For example, the first piece in Phalese's _Hortus Musarum_ (Louvain, 1552) is a Fantasia which had appeared in Valderrabano's vihuela collection in 1547. The Italian equivalent of the vihuela was the viola da mano, or viola (for short). There is a book of music by Milano which was printed in 1536, which mentions the lute and the viola on the title page. You are right to think that the music for all these instruments can be played on any of them, because the tuning is the same. However, vihuela music often involves difficult chords high up the neck, which would be easier to play on a vihuela with strings (more or less) parallel, but awkward on the lute with fewer frets on the neck, and with the strings spaced wider apart than they are at the nut end. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Tony Chalkley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 6:42 PM Subject: Re: Vihuela Dear Stewart snip However, her evidence is drawn from a wide period of time, and doesn't really explain why the Spanish should have printed music for the vihuela and not the lute, in the 40 years from Luis Milan (1536) to Estaban Daza (1576). Does this mean that the books in that period contained pieces in Spanish tablature that were perfectly playable on the lute because of the tuning, but were entitled Pieces for Vihuela? (Sorry I don't do Spanish). If so, the difference seems a bit academic as presumably everyone would know that they could play it on either instrument. From what you say about the iconographic evidence that lutes were being played, it is difficult to imagine the lutenists going down to the local music shop and saying Oh damn, they're still only churning out vihuela music. Does what you say mean that till 1535 (after 1576 is perhaps less important) they _were_ producing lute music. Going back to your earlier reply to Jon, how do we recognize a vihuela piece in a (later, non Spanish) lute collection? Is it because the earliest known version was published in that period in Spain? Yours, Tony --
bye for now
I'll u n s u b s c r i b e for a while, perhap it'll blow over. Wading through all these unpleasantries in my inbox lately I wish people would stick to playing lute. I will. Hope to see you again in clearer air. David * LGS-Europe c/o David van Ooijen Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Http://www.lgs-japan.org Http://home.planet.nl/~d.v.ooijen/ *
Names of composers (Was: Vihuela)
Dear Albert and all, On Sat, 13 Dec 2003, albertreyerman wrote: I ´m always asking myself why people call the composer in question LUIS MILAN. On the title page of EL MAESTRO his name is clearly written: LUYS MILAN. (Advantage of a facsimile edition !!) Yes, these versions of names are interesting. For ex. Monteverdi's name was written Monteverde, Kapsbergers name Kapsperger. I have sometimes written Kapsperger as he himself saw his name written on his books. Normally someone complaints of my error... Arto
get it up
[1][c1.jpg] [2]Delete me expressions Agencies Statement These health, presented Lawrence) are often The White selection Official Green annual is years These consecutively Glidewell). definition. Office they This prefix Inquiry expressions Reviews. name published References 1. http://www.10cialagenius.biz/default51.htm 2. http://www.10cialagenius.biz/nomore.html
Tab/staff notation
Ed, your remark, 'I often have to stop and hear what chord I'm playing and what it's function is and check the tab and check what the notes are', was exactly what made me ask my original question about staff versus tablature. It's reassuring to learn that my initial reaction was not entirely wide of the mark. Cheers Tom
Re: Vihuela
It has been suggested that the Spanish preferred the vihuela because of the lute's association with the Moors. Gilbert Chase in his book, _The Music of Spain_ (New York, 1941), page 53, suggested that the Spanish might have resented the lute because of its association with the Moors. Presumptuousness is Musicology's sister. We know this all too well RT
Re: Vihuela
From long necked pandoura type in 7-8th centuries' Catalan mss, to Zurbaran. see http://polyhymnion.org/torban/torban2.html for the former. BTW Zurbaran shows a lute with inordinately long neck. Should be on .. The vihuela is a guitar-shaped instrument tuned like the renaissance lute. It was played in Spain in the 16th century in preference to the lute (although by no means exclusively so). It has been suggested that the Spanish preferred the vihuela because of the lute's association with the Moors. This suggestion can be happily eliminated from future descriptions as there is iconography testifying to the contrary. RT I just wonder, what a 7-8th century Catalan mss. has to do with the attitudes of the society of 16th century Spain? Arto FYI: in the 7-8th arabs were a real threat. in the 16th they were a faded memory. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
