[LUTE] Re: Tombeau de Mezangeau
On Feb 22, 2009, at 4:40 PM, Bernd Haegemann wrote: I think this piece is in Saizenay... As it seems for the CNRS concordance list it is in not in Saiz. but in Livre de Tablature... which version they print. So if you have a special doubt, just ask.. My doubts are not special. :-) I got a nice facsimile (#12) from Roman's tombeau site which is from Perrine. Now that I look at it, I see it is quite a different piece. Unfortunately, that is the only one with the name Mezangeau there. Livre de Tablature would be the Denis Gaultier source, which I have a copy of. I'm just trying to figure out what this print out I have is based on. It says Perrine p. 3-4. I'd just like to check the original. Lovely piece for a beginner like me, but I have some questions. In both versions the first measure is just 2 beats and the last measure of the first part is 2 beats. Okay. However, in the print out there is a first and 2nd ending measure which differs in length. I wonder what the Perrine had there. In the Gaultier there are no first and second endings but a 2 beat last bar (of the first section) and the second section is all 4. Isn't this somewhat strange to have a different measure structure in a 2 part piece? I never saw a case like that before. Of course there are some rhythmic flags missing in the first bar of the second section. Does anyone have a scan of the facsimile of Perrine 1680 p.3-4 handy that they could send me? I have a computerized print out version of Perrine that I think came from Richard Civol's site. I think there might be a mistake or two and a line is missing from one system so I would like to see the original. And are there any other versions of Tombeau de Mezangeau besides the one in Livre du luth. publ. by Denis Gaultier? TIA Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
The 'white spot' will be a small ivory button round which the holding gut or tape is looped. Incidentally, there's some doubt that the gut (or tape) fastened round a coat button: a contemporary engraving shows thin tapes (or ribbons) coming from the coat buttons (or cld be from inside the coat ie maybe round the player's back) and leading to the ivory button. A picture is in the archives MH --- On Sat, 21/2/09, JarosAAaw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: From: JarosAAaw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 21 February, 2009, 10:00 PM BTW, am I right that the gut is fixed with some glue near the neck (white spot)? JL - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 10:14 PM Subject: [LUTE] Laurent de La Hyre Dear Jaroslav, You hook the gut on to one of the buttons of your coat to stabilise the lute while you are holding it. I seem to remember Mersenne mentioning it. See also Robert Spencer's article on the theorbo in Early Music. It is likely that Mouton is holding his lute this way in the famous picture of him. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: Jaros^3aw Lipski [mailto:jaroslawlip...@wp.pl] Sent: 21 February 2009 18:06 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre Oh, I've forgot 2 other interesting details. The frets are double (except last 2), made of a thin gut with knots on the treble side. Both theorbo and the lute on the table has a folded double piece of gut going in the middle of the back (longside). It starts from the end pin (which is visible on the theorbo) and ends on the white spot (glue?) close to the place where the body meets the neck. There is a loop attached to the long gut - maybe some sort of the system for keeping the instrument while playing. I don't think it served for hanging the instrument on the wall. They wouldn't waist such a long piece of gut for this purpose. I hang it with a very short piece of used string attached to the peg box. Best Jaroslaw -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- --
[LUTE] tape/gut loop buttons in de la Hye painting
--0-345006452-1235291295=:77846 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Further to my last about this, here's the picture and one of the email communications from the 07s. MH --- On Thu, 12/7/07, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Further to Fwd: Re: [LUTE] Lute straps To: David Van Edwards da...@vanedwards.co.uk Date: Thursday, 12 July, 2007, 8:53 AM Dear David, Here is the original (lower resolution) pic which seems strangely rather clearer. I think you may be right that what I took for the lower ribbon could well be the sleeve line. I'm afraid I accepted Kenneth's observations without looking too closely. Nevertheless, isn't it odd that no one else noticed a year ago! - as said earlier , it just goes to show how much interest most players really have in what the Old Ones actually did.. Having said this, as far as I'm aware ALL extant lutes with the upper button also have an end button (do you know different) - of course some could, I suppose, be later additions but surely not all of them. Two button fixing (like with the back strap of a theorbo) certainly does provide much more security - nevertheless your observation certainly means that the case for using two buttons is not proved. I did, in fact, try just using the upper button fastening (as part of struggling to get two ribbons to work) - the problem was that to avoid the lute slipping down the leg (ie right thigh) the instrument had to be held with the belly almost vertically with the right forearm bracing it against the thigh (a la modern classical guitar position) which is not seen in most early iconography where a much more relaxed posture is displayed with mostly the belly turned somewhat upwards. If two body buttons were used, the crossed ribbon method seems to provide the necessary stability etc and looking like the pic in terms of even down to the topmost ribbon coming out of the jerkin as from the direction of the right arm (not left arm if the ribbon wasn't crossed). However, I may be in danger of not practising what I preach here and trying too hard to interpret the evidence in a particular way. Whatever, the problem remains of how to hold the lute without cradling the instrument in the lap (as modern guitar) with or without crossed legs. regards, Martyn Kenneth Bé kbe.l...