[LUTE] New vihuela
Hello, I'm happy to present my new vihuela, made by Didier Jarny... Rosewood and maple back and sides, maple neck and head, snakewood fretboard. Probably not an historical model (but iconographical inspiration), we choose, with Didier the woods and decoration and he did a fantastic job, and the instrument is nice looking, nice sounding, and very well set up, so easy to play. So here it is : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htHj3pACSKc Valéry ;-) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute size and set-up was Re: What makes a good lute?
Thank you David, But the point being made was that it may well not be that '90 percent that are still set up wrong' as you assert but that the player's posture is wrong (eg holding cradled in the lap and/or too close to horizontal) and/or the plucking position is inappropriate. If these defects, of the player not the instrument, are attended to you may not find that such a large proportion of large instruments are 'set up wrong'. Regarding your observation about Lynda Sayce's playing: ' As far as chords on the theorbo, Linda does a great job, I just saw a vid of her playing the Stabat Mater, and if one had large hands, one could of course play every chord.'' , what precisely is meant by 'play every chord' . Are you suggesting that all nominal G lute chords should be playable on a theorbo? Martyn --- On Sat, 14/4/12, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute size and set-up was Re: What makes a good lute? To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 14 April, 2012, 22:11 Absolutely agree that technique is important! But those 90 percent that are still set up wrong, ouch! all those missed notes, so unnecessary. On a double strung instrument, it is a cart-horse scenario. You cannot develop technique unless the spacing is correct, just like you can't dance in the wrong trousers. Pedaling the cart and horse backwards. Main reason people don't make a good sound: wrong setup. So, you may say, I don't want to replace my lute or drill out the bridge--fair enough! Try one of mine first. You will be convinced in five minutes and also reap the health benefits of a stay in California. The spacing at the rose to which you refer is part of the equation. Three points determine the string lines: bridge, nut, plucking point (string thickness as well, if you don't measure from the edges). I'm now doing some super-macro videos that show how the strings vibrate in tandem when spaced correctly. It is very interesting! As far as chords on the theorbo, Linda does a great job, I just saw a vid of her playing the Stabat Mater, and if one had large hands, one could of course play every chord. And if one didn't have large hands, one could change the spacing to play everything as well--no double strings on the modern theorbo to go twang in the night. dt __ From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: [2]vidan...@sbcglobal.net Cc: Lute Dmth [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [4]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Wed, April 11, 2012 1:46:06 AM Subject: Lute size and set-up was Re: What makes a good lute? David, Clearly the overall size of an instrument and things like string spacing are relevant to the ease of playing. But if a player struggles with a particular size and/or specification of lute, before jumping to erroneous conclusions it's important to see if the player's posture and hand position/technique are not the real culprits. Regarding the 'wrong' size instrument: a player may seem to struggle with a larger instrument than that they are used to simply because they are holding it an unsuitable/inappropriate manner - rather that their arms/hands are intrinsically incapable of the stretch required. For example, if a player holds a large lute instrument as a modern 'classical' guitar (ie cradled low down in the lap and at a relatively low angle to the ground) they may find left arm stretch difficulties which can readily be overcome by adopting a posture with the instrument resting on the right thigh (as often seen in early representations). This can result in the instrument now being held some 10/15cm to the player's right and bringing the nut a similar distance closer to the left hand and so stretches which had previously seemed difficult may be more readily achieved. Holding a large instrument in a more upright position also helps since it better fits with the arm/body geometry and increases the effective stretch of the left arm. The end result of all this is to give up to 15cm extra left arm stretch and thus increasing the effective left arm stretch from, say, 76cm string length to around 90cm. Similarly, if a player is playing well up to the rose rather than close to the bridge, the natural tapering of string separation from bridge to nut will result in a small, but noticeable, reduction in string separation at the actual plucking point which is not the fault of the string spacing at the bridge but of the player's own technique.
[LUTE] Re: Lute size and set-up was Re: What makes a good lute?