RE: Tabs, Staff and the rest of it. (for Stewart McCoy)
At 02:40 PM 12/10/2003 +0100, Spring, aus dem, Rainer RSpringausdemee.toshiba.de wrote: How would you write 3 versus 5 in tablature? I couldn't resist :) MOpheeExcellent point, which tells why there is no liklihood of modern composers using tablature. RadSOf course, it is almost impossible to play 3 versus 5 on a lute or guitar. MOPheeIt's definitely impossible to play on the flute AJN Sure you can. Haven't you ever heard the solo flute sonatas by CPEBach. One flute plays two contrapuntal lines. As for guitar, it is not easy, but definitely possible. There are many pieces of contemporary music where such polyrhythms are taken for granted. The tablature sign for quintuplets is straight flag(s) angling off to the LEFT. /| /| | or /| | The tablature sign for triplets is usually a rounded flag(s) |) |
Re: binary and ternary GIGUES
Dear Jerzy and Thomas, I think we can go a bit beyond what Walther has to say, but Walther is surely an excellent place to look for information on German baroque music. I believe what Jerzy Zak is asking about is the French and Italian kinds of gigues. The Italian one (giga) is usualy in compound quadruple meter, that is, 12/8 (or 12/4), and is in a fast rolling rhythm. The most typical examples are in last movements in Corelli sonatas. The French gigue is a bit slower, usually in duple meter, often compound duple meter (=6/8), with an emphasis on the lullabye rhythm: dotted 8th, 16th, 8th. Sometimes French gigues are notated in simple duple meter, that is, 2/4 (or 2/2). And this is the specific one Jerzy seems to be asking about. Conventional wisdom holds that this 2/4 is a simplified way of writing 6/8 (or 6/4), and should be played (in a gigue)as if it were in 6/8 (or 6/4), with the dotted 8th as a quarter note in 6/8 and the 16th as an 8th note. It's another instance of inequality in baroque music. (I think colieren [kolorieren] means ornamented, here. And the French variety is usually more elaborate than the Italian type.) ajn. ==Thomas Schall wrote=== Hi Jerzy, I've learned that there would be different kinds of gigues. Common is the typical rythmn (qaurter - 8th note, quarter - 8th etc. where the quarter is felt dotted). But apart from that there would be different forms like they also exist for the menuet. Walter wrote: A gigue (giga or gicque) is an instrumental piece which as a fast english dance contains of two reprises in 3/8, 6/8 or 12/8. It has usually on the first note of every bar a dot. The fugues written in kind of a giga could omit this feature, be more colorfull [colieren, not sure if that's right, T.S.] as being set in the bad mesure. They got their name from the italian word giga, which could mean a violin or fiddle. It could also be: the name comes from the tossing (schlenkern) of the legs which tightrope walkers and other are using. As the term giguen is not unknown in german meaning the unuasual walking of a human being. I think Walter expresses what needs to be known about the performance of a gigue. Best wishes Thomas Am Don, 2003-12-11 um 03.50 schrieb Jerzy ZAK: Dear thinkers and practitioners,In fact dealing with baroque music, and specially the 17th C., we are permanently close to the problem I stated in the subject of this letter. Some of us just accept the ''modern'' conclusion that gigues in binary meter on paper are obviously to be played in three, some are permanently struggling with a feeling it's not so obvious and often being brave enough are breaking the ''old-new'' rule. Recent discussions on the subject in the keyboard spheres are very informative (sources, sources, sources...) but, alas, still inconclusive. To that debate one might add a small observation that there is even more differentiation among the very ternary gigues: we have them in 3/8, in 3/4 (both could be with 'crossed 3'), 6/4 - I couldn't find more in just one book of Reusner (1676).Small number of lute binary gigues are imitative, so you can not say - they can only remain binary..., most often they are like the Allemandes.Do you know of any strict written rules (must have been some recent discovery). or is it still so much a question of performance practice, like ..inegalitee, but I feel even more deeply hidden.Any suggestion would be most welcome, Jerzy Dieser Mail Account ist geschlossen. Bitte lautenist autenist.de verwenden This mail-account is closed. please use lautenist autenist.de Regards Thomas --
Re: Vihuela
I ´m always asking myself why people call the composer in question LUIS MILAN. On the title page of EL MAESTRO his name is clearly written: LUYS MILAN. (Advantage of a facsimile edition !!) Albert TREE We use the name in modern Spanish. In any case, there're many other versions of his name. In sound, Luys or Luis wouldn't make any difference. Best, Ariel.
