[LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel

[howard posner]

> On Mar 19, 2018, at 9:38 PM, Andreas Schlegel  wrote:
> 
> 
> And about Bach and continuo:
> I’m playing continuo on this instrument:
> http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/38.htm
> The instrument is tuned in e, the fingered 7th course is in C, 8th in D, 9th 
> in Eb. No need to transpose anything. No tuning change needed.

The website says "This was specifically designed to be used for the ‘lute' part 
in Bach’s St. John Passion which, as Lynda Sayce has discovered, fits mandora 
tuning perfectly.”

If only someone had told John Lenti about this, we could have avoided a lot of 
unnecessary cruelty to mandrills and budgies.



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[LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel

[howard posner]

> On Mar 19, 2018, at 8:52 PM, John Lenti  wrote:
> 
> Neither mandrill nor budgerigar accommodates the e-flat/e-natural thing.

You’re saying you’ve tried it?



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[LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel

[howard posner]

> On Mar 19, 2018, at 8:40 PM, John Lenti  wrote:
> 
> It can’t be played without alteration on gallichon or archlute or swan-neck 
> or theorbo or German theorbo or teorbe de piece or guitar or banjo or mandora 
> or bandora or mandrill or budgerigar.

Wouldn’t this depend on how you string the mandrill or budgerigar?



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[LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel

[howard posner]

I’m back at home, looking at "Bach’s Continuo Group” by Laurence Dreyfus.  
Kuhnau’s 1704 memorandum to the mayor of Leipzig asked for money to buy 
“colochonen,” Kuhnau didn’t give a number, but “colochonen” is plural.  Kuhnau 
explained that the colochon was a lute, but had a penetrating sound.  Perhaps 
the explanation was necessary because the mayor was not musically 
knowledgeable, or Kuhnau knew better than to underestimate a bureaucrat’s 
ignorance.   Martyn Hodgson directed the list in 2013 to an article that said 
the town council turned down the request; i.e., my earlier post was incorrect 
about Martyn.  Apologies.  I was unable to confirm whether any colochonen were 
purchased. 

In Das neu-eroffnetes Orchestre, Mattheson wrote that in churches and operas 
the sound of the lute was too small “and serves more to put on airs than to 
help the singer,” and the colochon was better suited to the task.  

It seems unlikely to me that the Leipzig lutenist (Hoffman?  Weyrauch?) played 
continuo on a gallichon, then picked up another, weaker-toned instrument to 
play what is essentially an arpeggiated continuo part with a bass singer and 
two violins.  But who knows?  

And of course, Bach replaced the lute obbligato in the St. John Passion with 
organ, and replaced the lute obbligato in the St. Matthew Passion with viola da 
gamba; it’s possible he decided that an obbligato on a lute of any sort was out 
of place in St. Thomas, which is a big place. 

> On Mar 19, 2018, at 12:38 PM, Howard Posner  wrote:
> 
> The only evidence available about Leipzig in the early 1700s is that the 
> mandora/gallichon was the commonly used lute continuo instrument.  Bach’s 
> predecessor as thomaschule cantor, johann kuhnau, asked the town council for 
> money to buy a couple of them so he wouldn’t have to keep borrowing them.  
> Somebody, probably mr. Hodgson, has pointed out secondary sources that say 
> the request was granted, though the sources on which they rely aren’t clear 
> on the point.  
> 
> Is anyone aware of evidence for archlutes in 18th-century Saxony?




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[LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel

[magnus andersson]