@gmail.com wrote:.. Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 09:36:37 -0400 From: Kenneth Bé kbe.l...@gmail.com To: s...@wollaton55.freeserve.co.uk, katherine_l...@sbcglobal.net, man...@manololaguillo.com, hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [LUTE] Lute straps Hello Stewart, Katherine, Luca, and Martin: I'm writing to the four of you individually from my private email address because there is a remarkable print I want to share by Wenceslaus Hollar, the early 17th C. German who worked in London, showing a lute player from the side angle where you can clearly see the strap attached to the body of the lute and looping around the button (actually it is attached to TWO buttons) on his jacket. I have scanned and attached it here (I don't know how to post images on the web, otherwise I'd share it with all on the lutelist). A Young Man Playing a Lute Etching (P.1698a) 185 x 130mm private collection Illustrated inL Wenceslaus Hollar: A Bohemian Artist in England by Richard T. Godfrey Yale Univ Press 1994 -- Forwarded message -- From: Stewart McCoy s...@wollaton55.freeserve.co.uk To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 17:43:02 +0100 Subject: [LUTE] Lute straps Dear Craig and Katherine, An alternative to using a strap, which was used in the 17th Century, is to tie a gut string between two pegs on the body of the instrument. One peg is where you'd expect to see a peg, i.e. in the middle of the end clasp; the other peg is fixed through the middle rib just before the body joins the neck. The string is tied so that it lies flush with the middle rib, and you hook it over a button on your coat to stabilise the lute. It is thought that Mouton may be holding his lute this way in that famous picture of him. If you think the artist hasn't quite got it right, and the lute looks as if it is suspended in front of the player as if by magic, it is possible that it is being held in this way. There is an article by Robert Spencer in _Early Music_, with a picture of the back of a lute, showing the gut string tied between two pegs. I could look up the reference if you want. If you play the lute standing up, and without a strap or a piece of string between two pegs, you have to use your left hand to support the instrument. This can be satisfactory for short periods, but can cause irritation to the part of the hand holding the neck, unaccustomed to the friction involved. Barré chords are problematic, so you may have to tinker with the music a bit, e.g.
[LUTE] Theorbo sizes [was: Theorbo Nicki don't lose that number]
Howard,
Praetorius does indeed give a G theorbo tuning and depicts two
theorboes: one with a fingered string length of around 89cm ('Lang:
Romanische Theorba: Chitarron') and the other of 97cm ('Paduanische
Theorba'). But to suppose he would have expected a theorbo in A (even
if he knew them) to be proportionally smaller (at 79 or 87cm) begs the
question since, as soon as a double re-entrant tuning becomes
necessary, the principal size limitation (other than exceeding the
breaking stress of the next highest course - now the third) is physical
playability. And the existence of theorboes up to 99cm fingered string
length (eg a couple by Buechenberg) gives us a good indication of an
acceptable upper physical limit.
You say that Praetorius doesn't mention pitch (tho' many might disagree
with you) but then go on to relate your derived size of 79cm to modern
practice and thus draw insecure conclusions. It was precisely the
unecessary stringing of small theorboes (say, fingered string lengths
around 76cm) as double-re-entrant at modern pitch (or modern 'baroque'
pitch) that, you will recall, was the original issue in the present
exchange.
You ask about Praetorius's 'Paduanische Theorba' and the stringing of
its long basses (at 128cm) and imply his evidence is thereby somehow
discredited. In fact the obvious answer is that, unlike his Roman
theorbo, the Paduan version used contemporary lute bass string
technology (loaded, high twist, flexible, roped,). For example: a
64cm G lute with a low course at D relates exactly to the lowest bass
(,D) of the Paduan theorbo at 128cm.
To move on. The commonest historical nominal tuning of the single
re-entrant theorbo is in G (eg Banchieri, Wilson, Mace). Taking the
maximum (ie breaking) stress relationship of a 60cm gut g' at A440 and
using this for the highest course (d') of a G single re-entrant theorbo
gives a string length of 81cm (or 86cm at A415). As one is obliged to
put on a low second course, it then becomes possible to use a
significantly larger instrument (subject to the constraints described
above) to produce the required increased volume (especially for the all
important bass). Hence, no doubt, why so many extant theorboes have
string lengths ranging from the mid 80s to the high 90s.
MH
--- On Thu, 19/2/09, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote:
From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Theorbo Nicki don't lose that number
To: lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Thursday, 19 February, 2009, 6:53 PM
Apparently by way of associating a specific historic instrument with
a specific tuning, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Praetorius, Mace to name but two.
What surviving instrument does Mace describe? What specific
measurements associated with what specific tuning does Mace give us?
Praetorius' 1620 Theatrum Instrumentorum is an encyclopedic work that
shows generic theorbos, not any specific identifiable instrument, but
what the heck:
Praetorius' Lang Romanische Theorba: Chitarron is 14-course double re-
entrant in G, with a length of about 89cm (roughly 3.1 Brunswick Feet
multiplied by 28.536cm per BF) for its six fingerboard strings and an
extension about twice that. Scaled down for a theorbo in A it would
be about 79 cm. Would such an instrument be a toy?
Praetorius' Paduanische Theorba is a 16-course instrument, also in G,
about 96cm for the eight fingerboard strings, and 128cm on the
extension, which goes down to a contra D (i.e. a full octave lower
than the ninth course). I'd be interested to know how such low notes
at such a short length would work, and how they would balance the
long fingerboard strings.