Re: Vihuela
I ´m always asking myself why people call the composer in question LUIS MILAN. On the title page of EL MAESTRO his name is clearly written: LUYS MILAN. (Advantage of a facsimile edition !!) Albert TREE We use the name in modern Spanish. In any case, there're many other versions of his name. In sound, Luys or Luis wouldn't make any difference. Best, Ariel. BTW, is Lluis Mila' the same person, on an entirely different composer??? RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: Vihuela
BTW, is Lluis Mila' the same person, on an entirely different composer??? RT I guess the same one, as in Valenciá or Catalá you would spell it that way. a
Re: Vihuela
BTW, is Lluis Mila' the same person, on an entirely different composer??? RT I guess the same one, as in Valenciá or Catalá you would spell it that way. a I thought so. Thanks for the clarification. I wonder though WHY JSavall had to spell it that way on the CD of his Milan orchestrations... RT
Re: from rec.mus.classical
What was the book? One of the Bossinensis books with Cara, Tromboncino, et al? ed I have no idea. RT At 10:44 PM 12/12/03 -0500, Roman Turovsky wrote: Friday, a volume of music for lute and soprano printed in the early 16th century by Ottaviano Petrucci sold to a private bidder for $204,000 ? a record for a piece of printed music, the auctioneer said. Petrucci, described as the Gutenberg of printed music, was granted a monopoly on the music publishing industry in Venice in 1498. Before Friday, his work had not been up for bid since 1949. Petrucci was the first publisher of printed music and his editions are as rare as hen's teeth, said Stephen Roe, head of Sotheby's manuscripts department. The two-part volume, printed in 1509 and 1511, was once owned by Robert Bolling (1738-1775), a member of the House of Burgesses in the Virginia colony in the United States. Bolling's elder brother was married to Mary Jefferson, the sister of Thomas Jefferson. __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: Vihuela
BTW, is Lluis Mila' the same person, on an entirely different composer??? RT I guess the same one, as in Valenci?r Catal?ou would spell it that way. a I thought so. Thanks for the clarification. I wonder though WHY JSavall had to spell it that way on the CD of his Milan orchestrations... RT Probably because Jordi Savall is a catalonian. Are Hansen Is there any indication that Milan was of the same Catalan origin? RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: from rec.mus.classical
Dear Roman Edward, That must surely be a copy each of both the Bossinensis volumes bound together. HM Brown lists only one other copy of the 1511 volume so this seems to bring the known surviving copies up to two, unless anyone knows of any others that Brown missed. If there are unrecorded copies of books like this still languishing in private libraries there must be hope that a copy of Giovan Maria's book may yet be found! Best wishes, Denys - Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]; LUTE-LIST [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 3:50 AM Subject: Re: from rec.mus.classical What was the book? One of the Bossinensis books with Cara, Tromboncino, et al? ed At 10:44 PM 12/12/03 -0500, Roman Turovsky wrote: Friday, a volume of music for lute and soprano printed in the early 16th century by Ottaviano Petrucci sold to a private bidder for $204,000 a record for a piece of printed music, the auctioneer said. Petrucci, described as the Gutenberg of printed music, was granted a monopoly on the music publishing industry in Venice in 1498. Before Friday, his work had not been up for bid since 1949. Petrucci was the first publisher of printed music and his editions are as rare as hen's teeth, said Stephen Roe, head of Sotheby's manuscripts department. The two-part volume, printed in 1509 and 1511, was once owned by Robert Bolling (1738-1775), a member of the House of Burgesses in the Virginia colony in the United States. Bolling's elder brother was married to Mary Jefferson, the sister of Thomas Jefferson. __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: from rec.mus.classical
Yes, these are the two books (bound together) of frottole for voice (not necessarily soprano) and lute arranged by Franciscus Bossinensis and publ. by Petrucci in 1509 and 1511. $US204,000 is indeed very high, but there is only one other copy known of Libro II. In comparison a copy of Dowland's third book of ayres was offered by a U.S. music antiquarian for $15,000 and then he lowered the price ro #13,500. There are only seven or eight copies known to exist, out of 1250 originally printed. Literally tins of lute music has disappeared over the years. Both Bossinensis volumes are available in Minkoff facsimiles. Of the two, the Libro I has the best selection of pieces. He seems to have used left-overs for vol, II. Vol. I includes Che debo far by Tromboncino, O mia cieca e dure sorte (Cara), Se de fede (Cara), Non e tempo (Cara), In te domine speravi (!!!) (Josquin). Incidentally some of the ricercars are intended to be played between verses of the frottola. AJN =RT wrote== FROM: Roman Turovsky, INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] What was the book? One of the Bossinensis books with Cara, Tromboncino, et al?ed martin I have no idea. RT
Re: Vihuela
Dear Albert, You're quite right, of course, and his name appears on folio 3r, again as Luys Milan. However, I think you should have said, (Advantage of an original edition!!), because on the modern title page of my Minkoff facsimile edition they have gone and put Luis Milan. :-) I notice that H. M. Brown spells it Luis, with an acute accent on the i, in _Instrumental Music Printed Before 1600_, (Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1965). I have looked at my CD collection, and see one by Catherine King and Jacob Heringman. They spell it Luis Milan too. It seems we can't get away from Luis. As you know, spelling was not consistent in the 16th century: i/y, i/j, u/v are are often interchangeable. William Byrd's name appears as Byrd and Bird, not to mention Byrde and Birde, but Byrd is now taken as the modern convention. It's just as well you can't hear my voice, because I often make the mistake of pronouncing Luis like the French name Louis, i.e. not pronouncing the s. I think Luis should be pronounced Loo-eece, but I sometimes forget. Unless Milan's name appears elsewhere as Luis (ideally a signature in a manuscript), perhaps we should start spelling his name Luys, as you suggest. After all, Reierman and McCoi would look a bit odd, wouldn't they. :-) Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: albertreyerman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 12:18 PM Subject: Re: Vihuela I ´m always asking myself why people call the composer in question LUIS MILAN. On the title page of EL MAESTRO his name is clearly written: LUYS MILAN. (Advantage of a facsimile edition !!) Albert TREE Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear Tony, The first printed book of vihuela music (as far as we know) was Luis Milan's _El Maestro_.