   Dear David, dear lute list,
   I completely agree that the passions seem to be for (baroque) lutes. I
   always play the passions with "liuto".
   I find the low E or E flat work smoother in the higher octave so I
   usually put it up an octave. And when playing it on
   a swan neck lute, the possibility to play the low E/E flat is no more a
   possibility :)
   The theorbo was used in Saxony - at least in Dresden- throughout the
   18th century. To say that it went out with Hasse
   would be implying that Weiss was out of continuo work in the opera upon
   Hasse ´s arrival, which isn ´t true.
   Timothy Burris has shown that surviving theorbo part books in Hasse ´s
   operas are extant between 1731 and 1749.
   After Weiss ´ death, his son continued to play the theorbo in Dresden.
   And Kropfgans was part of the orchestra in Leipzig, listed as lutenist.
   Whether he played the lute, or the theorbo, I dare not say.
   Best,
   Magnus
   On Monday, March 19, 2018, 9:43:59 PM GMT+1, David van Ooijen
    wrote:
 I always understood bwv198 to be for two
 mandora/collascione/gallicon/whateverthename/seeTelemann scores for a
 good name and comparable use, but the obligato parts in Matthew and
 John to be for b-lute. Makes sense when you look at the parts.
 David
 On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 at 21:22, Stephan Olbertz
 <[1][1]stephan.olbe...@web.de> wrote:
   Yes, so it should read
   "the part was [very probable] not conceived for archlute but rather
   [the baroque lute, or possibly even] the mandora [although we have
   no evidence for the mandora to be used as an obbligato instrument
   in
   Saxony]"
   Regards
   Stephan
   -Ursprà ¼ngliche Nachricht-
   Von: [2][2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[3][3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Howard
   Posner
   Gesendet: Montag, 19. MÃ ¤rz 2018 20:39
   Cc: [4][4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel
   The only evidence available about Leipzig in the early 1700s is
   that
   the mandora/gallichon was the commonly used lute continuo
   instrument.  Bach's predecessor as thomaschule cantor, johann
   kuhnau, asked the town council for money to buy a couple of them so
   he wouldn't have to keep borrowing them.  Somebody, probably mr.
   Hodgson, has pointed out secondary sources that say the request was
   granted, though the sources on which they rely aren't clear on the
   point.
   Is anyone aware of evidence for archlutes in 18th-century Saxony?
   Sent from my iPhone
   > On Mar 19, 2018, at 12:07, Stephan Olbertz
   <[5][5]stephan.olbe...@web.de> wrote:
   >
   > Ron,
   >
   > " the part was not conceived for
   >archlute but rather the mandora or one of its namesakes"
   >
   > Do you have any evidence for this?  (As I am sure Martyn would
   ask...)
   >
   > Regards
   > Stephan
   >
   >
   >
   > -Ursprà ¼ngliche Nachricht-
   > Von: [6][6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[7][7]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im
   > Auftrag von Ron Andrico
   > Gesendet: Montag, 19. MÃ ¤rz 2018 19:15
   > An: Eloy Cruz; [8][8]Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel
   >
   >Playing the bass along with Bach's figuration is a minor
   challenge but
   >it's entirely possible with a fingered F-sharp and E-natural.
   As I am
   >sure Martyn Hodgson will point out, the part was not conceived
   for
   >archlute but rather the mandora or one of its namesakes.  I
   understand
   >that the Italian archlute as we know it was not likely to be
   present in
   >Bach's Germany.
   >
   >RA
   >
   __
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [9][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --
 ***
 David van Ooijen
 [10][10]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
 [11]www.davidvanooijen.nl
 ***
 --
   References
 1. mailto:[11]stephan.olbe...@web.de
 2. mailto:[12]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
 3. mailto:[13]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
 4. mailto:[14]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 5. mailto:[15]stephan.olbe...@web.de
 6. mailto:[16]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
 7. mailto:[17]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
 8. mailto:[18]Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 9. [19]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 10. mailto:[20]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
 11. [21]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/

   --

References

   1. mailto:stephan.olbe...@web.de
   2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. 

[LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel

[Luke Emmet]

Actually it is not just D minor lute - there is a setting for 
Old/Renaissance lute too on the same page.


 - Luke

On 19-Mar-2018 22:06, Luke Emmet wrote:

Dear lute list

You may all be interested to know that we have recently uploaded a 
free download setting of this by Wilfred Foxe for D minor lute to The 
Lute Society's website here:


  http://www.lutesociety.org/pages/betrachte-meine-seel

Best Wishes

 - Luke

On 19-Mar-2018 14:02, Eloy Cruz wrote:

Dear list

Whenever you play this arioso from Johannes Passion, do you play the 
bass line along with the obligato part? It’s a little awkward as long 
as it includes both f and f # and e and e flat.


Best regards

eloy





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--
__

Orlando Lutes
http://www.orlando-lutes.com

[LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel

[Luke Emmet]

Dear lute list

You may all be interested to know that we have recently uploaded a free 
download setting of this by Wilfred Foxe for D minor lute to The Lute 
Society's website here:


  http://www.lutesociety.org/pages/betrachte-meine-seel

Best Wishes

 - Luke

On 19-Mar-2018 14:02, Eloy Cruz wrote:

Dear list

Whenever you play this arioso from Johannes Passion, do you play the bass line 
along with the obligato part? It’s a little awkward as long as it includes both 
f and f # and e and e flat.