The lowest fingerboard string on the Paduan theorbo would have been
an E, and thus considerably shorter in relation to its pitch than the
lowest G on the fingerboard of the Roman theorbo; to match the pitch/
length proportion of the Roman theorbo's G, the E would need to be
about 106cm. Put another way, a theorbo string tuned to A (the sixth
course of a theorbo in A) with the same relation of length to pitch
as a 96cm E string would be 75cm long. So even the Paduan theorbo
has its toyosity problems.
Has any such instrument survived? Did anyone else ever mention such
a thing? Or was it a short-lived variant? Or was Praetorius'
information faulty? And is anyone playing such an instrument now?
Praetorius does not mention an absolute pitch level.
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[LUTE] nylglut strings advice wanted
I'm about to try out some nylglut strings. I seem to remember someone saying that you should only get them partially in tension at first, then leave them for a while and then very slowly get them to pitch. Any advice? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: nylglut strings advice wanted
Stuart, you can find advice at Aquila FAQ; but I will copy the relevant texts. Anthony http://www.aquilacorde.com/faqi.htm FAQ Aquila 26) What is Nylgut and why is it white? In theory a gut string and a Nylgut one should have the same diameter. But since nylgut is quite 'stretchy' we advise using a slightly thicker diameter. Pull carefully but resolutely and repeatedly the string with your fingers while tuning it for the first time (see faq 31). Concerning the 'cutting effect' follow the suggestions given for gut strings at faq 20. (I suppose the diameter should be chosen as for Venice, which is also stretchy: Because of its nature a Venice string stretches noticeably more than a regular high twist string, which leads, under equal stress, to a somewhat thinner diameter. Hence the necessity to use a thicker starting diameter: under working stress it will settle to a diameter similar to that of a regular string's and will eventually lead to the same working tension. In practice the correct diameter of an equivalent Venice string is obtained by multiplying the plain high twist string diameter by 1.07. ) 31) What should I do when I put a new string on? Once checked that all points of contact are smooth and free from sharp edges, when tuning a string for the first time, pull it with your fingers until it stays in tune: moderately the trebles and wound strings but with a bit more energy the thicker ones. This applies to both gut and synthetic strings, especially to Nylgut: AH Le 22 févr. 09 à 11:27, Stuart Walsh a écrit : I'm about to try out some nylglut strings. I seem to remember someone saying that you should only get them partially in tension at first, then leave them for a while and then very slowly get them to pitch. Any advice? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: nylglut strings advice wanted
Hi, all, While I'm certainly not one of the string nerds, and I don't remember who gave that advice, I find that it's helpful, indeed necessitated, by the behavior of the strings, to follow that advice with any nylon strings. I frankly don't know how the new-strings-every-two-weeks classical guitarists put up with it. Personally, I just cultivate an appreciation of old-string tone. However, I wouldn't say very slowly, at least not by my standards. A couple of days, I'd say. I usually bring them to a tone or so low, let them sit overnight, then bring them to pitch. I also have to repeat the last step several times before they're stable. As I implied above, though, it doesn't happen very often. Good luck, Chris. Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2/22/2009 5:27 AM I'm about to try out some nylglut strings. I seem to remember someone saying that you should only get them partially in tension at first, then leave them for a while and then very slowly get them to pitch. Any advice? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
Dear Martyn, Yes, I agree it should be an ivory button. I thought of something else because the spot seems to be quite big (bigger than usualy buttons are) and it is placed further from the neck than normaly (my Haycock lute has a button about 2 mm from the neck). Also the loop seems to be too big to be fastened to a coat button. The other option is that some other strap or ribbon was to go around players back and than attached to the loop itself (not the strap button). Regards Jaroslaw - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 9:21 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre The 'white spot' will be a small ivory button round which the holding gut or tape is looped. Incidentally, there's some doubt that the gut (or tape) fastened round a coat button: a contemporary engraving shows thin tapes (or ribbons) coming from the coat buttons (or cld be from inside the coat ie maybe round the player's back) and leading to the ivory button. A picture is in the archives MH --- On Sat, 21/2/09, JarosAAaw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: From: JarosAAaw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 21 February, 2009, 10:00 PM BTW, am I right that the gut is fixed with some glue near the neck (white spot)? JL - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 10:14 PM Subject: [LUTE] Laurent de La Hyre Dear Jaroslav, You hook the gut on to one of the buttons of your coat to stabilise the lute while you are holding it. I seem to remember Mersenne mentioning it. See also Robert Spencer's article on the theorbo in Early Music. It is likely that Mouton is holding his lute this way in the famous picture of him. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: Jaros^3aw Lipski [mailto:jaroslawlip...@wp.pl] Sent: 21 February 2009 18:06 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre Oh, I've forgot 2 other interesting details. The frets are double (except last 2), made of a thin gut with knots on the treble side. Both theorbo and the lute on the table has a folded double piece of gut going in the middle of the back (longside). It starts from the end pin (which is visible on the theorbo) and ends on the white spot (glue?) close to the place where the body meets the neck. There is a loop attached to the long gut - maybe some sort of the system for keeping the instrument while playing. I don't think it served for hanging the instrument on the wall. They wouldn't waist such a long piece of gut for this purpose. I hang it with a very short piece of used string attached to the peg box. Best Jaroslaw -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- --
[LUTE] Re: nylglut strings advice wanted