Re: binary and ternary GIGUES
Arthur Ness (boston) [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: (I think colieren [kolorieren] means ornamented, here. colieren in German means to take special care of, cherish (hegen, pflegen). Nothing to do with colour (but with cult). -- Regards, Mathias Mathias Roesel, Grosze Annenstrasze 5, 28199 Bremen, Deutschland/ Germany, T/F +49 - 421 - 165 49 97, Fax +49 1805 060 334 480 67, E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Vihuela
something similar happens with Estevan/Esteban Daza/Daça Both are ok, as well as Luys and Luis. There no one more appropriated than the other one. Ariel.
Re: binary and ternary GIGUES
Arthur Ness (boston) [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: (I think colieren [kolorieren] means ornamented, here. colieren in German means to take special care of, cherish (hegen, pflegen). Nothing to do with colour (but with cult). spelled with K, kolieren means to strain a liquid through a thin towel (from Latin colare). But that word is old fashioned or obsolete. -- Regards, Mathias Mathias Roesel, Grosze Annenstrasze 5, 28199 Bremen, Deutschland/ Germany, T/F +49 - 421 - 165 49 97, Fax +49 1805 060 334 480 67, E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: binary and ternary GIGUES
I would think so. The fuges in form of a gigue as being in bad measure but refined in compostion. Thomas Am Sam, 2003-12-13 um 17.25 schrieb Roman Turovsky: Arthur Ness (boston) [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: (I think colieren [kolorieren] means ornamented, here. colieren in German means to take special care of, cherish (hegen, pflegen). Nothing to do with colour (but with cult). spelled with K, kolieren means to strain a liquid through a thin towel (from Latin colare). But that word is old fashioned or obsolete. Could that imply REFINED? RT -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss --
Re: from rec.mus.classical
That would be a glorious discovery! ed At 02:59 PM 12/13/03 +, Denys Stephens wrote: If there are unrecorded copies of books like this still languishing in private libraries there must be hope that a copy of Giovan Maria's book may yet be found! Best wishes, Denys
Re: Vihuela
I have seen reference to Narbaez, as well! ed At 04:57 PM 12/13/03 +0100, arielabramovich wrote: something similar happens with Estevan/Esteban Daza/Daça Both are ok, as well as Luys and Luis. There no one more appropriated than the other one. Ariel.
Re: Vihuela
Not to mention BIGUELA. RT I have seen reference to Narbaez, as well! ed At 04:57 PM 12/13/03 +0100, arielabramovich wrote: something similar happens with Estevan/Esteban Daza/Da?Both are ok, as well as Luys and Luis. There no one more appropriated than the other one. Ariel.
Re: Vihuela
May be both are OK in modern use. But as long as the only source shows clearly LUYS we should use this, I think. Albert arielabramovich wrote: something similar happens with Estevan/Esteban Daza/Daça Both are ok, as well as Luys and Luis. There no one more appropriated than the other one. Ariel.
