[LUTE] Re: Cumb=C3=A9es?=

[howard posner]

> On May 27, 2017, at 6:37 AM, mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
> 
>  there were a lot of Africans in Spain during 
> the 16th and 18th centuries. North African is just a short distance 
> across the Mediterranean from Spain. 

Tangier is, but it’s 3,300 kilometers from Gibraltar to Dakar and 4,500 
kilometers to Sierra Leone.  Is the cumbee a Moorish dance?



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[LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature

[Arthur Ness]

   Thank you.  I was interested in the matter because surely Gumprecht
   must have had some input for the Rostock French 17th-century lute
   manuscript with 400 (!!) pieces.  It is copied on paper manufactured in
   Urach (40km south of Stuttgart--there was a duchal residence there),
   and not someplace in northern Germany a previously thought given the
   several northern lutenists represented.
   Arthur Ness
   arthurjn...@verizon.net
   -Original Message-
   From: Mathias Rösel 
   To: lute 
   Sent: Sat, May 27, 2017 3:28 pm
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature
   And as for your precise question, whether or not Gumprecht may have
   been teacher to Louise's father, Frederick Louis, that seems very
   likely IMO. Gumprecht was 48 at Frederick's birth, and when Gumprecht
   died, Frederick was 16 or 17.
   Mathias
   -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
   Von: lute-[1]a...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[2]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
   Im Auftrag von Mathias Rösel
   Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Mai 2017 21:02
   An: [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Betreff: [LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature
   Dear Arthur,
   That is interesting! Thanks for that. In 1681, father and son Gumprecht
   wrote a letter to the council of Stasburg, requesting that Jean
   Bethune, who was about to settle in Strasburg as an angélique teacher,
   be repelled from town. They seem to have been successful, as nothing is
   heard of Bethune afterwards. That very Bethune was the teacher of
   Marguerite Monin (whose lute book of 1664 in preserved in Paris) and of
   that student who penned down the angélique book that has been
   reproduced and published in facsimile by Minkoff as the only angélique
   tablature so far (F-Pn Rés. 169, manuscript Béthune).
   (Source:
   [4]http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Angelique/Angelique.htm
   l)
   Obviously, they considered Jean Bethune a rival to Gumprecht the
   younger in matters of the angélique.
   Gumprecht's appointment in Stuttgart as a teacher as from 1688 may have
   been a delayed result of the untimely death of William Louis of
   Württemberg (â  1677). William's widow had been appointed regent and
   custodian to her four children: Eleonore Dorothea (died in 1683 at the
   young age of nine), Eberhardine Luise (1675â1707), Eberhard Ludwig
   (1676â1733), and Magdalena Wilhelmine (1677â1742). At Gumprecht's
   arrival, Eberhardine was 13, Eberhard was 12, and Magdalena was 11
   years old.
   Gumprecht and Eberhard weren't allowed more than five years, as
   Eberhard was declared politically mature at age 16 by the emperor in
   1693. Eberhard became father to Frederick Louis in 1698, crown prince
   of Württemberg (who never became duke, as he died before his father in
   1731). Frederick in 1716 married Henrietta Maria of
   Brandenburg-Schwedt, with whom he had two children: Eberhard Friedrich
   (1718â1719) and Louise Frederica (1722â1791).
   Louise Frederica of Württemberg was granddaughter to Gumprecht's
   student Eberhard of Württemberg. She was 11 years old when her
   grandfather died. Later she married Frederick II Duke of
   Mecklenburg-Schwerin and brought her lute books to Mecklenburg.
   So, if Gumprecht left Stuttgart in 1715, he never came to see and teach
   Louise of Württemberg whose lute books we can study today.
   Mathias
   -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
   Von: lute-[5]a...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[6]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
   Im Auftrag von Arthur Ness
   Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Mai 2017 15:37
   An: mathias.roe...@t-online.de; [7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Betreff: [LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature
   Dear Mathias,
   Thank you for sending the *.PDF tablature with the midi audio.
   Incidentally Johann Gumprecht, d. J., (b. 1645) served in Stuttgart
   1688-1715 as "FÃÆÃ ¼rstliche Kammer- und Tutelar-Rat fÃÆÃ ¼r die
   musikalische
   Erziehung der herzoglichen Kinder" [Sittard, p. 65]. He played at the
   usual functions (at Mass, at dinner, instructing the children and
   pages, etc.), but was especially admired for playing the AngÃÆÃ ¨lique.
   He brought with him the French Lautenkunst as practiced in Strasbourg.
   Did he teach Princess Luisse's father?
   Arthur Ness
   [8]arthurjn...@verizon.net
   -Original Message-
   From: Mathias RÃÆÃ ¶sel 
   To: 'Lute net' <[9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Sat, May 27, 2017 6:31 am
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature
   Hi Alain,
   the angÃÆÃ ©lique is strung with 16 single strings. Ten are on the
   fretboard and six are bourdons. The pitches are as follows:
   1st = e5
   2nd = d5
   3rd = c5
   <<>>
   Mathias
   -UrsprÃÆÃ ¼ngliche Nachricht-
   Von: Alain Veylit [[1][10]mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com]
   Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Mai 2017 09:29
   An: Mathias RÃÆÃ ¶sel
   Betreff: Re: [LUTE] 

[LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature

[Arthur Ness]

   Dear Mathias,
   Yes, as you later write, I did not mean to suggest that Louise
   Frederica studied with Gumprecht d. J.  By coincidence just a few days
   ago I received by mistake the Béhune (Minkoff) facsimile, and now am
   glad that I decided to pay for it and keep it for my collection.   It's
   interesting that father and son wrote to expel Bethune so the son could
   take the position. Frederick Louis had some interesting musical travels
   and surely compiled a massive collection of scores. It is surely one of
   the largest music libraries to have survived  from the 18th
   century. And so little was lost from it over the years. By the way, do
   you know the first name of J. Caspar the Chorknab, later violist and
   scribe at the Stuttgart court?  His hand is so beautiful in the Pieces
   choises pour le Lut. .  I think he must have followed Louise to
   Mecklenberg as her secretary.  He entered some Accords in manuscripts
   copied by others (e.g., Schwinghammer), so must have advised her on
   musical matters as well.
   Arthur Ness
   arthurjn...@verizon.net
   -Original Message-
   From: Mathias Rösel 
   To: lute 
   Sent: Sat, May 27, 2017 3:04 pm
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature
   Dear Arthur,
   That is interesting! Thanks for that. In 1681, father and son Gumprecht
   wrote a letter to the council of Stasburg, requesting that Jean
   Bethune, who was about to settle in Strasburg as an angélique teacher,
   be repelled from town. They seem to have been successful, as nothing is
   heard of Bethune afterwards. That very Bethune was the teacher of
   Marguerite Monin (whose lute book of 1664 in preserved in Paris) and of
   that student who penned down the angélique book that has been
   reproduced and published in facsimile by Minkoff as the only angélique
   tablature so far (F-Pn Rés. 169, manuscript Béthune).
   (Source:
   [1]http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Angelique/Angelique.htm
   l)
   Obviously, they considered Jean Bethune a rival to Gumprecht the
   younger in matters of the angélique.
   Gumprecht's appointment in Stuttgart as a teacher as from 1688 may have
   been a delayed result of the untimely death of William Louis of
   Württemberg (â  1677). William's widow had been appointed regent and
   custodian to her four children: Eleonore Dorothea (died in 1683 at the
   young age of nine), Eberhardine Luise (1675â1707), Eberhard Ludwig
   (1676â1733), and Magdalena Wilhelmine (1677â1742). At Gumprecht's
   arrival, Eberhardine was 13, Eberhard was 12, and Magdalena was 11
   years old.
   Gumprecht and Eberhard weren't allowed more than five years, as
   Eberhard was declared politically mature at age 16 by the emperor in
   1693. Eberhard became father to Frederick Louis in 1698, crown prince
   of Württemberg (who never became duke, as he died before his father in
   1731). Frederick in 1716 married Henrietta Maria of
   Brandenburg-Schwedt, with whom he had two children: Eberhard Friedrich
   (1718â1719) and Louise Frederica (1722â1791).
   Louise Frederica of Württemberg was granddaughter to Gumprecht's
   student Eberhard of Württemberg. She was 11 years old when her
   grandfather died. Later she married Frederick II Duke of
   Mecklenburg-Schwerin and brought her lute books to Mecklenburg.
   So, if Gumprecht left Stuttgart in 1715, he never came to see and teach
   Louise of Württemberg whose lute books we can study today.
   Mathias
   -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
   Von: lute-[2]a...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[3]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
   Im Auftrag von Arthur Ness
   Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Mai 2017 15:37
   An: mathias.roe...@t-online.de; [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Betreff: [LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature
   Dear Mathias,
   Thank you for sending the *.PDF tablature with the midi audio.
   Incidentally Johann Gumprecht, d. J., (b. 1645) served in Stuttgart
   1688-1715 as "FÃÆÃ ¼rstliche Kammer- und Tutelar-Rat fÃÆÃ ¼r die
   musikalische
   Erziehung der herzoglichen Kinder" [Sittard, p. 65]. He played at the
   usual functions (at Mass, at dinner, instructing the children and
   pages, etc.), but was especially admired for playing the AngÃÆÃ ¨lique.
   He brought with him the French Lautenkunst as practiced in Strasbourg.
   Did he teach Princess Luisse's father?
   Arthur Ness
   [5]arthurjn...@verizon.net
   -Original Message-
   From: Mathias RÃÆÃ ¶sel 
   To: 'Lute net' <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Sat, May 27, 2017 6:31 am
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature
   Hi Alain,
   the angÃÆÃ ©lique is strung with 16 single strings. Ten are on the
   fretboard and six are bourdons. The pitches are as follows:
   1st = e5
   2nd = d5
   3rd = c5
   <<>>
   Mathias
   -UrsprÃÆÃ ¼ngliche Nachricht-
   Von: Alain Veylit 

[LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature

[Mathias Rösel]

And as for your precise question, whether or not Gumprecht may have been 
teacher to Louise's father, Frederick Louis, that seems very likely IMO. 
Gumprecht was 48 at Frederick's birth, and when Gumprecht died, Frederick was 
16 or 17.

Mathias



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag 
von Mathias Rösel
Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Mai 2017 21:02
An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature

Dear Arthur,

That is interesting! Thanks for that. In 1681, father and son Gumprecht wrote a 
letter to the council of Stasburg, requesting that Jean Bethune, who was about 
to settle in Strasburg as an angélique teacher, be repelled from town. They 
seem to have been successful, as nothing is heard of Bethune afterwards. That 
very Bethune was the teacher of Marguerite Monin (whose lute book of 1664 in 
preserved in Paris) and of that student who penned down the angélique book that 
has been reproduced and published in facsimile by Minkoff as the only angélique 
tablature so far (F-Pn Rés. 169, manuscript Béthune).
(Source: http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Angelique/Angelique.html)

Obviously, they considered Jean Bethune a rival to Gumprecht the younger in 
matters of the angélique.

Gumprecht's appointment in Stuttgart as a teacher as from 1688 may have been a 
delayed result of the untimely death of William Louis of Württemberg († 1677). 
William's widow had been appointed regent and custodian to her four children: 
Eleonore Dorothea (died in 1683 at the young age of nine), Eberhardine Luise 
(1675–1707), Eberhard Ludwig (1676–1733), and Magdalena Wilhelmine (1677–1742). 
At Gumprecht's arrival, Eberhardine was 13, Eberhard was 12, and Magdalena was 
11 years old.

Gumprecht and Eberhard weren't allowed more than five years, as Eberhard was 
declared politically mature at age 16 by the emperor in 1693. Eberhard became 
father to Frederick Louis in 1698, crown prince of Württemberg (who never 
became duke, as he died before his father in 1731). Frederick in 1716 married 
Henrietta Maria of Brandenburg-Schwedt, with whom he had two children: Eberhard 
Friedrich (1718–1719) and Louise Frederica (1722–1791). 

Louise Frederica of Württemberg was granddaughter to Gumprecht's student 
Eberhard of Württemberg. She was 11 years old when her grandfather died. Later 
she married Frederick II Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin and brought her lute 
books to Mecklenburg.

So, if Gumprecht left Stuttgart in 1715, he never came to see and teach Louise 
of Württemberg whose lute books we can study today.

Mathias




-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag 
von Arthur Ness
Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Mai 2017 15:37
An: mathias.roe...@t-online.de; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature

   Dear Mathias,

   Thank you for sending the *.PDF tablature with the midi audio.

   Incidentally Johann Gumprecht, d. J.,  (b. 1645) served in Stuttgart
   1688-1715 as "Fürstliche Kammer- und Tutelar-Rat für die musikalische
   Erziehung der herzoglichen Kinder" [Sittard, p. 65].  He played at the
   usual functions (at Mass, at dinner, instructing the children and
   pages, etc.), but was especially admired for playing the Angèlique.
   He brought with him the French Lautenkunst as practiced in Strasbourg.
   Did he teach Princess Luisse's father?

   Arthur Ness
   arthurjn...@verizon.net

   -Original Message-
   From: Mathias Rösel 
   To: 'Lute net' 
   Sent: Sat, May 27, 2017 6:31 am
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature
   Hi Alain,
   the angélique is strung with 16 single strings. Ten are on the
   fretboard and six are bourdons. The pitches are as follows:
   1st = e5
   2nd = d5
   3rd = c5

   <<>>

   Mathias
   -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
   Von: Alain Veylit [[1]mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com]
   Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Mai 2017 09:29
   An: Mathias Rösel
   Betreff: Re: [LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature
   Hi Mathias,
   Sounds feasible - but my German is rusty ... what was the tuning of the
   angelique and what is the meaning of the underlined a and /a? I
   would have jumped to the conclusion that a was equivalent to a "4"
   Alain
   On 05/26/2017 02:56 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote:
   > Organ tablature was in use for any instrument and even for singers,
   as it is a pitch notation.
   >
   > It may be much easier to expand lute tablature to the much desired
   > tablature for the angélique (see
   >
   [2]http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Angelique/Angelique.htm
   l
   > > Notation der Basschöre), for which not more than two additional
   > characters are required: _a_ (underlined) and /a
   >
   > Mathias

   --

References

   1. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com?
   2. 

[LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature

[Mathias Rösel]

Dear Arthur,

That is interesting! Thanks for that. In 1681, father and son Gumprecht wrote a 
letter to the council of Stasburg, requesting that Jean Bethune, who was about 
to settle in Strasburg as an angélique teacher, be repelled from town. They 
seem to have been successful, as nothing is heard of Bethune afterwards. That 
very Bethune was the teacher of Marguerite Monin (whose lute book of 1664 in 
preserved in Paris) and of that student who penned down the angélique book that 
has been reproduced and published in facsimile by Minkoff as the only angélique 
tablature so far (F-Pn Rés. 169, manuscript Béthune).
(Source: http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Angelique/Angelique.html)

Obviously, they considered Jean Bethune a rival to Gumprecht the younger in 
matters of the angélique.

Gumprecht's appointment in Stuttgart as a teacher as from 1688 may have been a 
delayed result of the untimely death of William Louis of Württemberg († 1677). 
William's widow had been appointed regent and custodian to her four children: 
Eleonore Dorothea (died in 1683 at the young age of nine), Eberhardine Luise 
(1675–1707), Eberhard Ludwig (1676–1733), and Magdalena Wilhelmine (1677–1742). 
At Gumprecht's arrival, Eberhardine was 13, Eberhard was 12, and Magdalena was 
11 years old.

Gumprecht and Eberhard weren't allowed more than five years, as Eberhard was 
declared politically mature at age 16 by the emperor in 1693. Eberhard became 
father to Frederick Louis in 1698, crown prince of Württemberg (who never 
became duke, as he died before his father in 1731). Frederick in 1716 married 
Henrietta Maria of Brandenburg-Schwedt, with whom he had two children: Eberhard 
Friedrich (1718–1719) and Louise Frederica (1722–1791). 

Louise Frederica of Württemberg was granddaughter to Gumprecht's student 
Eberhard of Württemberg. She was 11 years old when her grandfather died. Later 
she married Frederick II Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin and brought her lute 
books to Mecklenburg.

So, if Gumprecht left Stuttgart in 1715, he never came to see and teach Louise 
of Württemberg whose lute books we can study today.

Mathias




-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag 
von Arthur Ness
Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Mai 2017 15:37
An: mathias.roe...@t-online.de; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature

   Dear Mathias,

   Thank you for sending the *.PDF tablature with the midi audio.

   Incidentally Johann Gumprecht, d. J.,  (b. 1645) served in Stuttgart
   1688-1715 as "Fürstliche Kammer- und Tutelar-Rat für die musikalische
   Erziehung der herzoglichen Kinder" [Sittard, p. 65].  He played at the
   usual functions (at Mass, at dinner, instructing the children and
   pages, etc.), but was especially admired for playing the Angèlique.
   He brought with him the French Lautenkunst as practiced in Strasbourg.
   Did he teach Princess Luisse's father?

   Arthur Ness
   arthurjn...@verizon.net

   -Original Message-
   From: Mathias Rösel 
   To: 'Lute net' 
   Sent: Sat, May 27, 2017 6:31 am
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature
   Hi Alain,
   the angélique is strung with 16 single strings. Ten are on the
   fretboard and six are bourdons. The pitches are as follows:
   1st = e5
   2nd = d5
   3rd = c5

   <<>>

   Mathias
   -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
   Von: Alain Veylit [[1]mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com]
   Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Mai 2017 09:29
   An: Mathias Rösel
   Betreff: Re: [LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature
   Hi Mathias,
   Sounds feasible - but my German is rusty ... what was the tuning of the
   angelique and what is the meaning of the underlined a and /a? I
   would have jumped to the conclusion that a was equivalent to a "4"
   Alain
   On 05/26/2017 02:56 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote:
   > Organ tablature was in use for any instrument and even for singers,
   as it is a pitch notation.
   >
   > It may be much easier to expand lute tablature to the much desired
   > tablature for the angélique (see
   >
   [2]http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Angelique/Angelique.htm
   l
   > > Notation der Basschöre), for which not more than two additional
   > characters are required: _a_ (underlined) and /a
   >
   > Mathias