And thank you again David, Indeed, as I pointed out earlier it is the precise plucking point which is relevant. In particular if the player is plucking, say, up to the rose then the geometry of the instrument will result in a smaller course seperation than if they were plucking close to the bridge: - again a matter of the player's own technique rather than a deficiency in the instrument. In short, before blaming an instrument's size and specification the player should look to themselves first and ensure the problem isn't with their own posture and technique. Martyn --- On Sat, 14/4/12, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute size and set-up was Re: What makes a good lute? To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 14 April, 2012, 22:30 The important number is not the bridge or nut, but the spacing at the plucking point, which is derived from the string length, and the overall spacing plan, plus the thickness of the strings. Unless you go close parallel, which is more common on early instruments, 5mm is going to wing up being just on the edge. BUT you can of course widen it at the other end. And there, it depends a lot on the circumference of your fourth finger of the left hand when stopping the string. That needs to feel just right to execute fast trills. dt __ From: Anthony Hart [1]resea...@monsignor-reggio.com To: lute [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, April 11, 2012 2:51:18 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute size and set-up was Re: What makes a good lute? whilst on the subject of lute set up, I have a question of the action of the bass courses of a 14c Liuto attiorbato. I have found several suggestions concerning the ideal height of the bass strings above the finger board. 1. The strings should be about 5mm at the lower nut. 2. The strings should be in the same plane as the stopped strings. From observation from drawings: 1. A drawing of the 1639 Sellas instrument (upon which my instrument is based)by Robert Lundberg the top nut appears to be slightly lower than the line of the finger board. Also the upper nut appears to have a slight curve, as with a violin bridge, making the lowest course slightly lower than the preceding ones. 2. A drawing of the Railich instrument shows the line of the bass courses higher than the stopped ones. These observations are based on the thumbnail views from the appropriate websites so exact measurements not possible. Any other ideas? Many thanks Anthony David, Clearly the overall size of an instrument and things like string spacing are relevant to the ease of playing. But if a player struggles with a particular size and/or specification of lute, before jumping to erroneous conclusions it's important to see if the player's posture and hand position/technique are not the real culprits. Regarding the 'wrong' size instrument: a player may seem to struggle with a larger instrument than that they are used to simply because they are holding it an unsuitable/inappropriate manner - rather that their arms/hands are intrinsically incapable of the stretch required. For example, if a player holds a large lute instrument as a modern 'classical' guitar (ie cradled low down in the lap and at a relatively low angle to the ground) they may find left arm stretch difficulties which can readily be overcome by adopting a posture with the instrument resting on the right thigh (as often seen in early representations). This can result in the instrument now being held some 10/15cm to the player's right and bringing the nut a similar distance closer to the left hand and so stretches which had previously seemed difficult may be more readily achieved. Holding a large instrument in a more upright position also helps since it better fits with the arm/body geometry and increases the effective stretch of the left arm. The end result of all this is to give up to 15cm extra left arm stretch and thus increasing the effective left arm stretch from, say, 76cm string length to around 90cm. Similarly, if a player is playing well up to the rose rather than close to the bridge, the natural tapering of string separation from bridge to nut will result in a small, but noticeable, reduction in string separation
[LUTE] Re: Recercar Secondo by Gorzanis (1564) - in latest Lute News Music Supplement
On 15/04/2012 00:17, Ed Durbrow wrote: I think you mean NUMBER 10 on page 19. I like your interpretation. Nicely done, as usual. How did you do the video? The left side stays anchored but the video slowly zooms out. Was that done in software on one picture? Thanks. Yes, I meant number 10 on page 19! I used Photostory 3 for this video (and others too). This program only uses still images. You can use a single image or a succession of images. You can specify start points and end points of pans etc, etc. It's easy to use and compiles a wmv video in seconds. But it's a Windows program so no good if you're a Mac devotee. But, on the other hand again, it's a free download from Microsoft. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New vihuela
Very beautiful instrument, music and playing, Val. -Ned On Apr 15, 2012, at 2:35 AM, Sauvage Valéry wrote: Hello, I'm happy to present my new vihuela, made by Didier Jarny... Rosewood and maple back and sides, maple neck and head, snakewood fretboard. Probably not an historical model (but iconographical inspiration), we choose, with Didier the woods and decoration and he did a fantastic job, and the instrument is nice looking, nice sounding, and very well set up, so easy to play. So here it is : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htHj3pACSKc Valéry ;-) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] tuning of Bolivian guitarita?