Stuart-- I problem I've found with nylgut is that it seems to remain elastic throughout its life. That is, if you should lose significant tension due to something like peg slippage, you'll be starting all over again in getting the string up to a stable pitch. One thing I like about gut is that it is quick in attaining pitch and easy to regain stable pitch. Regards, Leonard Williams /[ ] / \ | * | \_=_/ On 2/22/09 8:56 AM, Christopher Stetson cstet...@email.smith.edu wrote: Hi, all, While I'm certainly not one of the string nerds, and I don't remember who gave that advice, I find that it's helpful, indeed necessitated, by the behavior of the strings, to follow that advice with any nylon strings. I frankly don't know how the new-strings-every-two-weeks classical guitarists put up with it. Personally, I just cultivate an appreciation of old-string tone. However, I wouldn't say very slowly, at least not by my standards. A couple of days, I'd say. I usually bring them to a tone or so low, let them sit overnight, then bring them to pitch. I also have to repeat the last step several times before they're stable. As I implied above, though, it doesn't happen very often. Good luck, Chris. Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2/22/2009 5:27 AM I'm about to try out some nylglut strings. I seem to remember someone saying that you should only get them partially in tension at first, then leave them for a while and then very slowly get them to pitch. Any advice? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo sneezes
On Feb 22, 2009, at 1:12 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: You say that Praetorius doesn't mention pitch (tho' many might disagree with you) but then go on to relate your derived size of 79cm to modern practice and thus draw insecure conclusions. My conclusions are not insecure, but rather downright silly, since they are based on the assumption you've stated repeatedly: that all historical theorbos were built with the longest practicable string length for maximum volume. If we retain that unsupported assumption, an 89cm string length is, by definition, the maximum for a double-re-entrant theorbo in G, and thus a theorbo in A has to be smaller. Drop the assumption and the whole toy theorbo debate vanishes in a puff of logic. It was precisely the unecessary stringing of small theorboes (say, fingered string lengths around 76cm) Why, Martin, I believe this is the first time you've actually given us a Toyosity Threshold Number. I'm very disappointed to find out my instrument doesn't qualify as a toy. I'll fix that right away with a hacksaw, of course, and notify Mattel. You ask about Praetorius's 'Paduanische Theorba' and the stringing of its long basses (at 128cm) and imply his evidence is thereby somehow discredited. What I imply is that if his Paduan Theorbo is otherwise unknown, it's a poor model of the historical theorbo, even if Praetorius did his drawing based on x-ray examination of a real instrument someone sent him from Padua. In fact the obvious answer is that, unlike his Roman theorbo, the Paduan version used contemporary lute bass string technology (loaded, high twist, flexible, roped,). For example: a 64cm G lute with a low course at D relates exactly to the lowest bass (,D) of the Paduan theorbo at 128cm. I thought a major point of theorbos was to have bigger, hunkier, louder, stronger basses than 64cm G lutes. But maybe I'm one of those people who's just hung up on big theorbos. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] restringing a double course with a single string
Dear All, what advice about string tension would you give,in general terms, to someone who wanted to replace a double course with a single string? A: for a course in unison - B: for a course in bass/octave tuning? thank you Charles To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Straight Answer Please
The current topic under discussion of toy theorbos has failed so far to answer the one question without which there is no basis for discussion at all, namely, what size does a theorbo have to be so that it can no longer be called a toy theorbo? I request a straight answer, please: no letters in the body of the answer except cm following some numbers. David R dlu...@verizon.net -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
Dear Anthony, I thought that lead is poisness, isn't it? Didn't they know about it? The other basses are neither brown nor red. Maybe it's a matter of light, but they really look like copper wounds. If really loading not dyeing was involved maybe they had some local recepies giving in the end this color? Regards Jaroslaw - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr To: Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl; lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; alexander voka...@verizon.net Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 10:06 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre Dear Jaroslaw Le 21 févr. 09 à 20:51, Jarosław Lipski a écrit : Dear Anthony, Nice to talk to you again. I agree, there are several possibilities and some of them very probable. Aesthetic/loaded? Maybe aesthetic, but why only one string? I don't exclued loading however personaly I wouldn't use a plain gut in between two loaded strings. This not a transition like a Venice string. Besides Venice is a good transition between treble and bass, but not in the middle of basses! That was what I was thinking, but Alexnder points out that it is the first string to go OFF the neck, it is almost twice as long as the six courses ON, so to produce an octave lower then the 4th string, it has to be about the same diameter as the 4th. I agree that the plain gut would perhaps be brighter than the adjacent loaded strings, but a move from the off the neck quality would perhaps bring a tonal break anyway. Still I do tend to agree with you. Demifile? I agree - too early. Well, at least as far as our knoledge is correct. It would also bring a tonal break, as my Gimped string in between the Venice and the loaded basses showed me. Special loaded? We know nothing about white loading. However, Mimmo has told me of one possibility, lead carbonate is a white and very dense insoluble powder, which was largely employed in the past under the name Biacca, or Basic lead carbonate. It was the only white insoluble pigment of the past. The density is arround 7,0. http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonato_di_piombo Another problem for the pure gut hypothesis, according to Mimmo, is that sulfur treatment, which make strings whiter, seems not to have been in use on gut strings, before mid 17th c. Such thickness of gut string, Mimmo tells me should be brownish. So perhaps lead carbonate is the answer. Place maker? Possible, however people that like this sort of things usualy make more than one - like the dots on the neck's side. Plain thicker gut? Could be, although this wouldn't be my choice as mentioned before. Artistic implication? This one I rather exclude. The allegory is made by juxtaposing some objects, however it doesn't mean they wouldn't be painted faithfully. For example La Hyre juxtaposed the singing bird sitting on the back of the chair symbolising the free music and the theorbo player as a (probably a rossignol) symbol of the learned music. However both are painted faithfuly I believe. In general La Hyre was very acurate in portrait-painting so it would be rather strange if he made an exception and didn't pay any attention to the details this time. Yes, when I looked in bigger magnification, I was also struck by the details, as also pointed out by Dana. So my guess is, it