Best regards

eloy





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--
__

Orlando Lutes
http://www.orlando-lutes.com

[LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel

[Markus Lutz]

It is very important to tell between the different instruments.
There are 3 to differ:
1. The colascione, which are long necked instruments with 3 often single 
strings, only used for bass
2. The galizona (gallichon), that was used as bass instrument especially 
by Telemann and played especially the bass lines, but only few chords 
(also called theorbo in some sources)
3. The mandora, which was used especially in South of Germany and 
Austria for solo and ensemble music, from 1720 on


I'm sure Andreas Schlegel can explain everything in detail.
The terminology is quite confusing, as the terms have been used 
differently in different parts of Europe.


The mandore (3.) probably wasn't used as continuo instrument.

Best regards
Markus


Am 19.03.2018 um 21:52 schrieb Ron Andrico:

Umm, I would rather not have my words rearranged.  I meant what I wrote
previously.

A quick look at the articles on archlute and on continuo in the Grove
online reinforce the accepted premise that the archlute was not known
to be present or used for continuo playing in the German states in the
18th century.

In the Grove music online article on Continuo by Peter Williams and
David Ledbetter:
"In the Dresden of Heinichen and Zelenka (c1710–30) the (Catholic)
court chapel employed a continuo group of two or more cellos, bassoons,
violoni and theorbos, though the theorbos fell out of use in the 1730s
after the arrival of Hasse."
In the Grove music online article on Mandora by James Tyler:
"A type of bass lute of the 18th century used for continuo
accompaniment and solos, particularly in Germanic regions."
...
"Contemporary references to the mandora clearly indicate that it was
commonly used for continuo, which makes a great deal of sense
considering that its pitch and the flexibility afforded by its tuning
made it ideal for playing the bass lines of the new musical styles of
the late Baroque and early Classical periods. As well as chordal
continuo accompaniments, it was also used to play single-line melodic
basses, as a bassoon or cello would."
...
"In 1709 Johann Kuhnau requested the purchase of a ‘Colocion’ for the
Thomasschule in Leipzig in order to have more effective bass support
for the singers (ibid., 73). Mattheson (op.cit., 277) highly recommends
the ‘calichon’ over the normal lute for continuo support in chamber
music, and Telemann wrote two concertos for two flutes and strings, for
which the bass lines are marked for ‘Calchedon’ or bassoon."
RA
  __

From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
of Stephan Olbertz 
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 8:20 PM
To: 'lute@cs.dartmouth.edu'
Cc: 'lute@cs.dartmouth.edu'
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel

Yes, so it should read
"the part was [very probable] not conceived for archlute but rather
[the baroque lute, or possibly even] the mandora [although we have no
evidence for the mandora to be used as an obbligato instrument in
Saxony]"
Regards
Stephan
-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[1]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im
Auftrag von Howard Posner
Gesendet: Montag, 19. März 2018 20:39
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel
The only evidence available about Leipzig in the early 1700s is that
the mandora/gallichon was the commonly used lute continuo instrument.
Bach’s predecessor as thomaschule cantor, johann kuhnau, asked the town
council for money to buy a couple of them so he wouldn’t have to keep
borrowing them.  Somebody, probably mr. Hodgson, has pointed out
secondary sources that say the request was granted, though the sources
on which they rely aren’t clear on the point.
Is anyone aware of evidence for archlutes in 18th-century Saxony?
Sent from my iPhone
> On Mar 19, 2018, at 12:07, Stephan Olbertz 
wrote:
>
> Ron,
>
> " the part was not conceived for
>   archlute but rather the mandora or one of its namesakes"
>
> Do you have any evidence for this?  (As I am sure Martyn would
ask...)
>
> Regards
> Stephan
>
>
>
> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[2]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
Im
> Auftrag von Ron Andrico
> Gesendet: Montag, 19. März 2018 19:15
> An: Eloy Cruz; Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel
>
>   Playing the bass along with Bach's figuration is a minor challenge
but
>   it's entirely possible with a fingered F-sharp and E-natural.  As I
am
>   sure Martyn Hodgson will point out, the part was not conceived for
>   archlute but rather the mandora or 

[LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel

[David van Ooijen]

   I always understood bwv198 to be for two
   mandora/collascione/gallicon/whateverthename/seeTelemann scores for a
   good name and comparable use, but the obligato parts in Matthew and
   John to be for b-lute. Makes sense when you look at the parts.
   David
   On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 at 21:22, Stephan Olbertz
   <[1]stephan.olbe...@web.de> wrote:

 Yes, so it should read
 "the part was [very probable] not conceived for archlute but rather
 [the baroque lute, or possibly even] the mandora [although we have
 no evidence for the mandora to be used as an obbligato instrument in
 Saxony]"
 Regards
 Stephan
 -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
 Von: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
 [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Howard Posner
 Gesendet: Montag, 19. März 2018 20:39
 Cc: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel
 The only evidence available about Leipzig in the early 1700s is that
 the mandora/gallichon was the commonly used lute continuo
 instrument.   Bach's predecessor as thomaschule cantor, johann
 kuhnau, asked the town council for money to buy a couple of them so
 he wouldn't have to keep borrowing them.   Somebody, probably mr.
 Hodgson, has pointed out secondary sources that say the request was
 granted, though the sources on which they rely aren't clear on the
 point.
 Is anyone aware of evidence for archlutes in 18th-century Saxony?
 Sent from my iPhone
 > On Mar 19, 2018, at 12:07, Stephan Olbertz
 <[5]stephan.olbe...@web.de> wrote:
 >
 > Ron,
 >
 > " the part was not conceived for
 >archlute but rather the mandora or one of its namesakes"
 >
 > Do you have any evidence for this?   (As I am sure Martyn would
 ask...)
 >
 > Regards
 > Stephan
 >
 >
 >
 > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
 > Von: [6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
 [mailto:[7]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im
 > Auftrag von Ron Andrico
 > Gesendet: Montag, 19. März 2018 19:15
 > An: Eloy Cruz; [8]Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel
 >
 >Playing the bass along with Bach's figuration is a minor
 challenge but
 >it's entirely possible with a fingered F-sharp and E-natural.
 As I am
 >sure Martyn Hodgson will point out, the part was not conceived
 for
 >archlute but rather the mandora or one of its namesakes.   I
 understand
 >that the Italian archlute as we know it was not likely to be
 present in
 >Bach's Germany.
 >
 >RA
 >
 __
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [10]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   [11]www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***

   --

References

   1. mailto:stephan.olbe...@web.de
   2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   5. mailto:stephan.olbe...@web.de
   6. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   7. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   8. mailto:Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  10. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
  11. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/

[LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel

[Stephan Olbertz]

Yes, so it should read
"the part was [very probable] not conceived for archlute but rather [the 
baroque lute, or possibly even] the mandora [although we have no evidence for 
the mandora to be used as an obbligato instrument in Saxony]"

Regards
Stephan

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag 
von Howard Posner
Gesendet: Montag, 19. März 2018 20:39
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel

The only evidence available about Leipzig in the early 1700s is that the 
mandora/gallichon was the commonly used lute continuo instrument.  Bach’s 
predecessor as thomaschule cantor, johann kuhnau, asked the town council for 
money to buy a couple of them so he wouldn’t have to keep borrowing them.  
Somebody, probably mr. Hodgson, has pointed out secondary sources that say the 
request was granted, though the sources on which they rely aren’t clear on the 
point.  

Is anyone aware of evidence for archlutes in 18th-century Saxony?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 19, 2018, at 12:07, Stephan Olbertz  wrote:
> 
> Ron,
> 
> " the part was not conceived for
>   archlute but rather the mandora or one of its namesakes"
> 
> Do you have any evidence for this?  (As I am sure Martyn would ask...)
> 
> Regards
> Stephan
> 
> 
> 
> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im 
> Auftrag von Ron Andrico
> Gesendet: Montag, 19. März 2018 19:15
> An: Eloy Cruz; Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel
> 
>   Playing the bass along with Bach's figuration is a minor challenge but
>   it's entirely possible with a fingered F-sharp and E-natural.  As I am
>   sure Martyn Hodgson will point out, the part was not conceived for
>   archlute but rather the mandora or one of its namesakes.  I understand
>   that the Italian archlute as we know it was not likely to be present in
>   Bach's Germany.
> 
>   RA
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 




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[LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel

[Howard Posner]

The only evidence available about Leipzig in the early 1700s is that the 
mandora/gallichon was the commonly used lute continuo instrument.  Bach’s 
predecessor as thomaschule cantor, johann kuhnau, asked the town council for 
money to buy a couple of them so he wouldn’t have to keep borrowing them.  
Somebody, probably mr. Hodgson, has pointed out secondary sources that say the 
request was granted, though the sources on which they rely aren’t clear on the 
point.  