Re: Names of composers (Was: Vihuela)
Editors, library cataloguers and others who have to deal with older writings, recognize two kinds of titles or spellings of name. A diplomatic title or name would be the spelling given in the old original. (pauan, luys, Kapsperger) The standard spelling would be an attempt to use a uniform modern spelling. (pavan, Luis, Kapsberger) This is important when one deals with dictionaries, and library catalogues. Unless there is uniformity, the would be a great deal of confusion. In the U.S. the Library of Congress maintains a Name Authority file which gives one standard spelling of a name or term, and all others would just have a see reference: Most U.S. libraries use the Name Aithority file for their own catalogues. Mylan, Luis. see Milán, Luís. Fantazia. see Fantasia. Usually to find the standard spelling, use the spelling given in a recent dictionary. Or the spelling given in a library catalogue. In a program, I see no reason not to use the diplomatic spellings for pieces (as Kenneth does), but I would think that all titles should be diplomatic, not just a few. I have Kenneth's program ere, and guess what? He did it properly. All of the pieces are cited with their diplomatic titles. His program ended (except for the encores) with Tarletones riserrectione. By the way, sometimes it is Luís de Milán. I do not know where the de came from. Is don in Spain an aristocrat? I rather suspect the de came from Andres Segovia. He was always hyping his music. Segovia also added a de to Mudarra, Alonso de Mudarra.g Arthur de Ness. Kenneth Béwrote In a message dated 12/13/03 7:39:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, wiklas.Helsinki.FI writes: Yes, these versions of names are interesting. For ex. Monteverdi's name was written Monteverde, Kapsbergers name Kapsperger.I have sometimes written Kapsperger as he himself saw his name written on his books. Normally someone complaints of my error... In my recent concert at Yale from the Osborn Bray lutebook in that library collection I peformed the two fantasias in it by Francesco di Milano and reproduced the original spelling from the manuscript in the printed program, spelled differently each time: A fancye of ffrancys myllayne A fantazia frauncis de myllayne - Kenneth --
Re: binary and ternary GIGUES
Dear Arthur, couliren is the term in Walter and the other Schlechter Takt (I think Walter means equal 2/4 or 4/4). Here the german text: Giga (ital.), Gigue (gall.) oder Gicque, ist eine Instrumental-Piece, welche als eine behender Englischer Tantz aus zwo in 3/8, 6/8 oder 12/8 Tact gesetzten Reprisen bestehet, und bey der ersten Note jedes Tact-Viertels gemeiniglich einen Punct hat. Die auf Giqen-Art gesetzten Fugen aber können dieses Umstandes entbehren, dabei etwas mehr couliren, wie auch im schlechten Tacte gesetzt werden. Man hält davor: sie habe ihren Nahmen vom Italiänischen Wort Giga, welches eine Geige oder Fiedel heisset. [... Belege in der Literatur ...] es kann wohl auch seyn: daß dieser Tantz vom Schlenckern der Beine, dessen sich sowohl die Seil-Täntzer, als andere bedienen, und giguer (gall.) genennet wird, die Benennung bekommen hat. Wie denn auch im Teutschen das Wort giguen nicht unbekannt ist, sondern vom ungewöhnlichen Gehen eines Menschen gebraucht wird. Best wishes Thomas Am Sam, 2003-12-13 um 19.09 schrieb Arthur Ness (boston): Dear Mathias, Yes, I know what colieren means. I think it is a misspelling in Walther (or in Thomas). Colorieren (modern: kolorieren) is used to mean to ornament. And Thomas translated it as color, so maybe he misspelled the German word. How would you translate it? By the way, I also don't understand what is meant by bad measure (iin Thomas's transl.). Arthur. == Arthur Ness (boston) 71162.751ompuserve.com schrieb: (I think colieren [kolorieren] means ornamented, here. colieren in German means to take special care of, cherish (hegen, pflegen). Nothing to do with colour (but with cult). -- Regards, Mathias Mathias Roesel, Grosze Annenstrasze 5, 28199 Bremen, Deutschland/ Germany, T/F +49 - 421 - 165 49 97, Fax +49 1805 060 334 480 67, E-Mail: Mathias.Roesel-online.de, mroeselni-bremen.de -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss --
Re: binary and ternary GIGUES
If the word is kolieren (or colieren), then _refined_ makes sense. As you suggest, it's related to English colander. But it is nice to see Walther's dictionary quoted. It is sometimes very useful to see how persons of the time defined a word. Walther, if memory serves, defines cantabil as polyphonic, that is the type of music that a choir sings. In the preface to the Inventions, Bach states that he wrote them to train students to play in the _cantabil_ style. It is often mistranslated as singing style, when as Walther says, Bach probably meant to train players in playing polyphony. I recall going to ar ecital of the complete 2- and 3-voice Inventions. And over the entire evening not a single staccato note was to be heard.g Surely the pianist's musical instincts should have told him that something was very wrong with that interpretation.sigh ajn RT wrote= Arthur Ness (boston) 71162.751ompuserve.com schrieb: (I think colieren [kolorieren] means ornamented, here.colieren in German means to take special care of, cherish (hegen, pflegen). Nothing to do with colour (but with cult). RTspelled with K, kolieren means to strain a liquid through a thin towel (from Latin colare). But that word is old fashioned or obsolete. Could that imply REFINED? RT
Re: binary and ternary GIGUES