could be some kind of a temporary substitute. That or possibly lead carbonate because as Mimmo seems to think, plain gut would possibly not have been white. Thank you, Jaroslaw, for this very interesting example. Regards Anthony Regards Jaroslaw - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr To: Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl; lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 4:49 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre It's good to read you again, Jarosław, and with such an interesting example. I would not presume to give any answers, just add a question or two. It would be good to have Mimmo's specialist opinion, on this. Aesthetic/loaded? I note that MP does give two examples contrasting aesthetic use of string colour, with something more systematic that he thinks could be consistent with loading: aesthetic (Ludovico Lana 1597-1646): http://www.aquilacorde.com/valeriani1.JPG red basses: they suggest a loading treatment http://www.aquilacorde.com/b.jpg but your example is sort of in between, interpretable either way? unless there is a technical reason (string length) which would preclude loading? Demi-filé? However, if the date is 1649, it seems unlikely that the white string could have been silver wound demi-filé, because of the early date. Mimmo's example is from 1770: Zophany, 1770 ca. The Sharp family: see the white basses http://www.aquilacorde.com/zophany.jpg If for a specific purpose, why substitute for 7c and not also for 6c? I think your suggestion that 2/ La Hyre painted what he saw at that given moment - the white 7th string was put on after the original
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
Exactly the point. Had a discussion with Mimmo concerning this, the color you see on the painting is the red lead oxide. The darker slightly brownish red - mercury oxide. Both are much easier to combine with gut or silk (and heavier by much, making for smaller diameters). As a matter of fact many historical silk or gut weighed articles (like G. Washington's american flag, or leather articles from before 19th century) were chemically weighed with lead and mercury oxides and salts. Some of the the mercury salts produce quite transparent weighed gut, by the way. This was Mimmo's dilemma, of course. Copper has to be loaded with a spoon, literally, it does not bind chemically, whereas both lead and mercury are very willing with organics... With what we know now of both mercury and lead, anyone here would be willing to use historically accurate strings?.. alexander On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:52:45 + dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote: On Sun, Feb 22, 2009, Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl said: Dear Anthony, I thought that lead is poisness, isn't it? Didn't they know about it? No, well, some had clues, but noone knew as we do today. This is an era when mercury amalgams were used to plate with silver and gold; driing off the mercury using heat; shortening the life of everyone downwind. Lead compounds were used to sweeten certain wines, leading perhaps to the deafness of Bhetoven an perhaps to the death of Mozart. Things that killed slowly were hard to prove as cause of death. Consider that many of the cosmetics in use were also deadly, probably many of the tinctures ground by painters. Water used by the brewers on the London Bridge was drawn from the river thames itself... -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
So, we aren't HIP anymore, are we? At least I don't fancy.. :-( Jaroslaw - Original Message - From: alexander voka...@verizon.net To: dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 8:15 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre Exactly the point. Had a discussion with Mimmo concerning this, the color you see on the painting is the red lead oxide. The darker slightly brownish red - mercury oxide. Both are much easier to combine with gut or silk (and heavier by much, making for smaller diameters). As a matter of fact many historical silk or gut weighed articles (like G. Washington's american flag, or leather articles from before 19th century) were chemically weighed with lead and mercury oxides and salts. Some of the the mercury salts produce quite transparent weighed gut, by the way. This was Mimmo's dilemma, of course. Copper has to be loaded with a spoon, literally, it does not bind chemically, whereas both lead and mercury are very willing with organics... With what we know now of both mercury and lead, anyone here would be willing to use historically accurate strings?.. alexander On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:52:45 + dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote: On Sun, Feb 22, 2009, Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl said: Dear Anthony, I thought that lead is poisness, isn't it? Didn't they know about it? No, well, some had clues, but noone knew as we do today. This is an era when mercury amalgams were used to plate with silver and gold; driing off the mercury using heat; shortening the life of everyone downwind. Lead compounds were used to sweeten certain wines, leading perhaps to the deafness of Bhetoven an perhaps to the death of Mozart. Things that killed slowly were hard to prove as cause of death. Consider that many of the cosmetics in use were also deadly, probably many of the tinctures ground by painters. Water used by the brewers on the London Bridge was drawn from the river thames itself... -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
Dear Jaroslaw It is good to be discussing again with you. Le 22 févr. 09 à 18:16, Jarosław Lipski a écrit : Dear Anthony, I thought that lead is poisness, isn't it? Didn't they know about it? I am sure they knew it was poisonous to eat, but may not have realized it was dangerous as a dye/loading through the skin. Mimmo mentions several ancient recipes that could have been easily employed for ‘loading’ gut (Giovanventura Rossetti’s recipes for dyeing fabrics, silk and leather (Venezia, 1548): Some of these describe how to incorporate cinnabar (red mercury sulphide) or lithargyrum (yellow lead oxide) into wax, leather, silk, wood, hair, inks c.: indeed, only a short step away from gut So if they dyed leather and silk with mercury, they would probably not have worried lead or mercury on gut. Until very recently people used lead paint, even for babies high chairs, and also lead pipes for drinking water. They also put mercury on the backs of mirrors. Look how we have used asbestos, even when we knew how dangerous it was. I even have some oil-bath caps and transformers on my amps (I am ashamed to say), although, I know it could be dangerous (pyrolene), but I foolishly like the sound. I don't know whether any lutensists had symptoms of saturnism? The other basses are neither brown nor red. Maybe it's a matter of light, but they really look like copper wounds. Lead tri oxide or lead-dioxide could perhaps give such a colour? http://www.aquilacorde.com/pigmenti.JPG Compare with the theorbo strings http://tinyurl.com/conmfc Mine are browner, or more purple, It is true http://tinyurl.com/burdjo Perhaps, we may discover they did have early wirewounds, but if so, the overall coppery colour would indicate complete wire wounds, not demifilé, and there are absolutely no mention even in Playford of that. The colour of the full-wire wound is not quite as in the de La Hyre painting above, but copper does vary in colour. http://www.aquilacorde.com/close.JPG But it is a painting, so perhaps the colour is not completely accurate. It is true that my loaded (see above) are red-brown, or purpley-brown. If really loading not dyeing was involved maybe they had some local recepies giving in the end this color? Well there are those questions concerning the thickness of the 5c and 6c strings, which Mimmo thinks does point to loading, if the painting is accurate. 