   --

References

   1. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com?
   2. http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Angelique/Angelique.html


To get on or off this list see list information at 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature

[Mathias Rösel]

Hi Alain,

Yes, there are two major manuscript sources and one print available online. 
The manuscript sources are:

1. The anonymous tablature for the angélique A 3.329, preserved in the Moravian 
museum in Brno (Smetanova 14, 602 00 Brno): 
http://www.manuscriptorium.com/apps/index.php?envLang=en#search (search word: 
tabulatura angeliku)

2. Marguerite Monin's lute book. Folios 1r to 23v contain music for the 
angélique.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b52503663g 

The print is Jakob Kremberg's Musicalische Gemüths-Ergötzung (Dresde, 1689): 
http://imslp.org/wiki/Musicalische_Gem%C3%BCths-Erg%C3%B6tzung_(Kremberg,_Jakob)
 – with his exceptional characters for the bass courses.

Mathias



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag 
von Alain Veylit
Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Mai 2017 18:31
An: 'Lute net'
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature

Thank you Mathias for this useful detail,

Except for the 17th string, it should be fairly easy to implement - one last 
request if you can, do you happen to have a link handy to a digital facsimile 
of angelique tablature? If not, I'll do my own digging, but you are more 
knowledgeable than I am and might pick a better sample for checking purposes.

Alain


On 05/27/2017 03:28 AM, Mathias Rösel wrote:
> Hi Alain,
> the angélique is strung with 16 single strings. Ten are on the fretboard and 
> six are bourdons. The pitches are as follows:
>
> 1st = e5
> 2nd = d5
> 3rd = c5
> 4th = b4
> 5th = a4
> 6th = g4
> 7th = f4
> 8th = e4
> 9th = d4
> 10th = c4
> 11th = b3
> 12th = a3
> 13th = g3
> 14th = f3
> 15th = e3
> 16th = c3
>
> The strings are retuned as from the 4th to the 15th courses according to key. 
> The 16th string is sometimes retuned to D or Bb respectively, according to 
> key, but more often than not stays at C.
>
> The characters for the first six courses are the same as in lute tablature. 
> Angélique tablature has six lines and rhythm signs just like baroque lute 
> tablature. The characters for the courses below the staff are as follows:
>
> 7th = a
> 8th = _a_ (underlined)
> 9th = /a
> 10th = //a
> 11th = ///a
> 12th = a
> 13th = /a
> 14th = 4
> 15th = 5
> 16th = 6
>
> The 7th to 10th courses, too, are frequently fretted up to the 4th fret, so 
> characters a to e are required for them. The 11th to 16th courses are not 
> fretted.
>
> One single manuscript (Schwerin 640) requires a 17th string so that one may 
> have D and C at the same time. That manuscript shows the Arabic numerals 7 to 
> 17 for the bass courses below the staff instead of lute tablature characters.
>
> Another exceptional source (Jakob Kremberg, 40 airs, Dresde 1689) shows the 
> following characters for the bass courses below the staff:
>
> 7th = a
> 8th = _a_ (underlined)
> 9th = /a
> 10th = //a
> 11th = ///a
> 12th = 4
> 13th = 5
> 14th = 6
> 15th = 7
> 16th = 8
>
> Mathias
>
>
>
> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: Alain Veylit [mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com]
> Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Mai 2017 09:29
> An: Mathias Rösel
> Betreff: Re: [LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature
>
> Hi Mathias,
>
> Sounds feasible - but my German is rusty ... what was the tuning of the 
> angelique and what is the meaning of the underlined a and /a?  I would 
> have jumped to the conclusion that a was equivalent to a "4"
> diapason in lute tablature, but you give 5 slashes (not 4): /a.
> Sorry for my ignorance, I hope you can help me fill up the gaps.
>
> I have seen some facsimiles of music for the angelique, but thought it was 
> very much the same as tablature for lute and did not really research that 
> topic further.
>
> Alain
>
>
>
> On 05/26/2017 02:56 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote:
>> Organ tablature was in use for any instrument and even for singers, as it is 
>> a pitch notation.
>>
>> It may be much easier to expand lute tablature to the much desired 
>> tablature for the angélique (see 
>> http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Angelique/Angelique.html
>>> Notation der Basschöre), for which not more than two additional
>> characters are required: _a_ (underlined) and /a
>>
>> Mathias
>>
>>
>>
>> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
>> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im 
>> Auftrag von Alain Veylit
>> Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Mai 2017 20:20
>> An: Lute net
>> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature
>>
>> I started implementing keyboard tablature in my software Fandango, 
>> but the need is so little and editing so complicated that I did not 
>> really complete it fully. German Keyboard tab is like German tab in 
>> that groups of notes hang from the top line, but letters indicate 
>> pitch rather than fret position, using the A-H alphabetical sequence.
>> Additionally, there are two types of rhythm flags: one at the top 
>> similar to lute tablature flags, and individual flags for notes 
>> within a chord indicating how long that specific note is 

[LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature

[Alain Veylit]

Thank you Mathias for this useful detail,

Except for the 17th string, it should be fairly easy to implement - one 
last request if you can, do you happen to have a link handy to a digital 
facsimile of angelique tablature? If not, I'll do my own digging, but 
you are more knowledgeable than I am and might pick a better sample for 
checking purposes.


Alain


On 05/27/2017 03:28 AM, Mathias Rösel wrote:

Hi Alain,
the angélique is strung with 16 single strings. Ten are on the fretboard and 
six are bourdons. The pitches are as follows:

1st = e5
2nd = d5
3rd = c5
4th = b4
5th = a4
6th = g4
7th = f4
8th = e4
9th = d4
10th = c4
11th = b3
12th = a3
13th = g3
14th = f3
15th = e3
16th = c3

The strings are retuned as from the 4th to the 15th courses according to key. 
The 16th string is sometimes retuned to D or Bb respectively, according to key, 
but more often than not stays at C.

The characters for the first six courses are the same as in lute tablature. 
Angélique tablature has six lines and rhythm signs just like baroque lute 
tablature. The characters for the courses below the staff are as follows:

7th = a
8th = _a_ (underlined)
9th = /a
10th = //a
11th = ///a
12th = a
13th = /a
14th = 4
15th = 5
16th = 6

The 7th to 10th courses, too, are frequently fretted up to the 4th fret, so 
characters a to e are required for them. The 11th to 16th courses are not 
fretted.

One single manuscript (Schwerin 640) requires a 17th string so that one may 
have D and C at the same time. That manuscript shows the Arabic numerals 7 to 
17 for the bass courses below the staff instead of lute tablature characters.

Another exceptional source (Jakob Kremberg, 40 airs, Dresde 1689) shows the 
following characters for the bass courses below the staff:

7th = a
8th = _a_ (underlined)
9th = /a
10th = //a
11th = ///a
12th = 4
13th = 5
14th = 6
15th = 7
16th = 8

Mathias



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Alain Veylit [mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com]
Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Mai 2017 09:29
An: Mathias Rösel
Betreff: Re: [LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature

Hi Mathias,

Sounds feasible - but my German is rusty ... what was the tuning of the angelique and 
what is the meaning of the underlined a and /a?  I would have jumped to the 
conclusion that a was equivalent to a "4"
diapason in lute tablature, but you give 5 slashes (not 4): /a.
Sorry for my ignorance, I hope you can help me fill up the gaps.

I have seen some facsimiles of music for the angelique, but thought it was very 
much the same as tablature for lute and did not really research that topic 
further.

Alain



On 05/26/2017 02:56 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote:

Organ tablature was in use for any instrument and even for singers, as it is a 
pitch notation.

It may be much easier to expand lute tablature to the much desired
tablature for the angélique (see
http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Angelique/Angelique.html

Notation der Basschöre), for which not more than two additional

characters are required: _a_ (underlined) and /a

Mathias



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im
Auftrag von Alain Veylit
Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Mai 2017 20:20
An: Lute net
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature

I started implementing keyboard tablature in my software Fandango, but
the need is so little and editing so complicated that I did not really
complete it fully. German Keyboard tab is like German tab in that
groups of notes hang from the top line, but letters indicate pitch
rather than fret position, using the A-H alphabetical sequence.
Additionally, there are two types of rhythm flags: one at the top
similar to lute tablature flags, and individual flags for notes within
a chord indicating how long that specific note is sustained. Tablature
was usually reserved for the left hand, while the top part was in
regular notation (as shown in the video). Various systems were used to
indicate which octave the note belonged to: A, a, a' or ''a, or lines
over the note. The system is logically simple but a real challenge to
read, particularly when you add messy hand-writing using old German
characters...  (Buxtehude comes to mind)

I thinks is the same system was used for harp tablature - as in the ap Huw MS - 
the main advantage being to indicate which note is played with which hand.

For another mixed system notation/tablature, see modern accordion
tablature:
http://www.accordeondiatonique.fr/comment-lire-une-tablature-accordeon
-diatonique/

Spanish keyboard tablature was completely different if I recall...
using numbers corresponding to the keys on the keyboard. See
http://www.organ.byu.edu/Bush_Library/Bush%20Files/Buxheimer%20Orgelbu
ch/Tablature%20notes.pdf

A fascinating and very arcane subject.  I am not sure what the advantage of a-h 
notation for the left hand may have been, but that system did survive for a 
couple centuries...  Quicker to jot down perhaps?