Actually I think it's very important to use the sources of the time. And Walther is, as it seems well informed and gives good explanations. Cantabile (ital.) cantable (gall.) heisset: wenn eine Composition, sie sey vocaliter oder instrumentaliter gesetzt, in allen Stimmen und Partien sich wohl singen lässet, oder seine Melodie in solchen führet. Cantabile means: if a composition be it for voices or musical instruments is well singable in all voices or parts or leads the melody in this (a singable) way. So this time you seem to be wrong - Walther's defintion comes closer to what common sense would suggest. Interesting would be in that context *how* a singable melody should be performed. Best Thomas Am Sam, 2003-12-13 um 19.21 schrieb Arthur Ness (boston): If the word is kolieren (or colieren), then _refined_ makes sense. As you suggest, it's related to English colander. But it is nice to see Walther's dictionary quoted. It is sometimes very useful to see how persons of the time defined a word. Walther, if memory serves, defines cantabil as polyphonic, that is the type of music that a choir sings. In the preface to the Inventions, Bach states that he wrote them to train students to play in the _cantabil_ style. It is often mistranslated as singing style, when as Walther says, Bach probably meant to train players in playing polyphony. I recall going to ar ecital of the complete 2- and 3-voice Inventions. And over the entire evening not a single staccato note was to be heard.g Surely the pianist's musical instincts should have told him that something was very wrong with that interpretation.sigh ajn RT wrote= Arthur Ness (boston) 71162.751ompuserve.com schrieb: (I think colieren [kolorieren] means ornamented, here.colieren in German means to take special care of, cherish (hegen, pflegen). Nothing to do with colour (but with cult). RTspelled with K, kolieren means to strain a liquid through a thin towel (from Latin colare). But that word is old fashioned or obsolete. Could that imply REFINED? RT -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss --
Re: binary and ternary GIGUES
I think it's not so important if I translated couliren right or wrong - regarding the question of gigues it is important that Walther characterizes a gigue as - fast - dotted rythmn - can occur in multiple measurements (bad or equal measurment probaply mainly in form of a fuga) Thomas Am Sam, 2003-12-13 um 19.21 schrieb Arthur Ness (boston): If the word is kolieren (or colieren), then _refined_ makes sense. As you suggest, it's related to English colander. But it is nice to see Walther's dictionary quoted. It is sometimes very useful to see how persons of the time defined a word. Walther, if memory serves, defines cantabil as polyphonic, that is the type of music that a choir sings. In the preface to the Inventions, Bach states that he wrote them to train students to play in the _cantabil_ style. It is often mistranslated as singing style, when as Walther says, Bach probably meant to train players in playing polyphony. I recall going to ar ecital of the complete 2- and 3-voice Inventions. And over the entire evening not a single staccato note was to be heard.g Surely the pianist's musical instincts should have told him that something was very wrong with that interpretation.sigh ajn RT wrote= Arthur Ness (boston) 71162.751ompuserve.com schrieb: (I think colieren [kolorieren] means ornamented, here.colieren in German means to take special care of, cherish (hegen, pflegen). Nothing to do with colour (but with cult). RTspelled with K, kolieren means to strain a liquid through a thin towel (from Latin colare). But that word is old fashioned or obsolete. Could that imply REFINED? RT -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss --
Re: (serious/popular)
Dear Jurek (Jerzy), you are absolutely right saying 'there were always some kind of= distinctions in style and organisation There were real stars among both groups, whose names became known to the history, and thousands of others forgotten.' If I my memory does not fails, Weiss received the highest salar= y at the Dresden court. It was definitely the case with Bakfark while he served Emperor Max= imilan. He was the best paid court musician of the Emperor. There is also much historical data, which prove, the best music= ians wanted sometimes enormous high payments. During the mid 1570s the Bavarian Duke tried to get Lorenzino into his services. But Lorenzino, a young musician = at that time, wanted such a high salary, which, according to the Duke, never have = been paid in his land any good musician, even not the best. And this is written= by a monarch, whose Kapellmester happened to be Orlando di Lasso, not a cheap o= ne at all. If we have a look on 16th century lute tablatures, it is also o= bvious, that some musicians published only 'serious/highbrow' music. Look at for example the= editions of Francesco da Milano or Bakfark: Only 'serious/highbrow' music = like fantasies and intabulations. Not a single 'popular' piece like songs, or d= ance music and the like. Thus without saying it, they made very much a distinction be= tween serious and popular. Best regards, Peter - Peter Király Glockenstr. 34 D-67655 Kaiserslautern T/Fax. (00)49 631 69866 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: (serious/popular)