6c being the same thickness as the 5c, if I remember, when it should be thicker, could imply a densified (loaded, or wound) string. There is one other thing, I think it is possible to load directly with an Oxide, but the result is less heavy. The resulting string might be x 1,5 more heavy than pure gut (I don't quite remember), and not the desired x2. The result however, could be much brighter, I imagine, like dyed leather. However, there is no way any final conclusions can be made, just very interesting hypotheses. Best wishes Anthony Regards Jaroslaw Special loaded? We know nothing about white loading. However, Mimmo has told me of one possibility, lead carbonate is a white and very dense insoluble powder, which was largely employed in the past under the name Biacca, or Basic lead carbonate. It was the only white insoluble pigment of the past. The density is arround 7,0. http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonato_di_piombo Another problem for the pure gut hypothesis, according to Mimmo, is that sulfur treatment, which make strings whiter, seems not to have been in use on gut strings, before mid 17th c. Such thickness of gut string, Mimmo tells me should be brownish. So perhaps lead carbonate is the answer. Place maker? Possible, however people that like this sort of things usualy make more than one - like the dots on the neck's side. Plain thicker gut? Could be, although this wouldn't be my choice as mentioned before. Artistic implication? This one I rather exclude. The allegory is made by juxtaposing some objects, however it doesn't mean they wouldn't be painted faithfully. For example La Hyre juxtaposed the singing bird sitting on the back of the chair symbolising the free music and the theorbo player as a (probably a rossignol) symbol of the learned music. However both are painted faithfuly I believe. In general La Hyre was very acurate in portrait- painting so it would be rather strange if he made an exception and didn't pay any attention to the details this time. Yes, when I looked in bigger magnification, I was also struck by the details, as also pointed out by Dana. So my guess is, it could be some kind of a temporary substitute. That or possibly lead carbonate because as Mimmo seems to think, plain gut would possibly not have been white. Thank you, Jaroslaw, for this very interesting example. Regards Anthony Regards Jaroslaw - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr To: Jarosław Lipski
[LUTE] Re: Straight Answer Please
As I understand it. We have standard theorboes and we have toy theorboes. So if French poodles are anything to go by, there should also be miniature theorboes. I have waited two weeks for someone to ask this. Now who knows the centimetres to tell the difference? Best Wishes Ron (UK) -Original Message- From: David Rastall [mailto:dlu...@verizon.net] Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 5:11 PM To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Net Subject: [LUTE] Straight Answer Please The current topic under discussion of toy theorbos has failed so far to answer the one question without which there is no basis for discussion at all, namely, what size does a theorbo have to be so that it can no longer be called a toy theorbo? I request a straight answer, please: no letters in the body of the answer except cm following some numbers. David R dlu...@verizon.net -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
The basoon first appeared about 1650. But obviously it could be a bass or tenor as well. Jaroslaw - Original Message - From: dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 8:07 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre On Sat, Feb 21, 2009, Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl said: Dear Dana, The reproduction doesn't show that detail particularly well because that area is very dark, but as far as I can remember it from the museum, the book stands on the table covered with some black fabric, and leaning against the basoon Perhaps a bit early to be called bassoon, and looks more to me like a shalm; extended tenor or bass to judge from the crook. Wonder what the shalm was braced with (I use x-legged dowels). Its clues like this that make possible replicas of the furniture in everyday use which is only preserved iconographically :-) -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
SOT Remember mercury was used in ancient times as a cure for syphillis? :-) I've never heard of it really being a true remedy though! Cheers! Lex van Sante Op 22 feb 2009, om 20:15 heeft alexander het volgende geschreven: Exactly the point. Had a discussion with Mimmo concerning this, the color you see on the painting is the red lead oxide. The darker slightly brownish red - mercury oxide. Both are much easier to combine with gut or silk (and heavier by much, making for smaller diameters). As a matter of fact many historical silk or gut weighed articles (like G. Washington's american flag, or leather articles from before 19th century) were chemically weighed with lead and mercury oxides and salts. Some of the the mercury salts produce quite transparent weighed gut, by the way. This was Mimmo's dilemma, of course. Copper has to be loaded with a spoon, literally, it does not bind chemically, whereas both lead and mercury are very willing with organics... With what we know now of both mercury and lead, anyone here would be willing to use historically accurate strings?.. alexander On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:52:45 + dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote: On Sun, Feb 22, 2009, Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl said: Dear Anthony, I thought that lead is poisness, isn't it? Didn't they know about it? No, well, some had clues, but noone knew as we do today. This is an era when mercury amalgams were used to plate with silver and gold; driing off the mercury using heat; shortening the life of everyone downwind. Lead compounds were used to sweeten certain wines, leading perhaps to the deafness of Bhetoven an perhaps to the death of Mozart. Things that killed slowly were hard to prove as cause of death. Consider that many of the cosmetics in use were also deadly, probably many of the tinctures ground by painters. Water used by the brewers on the London Bridge was drawn from the river thames itself... -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Staff notation software - views?