Alain


On 

[LUTE] Re: Marini (1655)

[mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk]

Thank you so much - that really is most helpful.
Have a nice weekend.
Monica

Original Message
From: jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
Date: 27/05/2017 13:57 
To: "Monica Hall", "'Lute List'"
Subj: Re: [LUTE] Marini (1655)

Violino Primo :
p. 8 : Balletto 3 and Balletto quarto
p. 9 : Zarabanda prima and Zarabanda Seconda

Violino Secondo :
p. 8 : Zarabanda Prima and Zarabanda Seconda
p. 9 : Zarabanda Terza and Zarabanda Quarta

Viola e Basso
p. 8 : Zarabanda Prima and Zarabanda Seconda (Tenor clef C3)
p. 9 : Zarabanda Terza and Zarabanda Quarta (Tenor clef C3

Basso Continuo : (with Alfabeto)
p. 8 : Zarabanda Prima and Zarabanda Seconda
p. 9 : Zarabanda Terza and Zarabanda Quarta

Hope it helps !

All the best,

Jean-Marie


--
 
>Does anyone happen to have a copy of Biagio Marini's Per ogni sorti 
>d'instrumento musicale (1655) to hand?  If they have I wonder if they 
>would be kind enough to look at the Zarabanda Seconda on page 8 and 9 
a 
>tell me how the parts are arranged on the pages. Are there two parts 
to 
>a page facing one another and if so which parts are on which page... 
I 
>hope that makes sense. 
>Thanks
>Monica
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Marini (1655)

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

Violino Primo :
p. 8 : Balletto 3 and Balletto quarto
p. 9 : Zarabanda prima and Zarabanda Seconda

Violino Secondo :
p. 8 : Zarabanda Prima and Zarabanda Seconda
p. 9 : Zarabanda Terza and Zarabanda Quarta

Viola e Basso
p. 8 : Zarabanda Prima and Zarabanda Seconda (Tenor clef C3)
p. 9 : Zarabanda Terza and Zarabanda Quarta (Tenor clef C3

Basso Continuo : (with Alfabeto)
p. 8 : Zarabanda Prima and Zarabanda Seconda
p. 9 : Zarabanda Terza and Zarabanda Quarta

Hope it helps !

All the best,

Jean-Marie


--
 
>Does anyone happen to have a copy of Biagio Marini's Per ogni sorti 
>d'instrumento musicale (1655) to hand?  If they have I wonder if they 
>would be kind enough to look at the Zarabanda Seconda on page 8 and 9 a 
>tell me how the parts are arranged on the pages. Are there two parts to 
>a page facing one another and if so which parts are on which page... I 
>hope that makes sense. 
>Thanks
>Monica
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Marini (1655)

[mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk]

Does anyone happen to have a copy of Biagio Marini's Per ogni sorti 
d'instrumento musicale (1655) to hand?  If they have I wonder if they 
would be kind enough to look at the Zarabanda Seconda on page 8 and 9 a 
tell me how the parts are arranged on the pages. Are there two parts to 
a page facing one another and if so which parts are on which page... I 
hope that makes sense. 
Thanks
Monica



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Cumb=C3=A9es?=

[mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk]

Briefly - the cumbee is an African rather than a Mexican popular dance 
- and surprise, surprise - there were a lot of Africans in Spain during 
the 16th and 18th centuries. North African is just a short distance 
across the Mediterranean from Spain. There are examples of the cumbee 
in other Spanish sources which have nothing to do with the New World. 
What Russell has to say on the subject is not very helpful as he 
thought it was Mexican or rather that Spaniards got it from African 
slaves in Mexico and brought it back to Spain. Pity he didn't look at 
an atlas. 
Monica 

Original Message
From: lucashar...@live.ca
Date: 26/05/2017 19:47 
To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
Subj: [LUTE] Cumbées

Hello, friends,


   Can anybody give me any background about the “Cumbées” 
variations from
   Santiago de Murcia’s Saldívar Codex?


   Is it related at all to the popular dance genre in Colombia called
   “cumbia”?


   Does anyone have Craig Russell’s book on de Murcia and could 
possibly
   look up for me what he says about the Cumbé?


   If it’s indeed a West African genre, how would de Murcia have 
heard it
   if, as is now thought, he didn’t travel to the New World and hear 
it as
   brought there by slave populations?  Should we presume that Africans
   would have brought those sounds to Iberia as well?


   Many thanks!