Friends bought this in Boliva, anybody knows how it's tuned? David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New vihuela
VERY nice on all levels! Tom D Hello, I'm happy to present my new vihuela, made by Didier Jarny... Rosewood and maple back and sides, maple neck and head, snakewood fretboard. Probably not an historical model (but iconographical inspiration), we choose, with Didier the woods and decoration and he did a fantastic job, and the instrument is nice looking, nice sounding, and very well set up, so easy to play. So here it is : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htHj3pACSKc Valéry ;-) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362
[LUTE] CD Viability was Miking a lute/theorbo
CDs are dead and 48KHz sounds better. Thanks for these tips on recording! I have been asking colleagues and random friends this question for years: How long do YOU think it will be before CDs go the way of the Cassette? I did a recording with my Celtic band, Way Up North in 1994 - 5. At the time cassettes were still holding their sales power against CDs at about 50%. The trend was obvious, though. We had an equal number of Cassettes and CDs printed. I still have Cassettes left over. (Anybody want one? - FREE!) Similarly, my newest acoustic folk trio, Take 3, has completed a recording project, and one of our members insisted on getting 1000 CDs printed. I have a feeling that I may still have some of these in a closet 20 years from now ... I wanted to go with digital download cards and print-on-demand CDs, but agreed to printing 1000 CDs to keep the peace. The real death-knell for cassettes came when automobile makers stopped putting cassette players in vehicles. Automaker Ford has said that they will stop putting CD players in their cars: http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/car-cd-players-obsolete/ ( Or, from Television Station CBS 2 in Los Angeles ) - Ford will soon stop installing CD players in its new vehicles. The automaker is scrapping CD players in its new vehicle models and opting to instead install USB sockets for iPods and other digital music players. Ford says all of its new cars will have a computer hub, which will allow drivers to access their music libraries from the Internet. So, as recording artists trying to sell recorded music, where do we go from here? How long will MP3 last? Will FLAC become the format of choice? What do YOU think will be the next long-term viable media format for music sales? Or is there one? I'll look forward to all of your opinions. Tom Draughon http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net The dynamic range of digital exceeds the background noise in your room. For example, if your DR is 110 dB, and your background is 45 dB, you have only 65 dB range. A typical lute has DR of maybe 40 dB. Recording in 24 bits, each bit is worth 6dB. So when recording, set your levels high, but not at the very highest, becasue your end result will be 16 bit or less. USe that extra resolution to downsample and normalize at exactly the time of output for the best result. Use 48 kH, not 44.1: CDs are dead and 48 sounds better. Consider AAC 24 bit/48kHz for output--best kept secret in audio. Most people not only throw away the bits, they use a cheapo encoder that chops off all the high frequencies, even though free or inexpensive ones are available and need only to be set up once. dt _ _ From: Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp To: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com; LuteNet list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, April 11, 2012 3:48:35 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Miking a lute/theorbo On Apr 11, 2012, at 6:00 PM, Anthony Hind wrote: Ed Do I understand that you record in mono? I have often found that mono recordings are more relaxing than stereo, and analog more relaxing than digital; so mono analog is sometimes the easiest to listen to. It is as though the brain has lesswork to do recreating the sound image (trying to make the two sound images coincide). Although you no longer have indications of instrument position. No, I record in stereo if it is solo. Sometimes I record the lute in mono if there is a voice or other instrument because I have just one very expensive Neumann mic and I like to use it on the lute if I can. What I was saying is that if you record in a coincident pattern, there will be NO problems with phasing in mono playback. I don't know who listens in mono anymore, but it could happen. My main reason for using a coincident pattern though is that I can get a consistent sound on different days and even in different locations. I'm essentially lazy. It used to be true that mono tape had far more dynamic space than stereo (mono analog with Nagra whole track, instead of stereo halftrack; although I suppose with two Nagras synchronized for stereo, you would have the same dynamic space); but is this still applicable with the newest digital recording medium with various lossless compressing algorythms? No, I'm pretty sure the dynamic range is the same for mono or stereo in the digital domain. You choose the bit rate, after all. Personally, I feel the recording capabilities today far exceed the playback systems most people listen on. If I record at 24 bits 48k or 44.1k (some record at double or quadruple that sample rate) with nice mics, the advantages are more in the manipulation/effect/processing domain than
[LUTE] Re: CD Viability was Miking a lute/theorbo