All kinds, including g-to-g'' mandolino/mandola? Eugene - Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp Date: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:27 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Staff notation software - views? To: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, LuteNet list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Harmony Assistant from Myriad is worth a look. It does tab too and has presets for all kinds of lutes. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
I'd guess a great bass recorder, especially since there are other recorders in the pictures. It's not a bassoon or dulcian. Those have a U-shaped structure, and this looks like a single bore instrument. FWIW, the only extended tenor shawms I've seen (one of them in our loud band) use a slightly bent bocal, not the bassoon-like one in the picture, and the top of the instrument is not nearly as broad, but there could be other designs I'm not aware of. Guy -Original Message- From: Jaroslaw Lipski [mailto:jaroslawlip...@wp.pl] Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 2:37 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre The basoon first appeared about 1650. But obviously it could be a bass or tenor as well. Jaroslaw - Original Message - From: dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 8:07 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre On Sat, Feb 21, 2009, Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl said: Dear Dana, The reproduction doesn't show that detail particularly well because that area is very dark, but as far as I can remember it from the museum, the book stands on the table covered with some black fabric, and leaning against the basoon Perhaps a bit early to be called bassoon, and looks more to me like a shalm; extended tenor or bass to judge from the crook. Wonder what the shalm was braced with (I use x-legged dowels). Its clues like this that make possible replicas of the furniture in everyday use which is only preserved iconographically :-) -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
Dear Anthony, There is a difference in using some dangerous metals for ordinary items and musical strings. With former your contact is limited (like a mirror - you rarely touch it). With later providing you play a lot, the skin contact is enormous. It's like smoking cigarets. You may or may not die of the lung cancer, but you take your risk. And you know about it. So I just wonder if they knew about it as well. Concerning the string color, I was really struck by the tone color of the strings I saw in MM. I thought: here we have an old lady with some modern copper strings. The colors of the real picture differ from those of the reproduction. But obviously I agree, the color as such is subjective, so maybe for you they wouldn't seem as copper-like as for me. I appreciate scientific attitude in musicology. Until we don't have any proof there were some wire wounds as early as then, I can't claim I saw them on the picture. I do not exclude any possibility, neither loading nor dyeing (whatever one means by this). It is probable that the chemicals you mentioned were used to load the gut, however it would be nice to find at least some pieces of old lute gut strings. I understand that there is a big concern about the health issue in string making which is enormously important IMHO, but this means as Alexander pointed out that we will never be absolutely HIP (who wants to be?). Best wishes Jaroslaw So if they dyed leather and silk with mercury, they would probably not have worried lead or mercury on gut. Until very recently people used lead paint, even for babies high chairs, and also lead pipes for drinking water. They also put mercury on the backs of mirrors. Look how we have used asbestos, even when we knew how dangerous it was. I even have some oil-bath caps and transformers on my amps (I am ashamed to say), although, I know it could be dangerous (pyrolene), but I foolishly like the sound. I don't know whether any lutensists had symptoms of saturnism? The other basses are neither brown nor red. Maybe it's a matter of light, but they really look like copper wounds. Lead tri oxide or lead-dioxide could perhaps give such a colour? http://www.aquilacorde.com/pigmenti.JPG Compare with the theorbo strings http://tinyurl.com/conmfc Mine are browner, or more purple, It is true http://tinyurl.com/burdjo Perhaps, we may discover they did have early wirewounds, but if so, the overall coppery colour would indicate complete wire wounds, not demifilé, and there are absolutely no mention even in Playford of that. The colour of the full-wire wound is not quite as in the de La Hyre painting above, but copper does vary in colour. http://www.aquilacorde.com/close.JPG But it is a painting, so perhaps the colour is not completely accurate. It is true that my loaded (see above) are red-brown, or purpley-brown. If really loading not dyeing was involved maybe they had some local recepies giving in the end this color? Well there are those questions concerning the thickness of the 5c and 6c strings, which Mimmo thinks does point to loading, if the painting is accurate. 