Is anyone aware of evidence for archlutes in 18th-century Saxony?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 19, 2018, at 12:07, Stephan Olbertz  wrote:
> 
> Ron,
> 
> " the part was not conceived for
>   archlute but rather the mandora or one of its namesakes"
> 
> Do you have any evidence for this?  (As I am sure Martyn would ask...)
> 
> Regards
> Stephan
> 
> 
> 
> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag 
> von Ron Andrico
> Gesendet: Montag, 19. März 2018 19:15
> An: Eloy Cruz; Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel
> 
>   Playing the bass along with Bach's figuration is a minor challenge but
>   it's entirely possible with a fingered F-sharp and E-natural.  As I am
>   sure Martyn Hodgson will point out, the part was not conceived for
>   archlute but rather the mandora or one of its namesakes.  I understand
>   that the Italian archlute as we know it was not likely to be present in
>   Bach's Germany.
> 
>   RA
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 




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[LUTE] Lute mail list down tuesday

[Wayne]

Hi Lute People -

 The lute mail list, "lutes for sale", my tablature web site, and the popular 
pages about WanderVogel lutes will be down early Tuesday morning while the 
engineers work on the electricity that goes to the building.  Should take an 
hour.

 Wayne




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[LUTE] Goffriller Lute

[Edward Martin]

   Dear ones,
   You may recall that I posted questions about a Goffriller lute, and I
   want to thank all those who responded.I heard back from Nico van
   der Waals via Sigrun Richter; Nico states that around the year 1980, he
   restored the lute in the possession of Nicolaus Harnoncourt, and it was
   a small 6-course lute labeled by Matteo Goffriller, made in 1700 in
   Venzia, and that the shell was of kingwood.
   I thought I would share this to those interested parties.
   Best,
   Ed Martin

   --


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[LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel

[Stephan Olbertz]

Ron,

" the part was not conceived for
   archlute but rather the mandora or one of its namesakes"

Do you have any evidence for this?  (As I am sure Martyn would ask...)

Regards
Stephan



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag 
von Ron Andrico
Gesendet: Montag, 19. März 2018 19:15
An: Eloy Cruz; Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel

   Playing the bass along with Bach's figuration is a minor challenge but
   it's entirely possible with a fingered F-sharp and E-natural.  As I am
   sure Martyn Hodgson will point out, the part was not conceived for
   archlute but rather the mandora or one of its namesakes.  I understand
   that the Italian archlute as we know it was not likely to be present in
   Bach's Germany.

   RA
 __

   From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
   of Eloy Cruz 
   Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 2:02 PM
   To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Subject: [LUTE] Betrachte meine Seel

   Dear list
   Whenever you play this arioso from Johannes Passion, do you play the
   bass line along with the obligato part? It’s a little awkward as long
   as it includes both f and f # and e and e flat.
   Best regards
   eloy
   To get on or off this list see list information at
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[LUTE] Re: CLFBoc, n° 13

[Rainer]

What is GB(-?)18940-1-3-4 ?

Rainer

On 19.03.2018 17:50, Petrus Paulus Maria Steur wrote:

Dear All,
there seem to be two persons with a CLFBoc: CLFBocI (also simply
CLFBoc) and CLFBocII and both have a n °13.
From the concordances the first would be the earlier (renaissance) one
while the other the baroque chap.
For the first I have (at the moment):
PL-Kj40641 / 7v - GB-LblA38539 / 21r - Besard1603 / 128v - CZ-PnmIVG18
/ 29v - GB-HAB1 / 76v - GB-HAB1 / 253v - Vallet1615 / 78 -
GB(-?)18940-1-3-4 / 1v
while for the second there are the concordances already given by Markus
Lutz.
Peter