CDs are dead and 48KHz sounds better. This presumably means downloading to hard disk? Is it not so that SACD (which was excellent), and DVDA (a little less good) are now more or less dead on disks? Unfortunately, it seems to be MP3, which is winning this war, which seems a great pity. I hope I am wrong, David? Anthony __ De : t...@heartistrymusic.com t...@heartistrymusic.com A : lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net Envoye le : Dimanche 15 avril 2012 18h05 Objet : [LUTE] CD Viability was Miking a lute/theorbo CDs are dead and 48KHz sounds better. Thanks for these tips on recording! I have been asking colleagues and random friends this question for years: How long do YOU think it will be before CDs go the way of the Cassette? I did a recording with my Celtic band, Way Up North in 1994 - 5. At the time cassettes were still holding their sales power against CDs at about 50%. The trend was obvious, though. We had an equal number of Cassettes and CDs printed. I still have Cassettes left over. (Anybody want one? - FREE!) Similarly, my newest acoustic folk trio, Take 3, has completed a recording project, and one of our members insisted on getting 1000 CDs printed. I have a feeling that I may still have some of these in a closet 20 years from now ... I wanted to go with digital download cards and print-on-demand CDs, but agreed to printing 1000 CDs to keep the peace. The real death-knell for cassettes came when automobile makers stopped putting cassette players in vehicles. Automaker Ford has said that they will stop putting CD players in their cars: [1]http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/car-cd-players-obsolete/ ( Or, from Television Station CBS 2 in Los Angeles ) - Ford will soon stop installing CD players in its new vehicles. The automaker is scrapping CD players in its new vehicle models and opting to instead install USB sockets for iPods and other digital music players. Ford says all of its new cars will have a computer hub, which will allow drivers to access their music libraries from the Internet. So, as recording artists trying to sell recorded music, where do we go from here? How long will MP3 last? Will FLAC become the format of choice? What do YOU think will be the next long-term viable media format for music sales? Or is there one? I'll look forward to all of your opinions. Tom Draughon [2]http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html From: David Tayler [3]vidan...@sbcglobal.net The dynamic range of digital exceeds the background noise in your room. For example, if your DR is 110 dB, and your background is 45 dB, you have only 65 dB range. A typical lute has DR of maybe 40 dB. Recording in 24 bits, each bit is worth 6dB. So when recording, set your levels high, but not at the very highest, becasue your end result will be 16 bit or less. USe that extra resolution to downsample and normalize at exactly the time of output for the best result. Use 48 kH, not 44.1: CDs are dead and 48 sounds better. Consider AAC 24 bit/48kHz for output--best kept secret in audio. Most people not only throw away the bits, they use a cheapo encoder that chops off all the high frequencies, even though free or inexpensive ones are available and need only to be set up once. dt _ _ From: Ed Durbrow [4]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp To: Anthony Hind [5]agno3ph...@yahoo.com; LuteNet list [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, April 11, 2012 3:48:35 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Miking a lute/theorbo On Apr 11, 2012, at 6:00 PM, Anthony Hind wrote: Ed Do I understand that you record in mono? I have often found that mono recordings are more relaxing than stereo, and analog more relaxing than digital; so mono analog is sometimes the easiest to listen to. It is as though the brain has lesswork to do recreating the sound image (trying to make the two sound images coincide). Although you no longer have indications of instrument position. No, I record in stereo if it is solo. Sometimes I record the lute in mono if there is a voice or other instrument because I have just one very expensive Neumann mic and I like to use it on the lute if I can. What I was saying is that if you record in a coincident pattern, there will be NO problems with phasing in mono playback. I don't know who listens in mono anymore, but it could happen. My main reason for using a coincident pattern though is that I can get a
[LUTE] Re: Lute size and set-up was Re: What makes a good lute?
lute makers probably should check a palm size before deciding on fingerboard and other things, like on this movie (have a look at around 12,20 min) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHV3ODfFcgE Obviously not very often we live close to our lute maker. Pitty JL To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: New vihuela
Beautiful instrument and beautiful playing! Thanks Val! Arto On 15/04/12 09:35, Sauvage Valéry wrote: Hello, I'm happy to present my new vihuela, made by Didier Jarny... Rosewood and maple back and sides, maple neck and head, snakewood fretboard. Probably not an historical model (but iconographical inspiration), we choose, with Didier the woods and decoration and he did a fantastic job, and the instrument is nice looking, nice sounding, and very well set up, so easy to play. So here it is : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htHj3pACSKc Valéry ;-) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute size and set-up was Re: What makes a good lute?