6c being the same thickness as the 5c, if I remember, when it should be thicker, could imply a densified (loaded, or wound) string. There is one other thing, I think it is possible to load directly with an Oxide, but the result is less heavy. The resulting string might be x 1,5 more heavy than pure gut (I don't quite remember), and not the desired x2. The result however, could be much brighter, I imagine, like dyed leather. However, there is no way any final conclusions can be made, just very interesting hypotheses. Best wishes Anthony Regards Jaroslaw Special loaded? We know nothing about white loading. However, Mimmo has told me of one possibility, lead carbonate is a white and very dense insoluble powder, which was largely employed in the past under the name Biacca, or Basic lead carbonate. It was the only white insoluble pigment of the past. The density is arround 7,0. http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonato_di_piombo Another problem for the pure gut hypothesis, according to Mimmo, is that sulfur treatment, which make strings whiter, seems not to have been in use on gut strings, before mid 17th c. Such thickness of gut string, Mimmo tells me should be brownish. So perhaps lead carbonate is the answer. Place maker? Possible, however people that like this sort of things usualy make more than one - like the dots on the neck's side. Plain thicker gut? Could be, although this wouldn't be my choice as mentioned before. Artistic implication? This one I rather exclude. The allegory is made by juxtaposing some objects, however it doesn't mean they wouldn't be painted faithfully. For example La Hyre juxtaposed the singing bird sitting on the back of the chair symbolising the free music and the theorbo player as a (probably a rossignol) symbol of the learned music. However both are painted
[LUTE] Re: Straight Answer Please
Dear David, Sorry for writing without giving any numbers, but I thought all this toy theorbo discussion is pointless. There are just instruments of different sizes. Comparing to the flute familly, I wouldn't call piccolo flute a toy flute. Even the smallest instrument can be a concert instrument. What makes an instrument a toy is a faulty construction. Like a full size badly constructed, non resonant, awfull action guitar could be a toy guitar. Which means it's an instrument for non proffesional use. Small theorbo can be a very proffesional instrument. The term scaled-down toy versions introduced Lynda Sayce in her very interesting essay http://theorbo.com/Theorbo/Bigtheorbo.htm on purpose, to stress the necessity of using big instruments in an ensamble (in order to be heard). This however doesn't mean that there is no place in proffesional music making for smaller instruments. Concerning the tunings, I think that Stewart McCoy wrote a very comprehensive email in which he cited Maces opinions. Regards Jaroslaw - Original Message - From: David Rastall dlu...@verizon.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 6:11 PM Subject: [LUTE] Straight Answer Please The current topic under discussion of toy theorbos has failed so far to answer the one question without which there is no basis for discussion at all, namely, what size does a theorbo have to be so that it can no longer be called a toy theorbo? I request a straight answer, please: no letters in the body of the answer except cm following some numbers. David R dlu...@verizon.net -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
It is most likely a larger size shawm. Bass and larger 16th C recorders usually had a removable cap, often with a brass band on the end, similar to the ones on the fontanelle (the pepper-pot covering the little finger key). You would see this even if the instrument were turned so that the window was facing away from you. The edge between the side and the top of the cap was typically beveled. You don't see any of this in the painting. Also, the instrument in the painting is a bit slender looking for a recorder of that size, but not for a shawm. Compare the painting with the Praetorius woodcuts. (Without getting into the theorbo debate, the woodcuts correlate pretty well with surviving instruments for the woodwinds.) ...Bob I'd guess a great bass recorder, especially since there are other recorders in the pictures. It's not a bassoon or dulcian. Those have a U-shaped structure, and this looks like a single bore instrument. FWIW, the only extended tenor shawms I've seen (one of them in our loud band) use a slightly bent bocal, not the bassoon-like one in the picture, and the top of the instrument is not nearly as broad, but there could be other designs I'm not aware of. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Straight Answer Please
On Feb 22, 2009, at 9:11 AM, David Rastall wrote: The current topic under discussion of toy theorbos has failed so far to answer the one question without which there is no basis for discussion at all, namely, what size does a theorbo have to be so that it can no longer be called a toy theorbo? I request a straight answer, please: no letters in the body of the answer except cm following some numbers. Odd that you pose the question right after Martyn Hodgson spilled the beans after years of vagueness, writing: It was precisely the unecessary stringing of small theorboes (say, fingered string lengths around 76cm) as double-re-entrant at modern pitch (or modern 'baroque' pitch) that, you will recall, was the original issue in the present exchange. Martyn is, as far as I've been able to tell, the only list correspondent carrying the torch for the Theory of Theorbo Toyosity, so there may not be anyone else willing to offer another number, much as I appreciate Mathias Roesel's bringing Douglas Adams into the discussion. Linda Sayce, whose web-page Jeremiad about small theorbos came up in a post earlier today, does not give a Toyosity Threshold number. Nor does she mention varying historical pitch levels. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Straight Answer Please
On Feb 22, 2009, at 3:32 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote: 42 8) Mathias Thank you, Mathias. You're the only one who has given me what I requested: a straight numerical answer. Unfortunately, wrong question! ;-) Conclusion: it is easier on the lute list to get the answer to life, the universe and everything, than it is to obtain a simple string length. So it goes... Seriously, I do appreciate everyone's comments. The whole question of when is a lute not a lute or in this case, when is a theorbo really a theorbo, is something I find incomprehensible. DR dlu...@verizon.net -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