Mail priva di virus. [1]www.avg.com

2018-03-19 14:59 GMT+01:00 Markus Lutz <[2]mar...@gmlutz.de>:

  There is a concordance for baroque lute in Goess:
  1. A-ETgoëssI / 93v| 2. F-Pn6214 / 17v
  Best regards
  Markus
  Am 19.03.2018 um 14:50 schrieb Lex van Sante:

  Sorry, forgot to mention: no concordances for nr. 13 for baroque
  lute.
  Lex

  Op 19 mrt. 2018, om 14:48 heeft Lex van Sante
  <[3]lvansa...@gmail.com> het volgende geschreven:
  Hey Rainer,
  there are 2 numbers 13
  for renaissance lute:
  Gaillarde from Besard 1603 VI f. 128 Conc. Pra. IV G 18 f. 29'30
  "Gaillarde S. N."
  for baroque lute:
  Courante (avec) Double Vm7 6214, f.17'-18'
  If you are greedy I could scan and pm.
  Cheers
  Lex

  Op 19 mrt. 2018, om 14:32 heeft Rainer
  <[4]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de > het volgende geschreven:
  Dear lute netters,
  can anybody (an owner of the cnrs edition of Bocquet) tell me what
  CLFBoc, n ° 13
  is? With concordances if possible...
  Best wishes,
  Rainer
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  <[7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html>

  --

  --
  Markus Lutz
  SchulstraÃe 11
  88422 Bad Buchau
  Tel   0 75 82 / 92 62 89
  Fax   0 75 82 / 92 62 90
  Mail [8]mar...@gmlutz.de

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[LUTE] Re: CLFBoc, n° 13

[Petrus Paulus Maria Steur]

   Dear All,
   there seem to be two persons with a CLFBoc: CLFBocI (also simply
   CLFBoc) and CLFBocII and both have a n °13.
   From the concordances the first would be the earlier (renaissance) one
   while the other the baroque chap.
   For the first I have (at the moment):
   PL-Kj40641 / 7v - GB-LblA38539 / 21r - Besard1603 / 128v - CZ-PnmIVG18
   / 29v - GB-HAB1 / 76v - GB-HAB1 / 253v - Vallet1615 / 78 -
   GB(-?)18940-1-3-4 / 1v
   while for the second there are the concordances already given by Markus
   Lutz.
   Peter

   Mail priva di virus. [1]www.avg.com

   2018-03-19 14:59 GMT+01:00 Markus Lutz <[2]mar...@gmlutz.de>:

 There is a concordance for baroque lute in Goess:
 1. A-ETgoëssI / 93v| 2. F-Pn6214 / 17v
 Best regards
 Markus
 Am 19.03.2018 um 14:50 schrieb Lex van Sante:

 Sorry, forgot to mention: no concordances for nr. 13 for baroque
 lute.
 Lex

 Op 19 mrt. 2018, om 14:48 heeft Lex van Sante
 <[3]lvansa...@gmail.com> het volgende geschreven:
 Hey Rainer,
 there are 2 numbers 13
 for renaissance lute:
 Gaillarde from Besard 1603 VI f. 128 Conc. Pra. IV G 18 f. 29'30
 "Gaillarde S. N."
 for baroque lute:
 Courante (avec) Double Vm7 6214, f.17'-18'
 If you are greedy I could scan and pm.
 Cheers
 Lex

 Op 19 mrt. 2018, om 14:32 heeft Rainer
 <[4]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de > het volgende geschreven:
 Dear lute netters,
 can anybody (an owner of the cnrs edition of Bocquet) tell me what
 CLFBoc, n ° 13
 is? With concordances if possible...
 Best wishes,
 Rainer
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 <[7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html>

 --

 --
 Markus Lutz
 SchulstraÃe 11
 88422 Bad Buchau
 Tel   0 75 82 / 92 62 89
 Fax   0 75 82 / 92 62 90
 Mail [8]mar...@gmlutz.de

   --

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[LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel

[Dan Winheld]

David--
Very glad to hear that you also have both E and E-flat diapasons. I 
ended up going to this arrangement myself within a month or two after 
getting my own archlute. Far too many occasions either calling for 
instant retuning, (or even both notes in the same piece)- and then you 
have to take the lute part of your archthing off your lap and go for a 
hike to the upper pegbox! (Long walk up there- do the tuning, rest a 
spell at the summit, then climb down carefully- "OK everyone, we can go 
on to the 2nd movement now!"). Very happy to sacrifice the very low FF; 
my small, solo oriented archlute can't quite growl out that low note 
anyway. The thumb, however, does require some extra care and training! 
Accidents can happen.