Not sure I understand your question, but not all chords are playable by everyone on all lutes. However, most chords can be played on most lutes. If I had small hands, I could go to a smaller theorbo, or avoid certain chords, but it isn't really an issue for me. OTOH, if I had very large hands, lets say 50 percent larger, I could play a 90/180cm no problem and it would seem as if I were playing a 60 cm lute. Similarly, a modest 33 percent difference would yield an effective play ratio from 80 to 60. My teacher could easily stop two double courses with the tip of the index finger; I cannot. And there is that one E major chord that I can't play on most lutes. But on my mandolin, it is a piece of cake. So then if there were chords that you could not play on a 60 cm lute, that would equate to 33+ person on the 80cm, disregarding for the moment the distinct advantage of a single strung theorbo. One can also calculate the effective span of the instrument according to spacing. So for example, certain chords become playable when you narrow the spacing. In practice, I don't notice any gosh I can't reach those chords moments until I go above 85cm. But if I had smaller hands, that number would of course be significantly different; larger hands, and I would wonder what people were talking about. It would not register. Another way to look at it is that try as I might, I cannot palm a basketball. All I can do is dribble. dt __ From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net Sent: Sun, April 15, 2012 12:49:39 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute size and set-up was Re: What makes a good lute? Thank you David, But the point being made was that it may well not be that '90 percent that are still set up wrong' as you assert but that the player's posture is wrong (eg holding cradled in the lap and/or too close to horizontal) and/or the plucking position is inappropriate. If these defects, of the player not the instrument, are attended to you may not find that such a large proportion of large instruments are 'set up wrong'. Regarding your observation about Lynda Sayce's playing: ' As far as chords on the theorbo, Linda does a great job, I just saw a vid of her playing the Stabat Mater, and if one had large hands, one could of course play every chord.'' , what precisely is meant by 'play every chord' . Are you suggesting that all nominal G lute chords should be playable on a theorbo? Martyn --- On Sat, 14/4/12, David Tayler [1]vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: David Tayler [2]vidan...@sbcglobal.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute size and set-up was Re: What makes a good lute? To: lute [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 14 April, 2012, 22:11 Absolutely agree that technique is important! But those 90 percent that are still set up wrong, ouch! all those missed notes, so unnecessary. On a double strung instrument, it is a cart-horse scenario. You cannot develop technique unless the spacing is correct, just like you can't dance in the wrong trousers. Pedaling the cart and horse backwards. Main reason people don't make a good sound: wrong setup. So, you may say, I don't want to replace my lute or drill out the bridge--fair enough! Try one of mine first. You will be convinced in five minutes and also reap the health benefits of a stay in California. The spacing at the rose to which you refer is part of the equation. Three points determine the string lines: bridge, nut, plucking point (string thickness as well, if you don't measure from the edges). I'm now doing some super-macro videos that show how the strings vibrate in tandem when spaced correctly. It is very interesting! As far as chords on the theorbo, Linda does a great job, I just saw a vid of her playing the Stabat Mater, and if one had large hands, one could of course play every chord. And if one didn't have large hands, one could change the spacing to play everything as well--no double strings on the modern theorbo to go twang in the night. dt __ From: Martyn Hodgson [1][4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: [2][5]vidan...@sbcglobal.net Cc: Lute Dmth [3][6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [4][7]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Wed, April 11, 2012 1:46:06 AM Subject: Lute size and set-up was Re: What makes a good lute? David, Clearly the overall size of an instrument and things
[LUTE] Re: Lute size and set-up was Re: What makes a good lute?
yup! __ From: JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sun, April 15, 2012 9:24:58 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute size and set-up was Re: What makes a good lute? lute makers probably should check a palm size before deciding on fingerboard and other things, like on this movie (have a look at around 12,20 min) [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHV3ODfFcgE Obviously not very often we live close to our lute maker. Pitty JL To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHV3ODfFcgE 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