Hi, hasn't some intavolations of Francesco being found? I think I bought a book containg song settings attributed to Francesco (although owning my copy for a while I haven't looked at it carefully) - Arthur will know ... Several of Francescos recercare and fantasia definitly are based on vocal models ... Best wishes Thomas Am Fre, 2003-12-12 um 12.31 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Dear Jurek (Jerzy), you are absolutely right saying 'there were always some kind of= distinctions in style and organisation There were real stars among both groups, whose names became known to the history, and thousands of others forgotten.' If I my memory does not fails, Weiss received the highest salar= y at the Dresden court. It was definitely the case with Bakfark while he served Emperor Max= imilan. He was the best paid court musician of the Emperor. There is also much historical data, which prove, the best music= ians wanted sometimes enormous high payments. During the mid 1570s the Bavarian Duke tried to get Lorenzino into his services. But Lorenzino, a young musician = at that time, wanted such a high salary, which, according to the Duke, never have = been paid in his land any good musician, even not the best. And this is written= by a monarch, whose Kapellmester happened to be Orlando di Lasso, not a cheap o= ne at all. If we have a look on 16th century lute tablatures, it is also o= bvious, that some musicians published only 'serious/highbrow' music. Look at for example the= editions of Francesco da Milano or Bakfark: Only 'serious/highbrow' music = like fantasies and intabulations. Not a single 'popular' piece like songs, or d= ance music and the like. Thus without saying it, they made very much a distinction be= tween serious and popular. Best regards, Peter - Peter Király Glockenstr. 34 D-67655 Kaiserslautern T/Fax. (00)49 631 69866 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss --
Re: (serious/popular)
Thanks for joinin, Peter, On Friday, Dec 12, 2003, at 12:31 Europe/Warsaw, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Jurek (Jerzy), ... There were real stars among both groups, whose names became known to the history, and thousands of others forgotten.' .. Look at for example the editions of Francesco da Milano or Bakfark: Only 'serious/highbrow' music like fantasies and intabulations. Not a single 'popular' piece like songs, or dance music and the like. Thus without saying it, they made very much a distinction between serious and popular. Best regards, Peter So, in a way, they were both ''serious and popular''. But I, since long, cannot accept somehow they were really that serious and profund, without creating/playing a single dance movement. Simply, I do not trust, life is not that sad all the time... Jurek (for Jerzy), which I really prefare - thaks Peter!
Re: (serious/popular)
Dear Jurek and All: Just because Francesco didn't include any dances in his publications doesn't mean he never played them. A musician of his caliber may not have needed an intabulation to play a dance. Yours, Jim Jerzy ZAK [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wp.pl cc: Subject: Re: (serious/popular) 12/13/2003 06:16 PM Thanks for joinin, Peter, On Friday, Dec 12, 2003, at 12:31 Europe/Warsaw, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Jurek (Jerzy), ... There were real stars among both groups, whose names became known to the history, and thousands of others forgotten.' . Look at for example the editions of Francesco da Milano or Bakfark: Only 'serious/highbrow' music like fantasies and intabulations. Not a single 'popular' piece like songs, or dance music and the like. Thus without saying it, they made very much a distinction between serious and popular. Best regards, Peter So, in a way, they were both ''serious and popular''. But I, since long, cannot accept somehow they were really that serious and profund, without creating/playing a single dance movement. Simply, I do not trust, life is not that sad all the time... Jurek (for Jerzy), which I really prefare - thaks Peter!
Re: Vihuela and Biguela
Dear Edward, As I understand it, the discrepancy between Ariel's Estevan and Esteban, or Roman's biguela and vihuela, arise because of the bi-labial fricative. The letters V and F are called labio-dental fricatives, because their sound is made by rubbing a lip against teeth so that they vibrate together. V is voiced (with a sound from the vocal chords), and F is unvoiced (like whispering). The letters B and P are a bi-labial plosives, because they involve both lips, and they make a sound like a mini-explosion. B is voiced, and P is unvoiced. There is a sound in Spanish, which we don't have in English, which is somewhere between V and B: the bi-labial fricative. Both lips are involved like with B, but they don't explode. Instead they vibrate together, as lip and teeth do with the letter V. There isn't a separate letter for this sound, so the Spanish used the nearest letter they could find, which was either B or V, hence Estevan and Esteban, and biguela and vihuela. All this is my own hypothesis. I do not speak Spanish, so I would be very grateful if Ariel or Antonio, or any of the other Spanish speakers on the Lute Net, could confirm whether or not I am right, at least as far as 16th-century Spanish is concerned. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED]; arielabramovich [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 10:41 PM Subject: Re: Vihuela Of course. Must be a big vihuela, right? ed At 12:50 PM 12/13/03 -0500, Roman Turovsky wrote: Not to mention BIGUELA. RT I have seen reference to Narbaez, as well! ed At 04:57 PM 12/13/03 +0100, arielabramovich wrote: something similar happens with Estevan/Esteban Daza/Da?Both are ok, as well as Luys and Luis. There no one more appropriated than the other one. Ariel.