Dan


On 3/19/2018 7:12 AM, David van Ooijen wrote:

I do play the bass line along, it's in the part after all. I used to do
it on an archlute with F tuned to E (fingered), and E tuned to Eb
(dispasson), but for many years now I have my archlutes with an E and
Eb diapasson. Comes in handy for a lot of other continuo lines as well,
not only in the St John.
David
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 at 15:08, Eloy Cruz <[1]eloyc...@gmail.com> wrote:

  Dear list
  Whenever you play this arioso from Johannes Passion, do you play the
  bass line along with the obligato part? It's a little awkward as
  long as it includes both f and f # and e and e flat.
  Best regards
  eloy
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

***
David van Ooijen
[3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
[4]www.davidvanooijen.nl
***

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4. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/

[LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel

[David van Ooijen]

   I do play the bass line along, it's in the part after all. I used to do
   it on an archlute with F tuned to E (fingered), and E tuned to Eb
   (dispasson), but for many years now I have my archlutes with an E and
   Eb diapasson. Comes in handy for a lot of other continuo lines as well,
   not only in the St John.
   David
   On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 at 15:08, Eloy Cruz <[1]eloyc...@gmail.com> wrote:

 Dear list
 Whenever you play this arioso from Johannes Passion, do you play the
 bass line along with the obligato part? It's a little awkward as
 long as it includes both f and f # and e and e flat.
 Best regards
 eloy
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   [4]www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***

   --

References

   1. mailto:eloyc...@gmail.com
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   3. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   4. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/

[LUTE] Betrachte meine Seel

[Eloy Cruz]

Dear list

Whenever you play this arioso from Johannes Passion, do you play the bass line 
along with the obligato part? It’s a little awkward as long as it includes both 
f and f # and e and e flat.

Best regards 

eloy





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: CLFBoc, n° 13

[Markus Lutz]

There is a concordance for baroque lute in Goess:
1. A-ETgoëssI / 93v   | 2. F-Pn6214 / 17v

Best regards
Markus

Am 19.03.2018 um 14:50 schrieb Lex van Sante:


Sorry, forgot to mention: no concordances for nr. 13 for baroque lute.

Lex

Op 19 mrt. 2018, om 14:48 heeft Lex van Sante  het 
volgende geschreven:

Hey Rainer,

there are 2 numbers 13
for renaissance lute:
Gaillarde from Besard 1603 VI f. 128 Conc. Pra. IV G 18 f. 29’30 ”Gaillarde S. 
N."
for baroque lute:
Courante (avec) Double Vm7 6214, f.17’-18'

If you are greedy I could scan and pm.

Cheers

Lex





Op 19 mrt. 2018, om 14:32 heeft Rainer > het volgende geschreven:

Dear lute netters,

can anybody (an owner of the cnrs edition of Bocquet) tell me what

CLFBoc, n° 13

is? With concordances if possible...


Best wishes,

Rainer



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 






--




--

Markus Lutz
Schulstraße 11

88422 Bad Buchau

Tel  0 75 82 / 92 62 89
Fax  0 75 82 / 92 62 90
Mail mar...@gmlutz.de

[LUTE] Re: Some questions

[Gilbert Isbin]

   Thanks for your answer Daniel
   Indeed when I toured in California with bassplayer Scott Walton (USA)
   in some conservatories - in one of them we did a workshop on
   improvisation-, galleries, and other places I got the feeling that
   there was more openess. We even played in a jazzclub. But before anyone
   get the impression that I see myself as a misunderstood, mistreated
   composer or lutenist I should point out that a lot of my works have
   been published by the UK Lute Society and that my book The Improvising
   Lutenist will be published next year by Mel Bay and quite some of my
   compositions have been performed by wonderful players.