 * Lucas Harris

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature

[Mathias Rösel]

Hi Alain,
the angélique is strung with 16 single strings. Ten are on the fretboard and 
six are bourdons. The pitches are as follows:

1st = e5
2nd = d5
3rd = c5
4th = b4
5th = a4
6th = g4
7th = f4
8th = e4
9th = d4
10th = c4
11th = b3
12th = a3
13th = g3
14th = f3
15th = e3
16th = c3

The strings are retuned as from the 4th to the 15th courses according to key. 
The 16th string is sometimes retuned to D or Bb respectively, according to key, 
but more often than not stays at C. 

The characters for the first six courses are the same as in lute tablature. 
Angélique tablature has six lines and rhythm signs just like baroque lute 
tablature. The characters for the courses below the staff are as follows:

7th = a
8th = _a_ (underlined)
9th = /a
10th = //a
11th = ///a
12th = a
13th = /a
14th = 4
15th = 5
16th = 6

The 7th to 10th courses, too, are frequently fretted up to the 4th fret, so 
characters a to e are required for them. The 11th to 16th courses are not 
fretted.

One single manuscript (Schwerin 640) requires a 17th string so that one may 
have D and C at the same time. That manuscript shows the Arabic numerals 7 to 
17 for the bass courses below the staff instead of lute tablature characters.

Another exceptional source (Jakob Kremberg, 40 airs, Dresde 1689) shows the 
following characters for the bass courses below the staff:

7th = a
8th = _a_ (underlined)
9th = /a
10th = //a
11th = ///a
12th = 4
13th = 5
14th = 6
15th = 7
16th = 8

Mathias



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Alain Veylit [mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com] 
Gesendet: Samstag, 27. Mai 2017 09:29
An: Mathias Rösel
Betreff: Re: [LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature

Hi Mathias,

Sounds feasible - but my German is rusty ... what was the tuning of the 
angelique and what is the meaning of the underlined a and /a?  I would have 
jumped to the conclusion that a was equivalent to a "4" 
diapason in lute tablature, but you give 5 slashes (not 4): /a. 
Sorry for my ignorance, I hope you can help me fill up the gaps.

I have seen some facsimiles of music for the angelique, but thought it was very 
much the same as tablature for lute and did not really research that topic 
further.

Alain



On 05/26/2017 02:56 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote:
> Organ tablature was in use for any instrument and even for singers, as it is 
> a pitch notation.
>
> It may be much easier to expand lute tablature to the much desired 
> tablature for the angélique (see 
> http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/Angelique/Angelique.html 
> > Notation der Basschöre), for which not more than two additional 
> characters are required: _a_ (underlined) and /a
>
> Mathias
>
>
>
> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im 
> Auftrag von Alain Veylit
> Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Mai 2017 20:20
> An: Lute net
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature
>
> I started implementing keyboard tablature in my software Fandango, but 
> the need is so little and editing so complicated that I did not really 
> complete it fully. German Keyboard tab is like German tab in that 
> groups of notes hang from the top line, but letters indicate pitch 
> rather than fret position, using the A-H alphabetical sequence. 
> Additionally, there are two types of rhythm flags: one at the top 
> similar to lute tablature flags, and individual flags for notes within 
> a chord indicating how long that specific note is sustained. Tablature 
> was usually reserved for the left hand, while the top part was in 
> regular notation (as shown in the video). Various systems were used to 
> indicate which octave the note belonged to: A, a, a' or ''a, or lines 
> over the note. The system is logically simple but a real challenge to 
> read, particularly when you add messy hand-writing using old German 
> characters...  (Buxtehude comes to mind)
>
> I thinks is the same system was used for harp tablature - as in the ap Huw MS 
> - the main advantage being to indicate which note is played with which hand.
>
> For another mixed system notation/tablature, see modern accordion
> tablature:
> http://www.accordeondiatonique.fr/comment-lire-une-tablature-accordeon
> -diatonique/
>
> Spanish keyboard tablature was completely different if I recall... 
> using numbers corresponding to the keys on the keyboard. See 
> http://www.organ.byu.edu/Bush_Library/Bush%20Files/Buxheimer%20Orgelbu
> ch/Tablature%20notes.pdf
>
> A fascinating and very arcane subject.  I am not sure what the advantage of 
> a-h notation for the left hand may have been, but that system did survive for 
> a couple centuries...  Quicker to jot down perhaps?
>
> Alain
>
>
> On 05/26/2017 06:03 AM, keith barnhart wrote:
>>  Hello Rainer,
>>
>>  I read German lute tab but not keyboard (yet!). I am fascinated by the
>>  system for sure although it is very hard to understand. Here is a short
>>  primer video that I found which doesn't explain in full but