Re: Vihuela and Biguela
Dear Stewart, Your comments are very insightful! My comment about biguela being a big vihuela is of course, tongue in cheek humor, not implied in any way to be serious. Yes, I understand there are many different spellings for the same thing. Thanks. ed At 12:56 AM 12/14/03 +, Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear Edward, As I understand it, the discrepancy between Ariel's Estevan and Esteban, or Roman's biguela and vihuela, arise because of the bi-labial fricative. The letters V and F are called labio-dental fricatives, because their sound is made by rubbing a lip against teeth so that they vibrate together. V is voiced (with a sound from the vocal chords), and F is unvoiced (like whispering). The letters B and P are a bi-labial plosives, because they involve both lips, and they make a sound like a mini-explosion. B is voiced, and P is unvoiced. There is a sound in Spanish, which we don't have in English, which is somewhere between V and B: the bi-labial fricative. Both lips are involved like with B, but they don't explode. Instead they vibrate together, as lip and teeth do with the letter V. There isn't a separate letter for this sound, so the Spanish used the nearest letter they could find, which was either B or V, hence Estevan and Esteban, and biguela and vihuela. All this is my own hypothesis. I do not speak Spanish, so I would be very grateful if Ariel or Antonio, or any of the other Spanish speakers on the Lute Net, could confirm whether or not I am right, at least as far as 16th-century Spanish is concerned. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED]; arielabramovich [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 10:41 PM Subject: Re: Vihuela Of course. Must be a big vihuela, right? ed At 12:50 PM 12/13/03 -0500, Roman Turovsky wrote: Not to mention BIGUELA. RT I have seen reference to Narbaez, as well! ed At 04:57 PM 12/13/03 +0100, arielabramovich wrote: something similar happens with Estevan/Esteban Daza/Da?Both are ok, as well as Luys and Luis. There no one more appropriated than the other one. Ariel.
Re: Names (olim Vihuela)
Leonard Williams wrote: Wales/Gales, Just for the record, the proper name is Cymru. Wales is a Saxon word meaning foreign. -- Rough-edged songs from a dark place in the soul: http://DoctorOakroot.com
Re: Names (olim Vihuela)
Even more to the point! Thanks! Leonard - Original Message - From: Doctor Oakroot [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LuteNet [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 9:29 PM Subject: Re: Names (olim Vihuela) Leonard Williams wrote: Wales/Gales, Just for the record, the proper name is Cymru. Wales is a Saxon word meaning foreign. -- Rough-edged songs from a dark place in the soul: http://DoctorOakroot.com
Reflections on our e-community
A couple of evenings ago my son happened to be looking over my shoulder as I read through some of my LuteNet mail. He was rather intrigued by some of the topics, queries and responses. As I began to explain what some threads were about, and their histories, I began to realize that, as superficial as e-mail may appear, much more emerges from our various styles. I tend to graft particular personalities onto various senders based on what and how they write. I (we) form alliances without (in many cases) even meeting the people we read. I may like what you write, but who knows what would happen in a real meeting! I guess we need to be mindful of how we present ourselves in this unusual space. Though our membership ranges from around the globe, we have what amounts to a small cyber-space cafe. There are the regulars, presenting a variety of perspectives; newcomers to the lute, seeking advice or cameraderie. There are comedians, sages, wall-flowers, cranks. This place caters to folks of all persuasions and professions: players, builders, doctors, lawyers, scientists, mystics. And of course our patient barista, Wayne, who lets us carry on until it looks like some of the clientele are ready to run. We've all stopped in to check the latest or most authentic information on the object of our passion. We savor the free flow of information that, until this place opened a short time ago, was a rare elixir. And everyone has something to contribute, even beginners on the lute who ask those questions that make us all think a little more clearly about what we're doing. This is a really special place. Even though I've at times had my fears about breaking the delete key (really, my spam is a million times worse!), I'll always stop in here for my info fix. Thanks everyone for making this cyber-space a community! And Wayne, thanks for staying open to us all 24/7! Best wishes to you all in the holiday season. Remember: Things always get brighter after the soltice. May you all find new light on your paths! Sincerely, Leonard Williams [] (_) ~
Dolling up an extended lute
Hi Chaps, a completely superficial question follows. I'm doing a series of Christmas concerts in Singapore next week, and was hoping for some ideas to doll up my archlute a little. The concerts are all light baroque stuff, so I thought it might be nice to add a bit of decoration to the instrument. Short of pasting a gold sunburst around the triple rose, like what they did in the Andrew Parrott video of the 1589 Florentine Intermedii, what can I do? Does anyone have any ideas? I was thinking a ribbon and bow around the upper pegbox... Ideas welcome, as are good reasons against it =) Yours, Edward Edward Chrysogonus Yong + When I get a little money,IC|XC I buy books; +--+--+ If I have any left over, NI|KA I buy food and clothes. - Erasmus +