   âI will just continue to compose and perform. I love the instrument too
   much. â

   2018-03-18 18:38 GMT+01:00 Daniel Shoskes <[1]kidneykut...@gmail.com>:

   Well, people will sometimes hear a dog whistle that's only audible to
   them.
   Allow me to touch on a couple of your original points that I don't
   think have been discussed. You asked why lutenists who try to do
   something else with the instrument are looked down on. Presumably by
   something else you meant play new works or transcripted modern pieces?
   Have you found this to be the case? Maybe when I was new to the lute
   world 15 years ago I heard some grumblings about Ronn McFarlane only
   playing his own music but it certainly hasn't been an ongoing theme.
   Needless to say Ronn's superb musicianship and talent with early music,
   his own compositions and with his group Ayreheart have proven
   artistically and commercially successful. Chris Wilke plays jazz on his
   instruments and that doesn't make him any less respected as a continuo
   player. Is this more of an issue outside the US?

   You brought up recorder players as a group more open to new music. I
   think it is interesting to look at the recorder and viol societies,
   again at least in the US. These are very driven by a committed group of
   amateurs and enthusiasts, I think to an even greater degree than in the
   lute world currently. Where new compositions can fill a niche in those
   communities is often with easier pieces for students. Indeed you have
   composed sets of easy pieces for Ren lute and Roman has composed many
   works for baroque lute that are technically less demanding than Mouton
   or Weiss, are fantastic resources, and do open the ear of beginning
   players to music beyond the original composers.
   In any case, I applaud your commitment to the instrument, to
   encouraging the art of improvisation and to extending the sonic
   possibilities. FWIW, each of my 3 CD's has an original composition on
   it, one of which was a commission.
   Danny
   > On Mar 18, 2018, at 11:45 AM, Gilbert Isbin
   <[2]gilbert.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
   >
   >Very strange that the original subject of Some Questions is
   evolving
   >into a totally different subject.
   >
   >With kind regards,
   >
   >Met vriendelijke groeten,
   >
   >Bien cordialement,
   >Gilbert Isbin
   >[1][3]www.gilbertisbin.com
   >[2][4]gilbert.is...@gmail.com
   >2018-03-18 16:41 GMT+01:00 Dan Winheld <[3][5]dwinh...@lmi.net>:
   >
   >

 To get on or off this list see list information at
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   2. mailto:gilbert.is...@gmail.com
   3. http://www.gilbertisbin.com/
   4. mailto:gilbert.is...@gmail.com
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   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: CLFBoc, n° 13

[Lex van Sante]

Sorry, forgot to mention: no concordances for nr. 13 for baroque lute.

Lex
> Op 19 mrt. 2018, om 14:48 heeft Lex van Sante  het 
> volgende geschreven:
> 
> Hey Rainer,
> 
> there are 2 numbers 13 
> for renaissance lute:
> Gaillarde from Besard 1603 VI f. 128 Conc. Pra. IV G 18 f. 29’30 
> ”Gaillarde S. N."
> for baroque lute:
> Courante (avec) Double Vm7 6214, f.17’-18'
> 
> If you are greedy I could scan and pm.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Lex
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> Op 19 mrt. 2018, om 14:32 heeft Rainer > > het volgende geschreven:
>> 
>> Dear lute netters,
>> 
>> can anybody (an owner of the cnrs edition of Bocquet) tell me what
>> 
>>  CLFBoc, n° 13
>> 
>> is? With concordances if possible...
>> 
>> 
>> Best wishes,
>> 
>> Rainer
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 
>> 
> 


--

[LUTE] Re: CLFBoc, n° 13

[Lex van Sante]

Hey Rainer,

there are 2 numbers 13 
for renaissance lute:
Gaillarde from Besard 1603 VI f. 128 Conc. Pra. IV G 18 f. 29’30 ”Gaillarde 
S. N."
for baroque lute:
Courante (avec) Double Vm7 6214, f.17’-18'

If you are greedy I could scan and pm.

Cheers

Lex




> Op 19 mrt. 2018, om 14:32 heeft Rainer  het 
> volgende geschreven:
> 
> Dear lute netters,
> 
> can anybody (an owner of the cnrs edition of Bocquet) tell me what
> 
>   CLFBoc, n° 13
> 
> is? With concordances if possible...
> 
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Rainer
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--

[LUTE] CLFBoc, n° 13

[Rainer]

Dear lute netters,

can anybody (an owner of the cnrs edition of Bocquet) tell me what

CLFBoc, n° 13

is? With concordances if possible...


Best wishes,

Rainer



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html